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Dr. Drew
"American Sniper" Trial Continues: Eddie Ray Routh Pleads Insanity; Road Rage Gets Deadly; Nick Gordon Begs to See Bobbi Kristina Brown
Aired February 18, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, a mother`s death. Was road rage responsible or is something else behind this tragic murder? Bobbi
Kristina`s family at her bedside. Nick Gordon desperate to see her.
We are going to start with the most tweeted story of the night. Eddie Routh, the man who killed the real-life "American Sniper," Chris Kyle at
Chad Littlefield at a gun range. This is where he did it.
He is on trial now for murder. He has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. People are doubting that. I do not know. We will see. And,
today`s girlfriend and his sister took the stand to testify about his wild behavior. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY COOPER, AS CHRIS KYLE, IN THE FILM "AMERICAN SNIPER": I got a woman and a kid 20 yards out, moving towards the convoy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: I am talking about the trial of the man who shot dead Chris Kyle, the real life "American Sniper."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE OPERATOR: Who did he say he had killed?
LAURA BLEVINS, EDDIE RAY ROUTH`S SISTER: He said that he killed two guys, they went to a shooting range. Like he is all crazy. He is (EXPLICIT
WORD) psychotic. .
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She said the former marine was suffering from PTSD.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This guy is -- if he is insisting that is what he had or got disability because of it is overusing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA (audio re-enactment): "You cannot just keep letting people eat your soul up for free, you know? It is not what it is about, it is about
having a soul that you have in you for yourself. And, there are tons of people that are eating on my soul right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Routh`s defense team says one word, "Insanity."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. TIM MOORE, EDDIE RAY ROUTH`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He was in the grip of a psychosis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At one point he was prescribed nine different psychological medications.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. MOORE: Eddie Routh --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: "You know what you did today was wrong. You understand that?" Routh: "Yes, Sir."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You will hear him say he knew he was wrong.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, does it matter whether he is insane or not?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Anneelise Goetz, attorney; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University; Jessie Jane Duff, Gunnery
Sergeant U.S. Marine Corps (Reti.) and Senior Fellow with the London Center for Policy Research. And, on the phone, I have a correspondent, Ed
Lavandera, who has been covering this trial. Ed, give us the latest, please.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Drew, what we heard today was more testimony from family and friends of Eddie Ray Routh. Then two in
particular that stood out. We heard from Eddie Ray Routh`s sister.
If you remember, he drove to her house after the killings. And, she was the one that called 911 and sent authorities on the chase for Routh. But,
she said that the person who came to my house is not the man who I knew was my brother. And, that she turned to him that day and said, "I love you,
but I hate your demons."
So, she really kind of backed up a lot of that testimony that the defense attorneys have been talking about, about the erratic behavior. And, then
we also heard from Eddie Ray Routh`s girlfriend, a woman by the name of Jennifer Weed, who talked about how he could be quick tempered and erratic.
And, at one point, the night before the murders, she said they were alone in his house and she asked him if he was seeing things. And, he said,
"Yes." Then I asked him if he was hearing things and he said, "Yes." And, that he was afraid -- he kept talking about, "They were listening to us."
And, she could not talk. And, she said that "They" was referring to the government.
PINSKY: OK. That is a clear delusion. But, he claims -- Thank you, Ed. He claims PTSD. Now, I want to give you the background on this guy`s
service. Because, I do not know about this PTSD claim.
He served in the marines for four years, specialized as a small arms technician, a repairman. One tour in Iraq. His father said he spent most
of the time guarding prisoners, whatever that is.
He was then on a humanitarian mission to Haiti after the earth quake. The reports I read said he did not leave the ship. But, Judy, he claimed that
it was the trip to Haiti that really set off his PTSD, which sounds like nonsense.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It is, nonsense, Dr. Drew. I do wonder about his attorneys and how they are advising him, because I do not
think that, that is the condition that is going to actually provide a good defense at all.
If he wants to provide a good defense, they really need to look at how he behaved during the confession tapes. Not only was he delusional, there
were so many other instances that show that perhaps he was not with it just from a general mental status perspective.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: He was confused. He could not follow any line of questioning. Most of what he said was unintelligible.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: And, nobody picked that up. Nobody gave him that official test to see if he was confused due to perhaps the early alcohol and drug use that he
reported using that day.
PINSKY: OK. So, Anneelise, you see we are getting at here. And, this is what -- Judy, I think I agree on this thing, which is that he -- the kind
of psychosis this guys has is not like anything typical of a primary psychiatric disturbance. The degree of disorganization actually suggests
something we call an encephalothy. It is like a delirium.
He does not know where he is. Nobody says, what is the date, who is the president, where are you right now. They should have. I do not see any
evidence that they did that. But, Anneelise, are they protecting that information because that would suggest drug use and that would put him at
higher risk of culpability here?
