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Dr. Drew
Embattled NBC News Anchor Brian Williams Suspended for Six Months Without Pay; Bobbi Kristina`s Family Might Suspend Life Support On Anniversary of Whitney Houston`s Death; Roswell Police Chief Confirms Criminal Investigation into Bobbi Kristina Incident; 16-Year-Old Allegedly Shoots His Friend, Then Sends Selfie Via Snapchat, Dead Body in the Background
Aired February 10, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Good evening. We begin with breaking news. Embattled NBC News anchor, Brian Williams, has been suspended now for six
months without pay. He was the focus of an inquiry at NBC for misrepresenting his experience during the war in Iraq.
Joining me now to discuss, Brian Stelter, CNN Senior Media Correspondent, host of "Reliable Sources." So, Brian, will he -- do you think he will
really be back in six months or this the beginning of the end for him?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SR. MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Almost everybody I talked to so far at NBC tonight says, no. They do not think he will be back. But
there are all just guessing, just like we are. There is no firm answer to that question about what is going to happen six months from now when the
suspension ends. But, imagine how hard it is going to be for Brian Williams to regain the trust and the credibility of the audience when he is
not on the air.
PINSKY: Yes.
STELTER: When he is sitting on the bench.
PINSKY: Yes.
STELTER: This is a very difficult position for him to be in. As one person just said to me, a long-time NBC staffer, said, I feel like I just
witnessed a sudden death.
PINSKY: And, Brian, is he going to be silenced during these six months or is he going to be able to explain himself? Because so many people want him
just to be clear, what was this? What did we see?
And by the way, Let us everybody in this mob that is attacking this man remind ourselves that the allegations are really primarily during periods
of his life where he was not reporting the news. He just was hyperbolically expressing himself on late-night television.
STELTER: Yes, he was telling stories. He was telling tall tales, frankly, and sometimes that happens when you are talking to a friend. The problem
is, it cannot happen on national television when you are a journalist, who is credibility is on the line.
And, I think everybody kind of agrees on that now. But, we should say he was in Iraq and New Orleans. He was covering these stories and doing good
work. However, he did go too far in some of these retellings of these stories. That is what eventually got him into trouble.
We know that his name will not be on the program for the next six months. We know that Lester Holt will be filling in. All in all, a very difficult
position for him to be in, but also for NBC News to be in. I know a lot of Brian Williams` fans were complaining on Facebook and Twitter, saying
"Brian should be given a second chance."
PINSKY: Right.
STELTER: This does not look like a second chance to me.
PINSKY: No, it does not. And, I really wonder how, as we go forward in this time of everything being documented on cameras and on social media,
how long are people going to be held accountable for being perfect.
Brian, have you ever done anything in your life that people might look little eccentric? You are doing a good job now. You are being as perfect
as you can, but does your entire lifespan have to be perfect?
(LAUGHING)
STELTER: You know, I made a mistake last week in reporting on the Brian Williams` story. And, I knew that it was going to be a real test for him.
I made sure that I explained myself and was fully transparent about it.
So, when I made the mistake, I wrote a thousand-word essay for cnn.com, explaining what had happened, explaining why I had done it. I am not
trying to give advice to Brian Williams here and NBC here, but they were pretty standoffish in their initial handling the situation. There were no
thousand-word essays from Brian Williams or anybody else.
PINSKY: All right.
STELTER: I would like to think that if there have been a more firm apology early on and a better explanation, maybe -- just maybe, this might not have
happened this way.
PINSKY: Thank you, Brian. I think that is a great point. The transparency is the issue. We will have more in the suspension of Brian
Williams later on. I will be challenging my panelist with precisely the same questions.
But, right now, I am going to move on to the most tweeted story of the night. Bobbi Kristina Brown remains in a coma -- closed her family. But,
what in fact did these mean and where did these reported injuries come from? What does that all about. Take a look at this.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR OF "ANDERSON COOPER 360": There are disturbing new questions tonight in the investigation to what happened to Bobbi
Kristina Brown?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): One of Bobbi Kristina`s last Instagram posts. How did she go from that to facedown and unresponsive in a bathtub?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A source with knowledge of this case says they are looking at injuries to the mouth and also a missing tooth. Police
have questioned Nick Gordon about some bruising on Bobbi Kristina`s chest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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TOMMY BROWN, BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN`S UNCLE: On behalf of Bobbi Kris, I know she thanks all of you all for your support and your continued prayers for
her recovery.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She is a fighter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): I have been told by all accounts that they want her to live.
