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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Eddie Ray Routh Trial; FBI Investigating North Carolina Shootings; Brian Williams' Stories Under Scruitny

Aired February 13, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: FBI agents now on the case in the execution style killings of three North Carolina college students. Did Muslim head dresses and hatred of their religion motivate a killer?

Also, dramatic dash cam video in the American sniper trial. Jurors get a front row seat to the accused killer's police chase and hear his haunting words questioning his own sanity in the moments just after the shooting.

And, if you like Brian Williams' Iraq War stories, you're probably going to love his tales about the mission with the SEAL team known as SEAL Team 6. And there's a pretty good one, too, about the pope and the Berlin Wall, too. The question is, are they true?

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield, and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Voodoo, the apocalypse and taking souls, they are bizarre references from the man who gunned down ex-Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and they're taking center stage in the American sniper trial. When officers tracked down Eddie Ray Routh, seen here, just after the shooting, he made some very disturbing statements and he even questioned his own state of mind, his own sanity, saying, this is his quote here, "I don't know if I'm going insane. "

As jurors saw this dash cam video, Routh did not go quietly into police custody after the killing. He drove off in the truck that he stole from Chris Kyle and a chase ensued. He reached speeds of up to 100 miles per hour. And at one point in the video, you could see a police car try to slam into the truck to slow him down, take him down, but it doesn't work and Eddie Ray Routh just kept on going until this point. He's eventually stopped. He surrenders to police after an officer uses stop sticks or metal spikes to puncture the tires.

I want to bring in CNN's Ed Lavandera, who was in court this morning, and our legal experts, CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos, and also HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

So, Ed, first to you with the reporting on today's action in court. Anything more to add to the story that came out that was so alarming about that flight?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, all of these details are really kind of pictures and moments of what happened on that day that Chris Kyle was killed that we've never seen or heard of in the two years since these murders took place. One of the ones that really stood out yesterday was that after the shootings took place at that countryside gun range, that Chris Kyle had gone to a Taco Bell and ordered a burrito before driving back to his sister's house and then on to his house as well. But what we've learned in court this morning is detectives and law enforcement officials that were there at the scene, the moments that Eddie Ray Routh was arrested, and then the search warrants that were carried out. And if you remember, some of the details that they've been telling the jury today was some of the things they've found inside the house, which include, quote, glass pipes that are consistent with meth use, also ammunition that was found in Eddie Ray Routh's home closet. Of course, remember all of this is important because what prosecutors will be detailing here, and we imagine it will get much more into this as the trial continues, is that they're pointing to recreational drug use and drug abuse and alcohol abuse as being more of a contributing factor to what drove Eddie Ray Routh to commit these murders where you have the defense attorney saying that there's a long history of mental health issues and prescription drugs that were given to him for all of this. So a lot of this starting to get really into play and into focus here as this case moves along.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Ed Lavandera covering this case for us live in Texas.

I want to bring in our legal questions here, but wait a minute, I was all prepared to ask you about these incredibly bizarre statements that he made to the police until Ed just said that they found evidence of the use of meth. Now we're talking hardcore drugs. Does that change the whole metric for an insanity defense, Joey?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it certainly could because, remember, what the defense is claiming is that it's his psychiatric history. It's the fact that he went and he went overseas and he fought in Iraq and he saw things that he wasn't prepared to see. And the humanitarian mission as well. And he was in these hospital and had failed him.

Now, in the event that you can't establish that it was a psychiatric and mental history but instead it was recreational drug use that added into the equation --

BANFIELD: And not just drug use, meth use.

JACKSON: Right, if it was meth use, then, of course, that changes the dynamic because -- similar to voluntary intoxication, you get drunk and you go do something, that's not a defense to what you do. Drug use and you're high, it certainly --

BANFIELD: It doesn't even mitigate what you do.

