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Obama Sends ISIS Plan to Congress; NBC Suspends Brian Williams for 6 Months; Foreign Fighters Joining ISIS at Rapid Rate; Hernandez's Girlfriend Granted Immunity.

Aired February 11, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: It may end up being the most important vote in over a decade for members of Congress. President Obama has sent his plan to Congress that would give the U.S. permission to wage a much bigger battle against ISIS.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We're joined now by Democratic Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut.

Senator, thank you so much for being with us.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, (D), CONNECTICUT: Sure. Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: Senator, we have read what you have to say about this measure over the last several days. You have concerns as do several other Democratic Senators about what some call a loophole. The president is calling for weapons only to enduring offensive ground combat operations and I know you and others have concerns that leaves an in if they want to use ground troops. Do you not trust the president here with that kind of authority?

MURPHY: No. I completely trust the president because I think he knows what can significantly degrade and defeat ISIL. That's limited military power in conjunction with partners, Arab partners in the region that give the space for real political and economic reform to stamp out ISIL. He's made it very clear to Congress and to the American public that he is not going to use major combat troops in this conflict. I have no doubt that the president is sincere about that.

The problem is that this authorization goes for three years. Not a year and a half. So it will extend a year and a half at least into the next president's term. And a lot of my Republican colleagues here have made it clear that they want to put boots on the ground and so I want to make sure that we have an authorization that takes the fight to ISIL but, as the American public has cleared told us, sets a line and says combat troops are not ultimately going to defeat ISIL, so we should keep them back here at home.

BOLDUAN: To that point, some of your Republican colleagues say that to defeat ISIL is impossible to do without American troops. Listen to Senator Lindsey Graham who was on the show yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: To my colleagues, if

you think you can win this fight without any American troops on the ground, your evaluation of the capabilities in the region are far different than mine. I want to win for the sake of this young lady and for the sake of all who have suffered under the hands of this brutal regime who burned a man alive. For god's sakes, let's get on with degrading and destroying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: You guys are in very different places on this. Where is the compromise because the fight against ISIL is happening right now?

MURPHY: I'm not sure what about the last 10 years as advertisement for massive deployment of ground troops in the Middle East. The reality is that as good a job as our soldiers do, the very presence of major American troops in Iraq over the last 10 years brought terrorists and extremists from all around the world to Iraq and to Syria. And so I'm not sure what you can read into our experience in that region that would suggest that we should open this up.

I'm furious about what happened to this young lady to the public executions of Americans and of Europeans. Anger is not a strategy. We've got to be smart about this fight. Smart strategy recognizes that combat troops, in the end, are going to become bulletin-board material for terrorists to bring even more forces to the fight in the Middle East and across the globe.

BERMAN: But by limiting combat troops as much as you seem to want to, sir, does that not tie the hands of the president? I understand you say you trust this president but not the next one. Shouldn't any executive, the argument goes, have the authority to wage the war they think they should?

MURPHY: That's not how the Constitution envisions foreign policy happening. Congress is authorized by Article I. The president is authorized by Article II. We frankly advocated our responsibility to try to help the president set strategy. And there's a long precedent of Congress enacting war authorizations with limitations. And so here, where we know that the president is committed to fighting this war without ground troops, I think we should simply take him at his word. Congress has effectively allowed too much discretion to the president and the results have been disastrous, a war in Iraq that never should have been fought in the first place, a war in Afghanistan badly mismanaged. Congress needs to get back in the game here. And there's nothing wrong with us having something to say about the right strategy moving forward.

BOLDUAN: Senator, you have said that this proposal is going to have to change dramatically to get your support. But timing here it seems to be kind of a priority, of an urgent nature because the United States and coalition forces are committing air strikes right now against ISIS and the goal is to defeat and degrade ISIS. What's the timing do you think? When do you think Congress will be able to come to some kind of a compromise and agreement?

