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House Committee Debates Obama Plan; FBI Director Addressing Police Race Relations; The Fate of Female ISIS Hostages; Chief Justice Challenges Gay Marriage Ruling

Aired February 12, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

We begin this hour with the debate over the president's plan to defeat ISIS. Right now the House Foreign Affairs Committee is getting ready to discuss the growing threat of the terrorist group and, of course, the president's response asking Congress to authorize the use of force against ISIS.

In our last hour, I talked with the committee's chair, Representative Ed Royce. He says the U.S. should not lead the fight against ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ED ROYCE (R), FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: I don't know anyone on the Democratic side or the Republican side that wants to put the 82nd Airborne into Syria or Iraq. What I do know, what I do know is that the general consensus is that the offensive operations should be led by the Kurds, by the Jordanians, by the Sunni tribes, et cetera, and that there is a role here in air support, maybe some disagree with that.

But it seems to be that -- to me that 95 percent of those I speak to believe the United States should be leading a robust air campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: In Washington, though, the need for urgency is quite clear. The tentacles of ISIS have stretched across the Middle East and into North Africa. And the group's focus on propaganda and recruitment means its reach is only growing wider.

Let's talk more about this with CNN's national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.

Good morning.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Carol. You know, for all the limits in this new authorization, contained in the language the ability to go after ISIS and its close affiliates. The thing is, those affiliates, those associates are expanding far beyond Iraq and Syria. And that means the war against ISIS could expand beyond those countries as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (voice-over): ISIS fighters parade through conquered territory with dozens of vehicles in tow. But this isn't Iraq or Syria. It is Libya. As the ISIS flag waves over parts of more and more countries, the new military authorization could give President Obama and his successors the freedom to engage in more places and on the ground in a limited way.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we had actionable intelligence about a gathering of ISIL leaders and our partners didn't have the capacity to get them, I would be prepared to order our special forces to take action because I will not allow these terrorists to have a safe haven.

SCIUTTO: There are already concerns about overreach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A resolution that says that we can go after ISIL any time anywhere using any level of ground force as long as it's not an enduring offensive, that pretty much is carte blanche.

SCIUTTO: ISIS is expanding its presence beyond Iraq and Syria, to Libya. The terror group claimed responsibility for an attack on a hotel in January that killed at least 10 including an American. To the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt where dozens were killed when ISIS launched a series of suicide attacks on army and police positions. ISIS claims these photos show the explosions.

And on to Yemen where ISIS has gained some support among fighters for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

Still, on the Republican side of the aisle there is the opposite concern, about tying the hands of future presidents to fight terror groups wherever and however they decide.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: The president's point is that he wants to dismantle and destroy ISIS. I haven't seen a strategy yet that I think will accomplish that.

SCIUTTO: With the numbers of foreign fighters in Iraq and Syria growing to more than 20,000 strong, there are renewed fears that the problem could land in the West, including the U.S., in a horrific way.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, CHAIRMAN, HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: They're barbarians. And I think the barbarians are at the gate. We want to keep them outside the gate of the United States. I'm concerned that some have already returned.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Now to that question of ground troops. You look at the language in this proposed authorization, no enduring offensive ground combat operations. A lot of qualifiers there, Carol. Now we know the intention is that the president intends to show there will not be another Iraq invasion, not another Afghan invasion or occupation. But still it leaves a lot of leeway for some combat troops, some ground troops in limited combat situations. In fact, as we know, Carol, the president's own generals have said

that they may very well recommend that. In Iraq, for instance, in efforts to retake the city of Mosul and other areas. So, you know, that's something I think our viewers should prepare themselves for, American troops again being in harm's way on the ground.

COSTELLO: Jim Sciutto, many thanks.

Let's talk more about that, the president's strategy, with CNN military analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

Welcome, General.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: So do you agree with what Jim Sciutto said? Americans should prepare themselves for the possibility of, you know, a great -- a number of American troops on the ground somewhere in the Middle East?

HERTLING: Well, what I think I heard Jim say was that we should prepare ourselves for participation in combat operations in Iraq, specifically Mosul. I think the president has said that all along when the commanders come to me and say we need more forces to assist local forces, that he will consider that authority. I think the AUMF gives that potential. The focus of attention in the AUMF is to not go into large scale, long term ground combat operations, the kind that we've been involved with for the last few years with the military leading the way.

But it also says that the U.S. will support local forces in fighting their own battle. I can see that happening very easily in northern Iraq , Carol.

COSTELLO: OK. So local forces in northern Iraq. I can see that, too. But what about in other places? We've supposed to be training these moderate rebels in Syria. Right? We talk a little bit about Jordan's military. But I'm not quite sure how good their ground forces are. Are they an all-out military force or more a force to protect, you know, the king?

