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Terror in Denmark; Egypt Attacks ISIS; American Sniper Trial

Aired February 16, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And now we continue on to this.

Hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

A new front line is emerging in the war on ISIS: Libya. Libya here. This all began with this horrific scene, here in the orange jumpsuits, 21 Egyptian Christians kidnapped, lined up along the Mediterranean Sea on the beach, their hands zip-locked behind them. They are then forced to kneel and are beheaded. Egypt immediately retaliated for the sickening murder of its citizens, an Egyptian fighter jet en route to neighboring Libya here.

These are the first strikes by Egypt against ISIS, or at least the first that they will publicly admit to. The primary target here, an ISIS stronghold in Libya's north, Derna, Egypt's military saying, "Avenging Egypt blood is our right and duty."

Joining me now from Jordan is CNN's Jomana Karadsheh.

Jomana, who are these Egyptian Christians who were in Libya who were killed?

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, 21 of them who were kidnapped in two separate incidents December and January in the coastal Mediterranean city Sirte. This is south of the Libyan capital, Tripoli. And they were taken by militants there.

Now, there have been some extremist militant activity in the city of Sirte. This is the birthplace of the former leader of Libya, Moammar Gadhafi. And we have seen that for some time now.

Now, these Egyptians, according to local media reports in Egypt, come from impoverished towns. Like millions of other Libyans, they come across the border looking for jobs in Libya, really a desperate situation that we have seen over the years.

We have seen also so many attacks in the past on Egyptian Christians in Libya by extremist groups, by jihadi groups following the fall of the Gadhafi regime, but definitely nothing as horrific and shocking, like the one that we're seeing now, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And we have talked. And I know you have covered this part of the world for years and years and years.

And in this post-Moammar Gadhafi Libya and the fears of who would take over this power vacuum, really, how surprised are you that you have these ISIS militants in Libya?

KARADSHEH: Absolutely no surprise, Brooke. We have seen this happen over the years. Since the fall of the Gadhafi regime, the country has really gone into this situation of chaos. It's awash in weapons, militias fighting for control, different agendas at play there.

And during all this time, you had porous borders, no law and order, no state institutions, no military security forces to really control the situation. So it was a perfect setting for extremist groups to set up camp in Libya. We have seen them in the past setting up training camps.

You had jihadist training there and going to Syria and also hundreds of Libyans join the fight in Syria, some with the al Qaeda-affiliated group al-Nusra Front, others also with ISIS. And there have been fears about what would happen when they come back home, if they come back more radicalized. And there have been reports over the past year, Brooke, that those fighters are returning home to -- really to try and establish and really more tighten their grip on territory that they are already controlling in Libya, so absolutely no surprise.

There have been warning signs for years. We saw this back in 2012 with the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi that killed Ambassador Stevens and three other Americans and also many other attacks since then. So, it's not surprise. There has been a presence of jihadi groups. And we have seen groups vowing allegiance to ISIS in recent months.

And so many Libyans, Brooke, say that the international community, the same one that helped overthrow the Moammar Gadhafi regime, had an obligation for Libya to try and help the country get back on its feet and it really did not help the country. And in recent years, they feel it has neglected the country and ignored this rising threat from extremists just on the doorsteps of Europe -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: I want to stay on this. Jomana Karadsheh, thank you so much.

Unlike the previous videos that the world has seen, this particular video of these Egyptian Christians being murdered, this wasn't staged in the battlefields of Iraq. This wasn't in Syria. This was on a Mediterranean beach in Libya. This is proof that ISIS is now gaining more footholds outside of those two countries that you see on your screen in red.

The Pentagon saying ISIS militants are now emerging in Algeria, in Libya, in Yemen and Egypt, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Let's talk about this with Buck Sexton, our CNN political commentator and former CIA counterterrorism analyst, and Fawaz Gerges, author of "The New Middle East: Protest and Revolution in the Arab World."

Welcome to both of you.

And, Buck, we have talked about now the tentacles of ISIS spreading, but this the first real tangible example of this sort of brutal happening not in Iraq, not in Syria. I want you to react to the fact this is happening in Africa and this is also happening just across the Mediterranean Sea from Europe.