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PINSKY: Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, anahitalive.com; Sunny Hostin, CNN Legal Analyst and host of HLN News and Movie and Karamo Brown, social
worker. Sunny, there has been a lot of news about Bobbi Kristina. Some of it is clearly false, according to the family at least. And, so, what are
these issues that they are disputing?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, the family has made it very, very clear that they want Bobbi Kristina to live, that they want everyone
is prayers to support that, that they have seen some positive signs. They have seen some improvement, Dr. Drew. And, again, that they want her to
live.
So, all these reports that we have been hearing about the fact that the family has decided to take her off of life support, that she is brain dead,
that sort of thing, has been very troubling to the family because they have made it very clear, at least to me, that that is not the case and that they
are -- that Bobbi Kristina is fighting, that she is a fighter and they very much so want her to live.
PINSKY: Well, I am sorry, but as a clinician, reading between the lines, this looks terrible. And, if what I think is going on is what is going on
in the state of the patient, I am wondering why the medical team is not helping them come to terms with what is really going on here. It really is
very troubling.
And, if I were in Bobbi Kristina`s place and somebody continued to keep me in suspended animation, I would come back and haunt them when I finally did
die and I would get them, because this is getting excruciating. What is going on here, Sunny? I do not understand. This is ten days in a coma.
This does not look good at all. I would not want to recover from something like this.
HOSTIN: Well, again, it is a medically-induced coma. I do not believe that we know the extent of her injuries. We do not know the extent of her
brain function --
PINSKY: But, Sunny -- No, no. Come on. Ten days on a ventilator in ICU, that is disaster. It just is. Disaster. I do not care -- and by the way,
you can only go so long on medically-induced coma, you can only do that so long or you start causing more trouble than you are preventing. So, this
is really at the point where it just looks disastrous.
HOSTIN: Well, all I can say is that even just today, Dr. Drew, the family released a statement and Bobby Brown in that statement said, "The prayers
are working." So, from what I am being told is there have been some signs of improvement and they are really hoping for the best. They are praying
for the best.
PINSKY: Of course they are. Of course.
HOSTIN: And, I think we have to respect that.
PINSKY: But of course they are. This is horrible for them. But, you see -- Karamo, you see what I am getting at here. I mean this is ten days in a
coma from hypoxic brain injury. This is catastrophe.
KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: This has catastrophe written all over it. But, to go back to live it to what Sunny said about the family has released
statements that they are heartbroken. Of course they are heartbroken.
PINSKY: Of course, it is terrible.
BROWN: It is terrible, but it is a little bit too late for me. Because what is keeps on coming in my mind every time I hear this story and every
time I talked about this story is, why has this family now wanted to rally around this young woman, as she is sitting in a coma for ten days. And why
is not someone stepping in and helping her through this. Like you said, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Helping the family through this.
BROWN: Yes. I would haunt them as well.
PINSKY: Yes. I have seen too many situations like this. Anahita, do you want to get into this?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. We do not know whether or not the doctors are advising them of this fact, Dr. Drew. It is only been
ten days.
PINSKY: Only?
BROWN: Only.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, it is hard -- can you imagine being a family member of a loved one who was in a coma who is possibly brain dead?
PINSKY: I have been there hundreds of times with people, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, it is hard.
PINSKY: It is terrible. It is horrible.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is terrible but it is understandable that they cannot come to the reality. They cannot accept the fact that maybe she will not
recover. So, I say give them some time. Perhaps, the doctors are advising them of the reality, but they need time --
PINSKY: How long? When do you start going -- look, this is going to be -- even if she recovers, her recovery is going to be a disaster.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. If she is brain dead, I know --
PINSKY: She is not brain dead. She is not brain dead. Nobody has said brain death. Nobody has said that.
SEDAGHATFAR: But being in the induced coma for so long --
PINSKY: No. It is what is the -- what kind of meaningful recovery is there after somebody has had profound hypoxic brain injuries.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: What is the probability of being able to move your limbs, being able to swallow, being able to breathe on your own, being able to
communicate with the outside world. All of those probabilities really start to go down with time.
They are very unlikely. And, I am telling you, for myself, I would get anybody that would put me into that state. That is just not something -- I
would want someone to do to me. Anahita, do you want somebody do that to you? Would you think that is OK?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not like to think about that. Stop, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Well, then everyone needs to make -- put that all down in writing in a directive to positions in their family --
SEDAGHATFAR: And, that is what a lot of people are talking about. Perhaps, she did have an advance medical directive.
PINSKY: I do not think a 20-year-old will have that.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, someone who inherited the estate that she inherited. I am sure she had estate attorneys, trust attorneys that helped her; possibly
put some of these things together. We really just do not know.
But, again, ten days is really not that long, in my opinion, Dr. Drew. This is a loved family member. It is going to be very difficult for them
to finally throw in the towel and say, "OK, let us take her off life support." I say give them just a little more time.