HERTLING: Jordan has a very good military force, both ground and air. There is currently no sustainable force right now in Syria. We're looking to address that. Jim Sciutto mentioned some other countries in the region, Yemen specifically, Libya, where local groups are now beginning to take on the banner of ISIS because they see ISIS as the new kid in town and the one that's generating so much support among the extremists.

So I think all of these areas are going to be problem areas. And truthfully, Carol, we can't be everywhere. And it's too early to dredge up old theorists like Carl von Clausewitz. But before you go to war, old German theorist Clausewitz said you not only have a strong military. We have that. You have to have the will of the people behind you. That's a little dicey right now with America. Some saying we should go in, some saying we should not. And you have to have the support of the government. This AUMF causes

the government, specifically Congress, to debate how far are we willing to go. So there aren't the issues of mission creep and boots on the ground and all those silly expressions that are thrown around. When we go, we should go for good, and the president is asking for that authority, Carol.

COSTELLO: But here's the thing, General, some people say that Democrats and Republicans won't come to any solution because, you know, both sides have problems with this proposal, right? So the debate will go on for months, nothing will ever get done, and it will seem that we're not all on the same page in America once again.

How harmful do you think that would be if that does, indeed, happen?

HERTLING: Well, I think part of the reason for the AUMF is coming to that driving part. When you commit America's sons and daughters to conflict, the government should be behind them. All this snipping back and forth between the Democrats and the Republicans, it's not very helpful for the military commanders on the ground. I've been one of those. It's very difficult to overcome some of those things.

The president as the chief executive is saying, hey, I need the support of the Congress. You guys need to work out your difficulties and come back to me and tell me if this is OK or not. And if it's not OK, give me something different. And so far they have not done that. They're still debating it. But in the meantime we're continuing the fight.

COSTELLO: All right. This is the first day of the debate. We'll see what Congress comes up with.

General Hertling, thanks as always. I appreciate it.

HERTLING: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Happening now, FBI director James Comey is publicly addressing race, more specifically the tension-filled and recently violent relationship between police and minorities.

Evan Perez is in the audience at Georgetown University. He joins us by phone.

What did he say?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, the speech is just beginning here at Georgetown University. It's a very unusual speech because this is not something that FBI directors usually address except in the context of investigations and civil rights investigations. But Comey felt that he wanted to -- that he needed to weigh in on this issue because it's obviously been on the forefront of the national discussion in the wake of Ferguson and Staten Island and other places where police shootings have raised questions about whether or not there's inherent bias in policing in this country. He's -- right now he's talking about the issue and says essentially

that, you know, cops don't go into their profession intending to the -- to be biased, but it is part of society. It is something that, you know, police have to deal with. And he's talking about a national conversation.

Now this is something that Eric Holder, the attorney general, has addressed in recent months and, as you know, has gotten a lot of backlash over because people think that perhaps he's not being sufficiently supportive of police.

Comey, as the FBI director, is lending his credibility to this issue and we'll see what the reaction is as a result of this -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. I'll get -- I'll let you get back to the speech.

Evan Perez reporting live from Washington this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a shocker about an executed American hostage. Why intelligence officers are investigating if Kayla Mueller was paired with an ISIS leader.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Stunning new claims about the 18 months U.S. aid worker Kayla Mueller spent as an ISIS hostage. U.S. intelligence officials say Mueller may have been paired with a male ISIS fighter during her captivity, adding that it's unclear if she was coerced, sold or forced into that pairing.

But the National Security Council calls these reports, quotes, "speculative and unproven," noting that the government is still analyzing the conditions of her captivity.

My next guest has spoken to more than 40 women and girls who were former ISIS prisoners. They were members of Iraq's Yazidi minority who were targeted for persecution by ISIS last summer. During the brutal campaign many of these women were subjected to rape and other sexual violence, and were often forced to convert to Islam.

Joining me now by phone from Yemen is Donatella Rovera. She is a senior crisis response advisor for Amnesty International.

Welcome, Donatella.

DONATELLA ROVERA, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL (via telephone): Hi.

COSTELLO: First of all, you are in Yemen. The government has fallen there, rebels are in control. They chased out Americans from the U.S. embassy there. Are you safe?

ROVERA: Yes. Actually the situation here for now is far less dramatic that one here outside. The situation is calm. There were pro and against government demonstrations yesterday. They passed peacefully. I am out and about all day in the capital. I've been up north and down south of the country. And for now the situation is fine. There is a great deal of uncertainty. We don't know what will happen tomorrow or in the next five minutes. But for now it's safe.

COSTELLO: What are you most concerned about?

ROVERA: In relation to the situation here?

COSTELLO: Yes.

ROVERA: Well, I mean, obviously there is a situation of great uncertainty because, you know, there is now a formal rebel group that is in charge of the capital and other parts of the country. It's a different story in the south. It's a different story in the east of the country where al Qaeda is very strong. So everybody is armed. There are armed groups of various denominations.