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What we're seeing here is a strategy that hasn't gotten as much consideration from the West, but it's what ISIS is up to outside of just trying to expand its main area of operations in Iraq and Syria.

They call themselves the Islamic State. They no longer -- they don't refer to themselves anymore as the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. And it's because they want more.

BALDWIN: They want more.

SEXTON: They want to set up these affiliates across the Middle East and now the strongest ones of the affiliate seem to be in Libya and actually in the Sinai, in Egypt.

And so these attacks are part of that other alternative strategy. Even if we successful box in ISIS in Syria and Iraq, there are opportunities for the group to expand elsewhere and that's what this murder on video is trying to show people, that they actually have affiliates that are willing to take terrorist acts into their own hands and are beginning to control territory. The seeds of this were planed months ago.

They announced these affiliations. We're just now seeing the next iteration of them actually acting out as terrorists groups and trying to control territory outside of the boundaries of Iraq and Syria.

BALDWIN: With regard to that, Fawaz, we know this group is all about propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. But something that was absolutely chilling, I was talking to a colonel last hour and he was saying to me, Brooke, this was entirely intentional, the shedding of the blood of these Egyptians, these Christian Egyptians in the Mediterranean Sea, was ISIS foreshadowing the blood they are hoping that will be shed in Europe.

FAWAZ GERGES, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Absolutely. I think what we need to understand, Brooke, is that savagery is a conscious policy on the part of ISIS.

We should not be -- savagery should not obscure the rationality of this particular strategy. The strategy is to terrorize the enemy, to terrorize the so-called Islamic State enemies and to co-opt more and more diluted young men into its ranks. ISIS now, or the so-called Islamic State, Brooke, is seen as the winning horse. It's a powerful brand.

Thousands of young men are flooding to Syria and Iraq to join in its ranks. Its utopian, nihilistic ideology, the so-called caliphate, a centralized Islamic rule, resonate with thousands of young men, not just in the Arab and Muslim world, but also in other parts of the world.

So violence -- what I'm trying to say is that violence and savagery and brutality serves a rational purpose and the purpose is you want to terrorize your enemy and you want to co-opt potential recruits. And that's what we have seen. You and I, Brooke, think about how many times we have talked. Every time we say the so-called Islamic State is not going to shock us anymore, look, 21, 21 poor migrant Egyptians who come from upper Egypt, some of the poorest migrant workers in the world, they left their homes in upper Egypt, the so-called (INAUDIBLE), they came to Libya to make a living to send it to their families.

They basically led them one by one and butchered them and celebrated the savagery in real time. This tells you what this ISIS, Islamic State is all about.

BALDWIN: But how will they be stopped, Buck? Because we know about this because we have been reporting on it for months and months, this U.S.-led coalition. Now you have, which I think is key in perhaps shifting this coalition with Jordan and with Egypt and UAE's, Arab nations in the region, playing more of an active role, but still when you see these tentacles now spreading into Africa and beyond, how are they stopped?

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: They are not going to be stopped by airstrikes.

If U.S. airstrikes against ISIS haven't been enough to really stop the group, we can obviously know that it's not going to be enough for the Jordanian air force to up its airstrikes or the Egyptians in this case to decide that they're going to engage in their own strikes.

This is counterinsurgency. This is actually fighting for control of territory in a contest nation state. That requires boots on the ground and that requires ground troops. And the notion that they are going to be able to continue precision strikes from the air as a means of stopping these groups is just completely -- it's unthinkable.

It's not going to happen. It won't work. It's never worked in the past. I think we're seeing a shift as well because there's a fight right now for jihadist primacy around the globe between the Islamic State and old al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is still around, Al Qaeda out of Pakistan direct groups like AQAP, in the Arabian Peninsula, and others.

They still want to think of themselves as in the vanguard of jihad. But ISIS is the one with the caliphate and ISIS is the one that seems to be growing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: This is still in the one-upping stages?

SEXTON: Absolutely, still growing more and more recruits from around the world.

And I think what we're seeing now is also a shift in strategy from instead of trying to plant terror cells around the world and change western and American policy such that they can take down these apostate regimes, what is really happening now is they are saying, look, let's focus more on actually seizing Benghazi.

