Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

ISIS Accused of Organ Harvesting; Photo of Reclusive ISIS Leader; Road Rage Murder; Routh Trial

Aired February 18, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: In "The Situation Room." For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next. For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being me.

We now have new information today that Syrian rebels could soon start calling the shots in the war against ISIS. The United States planning to give some moderate rebels the ability to call in these U.S. air strikes using GPS from down on the ground. This is not exactly expected to sit well with some lawmakers who were against arming the rebels in the first place in that civil war. Concern that not enough is known. Just a lack of intel here with regard to these rebel fighters, their backgrounds.

But now, with ISIS extending its reach here, we keep showing you the map because the geography is so key in this story. You know the stakes are just a whole lot higher and it appears the U.S. needs help in Syria. The U.S. military is already doing it with the Kurdish fighters in Iraq. It does seem to be working. Just today, an ISIS advance in northern Iraq came to a screeching halt. This is near that town here of Irbil. After hours of deadly fighting, Kurdish fighters fought back the militants, calling in U.S. air strikes to finish the job.

Joining me now, Bob McFadden, senior vice president of the Soufan Group and former special agent in charge at the NCIS, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

So, good to see you, as always, Bob McFadden.

ROBERT MCFADDEN, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, THE SOUFAN GROUP: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me just begin with -- before we get to some of the logistics of war here, some information that's come out - and this is, again, just from a single source, this is claims by Iraq's U.N. ambassador, that bodies of ISIS victims are being found cut up, organs missing. So then one would deduce it would be potentially to sell organs on the black market. Again, you know, no proof of this. If it were true, would it surprise you?

MCFADDEN: It wouldn't surprise me. I mean hardly anything surprises us about the Islamic State. You know, when we heard the ambassador say this today, I mean, some eyebrows raised of course because it's another shocking thing about the group that may be true, according to the ambassador. But if it is for organ harvesting, for example, this would represent another source of revenue.

BALDWIN: And that's what I wanted to ask you about. So if this would be one source of revenue, how are these militants getting money to continue?

MCFADDEN: Yes, there's been a lot of talk about ISIS as the richest, the biggest coffers of any extremist group out there. But, you know, day to day, though, Brooke, it's thirsting for sources of revenue because where it may have one, for example, oil -

BALDWIN: Right. We're hitting the oil.

MCFADDEN: Hitting oil refinery and the processing of oil, it needs another source of revenue. The organization is growing. It has more people to feed, more weapons to buy, that sort of thing. So always looking for sources of revenue.

BALDWIN: Since this organ harvesting claim is coming from the Iraq ambassador to the United Nations -

MCFADDEN: Yes.

BALDWIN: And, again, this is a claim. There is no proof. What would be the advantage for Iraq to come out and make this claim?

MCFADDEN: Well, that's the main point of what you just said, let's see the evidence -- what's behind it? What kind of information, intelligence is there. But keep in mind for the broader context, there's a big information war going on in Syria, in Iraq, in the broader Middle East by all parties involved. So anything the Iraqi government can say that denigrates or further villainies the Islamic State, you would expect it to be said.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).

MCFADDEN: But sometimes there are politics, no doubt about it.

BALDWIN: A lot of times politics are at play.

MCFADDEN: A lot of times.

BALDWIN: What about the news that the U.S. may give these moderate Syrian rebels the ability to call the shots are far as these U.S. air strikes go? I mean that's a lot of power.

MCFADDEN: A lot of power and --

BALDWIN: A good thing?

MCFADDEN: If you - if you go back - well, absolutely. Here's something to consider. If you go back to us and coalition going into Afghanistan to go after al Qaeda after 9/11, U.S. special operations forces had remarkable results by being able to put devices, lasers on targets for precision bombing, which makes -- facilitates precision strikes in more dense areas. So, yes, this is a good development. And not to be much of a surprise, but here's the part in the background as more details come out about this. There is a complex process of selecting, validating, vetting, making sure the priorities are right as to who gets the equipment -

BALDWIN: Yes.