At the moment there are political negotiations of sorts going on. Anything could happen. This country has seen many years of conflict. There is obviously a danger that conflict may spread to a greater extent --

COSTELLO: Right.

ROVERA: -- than what we've seen until now.

COSTELLO: Right. And I know you're keeping your eye on human rights violations and, of course, trying to prevent them.

I wanted to specifically talk to you today about these 40 women and girls who were former ISIS prisoners that you personally talked to. What was life like for them with ISIS?

ROVERA: For -- well, for all of them, they were kept in extremely difficult situation. Some of them had seen their brothers and fathers and husbands being killed in front of them when they were taken captive at the beginning of August. They were then held in different places within Iraq and in Syria. Some of them were taken to Syria. Many of them were passed on or given as a gift or sold to other ISIS fighters or to other men who were sympathetic, who were supporters of ISIS in both Iraq and Syria.

Some were sort of forced to marry, so to speak, some of the fighters. Some was raped -- were raped. Many of them were beaten and subjected to other forms of torture including sexual abuse. They were threatened. Some were told that if they committed suicide, their relatives who were also in ISIS captivity would be killed because some of the girls told me that they wanted to commit suicide to -- because they saw that as the only possibility to escape the absolute hell and horror that they were going through.

But they were deterred from doing so because they were told that if they did so their family members would be harmed. Some of the girls told me that another girl who was held captive with them did commit suicide, and I heard that from several of the women and girls who were detained. So, you know, it's unimaginable the horror that they endured during

their time in captivity. And of course, the overwhelming majority of the women and girls who were abducted last August remain in ISIS captivity. Those who have managed to get away are a minority for now.

COSTELLO: Are we paying enough attention to this part of this terrible situation with ISIS?

ROVERA: I think there is a reasonable amount of attention. What we're all at a loss for is knowing what concretely can be done to stop and prevent the atrocities that are being committed every day against ordinary civilians by ISIS fighters in Iraq and in Syria. They are in control of very large parts of Syria and Iraq where their rule for the time being is unchallenged. The civilian population that is living under their rule cannot do anything.

They cannot escape, they cannot physically get out of those areas. And they are totally at their mercy, so all they can do is to try and keep a low profile and hope that, you know, some deliverance will come. But frankly, when I speak to people in Syria and in Iraq in the areas that are controlled by ISIS, people are very helpless because --

COSTELLO: Right.

ROVERA: There is not very much that they can do to protect themselves and their families.

COSTELLO: All right, Donatella Rovera, stay safe. And thank you so much for being with me.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: By order of a federal court, same-sex marriage became legal in Alabama on Monday. To say it's not sitting well with the state's chief justice, Roy Moore, would be an understatement.

You might remember Moore issued an order forbidding judges to give marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Judge Moore spoke in depth with Chris Cuomo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JUSTICE RAY MOORE, ALABAMA SUPREME COURT: What you're confusing is law with an opinion of a justice. And that's the basic fallacy which all this is built upon.

What did one lone judge in Alabama federal court says is not law. If it were law, then the United States Supreme Court wouldn't be meeting to determine this issue in April through June.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: Two things, your honor. First, this appeal for a stay went all the way to the Supreme Court. The stay was denied. That is the Supreme Court saying follow the district court order, which is what is telling your state to allow the marriages.

And as you know, the history of your state very well, better than I, district courts are often the tool for change, let's say, with segregation. If your state hadn't followed those district court orders, you may still be in a different position legally. Your response?

MOORE: Well, what you're saying is the injunction was not lifted. It remains in effect. And that injunction applied only to the attorney general of the state, not the probate courts of Alabama. Indeed, that's the difficulty in this camp by the federal court to control the state of Alabama in its federal intrusion and state sovereignty.

Even she admitted after that fact that she had no right, no power, no authority to intrude into the probate court of Mobile County and Probate Court judge Don Davis.

CUOMO: She did not have to because the district court, by ordering the attorney general to effectuate the marriages, was reaching out to the top law enforcement official. I would offer that you are drawing a distinction without a difference, your honor, because probate judges are functionaries.

It is not necessary to reach out to them. It is necessary to reach out to the top law enforcement officer and that's what was done by the district court.

MOORE: That's incorrect, sir. You want to keep deep into the doctrine of -- the young doctrine in 1908. And that attorney general did not have the function of the probate courts. In fact, he stated that very clearly in his affidavits. That power over the probate courts is under the administrative direction of the chief justice of the Supreme Court, and that's myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. The issue will go to the U.S. Supreme Court later this year. We'll see what happens.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the cease-fire is coming, but some of the front lines in Ukraine plan to keep fighting. So is the deal doomed to fail? We'll talk about that next.

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