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N.C. Victim's Dad: Couple Had Run-Ins with Suspect; Former Sony Chief Defends Paying Women Less; Remembering CBS Correspondent Bob Simon; Cease-Fire Deal Reached in Ukraine

Aired February 12, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let me bring you back to my thought before we went to the White House. We were talking about the three Muslim students who were shot in death in North Carolina. Their families insisting that hate played a role in their death.

Back with me is Kami Simmons, professor of law at Wake Forest, a hate crime expert.

I believe my question was, essentially, police are investigating this as a possible hate crime. Who are they talking to, what are they looking at to determine if, in fact, it was?

KAMI CHAVIS SIMMONS, DIRECTOR OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROGRAM, WAKE FOREST UNIVERSITY: Thank you, Brooke. I would just say that communities all across North Carolina are mourning the tragic death of these three students, and our hearts go out to them. Police officers at this point, who would they be speaking to? In terms of being able to prove whether or not this was a hate crime or a bias-motivated crime, the prosecutors would have to show the motive, would have to show that Craig Hicks killed these three students because of their religion or race, ethnicity. And so in order to do that, police would be talking to anyone affiliated with Craig Hicks. What we would want to know about that is whether or not he was -- was he a member of any group that espoused any hatred related to these groups? Did he write in his diary -- we have these on-line posts that he made generally about various groups. But they're trying to see if there was a motive, if he killed them because of their religion. So I think also talking to people who had spoken to these three students about anything that they may have said about him. Did he use slurs against them, racial slurs against them, those types of things?

BALDWIN: Here's the thing. There are two very different stories here, two very different narratives. When you look at the suspect and his side, he's got no record. We've heard from his ex-wife. She's standing by him confident that this has nothing to do with any kind of bias. The family has never seen that. The family says definitely there was hate. Trouble started when one of the victims was wearing a head scarf and moved in, and I guess my question is, these are the facts. This is what police can gain. But how do they crawl inside this man's heart and mind to determine, really, what he was thinking or feeling.

SIMMONS: What you are talking about is the proof of violence-related crimes. It's very difficult for prosecutors to do that. You most often won't have a confession from someone saying, I killed this person because they were black or because they were Muslim. It's very difficult. We have to look at a lot of the circumstantial evidence. You might have a suspect saying, I'm going to go out today. I feel like committing a crime against this group or that group. That can be used as evidence. It's a very difficult burden.

BALDWIN: A very high burden, as you point out.

Kami Simmons, thanks again.

We'll stay on the story. We'll stay on the investigation. I'm talking to family members of the victims next hour. Thank you.

Coming up next, fired Sony executive, Amy Pascal, making some pretty provocative comments about gender equality and the pay gap.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMY PASCAL, FORMER SONY EXECUTIVE: I run a business. People want to work for less money, I'll pay them less money. I don't call them up and say, can I give you some more, because that's not what you do when you run a business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She's talking specifically. What do you think? A smart business move? Is it discrimination? Could this apply to women generally in careers? We'll have a big, old discussion. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: She is one of those powerful women in Hollywood, but the former head of Sony, the one who was hacked, admits to paying women less, and is defending it, women like superstar Jennifer Lawrence. I'm talking about Amy Pascal who just stepped as the co-chair of Sony Pictures. She's speaking out about the emails that landed her in hot water. She said she knew that the fallout from last year's hacking would be bad. One memo mocked President Obama's movie preference. Another sent by a producer called Angelina Jolie, quote, "minimally talented."

But a big revelation, actresses are paid less than male stars. This is how Amy Pascal put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PASCAL: This is a business. People want to make less money, I'll pay them less money. I don't call them up and say, can I give you some more, because that's not what you do when you run a business. The truth is, what women have to do is not work for less money. They have to walk away. People shouldn't be so grateful for jobs. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. I've got three ladies joining me now. Rachel Sklar is with me in New York. I've also got comedienne, Judy Gold. And in Los Angles, "Vanity Fair's" Krista Smith, also a CNN entertainment commentator.

Ladies, welcome.

Krista, to you first.

In facts and figures, can you talk to me about how much more would a Bradley Cooper get paid than a Jennifer Lawrence?

KRISTA SMITH, "VANITY FAIR" & CNN ENTERTAINMENT COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it depends on the project, but we all know it's true that women make less money than men in Hollywood. It's been that case now for decades. The problem, really that Amy went on to address is that there are no parts for women. There is a lot less opportunities for the actresses. So when a part comes along like "American Hustle," which is an excellent role for Amy Adams or for Jennifer Lawrence, it's very hard to walk away from that.

The bigger issue is, where are all the parts for women when you're not just the girl in the movie, when you really are the lead, the protagonist. That's another discussion that needs to happen.

I think she also touched on that, about creating another all-female "Ghostbusters," and maybe we're headed in the direction where there could actually be equal pay.

BALDWIN: I talked to comediennes in the past who say we should be able to crack the same kinds of jokes these guys do. That's a whole other discussion.

