Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

More Than 20,000 Foreign Fighters Join ISIS; Family and Friends Remember Kayla Mueller; Greek Drama Weighs On Markets

Aired February 11, 2015 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Pivotal Ukraine peace talks expecting this morning. European leaders plan to meet with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Russian President Vladimir Putin today trying to broker a ceasefire.

President Obama is calling Putin ahead of the talks, urging him to accept a peaceful resolution. This as violence intensifies in Ukraine. At least 19 Ukrainian soldiers killed in the last 24 hours and four people killed when shells hit a bus station in Donetsk.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: At least 300 migrants from Libya are presumed dead after trying to cross the Mediterranean Sea. Officials are continuing to search for a fourth boat however rough sea conditions are said to be hampering their efforts.

The Italian Coast Guard tells CNN they have rescued 84 people, many victims died from hypothermia. Hundreds of Libyans are believed to have boarded small boats on Saturday.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Following a weather delay, testimony resumes today at the Massachusetts murder trial of former NFL star, Aaron Hernandez. The judge has granted his fiancee immunity. So now she'll be able to testify without implicating herself.

Prosecutors believe the fiancee followed instructions from Hernandez to dispose of the gun allegedly used in the shooting death of Odin Lloyd in 2013.

PEREIRA: Police confirm that a criminal investigation is under way in the near-drowning incident involving Bobbi Kristina. Officials are still trying to determine how the daughter of the late Whitney Houston became unresponsive in a bath tub full of water.

They have reportedly now questioned her boyfriend about bruises that were found on her chest. Bobbi Kristina remains in a medically- induced coma. You'll recall that Whitney Houston died three years ago, today. She, too, was found dead in a bathtub.

CAMEROTA: Well, startling testimony expected today from the head of the National Counterterrorism Center about just how many foreign fighters have joined ISIS.

Let's bring in General Mark Hertling, a CNN military analyst and the former commanding general of Europe and the Seventh Army, and counterterrorism expert, and senior fellow at the Foundation of Defense of Democracies, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY: Let's talk about these numbers that Congress will see because they are somewhat outrageous. Here are the numbers. We'll put them up on the screen for viewers.

The head of the Counterterrorism Center believes that there are 20,000 total foreign fighters from 90 different countries, who have gone to Iraq and Syria to join ISIS, 3400 of those are westerners, and approximately 150 of them are Americans.

Daveed, I know you take issue with some of these numbers. What's the problem do you think?

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, SENIOR FELLOW, FOUNDATION OF DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: No, I don't really take issue with the numbers, actually. I was talking, prior to the segment with the producer about certain jumps in numbers.

The point I made simply was that if the numbers increased by 1,000 over the course of a month, it isn't necessarily because you have 1,000 foreign fighters going that month.

But rather, it can be because of new national estimate for example came out from one of the relevant countries. But I think that the numbers are about as accurate as you'll get. There are some gaps in information because these guys are covert, but they're good numbers.

CAMEROTA: OK, that's good to know. Because General, it seems as though the numbers are a bit all over the map. For instance, the CIA just at the end of 2014 said that they believed that ISIS was only 20,000 to 30,000 strong. So fact that they would have that many foreign fighters does seem possibly inflated. Where are you on the numbers, General?

GENERAL MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I don't really care about the numbers, Alisyn, truthfully. I think it's concerning that they seem to be increasing. And I think it's a direct reflection of the recruiting effort of Jihadists.

And it's a very different approach that ISIS has taken than what we've seen from al Qaeda in the past. When I was fighting in Northern Iraq, the call to Jihad was come fight the occupiers, come fight the Americans.

Now there's a change in tone and the recruiting efforts, which is come join our state, it's a bucolic scene. Things are wonderful here, you have good pay. Sex is plentiful.

We're fighting for a cause. It seems to appeal to the millennial generation of Arabs, who want to be part of something bigger than themselves and that's what's troubling to me.

CAMEROTA: You make a great point, General, but I want to stick with you for one second because don't we need to know an exact number of fighters for the coalition to effectively fight them?

HERTLING: Well, again, this gets back to the body count discussion we had last week, Alisyn, about you know, how many are there? How many have we killed? It doesn't really matter if these are disorganized people if they are coming to jihad for the first time.