PINSKY: Absolutely. But boy, we need to be talking about what kind of recovery we could be looking at here. This is just a terrible, heart-
wrenching situation that a lot of people get into, and it is up to the clinicians to help people through this.
Because we live in a time where we can keep people going. I am going to talk to Dr. Lloyd about this later -- indefinitely. But the kind of
recovery that you have after the kind of extended injury, it is just can be disastrous. We are back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Coming up, pathologist Dr. Bill Lloyd tells us what he knows about Bobbi Kristina`s injuries.
And, later, who would take a selfie at a murder scene and goes social with it? That is what police want to know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): The questions continue to swirl. How and why did Bobbi Kristina Brown end up facedown and unresponsive in a
bathtub?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (2): The investigation is really focusing on anyone and everyone who was in the house the night before Bobbi Kristina
was found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (3): Brown has never commented about whether she has a serious problem with drugs or alcohol. Concerns over whether
Bobbi Kristina has a substance abuse problem surfaced soon after Whitney Houston is death in 2012.
Last year, this picture was posted on her Instagram account showing someone that looked like her apparently smoking a bong. She later deleted the
photo saying she did not post it. And tweeted that someone was trying to hurt her image.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sunny, Anahita and Karamo. We are discussing Bobbie Kristina Brown and her condition. How she ended up in that bathtub. Her
mother, Whitney Houston, died three years ago tomorrow. Karamo, thoughts on this rumor that they might suspend life support on the anniversary of
her death. To me that sounds -- first of all, Sunny has told us, it is not true and it sounds not true to me.
BROWN: Yes. I hope it is not true, because if it is true it is a little disgusting. The fact that you would try to keep the relationship that the
day her mother died with her date of death the same is just disgusting. Try to get this girl some help. We watched her rallied around her before.
Trying to plan the death dates is not attractive at all.
PINSKY: And Sunny, the family -- have they addressed any of these substance issues or is that just something they just do not want to not
discuss it now? And, by the way, just because she had a bong does not mean she is a drug addict, by the way.
I mean -- and just because she abuses drugs does not mean she was a drug addict, per se. And, we do not know anything about any of that, the facts
are. And, we do not know if drugs were involved with this whole mess at all.
HOSTIN: Well, that is right. I mean we do not know that drugs were involved with this incident at all. Although, it has been documented that
Bobbi Kristina did have some substance abuse problems. And, the family certainly was concerned about that.
And, you know, had been as a family, I think, trying to address it. The other thing that I want to mention in terms of her injuries is that the
family is very concerned about injuries to her body. They want an explanation. They do not think that they understand or know the entire
story.
So, they are very concerned as to what happened here. They have a lot, a lot of questions and they do not feel that it has been answered. I know
that they are pleased that this has turned into a criminal investigation.
PINSKY: Right.
HOSTIN: We know that now, the Roswell Police Chief has confirmed that there is a criminal investigation, and that they were looking at everyone
that was there in the house the night before the incident. And, they are also looking at people who had any contact with Nick Gordon.
And, so this is, again, an active investigation. The family is being very supportive of that investigation. But at the same time, I think they want
to make it very clear that they are really asking for people`s support and prayers for some sort of recovery for Bobbi Kristina.
PINSKY: And, certainly for prayers for the family and prayers for her eternal soul. Those sorts of prayers by all mean. And, let me ask you
this, Sunny. Is nick Gordon around? Is the family communicating with him? Is he being seen? Is making a vigil at the bedside?
HOSTIN: Look, the family has made it very clear that they have not been a fan of Nick Gordon. Pat Houston, Bobbi Kristina`s aunt and the executor of
Whitney Houston`s estate took out a restraining order against Nick Gordon.
Bobby Brown has no interest in having Nick Gordon at the hospital. My understanding, Dr. Drew, is that he has not been allowed into the hospital.
And, so, the family is certainly is sort of circling the wagon around her, but they are excluding Nick Gordon. They have a lot of questions.
PINSKY: Yes. I feel so bad for Bobby Brown. Oh my God. And, Anahita, what happens do you think to Nick Gordon if, God forbid, this woman --
young woman dies? If Bobbi Kristina dies?
SEDAGHATFAR: There could be -- If he had something to do with it, obviously, he can be charged with murder. And, look, it is understandable,
the police need to conduct a very thorough investigation here, Dr. Drew. They need to talk to everybody involved, because they found a 20-year-old
girl facedown in a bathtub unresponsive.
They need to rule out or decide, was this foul play? Was this something she intentionally did to herself? Was this an accident? And, obviously,
the first person they are going to talk to is the boyfriend, the person that is closest to her.