Forget about blowing an airliner out of the sky. There will be plenty of time for that later. Let's seize these contested -- let's seize territory, geography, because once you have that, airstrikes are not enough, counterterrorism operations are not enough. You need troops and countries are going to have to send in troops to stop them.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Fawaz, same question to you, just on Buck was saying -- how do you seizing of geography, contested geography?

GERGES: You know, Brooke, ISIS will be defeated. Make no doubts about it.

It's not invincible. It's not as resilient as ISIS -- look, you and I and your guests are buying into this particular ideology, to think that somehow the tide is in their favor. ISIS can only be defeated from within, can be defeated by local forces, by local communities.

It has to be denied the social and doctrinal oxygen. And in this particular sense, Libya, we talk about Libya. The reason why ISIS inspired the groups in Libya and other militants -- we're not talking about Ansar al-Sharia, the one who killed the American ambassador in Benghazi, because you don't have a centralized government.

You have two governments who are basically fighting for legitimacy and for territory. You have chaos. ISIS and the so-called al Qaeda family basically thrives -- they thrive in conflict zones. They are social parasites. So what we need to do in Libya, if you ask me what's the most effective weapon to defeat the so-called Islamic State in Libya and Ansar al-Sharia, I would say helping...

(CROSSTALK)

GERGES: ... to bridge the divide between the two governments, helping the Libyans to rebuild that country, to establish a centralized government and the same thing applies to Iraq and Syria.

But let's not buy into the propaganda and mythology of ISIS. ISIS will be defeated. It's going to be a long war, costly war, complex war. But only Arabs and Muslims will defeat it with the support of the United States and the international community.

BALDWIN: We must shut off their oxygen.

Fawaz Gerges, thank you. Buck Sexton, thank you both so much. I know we will speak again.

We're also keeping our eye on some other stories here, breaking news about the suspect in deadly shootings in Denmark over the weekend. We have a live report on that coming up next, new developments there and other arrests. And plus, new testimony today in the American sniper murder trial.

Why the jailer who booked Eddie Ray Routh says something about him wasn't quite right. We will take you to Texas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right. Two men are behind bars in connection with the deadly attacks in Denmark. Their defense attorney says they have pleaded not guilty to charges of accessory to murder and accessory to attempted murder.

They are accused of helping the suspected gunman hide and get rid of that weapon. That suspect was killed in a shoot-out with police Sunday. This came hours after he opened fire at this free speech forum. A Swedish artist known for his controversial drawings of the Prophet Mohammed was there.

The BBC has obtained a chilling audio recording when the shots began. I can tell you, as a result of that, a filmmaker was killed, and then hours later, gunshots at a synagogue. A security guard was killed there. We just got four pictures from police in Denmark here. We will show these for you.

According to the police, the surveillance pictures shows the suspect when he was involved in a stabbing in 2013.

We have Nic Robertson standing by.

But, Paul Cruickshank, our terrorism analyst, let me go to you first here, because you can break some news on what we now know about this suspect.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: What we now know is that an apparent Facebook page belonging to this gunman, on that Facebook page shortly before the attack, he pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr, as in Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the head of ISIS, on an apparent Facebook page belonging to the gunman.

A friend of the gunman told CNN that he was friends with this Facebook profile. We don't know for absolutely sure it's his Facebook profile, but it appears that it's his Facebook profile. Shortly before the attack, a pledge to the allegiance to the head of ISIS. That doesn't mean in any way, shape or form he was part of ISIS. We're being told that he had no connection directly to ISIS, but he wanted to do it apparently, according to this information, on their behalf.

And this will allow ISIS to take at least some ownership of this terrorist attack. In the weeks before, after "Charlie Hebdo," they were encouraging their supporters in the West to do exactly this.

BALDWIN: That's the thing. Let's go off of that, because again I'm reminded of what happened in Paris and we learned later that those attackers, at least one of them, right, had gone overseas to train. This could be entirely different.

To your point, this may be just surely social media and inspired from a distance by ISIS and this leader who he has pledged his allegiance to. But how often now, Paul, is this happening, this trend, this inspiration, based upon reading material what you can see on the Internet, and forums, and calls from ISIS to take out people from these types of attacks?