What's not considered in those numbers of 20,000 now being there, coming from different places is how many have been defeated or killed within the last week at the same time so there may be more coming in. But they've also gone into a cauldron of very intense combat.

So yes, it's concerning, the numbers are important to get a feel for your, the analysis of your enemy, but there's more important things that just straight-up numbers and we can talk about that all day long.

CAMEROTA: And let's do that, in fact, let's talk about the ideology. Daveed, I want to ask you, since that video was put out by ISIS, that hideous video of the Jordanian pilot being burned to death in a cage, has recruitment dropped off?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: It's impossible to say. Because you know, as I was talking about with the numbers before, these are people who are trying to disguise their travel route in and usually the trends in numbers are only evident over time.

I don't see evidence that it's dropped off, but at some point, I do believe that the numbers will drop off. I think the atrocities being inflicted by ISIS are not quite as relevant as how ISIS is doing on the battlefield.

I do think the atrocities are relevant and if you look at ISIS' predecessor, al Qaeda in Iraq, it ended up getting actually completely up ended in part by the atrocities it was committing.

But that was because it experienced battlefield losses based upon those atrocities in the form of uprisings against them, the (inaudible) awakening movement and the like, which ended up really destroying that organization in the 2007 to '08 period.

And likewise, when ISIS starts to experience losses on the ground, on the basis of the atrocities it's carrying out, I think that will be very weakening to that organization.

CAMEROTA: General, which one do you think is more important, their PR image or what happens on the battlefield?

HERTLING: A little bit of both. I think certainly when you talk about a campaign, Alisyn, you're talking about information operations. They had -- ISIS had the upper hand early on because they were successful in recruiting.

Now that's starting to turn on them and there is counter information operations campaign that shows, as I mentioned earlier, it is not such a bucolic scene. There is horrible fighting, there are horrible deeds being committed. There are dastardly acts, the sex is sometimes forced. At the same time they're suffering tremendously in terms of just actions on the battlefield, strategically, operationally and tactically.

So I think Daveed is exactly right, they're going to implode a little bit just like al Qaeda did. But at the same time, there is going to be a requirement to continue to push that implosion with combat operations.

CAMEROTA: OK, General Mark Hertling, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, thanks so much for all the information. Nice to see you, Gentlemen. Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn, Kayla Mueller, she was barely 26, but she had done more than most to make this world a better place. We're now learning what she was doing and saying during her captivity. And it is amazing.

We have an interview with someone who reveals so much about a woman who should be remembered for the way she lived, not the way she died.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORI LYON, KAYLA MUELLER'S AUNT: Kayla has touched the heart of the world. The world grieves with us. The world mourns with us. The world wants to be more like Kayla. And if that is her legacy and the footprint that she leaves on the world, then that is a wonderful thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: It's difficult to imagine a family going through something that is harder than this. That was Kayla Mueller's aunt, Lori Lyon, remembering her niece.

Now on Tuesday we got the news that nobody wanted to hear, ISIS sent the family photos proving that Kayla had been killed. President Obama calling the 26-year-old aid worker an outstanding young woman and a great spirit.

So what can we learn from her life and her example and just who she was as a person? Let's bring in Carol Thompson, Kayla Mueller's friend and former professor. They worked together as well on humanitarian causes.

Professor, thank you very much for joining us. I'm sorry to have to meet with you this heavy news.

CAROL THOMPSON, KAYLA MUELLER'S FORMER PROFESSOR: Thank you very much for giving voice to Kayla.

CUOMO: Well, we've talked for so long about the worst part of her life, being captive with such a horrible organization and what would cause her death ultimately. It's now time to take a look at her life so that we can remember her the right way. You come across a lot of kids doing what you do. What made Kayla special to you?

THOMPSON: Kayla was brilliant and inquisitive and very willing to explore very serious problems at multiple levels and in their complexity. And at the same time she was highly compassionate.

As she learned about the different perspectives and the major differences across cultures and religions and politics, she also was compassionate about the differences. And that -- that makes her distinctive from many other Americans, young or old.

CUOMO: I understand that point very well. It's not unusual to find a super-smart kid these days, but one whose heart is advanced as their head, is rare. One of the things that came across in one of the letters to her family is this, and I want to read it for the audience and for your take on it as the young woman that you knew.