JACKSON: In fact, it can get it worse because people shouldn't be doing drugs is the -- you know, is the norm and the custom by the court. And so the jury is going to have to figure out, under all the facts and circumstances, Ashleigh, was it the meth and drug use or was it his psychiatric and mental state of mind? BANFIELD: OK, let's talk about that psychiatric and mental state of

mind. Danny, these statements, I've got to put them up on the screen because you need to see them to really feel them. These are the things he said to the police while he was being arrested in that video. The video is silent and apologize for that. The reason it is, the evidentiary rules and the rules of this courtroom are difficult to get the actual clips. "I don't know if I'm going insane." One comment that he made. How about this next one? And they go on and on. He told the police he had "taken a couple of souls." Instead of, I killed some people, I've taken a couple of souls. "Is it voodoo that's upon us?" "Is the apocalypse upon us right now?" These are the kinds of things where you cannot imagine that Eddie Ray Routh was actually trying to set the foundation for his insanity defense two years later.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: If I'm the prosecutor, I'm actually going to argue exactly what you just said. Now, remember, if I'm the prosecution, my approach is going to be, take these statements. They're completely self-serving. A man is not insane simply because he declares that he is insane. So look instead at his behavior.

You saw a video. He fled from the police. Juries, that shows you that not only -- regardless of what he said about being insane, he was aware that his behavior was deemed by society to be illegal. Why? Because he fled from the guys who are supposed to arrest you when you do illegal things. So --

BANFIELD: But what if you think they're demons coming after you? He said --

JACKSON: That's going to --

CEVALLO: And yet --

BANFIELD: He said that comment --

CEVALLOS: That's a helpful statement.

BANFIELD: And I'll tell you, he says, I can feel everybody feeding on my soul. And that's the only reason I want to play devil's advocate here. Yes, if he's flee from police and trying to get across state lines and run for help, I get it. But if he's fleeing from people feeding on his soul, this certainly speaks to an insanity defense.

JACKSON: Right.

CEVALLOS: Here's the test for insanity in Texas. So I ask everyone, just apply it yourself. Ask yourself if you think he is insane. And the test is this. Does the defendant -- was he aware that society deems his conduct illegal? Even though, as a result of a mental defect, he may personally believe that what he did was morally justified. If you answer that question, yes, he knew it was illegal, then that's as far as you need to go in Texas.

JACKSON: But his -- go ahead.

BANFIELD: But, Joey, if he's running from demons, he doesn't necessarily know anything he's done is wrong.

JACKSON: And that's the problem because the prosecution will point out, to make Danny's argument, of course, that it's consciousness of guilt. When you're running away, you know what you did is wrong and that's why you're running. However, if you're running because you're paranoid, you're schizophrenic, you're under the influence of some post-traumatic stress disorder, it makes you insane.

BANFIELD: Psychosis.

JACKSON: It doesn't make you guilty.

BANFIELD: All right, we're going to continue on this story and I can't wait to hear what the rest of the evidence is today.

JACKSON: Oh, boy.

BANFIELD: Because each time we hear someone from the stand, it's remarkable.

Guys, stay put, if you will.

One hundred and fifty civil rights and faith groups are now urging the federal government to declare the Muslim student killings in North Carolina as a hate crime. But will that work? What else will it take? What is the bar for getting that to actually happen? You're going to get the legal view on the FBI investigation, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Family members and shocked Muslims call it a hate crime. The FBI now opening a preliminary inquiry into the murders of three Muslim students in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And today, 150 civil rights and faith groups wrote a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder asking for a federal hate crime investigation. So far the police say it looks like the shooting was over a parking dispute. But that does not sit well with those who are close to the victims. Two of their best friends spoke with our Alisyn Camerota on NEW DAY this morning and she asked them if they believe their friends were targeted because they were Muslim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADA SALEM, VICTIMS' FRIEND: I'm not sure. I can't -- I don't know, you know, the guy was thinking. But I don't -- I think it's weird that all three of them were Muslim and that this happened after she moved in. So I really don't know what he was thinking. I just -- I don't know.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": Amira, what do you think?