MCFADDEN: So they can put eyes on target in country.

BALDWIN: Because you know ISIS will know damn well who has those GPS devices, right? That would be one of my fears would be that just as we've seen U.S. weapons wind up in their hands and also who knows what kind of weapons caches there were in Libya, and here you have these militants (INAUDIBLE) falls into the wrong hands.

MCFADDEN: Absolutely. But to chip away at a group like ISIS by the coalition air strikes, where in the beginning you would expect, and we saw the open areas, they were able to greatly push back and degrade the capability to move with impunity. But now in an area, for example, Raqqa, its headquarters, its capital in Syria, in order to chip away, you have to have some eyes on target to be able to hit those targets because it's deeply embedded within high density urban areas.

BALDWIN: Yes. Bob McFadden, thank you very much.

MCFADDEN: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Appreciate it. Soufan Group.

Abu Bakr al Baghdadi here, the leader of ISIS, as reclusive as he is dangerous. Until now there really have been very few pictures of him. But one photo has now surfaced. This photo has surfaced. It's been obtained by CBS News. This was actually taken back in 2004. And it's not just any old picture here. This photo was actually taken by the U.S. military while Ab Bakr al Baghdadi was being processed at an American-run prison in Iraq. CNN's Brian Todd takes a closer look at Baghdadi's time in U.S. custody.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He may be the most vicious terrorist leader in recent years. Possibly more brutal than bin Laden. Now, a former inmate at a U.S. run prison camp in Iraq says ISIS leader Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, the man behind scores of ISIS beheadings, was once a trusted inmate by his American captors, allowed to roam freely around the camp.

MARTIN CHULOV, CORRESPONDENT, "THE GUARDIAN": The Americans seem to see Abu Bakr as somebody who could keep the prison quiet. There were 24 camps within the Sunni side of Camp Bucca. He was allowed open access to all of them.

TODD: "Guardian" reporter Martin Chulov interviewed a senior ISIS commander he calls Abu Ahmed, not his real name. Abu Ahmed says he spent time at Camp Bucca with Baghdadi starting in 2004. He told Chulov, Baghdadi was a fixer at the camp who could settle disputes between competing factions. Quote, "he was respected very much by the U.S. Army." Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, he said, was seen by other detainees as clever, scheming. Quote, "using a policy of conquer and divide to get what he wanted."

A U.S. intelligence official tells us Baghdadi built street cred inside Bucca. Abu Ahmed said Baghdadi and other jihadists at this American prison were not always segregated, essentially allowed to meet freely to plot and they had an ingenious way of communicating.

CHULOV: Him and others were able to write their contact details on the white elastic of their boxer shorts - their prison-issued boxer shorts. And that was a way that they networked. And when they got out of prison, they had phone numbers, they had details of fathers, villagers, uncles, whatever.

TODD: Abu Ahmed depicted Camp Bucca as the incubator of ISIS, saying it was a management school for ISIS leaders. Quote, "if there was no American prison in Iraq, there would be no Islamic State now."

PATRICK SKINNER, THE SOUFAN GROUP: Most of the senior leadership, and probably a good portion of the midlevel management and foot soldiers came from Bucca because, you know, tens of thousands of people were held in Bucca over the years. And so just when they got out, they had little to do and they had these established networks. And it's clear that they had done their homework in the prison.

TODD: And, as he left, according to a former camp commander, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi had a chilling, parting shot.

KENNETH KING, FORMER COMMANDER AT CAMP BUCCA: He looked over to us and he left he said, see you guys in New York.

TODD: Responding to the accounts that Camp Bucca was a breeding ground for ISIS, where jihadist could strategize, a Pentagon official told CNN, quote, "these type of detentions are common practice during armed conflict."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: "See you in New York." That's pretty haunting. Brian Todd is with me. And, Brian, we know the State Department says the U.S. cannot kill its way out of the war with ISIS, but it does appear that they're making an exception when it comes to Baghdadi. Tell me about this classified ISIS kill list.