So, yes, there are some reports that she apparently had some bruising on her body. And, some of the reports say that he told the police that those
bruises occurred when he was trying to revive her, when he was trying to give her CPR. So, I think the police have a lot of work to do.
PINSKY: Now, Daphne Barak is a journalist who knows Nick Gordon. Nancy Grace asked her if Nick was even in the home, Friday night until Saturday
when Bobbi Kristina had been found. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAPHNE BARAK, JOURNALIST WHO KNOWS NICK GORDON: I did not ask him about the night. But when we talked, I understood, if I am correct, that he was
in the gym in the morning and then he came back home. And, if you know that house, it is not a small house. So, it makes sense that if she was
missing half an hour and an hour, he would not really ask about her whereabouts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There is so many unanswered questions, are not there, Sunny? I can understand that there -- go ahead.
HOSTIN: There are. And, you know, the thing is, we know that there has been some discord between the family and Nick Brown. But, I want to make
it very clear. I think we have to be very careful when making any suggestion that Nick Brown was in any way involved in this incident.
Because the bottom line is, you cannot unring a bell. If he had nothing to do with this unfortunate incident, we do not want to go around ruining
someone`s life --
PINSKY: Right.
HOSTIN: -- With baseless accusations. But, again, there is a criminal investigation. The police have questioned him. And, the family feels that
there are a lot of unanswered questions as to how this happened.
How does a 21-year-old who just the night before was sending out Instagram pictures is found facedown in a bathtub. There are just a lot of
questions I think for everyone.
PINSKY: Right. And, we will continue this conversation after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Next, Bobbi Kristina`s mother died three years ago tomorrow. Will her family ever take her off life
support?
And, later, will Brian Williams ever be back in the anchor chair?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 911 DISPATCHER: Responding to an echo-level response. Possible cardiac arrest. 21-year-old female in the bathtub, facedown. Pd`s
en route.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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DR. JOHN BOOCKVAR, NEUROSURGEON: She is a drowning victim and ultimately that means you have decreased oxygen to your body -- both to your body and
brain and that is a lifeless situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: As long as she is demonstrating some primitive neurologic function, they are not going to call her brain
dead. The electronic activity in fact should become quite diminished over the last few days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, boy, what I am reading looks disastrous for poor Bobbi Kristina.
DR. LLOYD: When an anomaly like this happens, you have to think of the unusual causes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" SHOW: She has bruising on her chest and police asked Nick Gordon about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita and Karamo. And, joining us is Dr. Bill Lloyd, Surgeon/Pathologist. Dr. Lloyd, let us stand at the bedside and have it
out as two clinicians, looking over the decisions on a desperately ill young lady. She is on a ventilator, ten days since in hypoxic brain
injury.
We are the attending physicians on this case. The family is hoping for the best. They are suffering profoundly. We believe this child is not brain
dead but there is not a likelihood -- maybe you disagree -- of meaningful recovery. What do we do here?
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: This is the great thing that makes this show so unique, Drew, that you and I can chat as doctor to
doctor and the audience can eavesdrop on us. What I am going to say, Drew, is that I think you are hanging a little too much like crepe. Why do not
you tell everybody what that means?
PINSKY: Well, I am saying is, I personally am biased because if I could not have a fully meaningful recovery, I would not want to recover. And, I
would haunt anybody that subjected me to a lifetime in bed or with feeding tubes or contracted or unable to express myself verbally or even really put
me at significant risk for that kind of thing. And, I am saying this young lady is at risk for that. It is the best possible outcome in all
probability. You disagree?
DR. LLOYD: She is ten days out and she was placed in a medically--induced coma. It is not a coma from having slipped and banged her head or even
from the drowning. They put her into that coma because at that time on day one, they must have thought there has to be some kind of chance of
resuscitation or are not going to go to bother in the expense of doing it.
PINSKY: Wait, Dr. Lloyd. I have been in situation --
DR. LLOYD: People have come out of medical comas after weeks and weeks.
PINSKY: Well, ten days. Ten days is that point where right there, where the probability of meaningful recovery -- When they lighten her off her
coma, she seizes. She had generalized seizures, which suggest profound generalized brain injury.
Not impossible to have some recovery. But, why do not we begin talking more realistically, you and I to the family about what it is likely to
happen here. That is my question.
DR. LLOYD: All right. The answer to that question is, we are hearing two different narratives. We are hearing the family on the outside of the
building saying, "Everything is stable. Everything is looking good. We think she is actually getting better." Behind the scenes, they may be
having a more direct face-to-face conversation.
PINSKY: I hope so.
DR. LLOYD: What needs to happen going forward.
PINSKY: I hope so. Yes.
DR. LLOYD: And, we do not know.