MURPHY: We're in a curious place because the president still says that he has the authority to conduct these operations with or without this authorization. So let's be honest, he's not going to stop fighting ISIL while we debate this authorization. But I think that --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Do you think he doesn't need this authorization?

MURPHY: No, I think he does. I disagree with the president. I think that right now this is an extra constitutional conflict. I think he does. Just for practical purpose, the fight is not stopping.

So, I think we should have a prohibition against ground troops, with exceptions. There are places in which you're going to want to put Special Operations forces in to go after particular leadership within ISIL. You certainly have to have the room to do rescue operations. I think we can build an authorization that has a general prohibition on ground troops but then allows for some flexibility for the executive. I think ultimately that's a place where Republicans and Democrats can get together, and I'm hopeful that will be the process in the Foreign Relations Committee coming up.

BERMAN: Senator Chris Murphy, always great to have you with us. Appreciate your passion and your eloquence on this issue. Hope to see you again soon.

MURPHY: Fantastic.

BERMAN: Today at 3:30 eastern time, the president will issue a statement on this authorization he has sent to Congress. He'll make the case why he says he needs it. We'll bring you that statement when it happens here live on CNN.

BOLDUAN: Still ahead, Brian Williams is off the air and off the payroll for the next six months after his Iraq war story morphed into quite a huge scandal. Could there be more bad news coming for him?

BERMAN: Plus, a big moment in the Aaron Hernandez trial. His fiance granted immunity. Does this spell bad news for the former NFL star? You might be surprised.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: A stunning moment in the news for millions of Americans who depend on the news. Brian Williams suspended for six months without pay stemming for comments he made about riding in a helicopter he said was shot at during the Iraq war. It was, of course, not.

BOLDUAN: The question at this hour, what happens later this month after the six-months suspension is up? Really, what do folks think of the six-month suspension in the first place?

Joining us, Mark Feldstein, professor of broadcast journalism at the University of Maryland; and our senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

Good morning to both of you.

Mark, good to see you. It's been awhile.

You said to "The New York Times," "I don't know how he can ever read the news with a straight face or how the public will respond if he does." What the do you make of this?

MARK FELDSTEIN, PROFESSOR OF BROADCAST JOURNALISM, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Well, credibility is a fragile thing. He lost it. By his own admission, he lied. From NBC's statement, it appears he may have lied multiple times and multiple exaggerations. It will be hard to turn the clock back to the traditional credibility he had as a new anchor.

BERMAN: Mark, multiple lies.

Brian, if it was just this instance, six months without pay seems like a pretty harsh penalty there. Is there a sense that there is more out there? There's another shoe to drop?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: There is a sense. I don't know if it's an entire shoe but there's a sense there is more coming that NBC found that deserves further scrutiny and requires more fact checking. They've been fact checking for several days. A whole team at NBC has been doing it. They've been talking to soldiers on that Iraq war mission but also people involved in Hurricane Katrina aftermath that Brian Williams covered and other stories. I'm not sure which other ones yet. NBC does know. That's why they hinted at that yesterday. Let me play Brian Williams -- let me go into his mind for a moment. He's not at work today. He's suspended. My sense is he believes he can win people back still. He had a chance to resign. He could have resigned yesterday. He didn't. Instead he accepted the suspension. He believes he can apologize and he believes he can win people back. I think that's significant. A lot of folks at NBC are writing him off, saying there's no way we can come back. That's a widespread point of view but Williams believes he has a chance to win people back and apologize and earn a second chance.

BOLDUAN: To be contrarian, some people think six months without pay is a harsh penalty but others would say, Mark, if you're of that level, if you're the face of NBC "Nightly News," managing editor of "Nightly News" or any other organization and if this is multiple instances which they are investigating, folks would be canned.

FELDSTEIN: Yeah. Frankly, all three of you would be canned, and rightly so, as I would I, if you engaged in what he's admitted to and NBC is investigating. Truth matters. Trust matters. I realize that's an old fashioned view in the era of truthiness and celebrity values matter in television. When it comes right down to it, people watch the news to get information as well as entertainment. If you can't trust the person who is delivering the news, there's a price to be paid for it.