TODD: It is a kill list, Brooke, it's not a capture list because the U.S. doesn't have boots on the ground there. According to a senior U.S. official who spoke to our Barbara Starr, the U.S. is maintaining a list of top ISIS operatives that it wants to target. Abu Bakr al Baghdadi is number one on that list. There are about two dozen ISIS commanders and operatives who are on that list. Abu Bakr al Baghdadi tops it. He is said to be very mindful, of course, of the fact that the U.S. is trying to hunt him and he's believed to be trying to stay out of sight. There's not a lot of intelligence about his latest whereabouts right now, at least not a lot of open intelligence right now on that. So, Brooke, he is at the top of that list. About two dozen people on that list.

BALDWIN: Brian Todd, we'll see you on "The Situation Room." Thank you, sir.

TODD: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Coming up, a new twist in the road rage case involving a mother who was shot and killed. There is now word she and her kids went looking for the driver who police have yet to find.

And the defense in the American sniper murder trial begins its first day and they're trying to convince jurors that the alleged shooter here is absolutely insane. Hear their reasons.

And as President Obama gets ready to give a speech on extremism in the United States, is this just a way for the government, this is cover for the government to spy on American Muslims? We'll have that debate. We'll hear from both sides coming up. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Well, we didn't entirely know the full story here. Now a twist in this deadly road rage case out of Las Vegas. Police say the gunman they are now pursuing, at one point before the killing was pursued by the victim herself. This whole chain of events, this whole thing started Thursday when Tammy Meyers was driving home with her 15- year-old daughter after a driving lesson. And according to police, the car sped around Meyers. Her daughter leaned over and honked at the driver. The driver then cut mom and daughter off. The car stopped. The driver, according to police, got out of the car and said some things that, quote, "frightened the mother." Now the mother here, headed home with her daughter Crystal. Police say they then picked up her son and then went out looking for the driver.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. RAY STEIBER, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPT.: Her 22-year-old son came out of the house, got into the car. He was armed with a firearm that is registered to him. And then they left the house. They left the house in search of that person they were -- that Mrs. Myers was involved in an incident with just prior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Meyers and her son, authorities say, found the driver but the cars apparently got separated. Tammy Meyers returned home with her son and that is when someone came to her home, opened fire in her driveway, killed her. This is all according to the investigators. And so her son fired back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON MEYERS, FOLLOWED SUSPECTED SHOOTER WITH HIS MOTHER: I did what I had to do to protect my family. Everyone wants to think what they have to think. I did it for a reason. And I'd do it for anyone I love.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin joins me now.

And so this is the new information today, that the son got in the car, they went apparently looking for the other driver. I'm not entirely clear on the exact, if there was an exchange or they just went looking and then came back. Bottom line, does that change things?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it does. And I think it changes things because we don't really know what to believe now because this timeline has changed. And I think what's going to be really key here is that if it is true that she was at home, out of harm's way, and then chose to seek out this irate driver, that changes this mom from, in my mind, could change her from victim to aggressor. And so, you know, when you're talking about road rage, yes, you're talking about aggression and you're talking about incidents that happen on the road. And they happen, unfortunately, a lot. But this is a bit different, right? I mean how would a jury feel that she was home, but then picks up her son with a firearm and goes out to look for trouble.

BALDWIN: Right. Son says he was just defending, you know, his mother. But to your point, if it comes out that she's the aggressor and they eventually find this, you know, this other driver, who's still MIA, that would affect charges, wouldn't it?

HOSTIN: It has to because what if his story is, oh my gosh, I was terrified. He's brandishing a weapon at me. I'm fearing for my life. I'm now shooting in self-defense. And so I've got to tell you, this really changes the dynamics of this case. And I'm sure we're going to learn more about that. But, you know -

BALDWIN: Do we know who fired first?

HOSTIN: Well, we thought at first that the son fired in - sort of returning fire. But now what to believe? What will the police believe? What would a jury believe? This really has some -- taken some tragic turns. And I think the moral of the story is, once you are in safety, let the police do their job. If you feel that you are in danger -

BALDWIN: Stay home.