AMIRA ATA, YUSOR MOHAMMAD'S FRIEND: After being with her parents for the past few days, and seeing so many things and knowing what kind of people Yusor, Deah and Razan were, it just -- seems like it is because, I mean, they were the only people that were shot in the neighborhood. And, I mean, if he went and maybe killed all the neighbors, maybe then we can be like, oh, he has an issue. But it -- they were our friends, and we feel like they were targeted for some type of reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: From what we're learning about the suspect, here he is, Craig Hicks, he's definitely not a fan of any religion it seems. Jason Carroll went through his Facebook page and what he found definitely shed some light on this very subject.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In Chapel Hill, at the apartment complex where three Muslims were murdered Tuesday night, police going door to door as part of their investigation.

CARROLL (on camera): Hi there. Can we ask you guys how the investigation is going so far?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just can say we're just canvassing. And that's all we're doing at the moment.

CARROLL (voice over): Flowers in front of the apartment where the victims lived, 23-year-old Deah Barakat, his 21-year-old wife Yusor, and her 19-year-old sister Razan, who was visiting that day. Their neighbor, Craig Hicks, now facing three counts of first-degree murder. Police say their preliminary investigation shows the deaths may have been the result of an ongoing dispute over parking. One neighbor says Hicks had a reputation of being a hothead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have seen and heard him be very unfriendly to a lot of people in this community. Equal opportunity anger.

CARROLL: Another neighbor saying parking was an issue addressed by building management.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm assuming there's parking issues, so the -- I guess the association -- I guess the condo association released this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not about parking. The whole world is looking in on social media and they know what it's about.

CARROLL: The 46-year-old suspect had been attending Durham Technical Community College studying to be a paralegal. The school's spokesman described him as an exemplary student who spending much of his time helping teachers and other students. But Hicks' ex-wife described him in a much different way. According to the Associated Press, the two divorced about 17 years ago. She said his favorite movie was "Falling Down." A movie about a man who goes on a violent rampage. She said he thought it was hilarious. He had no compassion at all.

CARROLL (on camera): Investigators have confiscated the suspect's computer, which was located in his apartment. They're trying to determine if he had any anti-Muslim leanings. A law enforcement source telling CNN, the suspect told police he went into a blind rage after he saw a car allegedly belonging to one of the victims parked in his spot.

CARROLLL (voice over): Hicks' Facebook page did not appear to show him targeting Muslim. There were anti-religious posts. One reads, "atheists for equality." And this quote, "people say nothing can solve the Middle East problem, not mediation, not arms, not financial aid. I say there is something, atheism." And on January 20th he posted this picture with the caption, "yes, that is one pound, 5.1 ounces from my loaded .38 revolver." And in another post he defends Muslims and criticizes Christians who were opposed to a planned mosque near Ground Zero writing, quote, "seems an overwhelming majority of Christians in this country feel that the Muslims are using the Ground Zero mosque plans to mark their conquest. Bunch of hypocrites."

Jason Carroll, CNN, Raleigh, North Carolina.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So, there is a very high threshold to be convicted of a hate crime. You can be a racist. You can be a misogamist. And certainly you can just be hateful in general. But you can still commit a crime that doesn't have the hate attached to it. It's a little bit complex, but in the end, it's actually kind of clear. I want to bring in the legal view here with HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson and CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos.

I think a lot of people, they think, if you're a hateful person and you commit a crime, it's a no-brainer. But it isn't that simple.

JACKSON: No, it's not that simple because what you do has to be motivated by that hate. And like any case, Ashleigh, the result is driven by what the facts were. And so, indeed, the FBI, in investigating the case, and we should remind people there's a parallel investigation. The state is certainly pursuing the murder charges and the federal government has been brought in to pursue the federal hate charges. But in accessing that, you've got to look at the surrounding circumstances. What actually -- and you see the definition there, right?