Speaking of comedy, Judy, my question to you, my friend, I have to imagine when you start out in stand-up, you're making like peanuts. And you --

JUDY GOLD, COMEDIENNE: A little -- just the shell.

BALDWIN: Just the shell in peanuts.

GOLD: Yes. Yes.

Then you work your way up like you have, and you do all right.

GOLD: Right.

BALDWIN: At what point in time did you ever stand up to, say, somebody booking you for a comedy spot and say, listen, you need to pay me what you're paying him.

GOLD: We don't really know what the --

(CROSSTALK) GOLD: And I don't think Jennifer knew that either. I'm at the point now I'm not going to lose, so sorry, if you want me, this is what you have to pay. But I believe they don't know, and I also believe women don't ask for what they deserve. There is something in their psyche. You know, this is such a great opportunity, I'm going to do this.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Why are we like that?

GOLD: It's incredible. I have no idea.

RACHEL SKLAR, FOUNDER, THE LIST: It's not quite something that's innate to women. It is something that is drummed into women.

BALDWIN: Right.

SKLAR: When women do try to negotiate on their own behalf, the penalties are harsher.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Whinny. Aggressive.

GOLD: But you know what? They have representation who most likely are male. And those agents know what everyone else is getting.

SKLAR: That's really what the issue is here. This is symptomatic of a system that's very broken and now it symptomatic of all the systems.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLD: -- into Hollywood. But, yeah.

SKLAR: But Asians -- Asians should be insensitive to have parodies and what they're given because they get a cut.

BALDWIN: To your point about when a woman says, I think, I don't know what X would be making, a male counterpart, but I would like to have more. I think the perception is difficult if I were to bang on a desk versus --

(CROSSTALK)

GOLD: If a guy banks on the desk, he's a strong -- yeah, that's right, I'm going to -- that woman is a bitch. A woman who sticks up for herself is known as a bitch and someone who you can't sort of approach. They're unapproachable. Look at Amy Pascal.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLD: Amy Pascal was fired. She went to this talk and said, you know what, I was fired. There was no husband standing next to her while she gave a speech of shame. There was nothing. It was, "I got fired, let's move on." BALDWIN: I thought it was interesting of you, too, Krista, she also

said, you know what, it's great for her to put it out there for the world to see.

SMITH: I think her point was made, too. She did say I paid Jennifer Lawrence a lot more money since then. Certainly the accolades Jennifer got from that film, she's a huge superstar. But, yes, the emails, there isn't one person that has written an email that if it were published they wouldn't regret. So I did think it was interesting that she addressed that and she was so candid. And, also, Rachel, I think it's interesting she chose to talk about this in San Francisco where there is all this tech about the tech world. Where were you there? I think it opens up a whole conversation.

SKLAR: There's a whole conversation about this. It is not done, by a long shot. It definitely implicates the tech world and it implicates all of industry.

GOLD: Look at Dominique Strauss-Kahn, called women "equipment" today. He's still well respected.

(CROSSTALK)

SKLAR: But he has power.

GOLD: He has power. He has power. And these men, they retire in shame. They don't admit this. I give her kudos for saying, you know what, I admit it.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I agree.

GOLD: She said, OK, this is what happened.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLD: And why didn't anyone else get fired?

SKLAR: Let's don't forget the Sony hacking crisis was a company wide thing. It was about how Sony handled it. "The Interview" ended up doing well. They got lucky. But when you think, at the beginning --

BALDWIN: Right.

SKLAR: -- Sony was in this panic-driven force. They seemed to have no repercussions for the men.

GOLD: And they went right to her.

BALDWIN: They went right to her.

Final thought, Krista. Go ahead. Go for it.

SMITH: I think the reason why that happened is she was the victim of the emails. People were reading all of her e-mails. And she's head of a publicly traded company. And I think that's where she took a lot of the heat.

Amy Pascal is very trusted, very well loved. I think she's going to do a lot of good things moving on. It did. It was an unprecedented situation, and now I'm just wondering whether every student had us downloading Snapchat so they're not --

(LAUGHTER)

SMITH: This is going to be something that I don't think is being ended. Once it happens one, when is it going to happen again?

BALDWIN: Everybody buys. Snapchat stock is about to go through the roof.

Krista Smith, Rachel Sklar, Judy Gold, thank you very much, ladies.

(CROSSTALK)

I want to see you in comedy very soon.

GOLD: Oh, you're in.

BALDWIN: All right, have to move on to some really sad news to report today. He was a giant in the journalism world, one of the true old school news journalists with a capital J. "60 Minutes" Bob Simon died last night in a car accident here in New York, and when you just look at his career, it spanned five decades beginning with the Vietnam War, and he was held by Iraqi forces for 40 days. This is a man who won 27 Emmys for his reporting, his writing style and the passion for the people he covered. He was unmatched.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB SIMON, CBS CORRESPONDENT: And steps are being wheeled up to a plane bearing the words "The Arab Republic of Egypt." Will miracles never cease?

Which was one of the two or three biggest stories I've ever covered.

It's just about the right about of breeze this morning to bring the flags alive, the flags of Egypt and Israel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to hear it?