CRUICKSHANK: There was a game-changer moment in September of last year when the spokesman of ISIS, a very powerful Syrian figure in the group, Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, put out a fatwa calling on supporters in the West to launch lone wolf attacks, any kind of attack possible.

We have seen attacks since then in Canada, in the United States, in Australia, in France, now in Denmark. We also saw that plot in Brussels. People have responded to this fatwa in a very unprecedented way and there's a lot of concern we're going to see more of this kind of lone wolf terrorism moving forward.

People with no direct connection to ISIS who have never gone to a training camp overseas, who have just stayed home, become radicalized, exposed this propaganda, and who feel that it's their religious duty to wage jihad back in the West.

BALDWIN: How will counterterrorism officials now be able to try to connect dots if there are even dots to be connected? What are they doing right now, other than looking at his Facebook page?

CRUICKSHANK: They will be examining all his social media accounts. Some of these have been deleted and we have been able to get ahold of cache copies of some of this stuff.

But they will be looking through all that, all of his communications and all of his contacts. A couple of his associates have been arrested. Were they perhaps part of a gang that he was linked to or just sort of friends that he had in Copenhagen?

(CROSSTALK)

CRUICKSHANK: They will be looking at all that right at this point. Investigations will be going around the clock. There's got to be a concern that we're going to see a lot more of this, not only in Denmark and in Europe, but even here in the United States.

Every time you have an attack like this, it just inspires yet more people to do this. And then ISIS put out another propaganda magazine where they then eulogized these attacks. And the cycle kind of repeats itself.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Exactly. It's incredibly frightening.

Paul Cruickshank, thank you so much for your reporting.

We're going to stay on that, obviously.

But coming up next here, new developments in the murder trial of the man accused of killing the American sniper, Chris Kyle, and his friend -- what the booking officer at the jail revealed on the stand about Eddie Ray Routh on the day he was arrested.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Testimony in the so-called American sniper trial is under way again in Texas.

Former Marine Eddie Ray Routh is charged with killing veteran Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield. Kyle, as you know, he is the former Navy SEAL who is the subject of the hit movie "American Sniper."

Routh's lawyer admits his client killed the men, but says Routh was insane at the time.

Ed Lavandera has been at this trial the whole time in Stephenville, Texas. He joins me live.

Ed, I understand the jury has just started to watch this videotaped confession that Routh gave to police after his arrest?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, fascinating moments starting to unfold here in Stephenville, Brooke.

This is probably the most significant moment I think in the first four days of testimony here, where the jury is now watching the videotaped confession. He was interviewed by a Texas Ranger detective just hours after he was arrested.

So this is the first time that this jury is directly hearing statements and videotaped statements from Eddie Ray Routh himself not too long after the murders of Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield were committed, so an incredibly significant moment.

The videotape has just now started playing. But before that, prosecutors were interviewing the detective that had carried out that interview with Eddie Ray Routh. When he says at some point -- throughout the videotape, you will hear that Eddie Ray Routh stated that he was wrong to kill Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield and that he wished he had hadn't done it, that if he could apologize to the families, he would, and that he was sorry for what he had done.

This is incredibly significant because of course what the prosecution must prove is that Eddie Ray Routh knew what he was doing was wrong at the time of these murders. But of course there are other moments in this videotape that the jury is now starting to see, other moments that are really kind of shedding light in that bizarre personality of Eddie Ray Routh.

At some point, he also says that in his conversation with his sister, if you remember, he drove to his sister's house after the killings and said: "I told her I had to kill men today. It wasn't a want to. It was need. I had to get out of that situation today I was in today" and that Chris Kyle felt -- that Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield were -- Eddie Ray Routh felt that these two men were going to attack him, so definitely some bizarre statements in this confession tape as well, but this is a significant portion of this trial here, Brooke. BALDWIN: Bizarre, indeed. We're checking in with you every day, Ed

Lavandera. Thank you so much in Texas with this trial.

Now to Egypt -- Egypt takes revenge on ISIS, launching not one, two rounds of airstrikes against the terror group. Now that a dozen countries are involved in the attacks, will it have a big impact on the militants' advances.

And ice and snow dipping as far south as Tennessee right now. The temperatures are still falling, as this winter weather tightens its grip, and it's not over yet by any stretch of the imagination.

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