BANFIELD: Yes, so this is what I was wondering. I mean this is sort of the checklist that they go with, right, motivated by bias against race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, gender identity. Comments, drawings, objects used either during the commission of a crime or around it. The community believes the crime was motivated by bias and that some animosity existed between the suspect and the victim. But does that mean -- let's just say this guy was very hateful towards all sorts of religions and ended up committing a crime of rage and maybe had some statements on his Facebook page about his hatred, but that didn't apply to that particular crime, or you can't find evidence it did.

JACKSON: What motivated the actions? Was there a past history between him and this family? Did he make any statements during the past history, if any, with the family, in addition to the Facebook comments? Does it make sense that he would have shot them in the head over a parking space? What else is there out there that would drive this to be viewed as, in a common sense purpose, was it perceived or actual, right, actions that were predicated upon his hate?

BANFIELD: So, for instance, Danny, this fella had said lots of things about lots of different kinds of people on Facebook. He actually, at one point, supported Muslims and said that Christians were off their rocker for mounting this battle against Muslims over the 9/11 mosque. And so, effectively, he proclaims himself an atheist who hates organized religion. So if he hates a lot of religions, can this still be a hate crime against one religion? Does that make sense?

CEVALLOS: You've zeroed in on exactly the problem with hate crimes, which are, in theory, a great idea. But in practice, they create many problems when it comes to burden of proof because how are you going to establish that somebody had a particular motive? Not intent. Remember, motive is not the same as intent. And what hate crimes do is they graft motive into the definition of a crime. Why you did what you did.

So then you have cases -- and I've seen several of these, Joey, where you have, say, an aggravated assault. Somebody beats someone within an inch of their lives and the entire time suppose that they're shouting, you jerk, you jerk, no hate crime. But just suppose the slightest difference, now they're shouting maybe the n-word or the f-word or any of these racially charged words, those words alone, that choice of words right there, may be evidentiary speaking, what aggravates or what bumps it up to a higher penalty.

Now, as a society, if we're comfortable with that, then OK. But, from an evidence standpoint, it does create a rather interesting set of fact patterns that are

separated by just maybe one or two words.

BANFIELD: Right.

JACKSON: Hard to get in anybody's mind. The bottom line is, we all have common sense. We ask jurors every day to use it.

BANFIELD: Right.

JACKSON: Why do you think this was done? And if they feel it was done, not over a parking space but over someone's religion, I think that certainly the federal government would have the ability to prosecute this successfully.

BANFIELD: All right, Danny and Joey, stick around, if you would. Thank you for that.

Thought you'd heard it all before from Brian Williams? Apparently not even close. The adventures with the Navy SEALs and the pope, well, are they adventures or are they just stories? This is a tricky one, folks. The details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Unless you are on the witness stand or involved in a police interrogation room, you can pretty much get away with telling stories that don't stick 100 percent to the fact. But note one very important thing, you can get away with it. People in my business, no. Not at all. And that is why you may never see Brian Williams in a NBC anchor chair again if this story really does play out the way some think it may. The network says it's, quote, "nowhere near done" checking the dubious Brian Williams' reports and anecdotes for accuracy. And while that process is private, more of Brian Williams' potentially tall tales again from guest spots on "The David Letterman Show" are coming to light.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: I flew into Baghdad, invasion plus three days, on a blackout mission at night with elements of SEAL Team 6 and I was told not to make any eye contact with them or initiate any conversation. It was like horses in the gate right before a mission. This guy had a wristband with his human target that he was after when we landed. It was of one of the members of the deck of cards, one of the leadership targets. They are amped. This is the best we have.

And until he reached into my box of Wheat Thins, my last remaining American food, it could have been a Wheat Thin commercial. Because this hand the size of a canned ham goes in and I lost half of my net supply of Wheat Thins. But then I chatted him up and admired a knife as part of his utility belt.

DAVID LETTERMAN, LATE NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST: Right.

WILLIAMS: Darned it if that knife didn't show up at my office a couple of weeks later.

LETTERMAN: Oh, man.

WILLIAMS: About six week after the bin Laden raid, I got a white envelope. And in it was a thank you note, unsigned, and attached to it was a piece of the fuselage, the fuselage from the blown up Blackhawk in that courtyard. And I don't know how many pieces survived.