PINSKY: Do not you hope so for their well-being and for them to process all of this. It is so -- I keep thinking about Bobby Brown. He lost his
ex-wife. He lost his daughter.
This man -- I mean you are talking about suffering, this man has got to be suffering. Nancy Grace spoke to Journalist, Daphne Barack, who seems to
have an inside track with the family. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There is no talk among the family right now. I mean the pulling the plug as has been wildly, wildly reported. What are you hearing about
her condition?
BARACK: I understand as of yesterday afternoon that they told me that they got a report that she is improving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But improving, Dr. Lloyd, as you and I know, may mean that now she can swallow and has corneal reflexes. It might mean more -- nothing more
than that or maybe that she does not seize quite as severely when they lighten up her coma, but we do not know any of this. What do you make --
DR. LLOYD: This is why we call it the healing profession. This is where true healers, doctors who work in this environment, this intensive care
unit, have to sit with the family and be pragmatic.
Be good listeners but at the same time paint the story correctly as to what the real prognosis is going forward. I mentioned at the beginning, hanging
black crepe, which is what you are doing --
PINSKY: That is what I am doing.
DR. LLOYD: Usually, there is not much quality of life left involved here - -
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: We need to all come to a consensus.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: Ten days might be a little on the early side. People involved in automobile accidents have been placed in a coma for four to six weeks.
They have come out of it and eventually they have walked out of the hospital. I am not saying this is her situation, but you cannot take the
information from your best experience from the hundreds of cases --
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: -- and then make an average of it and apply it to her. Every patient is different.
PINSKY: You are right. And, we are not --
DR. LLOYD: There are facts that we do not know.
PINSKY: We do not have. That is right.
DR. LLOYD: There are facts that we do not know.
PINSKY: But, Karamo, you know what I am getting at here is that, I am hoping that, you know, that somebody is really talking realistically with
the family and that we all sort of -- we all of us have to kind of come to terms with this, too.
BROWN: I hope so, because the family needs to be prepared for this. There is a lot of grieving process. There are going to be suffering for a very
long time. I am glad that they are actually taking the time to believe in miracles and hope that she could get better, but someone needs to be
talking to them about what could happen.
Because, if that happens, they do not need to be shocked. And, also the public who is rallying around Bobbi Kristina, it is a little late but I am
happy the public is finally rallying around him. Should actually then is well be prepared, so that they can help somebody who is in their family if
they are going through some traumatic situation, so that they do not end up like this.
PINSKY: And, Anahita, we are hearing about injuries to the mouth and injury -- bruising on the chest wall.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: To me, it is all explicable on the basis of the resuscitation attempts. Do they mean anything more sinister from a legal standpoint to
you?
SEDAGHATFAR: You know, it could be. Again, if the police attribute those bruises and those injuries to anyone else and that is the approximate cause
of her death, they could be facing homicide charges. But Dr. Drew, I have a question about --
We talked about the doctors advising the family. Would that not be medical malpractice for the doctors not to have this discussion with the family and
tell them what their realistic chances are or is that an ethical issue?
PINSKY: It is more of an ethical issue. I cannot tell you how many times I have been in situations where doctors -- Because they identify so
strongly and do not want to hurt the family`s feelings, they will say things that they do not really realize that the family is not really
getting it. They are not really receiving it.
I cannot tell you how many times surgeons say, "Well, we got it all and it was a solid tumor that I know is going to spread everywhere in a few
months," but the surgeons leave the family with the sense that they got it all. Or that they will come out of somebody in a coma with severe, severe
brain injury that we know they are not going to recover from -- well, they are improving.
Sometimes, I actually referred ethics committees in hospitals for these very issues. It is a concern and I am just fearful that they are not being
honest and thorough with a family that may not be getting how -- how desperate this thing is.
And my biggest fear, and this is really why I am hanging crepe as Dr. Lloyd said. Listen, I hope she has a full recovery and I pray for this family.
I prayed for her. But the reality is, the kind of recovery you are likely to get in situations like this is very unsavory. It is not something that
people think of or been exposed to. I see, Karamo, you are shaking your head, but I got to go to break. And, we will talk more after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Next, Brian Williams suspended for half a year, and there is more. Snapchat murder. Did an alleged teen killer
really take a selfie with his victim?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC ANCHOR OF "NIGHTLY NEWS": The fact is, I remember three aircraft going down. I was on one of them. It was my first
engagement of the war. And remember, I was -- we were all, I think, scared. All we knew is, we had been fired upon.
All we knew was we had set down. It all became a fog of getting down on the ground, what do we do now? I did not set out to in any way change the
chronicle of what happened to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Brian Williams being interviewed by "Stars and Stripes" on February 4th. Tonight we know Nbc has suspended him for six months
without pay for misrepresenting the facts about his experience in Iraq.
