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U.S. Military Vision for the Fight Against ISIS; Netanyahu Set to Address to Congress; Violence Continue in Ukraine as World Leaders Seek Peace; Chasing A Killer in the McStay Family Murders

Aired February 10, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think it's a very smart approach to applying the elements of national power, Carol. This has been one of those centuries so far where the military has appeared to be the solution to every problem. And I think, even from my own experience in Iraq, while the military was winning the tactical and the operational fight, there were discouraging events occurring in the diplomatic fight. The government of Iraq would not come around.

You have these failed states all over the place. And if you continue to place military personnel there to just try and find a force solution, it's not going to happen. You need a government that provides for the security and the well-being of their people. And in most of the areas of the world where we are right now with military forces, it's because of either failed states or horrible dictators, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I think the American people don't have much patience, right, Bobby? So when, you know, the general explains it, and I get it, and you get it, and David gets it, but I'm not sure that -- and I'm sure the American people would get it, but they're not very patient. They want things handled now. They want the ISIS threat wiped out now. And in their minds, the way you do that is you flood an area with American troops and they get the job done.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's a -- there are two different -- there are two different arguments here. On the one hand, yes, we'd all like to see the end of ISIS. The president has promised to degrade and destroy it. On the other hand, the same American people who want that do not necessarily want American boots on the ground, do not want the cost -- to incur the cost in blood and treasure that it would take to do that. We'd rather be -- we'd rather see a coalition, we'd rather see Arab countries take more responsible, because, after all, they are in the front lines of the war with ISIS. They are the ones who are paying the largest price. And we'd like to help from the air through a bombing campaign, through training, through intelligence, through supplying of equipment and weapons, but we don't want to see American boots on the ground. We don't, once again, want to see American soldiers dying in a foreign land.

And so the president has to grapple with these very conflicting signals that he's getting, and I suspect he's feeling himself. I mean all of his actions over the last two or three years have suggested that he has -- he does not want to commit American troops to any kind of foreign military adventure. And that's not a -- it's not hard to see why.

COSTELLO: Right.

But, David, when the president starts, you know, they're going to debate this in Congress, right?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

COSTELLO: So there are hawks in Congress, right, who says, like John McCain, you have to go all out. And there are Democrats in Congress who say, we don't want a repeat of the Iraq War. We don't want to happen in 2002 what happened again. So how do you reconcile that, those two lines of thinking?

GERGEN: Well, listen, it's a false choice to say either we have to go all the way in with American boots on the ground or we have to stay all the way out. I think Bobby was pointing us towards a middle way, which would be very constructive, and that is for the United States to take the lead in putting together a coalition of nations that really are willing to fight on the ground, that live in the neighborhood and that we provide the air support and the logistics and the intelligence to make that helpful. We may have to put a few more special forces on the ground, but it would not flood the zone. Rather, we would leave it to the neighbors and -- you can put together a coalition presumably, and I think there's a lot of interest in this in the Gulf area, of the Saudis, of the Jordanians, of the Emirates, which have now re-engaged in the fight. They're flying again. The Jordanians clearly want to go in and go out -- go all out. Turkey might be willing to come in with a certain (INAUDIBLE) with a coalition.

But let's put -- let's do something. Let's not just sit here and dither saying, well, we can't go all the way in but we have to stay all the way out, you know. We need a strategy. A strategy that's actually going to do what the president vowed he would do and live up to that pledge. That's what the United -- that's what other countries, traditionally, when the president of the United States goes on national television and declares in effect a war, they expect action and a plan to win.

COSTELLO: So why doesn't the president come up with a better way to explain it to the American people, you think? Anyone?

GERGEN: I'm not sure where that's going, but --

COSTELLO: No, I mean -- I mean, I heard what the president said on Vox (ph) and I understand what he's saying, but I don't think that he's communicating well with the American public.

GERGEN: I -- listen, I -- the president's interview on Vox, it was interesting, but it's a gush of words. And it's hard to sort of come out of that -- I understand his impulses. He doesn't want to use force. I think the American people totally support him on that. He doesn't want to put a lot of boots on the ground. American people are very much in his corner on that. But they -- in that gush of words, it's hard to find a plan.

COSTELLO: Right. And that's what -- yes, that's what I came away with myself.

So, general, I suppose the best thing that could happen is if a country like Jordan maybe would decide to use ground troops to fight ISIS in either Syria or Iraq, right?

HERTLING: Well, we saw earlier last week, Carol, several other Arab countries seemingly wanting to get deep -- more deeper -- deeply involved. Jordan being one of them. UAE's back into the fight. But I'd suggest that, in fact, the president has been attempting to do all the things that David just mentioned. He has General Allen circling the world trying to figure out who will join this coalition willingly and provide forces. He has had Secretary Kerry all over the globe trying to do the same thing. And, you know, as an amateur student of history, I know that all insurgencies, which this is, ISIS is a very complex insurgency, last an average of 14 years before they are defeated and that's with the means of a good government taking over.