SIMON: I want to hear what you have to say.

I knew the names of almost all these men, their names and their deeds. I never thought I would be standing a few inches from them having a chat.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: How long were you captive for?

SIMON: 40 days.

We were very restricted. We couldn't go anywhere without a U.S. military escort. This desolate road is destined to become a main battleground.

And we saw a jeep in the distance and it was an Iraqi army jeep, and they took us away.

And we eventually wound up in the secret police headquarters and treated very badly.

They asked -- whenever we went to a new place, they asked us, where are you from, and one said Nicaragua, and that was good; one said Cuba, and that was great; Peter said Britain, and that was bad; I said America, and that was horrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bob Simon is survived by his wife, Francois, his daughter, Tonya, who also works as a producer for CBS and "60 Minutes." Bob Simon was 73 years old.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: One of NBA's legends is getting the last-minute invite to Sunday's all-star game. He is Dirk Nowitzki. He'll get the last spot on the squad due to an injury to Antony Davis. This is the German's 13th appearance in the all-star game in the past 14 years. He is the highest-scoring player born outside the United States in NBA history. All the action begins tonight on TNT, our sister network.

Breaking now on CNN, reports ISIS fighters are overrunning the Western Iraq town of el Baghdadi, and that could endanger U.S. Marines stationed at a nearby air base. Our breaking news, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A new cease-fire deal for Ukraine took 17 hours of tense negotiations. Everyone involved agrees on this one point, there is a long way to go before this bloody conflict ends.

Let me run through just key parts of the deal. First, the cease-fire will begin Sunday at midnight for both pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian forces. Two, both sides must withdraw heavy weapons from the front lines within two weeks. Three, both sides must release all hostages. Of course, a real cease-fire in Ukraine depends on actions on the ground, not merely words on a piece of paper.

Let me bring in Fiona Hill. She's a co-author of "Mr. Putin, Operative in Kremlin."

Fiona, welcome.

FIONA HILL, AUTHOR: Thank you.

BALDWIN: The last cease-fire didn't stick. Who is to say this one will?

HILL: I think that's the right perception over this deal, wondering whether it will, indeed, stick. The last agreement was in September, and obviously, many months of carnage and fighting on the ground have come since then. What we have to do is think about this as an interim step, as yet another agreement to try to bring an end to fighting on the ground that we can then use as a basis for further negotiations. This agreement seems to have an awful lot of provisions for dialogue and for future agreements about the status of these territories within Ukraine, about the future configuration of Ukraine itself, but I think we're very far away from any kind of final status, final agreement about how Ukraine will look.

BALDWIN: I wanted to talk to you. You've been studying Russian politics for decades. One of the things that jumped out at me was it was Vladimir Putin that we heard from first in this post-agreement. It wasn't Angela Merkel, which made me wonder if he feels he came out on top on this deal. How did you read that?

HILL: Well, if you look actually at some of the terms of the agreement, and it was a bit hard to pin those down today, but if you look at it in terms of the Russian text that I just looked up before I came here, it's certain that the preponderance of responsibility is being put on Ukraine and the government of Kiev. There is a lot about what they need to do and less about what the other government needs to do, but if Putin is out there touting as some agreement that he and those around him have gathered, it's obviously clear, too, that Russia is stepping back for any kind of real responsibility. It very focused than the troops on the ground in the dumbass region.

BALDWIN: A question posed was how do you deal with someone if you can't understand them at all. And you co-wrote this book that had everything to do with Putin, and you had to update it recently because so much has evolved and changed. In this article, you write, in the first part of your book, we had chicken with the Russian Republic, now we have him playing chicken with all of us. What did you mean by that?

HILL: We were basically in a standoff where Putin has laid out certain things he wants to see, Russian's position defended, Russia having a veto over things that effect his interest. He's daring us to stop him from pushing forward with those positions.

BALDWIN: A dare.

HILL: The game of chicken has being conducted in Ukraine. This is a proxy war that is being fought by the Ukrainian government that Putin see as really standing up in the West and by rebels on the ground in the Donbass, some of whom, it must be said, are fighting for their own reasons because they're not happy about what happened in Ukraine by any stretch over the last standing. But it's also standing in for Russia. So there's Russia out there. It's the question of who blinks first about the carnage and amounts of casualties on the ground. It's a difficult situation to deal with. We'll have to acknowledge there's no simple solution. Disagreement will be one of many. We've already have one in September. We have a long way to go. We'll have to recognize, at least on our part, that this game of chicken is being played at the expense of the Ukrainian public. And we have to take this responsibility ourselves to recognize that whatever we do, whatever we decide in these interim steps, people's lives are at stake here. And so --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: 5,000 dead, so many more injured, people fleeing their homes.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Exactly.

BALDWIN: Yeah, Fiona Hill --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Yes. Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: Thank you. We'll have this conversation again, I have a feeling. The cease-fire is supposed to take effect February 15th.

HILL: Yes.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

HILL: We'll keep focused on it. Thanks.

BALDWIN: Let's roll along. Hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.