Let us bring in the Behavioral Bureau, Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu!; Erica America, psychotherapist and radio host; Karamo Brown back
with me. So, my question, Erica, will this be a career ender?
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I hope not. I mean, my first thing was, let us forgive him, because I am a forgiver, you know? And, I think the
American public likes to give people second chances. But, on the secondhand, the first rule of journalism is to tell the truth.
And, unfortunately, I just do not think he did not did that here. And, what is sad, he did not have to do this, Dr. Drew. He was charismatic. He
had so many accolades. I think he was filling something in himself that was just not enough with this story. That is what I think it was
psychologically for him.
PINSKY: Right. I agree.
AMERICA: And, it really hurt people and I think that is what it is. He was, you know, one of the top 22 people trusted -- most trusted people in
America. And, it really got to people and I do not know if people are going to be able to trust him again.
But I do think overall that as a public we are forgiving and that after the six months away, I think he should be given a chance again and see if he
can rebuild himself again.
PINSKY: But, Erica --
AMERICA: I do not think it should be, you know, you mess up once and you are done.
PINSKY: Yes. I think that is right. I was asking Brian Stelter this a little bit earlier, Sam is, how long do people have to be perfect before
the public is willing to give them a break?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" HOST: Right.
PINSKY: I mean, he has a personality hiccup. Erica described it perfectly. He sort of exaggerated as well as, you know, making -- puffing
himself up, even if it was a memory distorted or whatever it was, it suited his sense of who he is and what he needs to say about these.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: But, it was not what he was reporting the news. It was sort of when he was on a late night show and what he was doing, you know, in his
own time telling good stories.
SCHACHER: Right. He lied and embellished about what happened in Iraq. Well, guess what? So, did the U.S. government. So, should they be fired,
too? And, that what bothers me, Dr. Drew. I get why people are upset. I get that people are not going to see him as trustworthy and credible.
And, perhaps he should be benched for six months. But, that is between him and his employers. I do not like this what I am seeing on Twitter and
Facebook. I do not like this mob mentality. People need to put the pitchforks down and take a breath.
AMERICA: Exactly.
SCHACHER: Because they are almost celebrating and cheering on his demise. It makes me feel really icky.
PINSKY: Yes. People -- we become a lynch mob on social media. Now, Evy Poumpouras is on the phone, of course, she is former Secret Service -- we
described as former Secret Service Agent. Evy, though, you really have no patience with what Brian Williams did.
EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SECRETE SERVICE AGENT: No. It is not that I do not have patience. You know, I am very saddened about that because I have
watched him over the years. I have actually met him and seen him on Air Force 1. He is a great journalist.
But, there is a concern, Dr. Drew. He is being dishonest about this about this incident -- and then what else have he been dishonest about. And, you
usually do not go to this level of dishonesty and embellishment if you have not done it in the past. That is usually how life of people who lie
generates. So, there is that credibility issue if he is lying.
Now, the other thing is I would have a lot more respect if he would come out and just take ownership and say, you know what? I am sincerely sorry.
I take responsibility. But, he has not done that. He is coming out and almost giving all these other rationalizations as to why he did it, rather
than taking ownership. And, I think that takes the weight from his character.
PINSKY: You know, I want us to listen to a little bit more of what he said to "Stars and Stripes." Can we get that? Yes. He may have -- he is
explaining why his inexperience may have hurt him in a war zone. In other words, kept him from really accurately remembering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: I would not have chosen to make this mistake. I do not know what screw up in my mind caused me to conflate one aircraft from the other.
A professional will look at this differently. They go into a kind of hyperdrive. I did what a civilian, an untrained civilian would do in that
instance and it was -- it was being scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You can vote in tonight`s poll, should Williams do a sit-down interview explaining these apparent embellishments? Go to hlntv.com\drew
or our Facebook page at drdrewhln. Erica, what gives us delight in making people suffer because they disappoint us a little bit.
SCHACHER: Right. Gosh!
PINSKY: Is everybody perfect? Are you perfect, Erica? Have you never exaggerated, ever?
AMERICA: I am so far from perfect and once we all accept that about each other, we will love ourselves more. OK? We cannot expect, whether it is
President Obama, whether it is Britney Spears, whether it is Kim Kardashian or whether it is Brian Williams to be perfect. OK?
It was not an egregious error. You know, he embellished a little bit, yes; but -- you always bring it up, Dr. Drew. Social media allows people like a
mob mentality to go crazy and just say, "Well, that is it. You know, off with their head." And, like that is the same thing that like ISIS is doing
by cutting people`s heads off. We are not doing that. That is not what we are doing.