That good government, with Mr. Abadi in Iraq, is just getting beginning to get its feet under them. The government in Syria is awful right now. So that's going to be a long time coming. We've seen what's going on in Yemen and other places where the government is faltering. And until you get the governments to stand up and contribute to this kind of threat, no matter how many so-called boots on the ground you have, and for those of us who have been the boots on the ground, it's very difficult to continue to fight without the support of a government where you're fighting. So that's the difficulty, and I think that was what the president was trying to say in the Vox interview when he claimed that he was somewhere between being an idealist and a realist. He was picking the middle ground. And I think the strategy actually has come through loud and clear to those who are listening.

COSTELLO: All right, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, bobby Ghosh, David Gergen, thanks to all of you. I appreciate it.

Still to come, the boycott grows. Will Benjamin Netanyahu stick with his plans to address Congress next month? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu insists that he is moving forward with his controversial Iran focused speech on Capitol Hill next month. But sources tell CNN that some changes might be in the works, including potentially moving his speech out of the House chamber. Debate over that speech started heating up last month after House Speaker John Boehner invited the Israeli leader to speak in Washington without consulting with the White House. More than a dozen congressional Democrats have already vowed to boycott Netanyahu's speech, arguing his message could jeopardize talks over Iran's nuclear program, which are approaching a critical deadline. Others say the timing, two weeks before the election in Israel, is inappropriate.

CNN's Alexandra Jaffe joins me now with more from Washington. So, how many Democrats say they'll boycott Netanyahu's speech?

ALEXANDRA JAFFE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're hearing an increasing number of Democrats. I think there's about a dozen right now. And the first senator, a Democratic senator, came out to say that he wouldn't attend. That was Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Now, he's an independent but he caucuses with Democrats. And that may turn it into more of a political issue than it already has been.

But yesterday we also heard from President Obama at his press conference address this situation and he emphasized that while relations with Israel remain strong, he does have a difference of opinion with Netanyahu over Iran. And he asked, why now?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The prime minister and I have a very real difference around Iran, Iran sanctions. It does not make sense to sour the negotiations a month or two before they're about to be completed. What's the rush?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAFFE: Now that's long been his answer, but we'll see if there's any movement of the speech. It doesn't look like they're going to delay.

COSTELLO: So if Netanyahu's speech is moved from the -- from the -- you know, from Capitol Hill, where would he speak?

JAFFE: See, that's the question. And, you know, at the end of the day, how much of a difference would that make? He's not necessarily on Obama's home turf, but he's still addressing Congress, addressing Congress without, you know, running it past the president. So we're, you know, not expecting there to be a movement out of the House chamber at this point.

COSTELLO: All right. Alexandra Jaffe, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, on the eve of potential Ukrainian peace talks, the Kremlin reportedly offers a stern warning to world leaders, do not put Mr. Putin in a corner. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Europe's bloodiest war in decades continues to spiral out of control on the eve of a potential crunch meeting between world leaders who are hoping to broker peace in eastern Ukraine. But despite all the efforts to date, the deadly battle rages on.

Look at the video capturing a rocket attack on a soup kitchen. You can hear the glass shattering and tears and the sheer terror of what it's like to live in a war zone.

CNN's senior international correspondents join me now with more on this and on Russia's reaction to talks with Germany and France and kind of the United States. Frederik Pleitgen is live in Kiev. Matthew Chance, live in Moscow. I'll start with you, Frederik. What's the latest from the ground in Ukraine? FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly,

you're absolutely right, Carol, that the battle here certainly goes on unabated. One of the big incidents that happened today is that a major headquarters of the Ukrainian military was shelled. So far, the casualty numbers that we have is that 7 people were killed, 16 apparently were wounded. We have heard from the Ukrainian military and from Ukrainian security officials that apparently one military officer is also among those killed and 10 military personnel could be among those who were wounded. They say that the rockets that hit this area hit both civilian area, as well as this main military base, and certainly did cause a lot of carnage.

For the Ukrainians, for their part, it appears as though they also have offensive operations going on down in the southeast of the country, near Mariupol, where they're trying to win back land. So it appears as though, Carol, as these peace talks or these cease-fire talks inch closer that both sides are still trying to create facts on the battlefield. Because of course, one of the things, for instance, the government here in Kiev is hoping for is for a cease-fire to take place very, very soon and to freeze the conflict in its current state. Of course, there are still many, many questions that remain there. How much territory would the separatists de facto be able to keep? Would all heavy weapons have to leave the area? Will there be a demilitarized zone? So there are still many, many questions. But certainly, the weapons speaking today, once again, on the battlefield in eastern Ukraine, Carol.

COSTELLO: And of course, the question many lawmakers are asking here in the United States is will President Obama agree to arm the Ukrainian military? There's a complication to that, right, Frederik? Because apparently there are Russian spies within the Ukrainian military?

PLEITGEN: Well, that certainly could be one of the complications, Carol, is what kind of military are you actually giving these weapons to? The Ukrainians, for their part, certainly are saying they need these weapons. They feel that they're not only out gunned on the battlefield, but that the pro-Russian separatists have better technology. However, they also acknowledge that they have a big problem with infiltration of their military by what they call "pro- Russian spies."