"I've been shown in darkness, light and have learned that even in prison, one can be free. I am grateful I have come to see that there is good in every situation, sometimes we just have to look for it."

Now that is the kind of sentiment you might expect from a much older mature person, about one of the vagaries we all face in life. But not from a kid who wasn't even 24, 25 when this was happening. But in the worst circumstances anyone could imagine. What do you make of these words as a window into who she was?

THOMPSON: Well, my field is Southern Africa and I've been privileged to meet Nelson Mandela and I worked in the Anti-Apartheid Movement for almost 30 years and I would like to say Kayla is in the class of Nelson Mandela.

As expressed that letter from prison, Mandela learned Afrikaans to speak with his jailers and Kayla was learning their language and Kayla was learning how to fold the origami peace cranes.

It's that kind ever reaching out, the understanding, even of the people who are incarcerating you, and depriving you of freedom. That Allah was and that's in the class of Nelson Mandela and we need many more Americans like Kayla.

CUOMO: When you hear the rumors at this point about what ISIS was doing and that unlike with men, she may have been gifted to somebody and she may have had to be dealing with that although it didn't come across in her letter. What sense do you make of a situation like that?

THOMPSON: I think that we could imagine the worst brutalities. Prisoners are not treated well by any group. The U.S. has tortured prisoners. So yes, she faced unspeakable brutality. And I am sure stayed very strong, and as you saw from the letter, very true to who she is.

CUOMO: When you think about this, you have a beautiful quote, you say, I started as her professor, but our relationship evolved to where she was mine. How? THOMPSON: Well, I first met her when she took a class with me on Southern Africa and she very much engaged in again the complexities. Then we did work together in peace activities.

One quick example is that we worked very closely in helping to prepare the flagstaff community and the university, knowing the reintegration would be very difficult. We are peace-makers and welcoming veterans back and working with like 20 organizations.

I don't mean that it was just two people. Then the third step was when she became interested in Palestine, in Syria, in the complexities of the Middle East. About which I know nothing. I read the newspaper, I listen to CNN.

She became my professor and she very much engaged me in understanding like the various resistance groups in Syria and the interactions among them. So, yes, she became my professor.

This is over a period of about five years when we were working together and interacting. So I also kept in contact with her as she went overseas and came back.

CUOMO: What is the hardest part for you emotionally in dealing with the loss of such a special young woman?

THOMPSON: That's the hardest part. We -- I'm hoping just like the outpouring in Paris where they were referring to the "Charlie Hebdo" killings, "Je Suis Charlie," I'm hoping Americans will rise up and respond, "Je Suis Kayla, Peter, Steven," all of those executed by ISIS.

And I very much would like to say to Kayla, which she asked, where is the world? The world is here, Kayla, and we are going to work for justice with peace.

CAMEROTA: That's so beautiful. We'll hear more from Kayla Mueller's friend and professor in the next hour particularly about how her family was able to keep her captivity a secret all this time. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Welcome back to your NEW DAY. CNN Money now, we've got business correspondent, Cristina Alesci here watching the stock market. I don't get it. It goes up and down and up and down. Why?

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: This morning we have to start in Greece because investors are watching a standoff between Greece and its creditors. That's weighing on stocks around the world right now.

This morning, E.U. chiefs will discuss Greece's bailout in an emergency meeting at 11:30. Investors are clearly hoping they'll come to some sort of a deal to avoid a default or even worse an exit from the Eurozone that could have ripple effects across the world. Let's move on to oil prices. They're still falling and that means more job cuts. Halliburton is slashing up to 6400 jobs. That's a massive number about 8 percent of its work force. This is just the latest in a string of layoffs and spending cuts clearly the energy sector is a loser.

Apple this morning is the winner. It became the first American company worth $700 billion. It's a huge number, more evidence that Apple is truly in a league of its own. The stock has been climbing on record profits and iPhone sales.

Guys, remember last quarter not only did it report its biggest profit ever, but the biggest profit in corporate American history. That is huge. I'm not hearing too much out of the Apple naysayers this morning, I can tell you that.

CAMEROTA: Yes. It seems like they can do no wrong at this moment.

ALESCI: At this moment, Tim Cook is having his day in the sun.

CAMEROTA: All right, Cristina, thanks so much.

The president is expected to ask Congress today to authorize the use of military force against ISIS. Will he get approval?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)