HOSTIN: But you are at home, call the police. Report the incident. You don't go out seeking trouble.

BALDWIN: They're still looking for that driver. We'll see what happens if and when they find him or her. Sunny Hostin, thank you.

HOSTIN: You bet.

BALDWIN: And now to this. Next, he admits killing American sniper Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield. Today, attorney s for the suspect, Eddie Ray Routh, lay the foundation for this insanity defense. All of this as more and more questions emerge about how and why Routh was released from a V.A. mental health hospital despite pleas from his own mother to not let him out.

Plus, escape from ISIS. An Egyptian man, who was nearly among those 21 Christians beheaded in Libya, describes how he eluded the terror group.

Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: He was catatonic. He was incoherent. He had demons. This is how family members are describing the alleged shooter in the American sniper trial. All of this after the prosecution played Routh's confession to killing famed Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield.

But on the defense's first day, lawyers trying to prove that this confession came from a psychotic man. Ed Lavandera is live outside that courthouse in Stephenville, Texas.

And, Ed, I mean just listening to some of those descriptions, I mean, obviously, some of his friends and family were concerned about PTSD when he came home from Iraq but did they describe any behavior as dangerous?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know there has been a lot of talk of that. So far we've heard from his mother and uncle, his girlfriend, who is on the witness stand now, and his sister as well. And there really have been lot of focus on that month leading up to the killings of Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield. At one point the girlfriend of Eddie Ray Routh testifying that Routh had held her and her roommate at knife point in the weeks before the killings.

And then she also goes on to talk about, they were together on that Friday night before the murders of Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield. And they're sitting around in his house. And she says, "I asked him if he was seeing things and he said, yes. And then I asked him if he was hearing things, and he said, yes. He got up and he told me that they were listening to us." They, apparently he's referring to the government. "So he got out a yellow legal pad and he started writing things on the yellow legal pad. And when I tried to speak to him, he would take his hand and cover my mouth because he didn't want them to hear what I had to say." Brooke, this is the night before the killings.

BALDWIN: So that was the night before the killings. We're also hearing more about how Routh was being treated at V.A. centers just a couple of days before the killings. Is the defense basically saying, listen, they shouldn't have released him, period?

LAVANDERA: And we heard from Routh's mother who said yesterday that she was begging the V.A. hospital to keep him admitted. He was released about a week or so before February 2, 2013, the day of the killings. And Routh's mother also described how he had been on a various cocktail of psychological medications, taking eight different prescriptions at one point. BALDWIN: If -- having been then to the V.A. center as a, you know,

(INAUDIBLE) other than the drugs, I guess, is he still receiving any of that money now while he's on trial? And if he is convicted, will those benefits continue?

LAVANDERA: Well, this is interesting. And it's still kind of some -- an issue that hasn't been resolved quite yet. But yesterday afternoon, late yesterday, outside the presence of the jury, we learned that Eddie Ray Routh, since he's been in jail here in Stephenville, that he has been receiving disability payments to the total of about $30,000.

BALDWIN: Wow.

LAVANDERA: Which came as a shock to the judge who says he's been -- has three court-appointed lawyers in the case. So what exactly is going to happen with this money isn't clear. We understand, according to what was said in court yesterday, that if he were to be convicted, the amount of money he's receiving would drop dramatically, if not change altogether. So that is an issue that is now out there. How exactly that's going to play out, we're not sure yet.

BALDWIN: All right. They'll figure it out if - if he is convicted. Ed Lavandera, thank you very much, in Texas.

And just a heads-up, again tonight, do not miss this film. It's "Blockbuster: The Story of American Sniper." It airs here on CNN at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific.

Coming up next, and later, would you sign up for a one-way trip to Mars? Like you go to Mars and you never ever, ever, ever come back. We'll talk to one of the top finalists who really wants to go, chosen for this trip of a lifetime. I have a lot of questions for him. If you have questions, hit me @brookebcnn. I'm always checking my Twitter. What would he be going to do? Why would he want to go? And how does his wife feel? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)