(CROSSTALK)

FELDSTEIN: As bad of a scandal as telling lies about the Iraq war to get us into it as the Bush administration did, no, but in journalistic circles, telling lies is a cardinal sin.

STELTER: Sorry to interrupt. I was going to say, if you're interviewing politicians, and you're Brian Williams, how can you ask about misstatements given this situation? Maybe time heals all wounds. Maybe six months is a long enough period of time that people will in their own way have memory lapse like Brian Williams says he had and move on. By then I have a feeling NBC may be happy with Lester Holt or other people filling in. The ratings came in for Tuesday and Holt beat ABC's "World News" with David Moore. That's something that was notable for NBC and preliminary numbers could change but it's another indication that viewers are not rejecting Brian Williams' fill in.

BOLDUAN: Mark is writing a book about media scandals. Obviously, a chapter added to that book.

Mark, great to see you. Get writing.

Brian Stelter, great to see you as well.

STELTER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: On a personal note -- you and I discussed this -- I struggled with covering this story from the very beginning. I was hesitant. I resisted myself because I would think someone with the stature of Brian Williams deserved the benefit of the doubt. We're in a different place at this moment obviously as he's been suspended. I was also surprised at how many people did not share the view that I had in our industry and that folks were really quick to jump on the bandwagon.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: It's a tight-knit industry but a cutthroat industry. There's sadness in the industry but also disappointment.

BERMAN: Looks bad for the business when someone at the top of the business suffers a scandal like this.

Brian, thanks for being with us.

STELTER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up, foreign fighters heading to join ISIS at an alarming rate. We'll break down the frightening numbers and discuss why so many are heading overseas to take on the fight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Happening now, an alarming warning to Congress about the rapidly increasing ranks of ISIS, growing in numbers and, most worrisome, the growing ranks of foreign fighters. A top U.S. counterterrorism expert says more than 20,000 fighters have joined ISIS from 90 different countries. About 3,400 are from Western countries and about 150 from the United States.

BOLDUAN: Officials say they need stronger counterterrorism laws to stop the flow of those terrorists across borders, but how? And also this. The chair of the House Homeland Security Committee says he's alarmed that the United States doesn't have a lead agency currently in charge of countering radicalization at home.

Let's discuss all of these especially these new numbers. With us now is Michael Weiss, the co-author of "ISIS Inside the Army of Terror."

Michael, what do you make of these numbers that are out? 20,000, they believe is the latest estimate, 3,400 coming from Western countries.

MICHAEL WEISS, AUTHOR: It's totally plausible. The important thing to keep in mind is that the minority are coming from Western countries, most foreign fighters have been tracked to join ISIS come from other countries in the Middle East to North Africa. Tunisia is a huge feeder. Just because, A, look, they are reading about ISIS or seeing the broadcasts in Arabic, they have the language, in Islamic populations, and it's easier to get to Syria or Iraq from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and these countries.

BERMAN: Here's what it says to me. It says they're still growing. It says despite the U.S.-led coalition, the bombing going on in Syria and Iraq, despite the worldwide media and the propaganda effort -- I don't use that word pejoratively here -- effort to say how bad these guys are, how evil there are, and show the beheadings and show their behavior, despite all that, there's still get the recruits they need and perhaps increasing the level of their recruits.

WEISS: This is not a new group, ISIS. It's been around for 11 years. It was al Qaeda in Iraq. By 2010, the upper echelons of the organizations were all but destroyed, captured or killed on the battlefield in Iraq. They've replenished their ranks and then some. So the resiliency of this group to pull in foreign fighters is extraordinary. And you have to understand their propaganda is that the United States and Iran are in league with each other to either kill, ethnically cleanse or dispose of Sunni Muslims in the area. That's what this is designed to sort of hammer home.

So indeed, people are watching this stuff and saying, I want to go off and do jihad, or at the very at least, join the vanguard group in the region, the only guarantor and protector of Sunni Muslims, which is what ISIS is billing itself as.