LETTERMAN: Wow.

WILLIAMS: But I --

LETTERMAN: Sent to you by one of the --

WILLIAMS: Yes, one of my friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So the claim is that he flew with SEAL Team 6 while they were horses at the gate ready to take out their human targets on a mission. And that someone on that SEAL team gave him one of their knives that they had in their utility belt and that a piece of the helicopter from the bin Laden takedown, the one that exploded at the bin Laden compound, he was given that anonymously. So we asked a nine- year veteran of the Navy SEALs whether those claims can pass the smell test.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HOWARD WASDIN, FORMER NAVY SEAL: These guys were ready to hit the ground hot and the last thing you're going to do when you want to hit the ground hot is be babysitting. And that's no reflection on any imbedded reporters. But I can tell you this, I've got 300 military, ex-military patients, thousands of combat vet, motorcycle association people who I've spoken to and nobody has ever said, you know what, we really loved our embedded reporter so much that we gave him tokens of our esteem because he was just so great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: CNN's senior media correspondent, who has not had a moment of rest since the beginning of this, Brian Stelter, joining me now.

I want to ask you something. Instead of just piling on to Brian Williams at this point, I want to ask, when you're telling stories like that on a network entertainment program like David Letterman, where is NBC's responsibility in all of this? When you hear him say, I flew with SEAL Team 6 on dates that aren't the dates that he was actually in the country reporting, where is NBC's responsibility? Because I'll tell you one thing, as a former NBCC News war correspondent, the desk knows where you are and who you're traveling with pretty much at all times.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, on live TV, anything can happen. But you'd think right after that taping with Letterman, you'd think right after any of these appearances, eyebrows would have been raised. Let's keep in mind, he doesn't go on Letterman or Fallon or "The Daily Show" or anything without being booked and supported by the public relations people at the network and by being blessed by management. You know, NBC wanted him on these shows. They wanted him to promote himself and "Nightly News." But it seems like again and again he crossed the line and that's the best assessment of what's happened. All right, the worst assessment is that he's been lying, making things up for a long time. But the best assessment of this is that he was exaggerating, telling tall tales out of school.

BANFIELD: But this -- I'm sorry, I'm going to go one further here. This is not a tall tale to say that you jumped on an SEAL Team 6 mission.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: And, again, I'll use his words, horses at the gate with the bracelet, with the name of the human target, one of the deck of cards of Saddam Hussein's human targets that needed to be taken out, and he's on the helicopter, told not to make eye contact or communicate with them. NBC News would know what flight he was on.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: They would know what element of the military he was traveling with.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: Because they knew where we were at all times, unless we were taking hostage, which I thank God never was.

STELTER: Maybe what complicates this is, he was on these missions in 2003, or maybe he was on these missions in 2003. We know he was in the country at some point in 2003. He didn't start to make these claims specifically about SEAL Team 6 until after the killing of bin Laden. So it was 2011 before he started talking this way and kind of boasting about it.

BANFIELD: There are huge, huge claims.

STELTER: They are, but they'd have to go back into records that are many years old.

BANFIELD: Or called (ph) --

STELTER: Maybe some of the people that were involved aren't there anymore.

BANFIELD: You don't have to go into record.

STELTER: There's all of those (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: I personally worked with the same crew that Brian Williams worked with. Many members of the same crew I worked with. I could call them right now and get confirmation about all of these travels. Whether he was on that chopper going into Baghdad.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: Eighteen days after he was actually in Baghdad reporting.

STELTER: Right. Right.

BANFIELD: He's saying three days after the invasion started. There's 18 days in between. Where was he on those 18 days? Was he using his electronic key card to go into 30 Rock or was he overseas?

And, by the way, call the photographer, the audio engineer, the producer who was traveling with him.

STELTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: That is a star correspondent, the anchor-in-waiting. They know exactly where he is and if he's safe.

How can this be - where is any proof needed? It's sitting right there in front of them.