PINSKY: It is a little bit different but I do agree with most of what Erica said.
AMERICA: I mean I am exaggerating.
PINSKY: You are lying, Erica. You just lied right there. You lied. We are going to have to do something with you --
(LAUGHING)
AMERICA: I did that on purpose.
PINSKY: And you did it on a news program. What are we going to do here? This is the point. None of us are perfect. None of us are. This guy had
a hiccup. He is going to pay a price for it. I say, we give him a chance to bring things back.
Of course, he disappointed us. Of course, we like an explanation. Of course, it hurts us that somebody that we elevate is not exactly who we
thought he was. He is a human being like the rest of us. How disappointing.
Yes, he needs to be accountable. Yes, he needs to have a consequence for his actions but let us listen to exactly what he has got to say. Right
now, I think he is being quiet because no one wants to hear from him. It is probably a little more nuance than he can explain in a way that we can
hear right now. While everyone got their torches and pitchforks out. We are back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Next, the screen grab that has everyone talking. A suspected teen killer posing with his alleged victim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 16-year-old Maxwell Morton, accused of murder after he allegedly shot his classmate in the face.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): I want to know why they did it to him and why they would leave his body for his mother to clean up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Then took a selfie with the dead body in the background.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): Stand here blatantly smiling in a phone while somebody in a background with a gunshot in his face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He then snapchatted the pic to a friend. That friend`s mother then turned the photo over to police. They say they
still do not know why he did it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): The night it happened he messaged me and he was like, "Ryan got shot in the head. I am sorry."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Samantha, Erica, and Dr. Bill Lloyd. Evy with us on the phone. Time for what we call, "Seriously?" A story that will be hard to
believe if it were not true. A 16-year-old allegedly shoots his friend in the face and then sends out a selfie via snapchat, dead body in the
background. Sam, take me through some of what the evidence found.
SCHACHER: Oh, so chilling and yes, friend in quotes, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: So, the victim is Ryan Mangan. And, he was found in his room sitting in a chair with a gunshot wound to his face. He was just left
there. Now, the picture of Ryan -- on Ryan`s phone showed him posing with the gun.
Of course, we also have that snapchat photo. Police recovered the gun from the suspects basement. Also, the suspect confessed to cops that he shot
Ryan in the face and just left him there.
PINSKY: Why? No motive?
SCHACHER: They are still investigating. He does not even have a lawyer, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Oh my God.
SCHACHER: So -- yes. Perhaps when there is an attorney and we learn more about the story. But, it sounds like he is a pretty -- he is a psychopath.
In order to have that level of disconnect to take a selfie in front of somebody you just shot in the face --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. And, apparently, he sent a text message to a friend saying, quote, "I told you, I cleaned up the shelves," end quote. Ryan was
not the last one.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Evy, what do you make of all these. And, my also understand, Evy, that the victim was photographed with making gang signs and brandishing
weapons? How do you make sense of all this?
POUMPOURAS: Yes. So, I actually looked at the victim`s Instagram account and if you look at that account, you actually see the victim holding
weapons. And, you know, taking photos with himself with weapons, using drugs or smoking drugs.
But, you see a lot of high-risk behavior with that victim and actually in criminology, there is a study called victimology, where you actually look
at the high-risk behavior of the victim and often criminals end up being themselves victims.
Now, I am not saying this young man, who obviously is a victim, did anything as a criminal. But you see this behavior and I ask, what were
these young men doing? There was something there going on. You know, what kind of stuff culture?
What friend they are involved in that they have these weapons, that they have these drugs and that they are so young in age. I think that, that is
really where I wanted to deep fry. Yes, of course, there is a disconnect with the suspect here.
You know, to take -- to shoot somebody and take a photo of that and think that, that is a normal behavior. Obviously, I want to know who are they
hanging out with? What are they doing? What are they involved with?
PINSKY: And, Erica, I think Sam brought up the question of him being - psychopathy or sociopothy. You want to comment. Go ahead.
AMERICA: Yes -- No. I mean I definitely can see that with his behavior, but I want to say this we are relating it to social media. I mean this is
something I have said on the show many times before. It is going to go to the place where someone is going to kill someone in a snapchat or on a
YouTube video or on an Instagram video.
It is going to be horrible but now we have the after effect, the victim shot after. But, it is unfortunately, social media is creating this crazy
place and it is the question is, which comes first?
Is the killer doing it to show off or are they showing off because they killed the person? Which is it? It is this really, really scary thing
where we are going to see like the nastiest side of humanity come out in social media. So, I am just putting it out there.
PINSKY: And, Sam, I am going to give you last thought in a second, but first I want to consult with Dr. Lloyd about one thing. I do not know if
you can see the pictures of the victim there, but he is yoked out. Looks like steroids to me, doctor. What do you say?