They say this goes as high as their own general command, that there's people there who have given information to Russia. They say it includes everything from troop movement to the kind of military hardware that is on the front lines there in eastern Ukraine all the way to detailed battle positions. For instance, checkpoints that have been given to the pro Russian separatists, as well as to Russia itself, carol.

COSTELLO: Let's talk about Russia and let's go to Matthew Chance. So, there's a rumor going around that Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, will give an ultimatum to Vladimir Putin and that has not made him happy. In fact, the Kremlin spoke out on Russian radio saying, oh, no, you don't give Mr. Putin ultimatums. Can you expand on that for us, Matthew? MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean,

the report was that Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, basically said to Vladimir Putin during negotiations in Moscow last week, you know, look, unless we find a compromise and a deal at the negotiations that we're going to attend in Belarus on Wednesday, I'm not going to be able to hold the United States back from supplying weapons to the Ukrainian government, and I'm not going to be able to prevent more stinging sanctions being implemented both by the U.S. and the European Union.

What we had from the Kremlin's press secretary, Dmitry Peskov, is word that, you know, a denial, essentially, that any such language was used. Playing down this idea that this kind of discussion was an ultimatum. He said something along the lines of, and I'm paraphrasing him here, you know, you don't speak to the president of Russia in that tone. Nobody does. And so it was also a kind of veiled threat or a warning as to what tone the negotiations on Wednesday in Minsk, the capital of Belarus, should take if these leaders of France and Germany and Ukraine, as well, that are going to be attending along with Vladimir Putin, want him to respond positively, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Frederik Pleitgen and Matthew Chance, thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a young family missing for years found murdered in the desert. What their accused killer is saying next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: It's a mystery that gripped the nation. Five years ago, a family of four disappeared from their home in San Diego, California. Four years later, their remains were found in two shallow graves in the Mojave Desert. Randi Kaye has been following the case for years. She spoke exclusively to the man now accused of those murders.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four murder charges against Charles Ray Merritt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now the police are calling him a cold-blooded and callous killer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For killing a California family, burying their bodies in the Mojave Desert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) crimes to be eligible for the death penalty.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): November 12th, 2014, Chase Merritt's first day in court. The first time he responds to the charges against him. Not guilty. Not surprising, given what he told us a year earlier.

In your gut, what do you think happened?

CHASE MERRITT, ACCUSED OF KILLING THE MCSTAYS: I have absolutely no clue.

KAYE (voiceover): Words that Patrick McStay trusted for so long.

PATRICK MCSTAY, FATHER OF JOSEPH MCSTAY: I trusted him because my son believed in him.

KAYE (voiceover): Now he sees a very different Chase Merritt.

MCSTAY: To me, it looked like a broken man. He knew he was done.

MICHAEL RAMOS, SAN BERNARDINO DISTRICT ATTORNEY: When the jury hears the evidence and we put this all together for them, they will find him guilty.

KAYE (voiceover): But could the case be that solid and could one man have done it all?

RAMOS: He's the only person, the only suspect in this murder case.

GINA WATSON, JOSEPH MCSTAY'S BUSINESS ASSOCIATE: I was honestly a bit shocked, especially that it was one person alone.

MCSTAY: I don't believe that.

KAYE: Why not?

MCSTAY: There's just too much there.

KAYE: Could one person kill a family of four, bury the bodies a hundred miles north in the Mojave Desert, drop the car 250 miles south at the Mexico border? Could one person do all that and then return home to make it look like he was home that night to receive a phone call from Joseph McStay?

RAMOS: Yes. We have the evidence to prove that. Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Randi Kaye joins me now to talk about this. It seems like it's a clear-cut case, but is it?

KAYE: Well, the DA certainly hopes so. But really, the question comes down to what happened at the house? Because the DA says that they were killed at the house, all four of them. So the San Diego authorities weren't alerted that the family was missing until 11 days after they were missing, and they didn't even get search warrants for another three days after that. The house sat unlocked and anybody could go inside. So family members went inside.

Joseph McStay's brother, Michael McStay, went in with Chase Merritt, now the suspect in the killing. They went in together. Michael McStay told us he took a computer, a laptop, and a video card from the camera. Joseph McStay's mother went in. She told us that she cleaned the counters, put away eggs, threw out dirty diapers. So who knows what went on in that house and what really would have happened with some of the evidence. Plus, Chase Merritt says he was at the house. Now, he's the main suspect, the only suspect. What did he do if they were killed at the house? Was there blood splatter? Did he spend days cleaning it up? That's what the DA is trying to figure out.

COSTELLO: So Mr. Merritt is representing himself, which is kind of interesting.

KAYE: It is. I mean, at first it wasn't like that, but then just recently he decided he wanted to represent himself. He says that he has congestive heart failure. He believes he has six to eight months to live, maybe at the most. He wants to get out of jail, he wants to get through this trial, if it does come to that, and he doesn't think he has a lot of time left so he decided to take it on himself.

COSTELLO: Randi Kaye, thanks so much for being with me. I appreciate it. You can catch Randi's entire documentary "CHASING A KILLER: INSIDE THE MCSTAY FAMILY MURDERS." That's tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, on CNN.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)