BOLDUAN: Do you agree with Mike McCall, the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee? He said ISIS is the largest convergence of terrorists in world history. Do you think that is --

WEISS: I think that's probably accurate. When we talk numbers, this is a difficult game because you're not just looking at the ISIS -- the people who have signed up to be the rank-and-file soldiers or the clerics. You're looking at fellow travelers and people who pledge allegiance or who operate more as affiliates.

BOLDUAN: The sympathizers.

WEISS: Yeah. Look at the expansive terrain these guys are lording over, the size of Great Britain, from Syria to Iraq. All the tribal areas, the populations under their sway have given some kind of pledge of allegiance to them. If you take in these numbers, you're looking at probably over 100,000.

BERMAN: And not shrinking.

WEISS: And not shrinking.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Michael Weiss, great to have you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

WEISS: Sure.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Coming up for us, a major moment in the trial of Aaron Hernandez. The star's fiance has now been given immunity to testify. She will testify for the prosecution. But is this necessarily an awful thing for Aaron Hernandez? You might be surprised.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Right now, the murder trial of former Patriots player Aaron Hernandez has resumed with a very big change in the courtroom. The defendant's fiance, Shayanna Jenkins, now armed with immunity, could testify for the prosecution.

BERMAN: What she says could be pivotal. We'll get to that in a moment. Prosecutors suspect Aaron Hernandez told her to get rid of the gun allegedly used to kill Odin Lloyd in 2013.

I want to bring in our legal analyst, Mel Robbins.

Mel, people say, oh, gosh, his fiance has immunity now, she's going to sing, this is over. That's not necessarily the case, is it?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right, John.

Hey, Kate. How are you?

And not so fast, everybody. The prosecutor has given her immunity for a particular reason. They want to back her into a corner, you guys. Keep in mind, she has pending perjury charges. The prosecutors alleging she lied not once but 29 times to the grand jury. Why grant her immunity? First of all, immunity means if she were to go on stand and say, yeah, I lied, yeah, I got rid of the gun, she would not be prosecuted for that. She's been given immunity. However, why the prosecution is giving her immunity is because when she gets on that stand, she cannot claim the Fifth Amendment right to self-protection against incrimination. She either has to testify and answer the questions directly that she's being asked or she will be held in contempt and she will be thrown in jail. She's not testifying for the prosecution, guys. She will be a hostile witness. This lady has been sitting with Aaron Hernandez's family. She mouths "I love you" when he comes into the courtroom. She is on his side. She will be hostile. They will treat her as a hostile witness and she will now be compelled to testify.

BOLDUAN: But it will still be just a dramatic moment here to see her on the stand because we're talking about the family dynamic. Her sister was the girlfriend of Odin Lloyd and has an entirely different take.

ROBBINS: Yeah. This is a serious case. But I think we're all thinking in the back of our minds, how long until the lifetime movie version of this comes out because the drama and the family plot line underneath this all is fascinating. But she's either going to get on the stand and sing, which she's likely not going to do, because she's still in Aaron Hernandez's camp, or she'll get on the stand and refuse to testify, in which case she'll get thrown in jail. Or she's going to get on the stand and do what she did with the grand jury and that is tell stories that aren't truthful and believable. For example, she's accused of lying about the fact that Aaron Hernandez called her from his attorney's office last June and asked her, instructed her to remove objects from the house. She denied that happened. Another thing that she denies remembering is those things she removed from the house. She's not quite sure what she did with them. So if she testifies like that in front of a jury, a jury might be like, I don't believe this chick. Something's weird between these two which goes to her credibility.

BERMAN: The prosecution banking this is a win-win for them. If she squirms on the witness stand, they're betting it looks good for them anyway.

Mel Robbins, always great to have you with us. Really appreciate it.

ROBBINS: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you, Mel.

And thank you all for joining us today. Thanks so much.

BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts just about now.