DR. LLOYD: I think this is a new twist on an old practice. For centuries, murderers have always tried to capture some booty after the murder, whether
it is stealing jewelry from the individual, perhaps even taking a finger or a scalp. Now, in the 21st century, they are simply taking photographs.
SCHACHER: Right.
DR. LLOYD: Maybe for bragging rights or other purposes. But, as a minor, when he hooks up with an attorney, we are not going to hear much more about
motivation.
PINSKY: This is the suspect they are telling me, the guy that is yoked out a bit? OK. Well, then it makes explain perhaps some of the violence.
But, Sam, last words here.
SCHACHER: OK. Last words. I do not blame social media. I think there are pros and cons to social. OK? We talked about those last night. Most
of the population is on Twitter and Facebook. So, that is going to include rapists and murderers and psychopaths and thank God for snapchat here,
because it captured this moment. And, I agree with Dr. Bill Lloyd, I think it was a momento what happened and he was braggadocios about it. And, we
were able to catch a psychopath because of social media.
PINSKY: All right. We are back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Next, is there any defense for the alleged murderer? The conversation continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Dr. Bill Lloyd and Evy. Evy, lovely to see your wonderful face. She was a victim of Los Angeles traffic. Welcome to the
program.
POUMPOURAS: I was. I was.
PINSKY: We are discussing a teenager who allegedly shot his friend in the face then sent out a selfie via snapchat with the dead body in the
background. Dr. Lloyd, any sense of what this is from a pathological standpoint. I mean he is criminal, psychopathy, steroid psychosis? He is
the one that is all yoked out, the suspect --the suspect.
DR. LOYD: Well, we know criminals always return to the scene of the crime. That is the old maxim. It got to be an old Maxim, because it is true.
Nowadays, they are doing it with digital technology. So, this gentleman can go back and revisit the event again and again, but here is the trap.
That digital image is loaded with computer forensics that will place him in that room, GPS, time and date and lots of other things that the police do
not want you to know about, and there is no way that data will ever be erased.
PINSKY: And, Evy, a guy that behaves like this, this could not be a single incident. I mean this is so sort of inhuman the way he is behaving.
POUMPOURAS: Yes, I think there is other behavior here. That is why I looked at that Instagram account --
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: -- And looking at their behavior. I am looking at the things that even that the victim posted. But, you know what, I think we are in
whole new world of crime, so to speak. There is a whole new level of criminology. I think social media is going to be a new platform.
It gives people notoriety, even making them feel like they are tough when they are able to commit a crime, when they are able to assault someone.
So, I think we are going to move into a different age that there is a huge disconnect, you know, with social media, even with video games. Take
something as video games that a lot of young men especially engaged in.
And, that is why even video games are rated. And, so, I think the idea of this notoriety of killing and hurting other people, rather than us as a
society saying, you know, this is bad, the entertainment industry makes it seem like it is a very cool, fun thing for young people to do.
PINSKY: And, so, Sam, there is a lot pack to what Evy was saying, that she is sort of blaming social media. It is an opportunity. It is Dr. Lloyd
said for more --
SCHACHER: Criminality.
PINSKY: No. That is not criminality, but people take -- what do you call it? Samples of what they have done and wait until the virtual reality
thing hits.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Who knows what that is going to do to our brains.
SCHACHER: Oh, yes. I do not want to know. But, I do not think that social media is it necessarily creating criminality. I think it is just
showcasing it. And, I do think it is important. Yes, we do need to educate our teens, our children on how to use social media.
It is like the wild, wild west out there. There is no regulations. But, I love that it is catching these idiotic criminals. Thank God that they
think that they can take a selfie after shooting someone. How horrific.
PINSKY: And, by the way, how did they got that?
SCHACHER: And think that they are not going to get caught.
PINSKY: How did the snapchat not dissipate? How do they capture it?
SCHACHER: You can screen grab it, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, but somebody has to screen grab it.
SCHACHER: Yes, his friend.
PINSKY: Somebody is smart enough to do that.
SCHACHER: Well, his friend -- well, everyone knows how to screen grab a snapchat.
PINSKY: Well, I got to say, if I saw a dead body in the back or if somebody snapshot, I think I would be too shock to get that screen -- You
only have a few seconds.
SCHACHER: Yes. I would hope that you would immediately just, you know, go into an autopilot and, boop, you know? Screen grab.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Perhaps. But, it is a new world and social media is going to be a part of it. I agree with all of you. I think that this is something that
is creating something and capturing something all at the same time and that is what we are trying to keep our eye on. Please DVR us then you can watch
us any time. "Jack Vale: Offline," follows this program and begins now.
END