GOETZ: Of course the defense right now is trying to avoid the drug issue, right? They want to try and put aside the alcohol abuse, the drug abuse
and instead --
PINSKY: Why the PTSD then? The PCP has nothing to do with this.
GOETZ: Because -- No. It is so good, though, Dr. Drew. Because PTSD reminds the jury -- this is a man that served his country. What the
defense is trying to do is humanize this guy. Because Texans produce a lot of military, a lot of people that serve in the military.
And, it resonates with the jury when you see -- this is a guy that has served his time. And, Dr. Drew, he came back and he is -- he has the
wounds of war. And, that is what is going on right now. And, what the defense is trying to do is just remind the jury of that.
PINSKY: OK. Jessie.
GOETZ: I think it is brilliant.
PINSKY: Maybe brilliant, but -- Jessie, at first I am disgusted by it, because it really minimizes those people that really have PTSD. This guy
has a psychotic condition. The manifestation of psychosis suggests a drug- induced psychosis. These were all legal maneuverings, to me are offensive to somebody else in the military who actually is suffering from PTSD.
JESSIE JANE DUFF, GUNNERY SERGEANT U.S. MARINE CORPS (RET.): It is a very sleazy move. There are 7 million Americans that have PTSD. And, PTSD in
itself is an anxiety disorder. It is not something that in -- many people on active duty still have PTSD, simply because it is manageable.
In his particular case, it has been shown that he took shots of whiskey. He took -- he inhaled a marijuana laced with other drugs. His own mother
said he was on nine separate medications. So, essentially, we got a guy that has really lost his mind on other levels.
And, they do not want to address the reality. They want the sympathy factor in there and that is insulting to myself as a veteran. They have
already had to remove the death penalty because of that.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh. And, right now, he receives $2,800 a month, Anneelise. He gets around $30,000 in back pay benefits. He received that
much since the murder. And if he is convicted, he will still get $280 a month. On top of that, Anneelise, he has three court appointed attorneys.
My understanding is that the judge in this case has even taken the reigns here and gone, enough.
GOETZ: Here is the thing. OK. Yes, it is frustrating to hear about that. But, come on, you, guys. That is a drop in the bucket. Because what we
are really fighting about in this case is what type of state subsidized housing we are going to give this guy. Either we are going to put him in
jail for the rest of his life or we are going to put him in a psychiatric hospital for the rest of his life.
No matter what happens, we are paying for his housing. And, you know, in this day and age, that can be up to $100,000 a year to have someone in jail
for one year. So, you know, he is getting $280 a year. Who cares? I mean that is losing sight of what the big catastrophe is in this situation.
PINSKY: What is the big catastrophe? I do not get it. The whole thing sounds a catastrophe.
GOETZ: $100,000. $100,000.
PINSKY: For what? To be in prison? To be in prison?
GOETZ: Well, if he is in prison -- he is either going to go to prison or he is going to go to a state psychiatric hospital. So, either way we are
paying for him to be in the state subsidized housing for the rest of his life. Because no matter the verdict is, this guy is not going to be
walking the streets, you know, until the day he dies.
PINSKY: I -- I just -- this whole thing has me completely -- this is very --
DUFF: I think -- I think they should --
PINSKY: What?
DUFF: I think that they should be able to relinquish this money that he gets from the veterans administration and pay it to his victims.
PINSKY: Yes.
DUFF: Because the reality of this is, that he should not be -- she is right. We are losing site of the end goal here. But, the fact is, is that
they are manipulating a term called PTSD.
PINSKY: They are manipulating the term --
DUFF: They are not using it as a defense, but they are definitely getting it in there to get the jury to feel sorry for him.
PINSKY: The guy is a drug-induced psychosis. They trying to get a sympathy factor. This is misconduct -- misappropriation of so many
principals.
DUFF: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
HO: Yes, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: It is disturbing. You, Anneelise, you call it genius. I call it disgusting. Next up, his killer -- Chris Kyle`s killer and a ninja sword.
There is more stories here.
And, later, a mother shot and killed following a road rage incident. And, we know more about why her son had a gun. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT CLIP)
JENNIFER WEED, EDDIE RAY ROUTH`S GIRLFRIEND: I asked him if he was seeing things and he said yes. And, then I asked him if he was hearing things and
he said yes. He got up and told me that they were listening to us.
So, he got out a yellow legal pad and he started writing things on the yellow legal pad. And, when I tried to speak to him, he would take his
hand and cover my mouth because he did not want them to hear what I had to say.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is a psychosis, but it also can be a delirium. I am back with Anneelise, Judy and Jessie. An audio re-enactment of Routh`s
girlfriend testifying today about the conversation she had, had with him the night before he killed Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield.
Now, Routh has claimed -- at least his attorney has claimed that he has PTSD. They also claimed that he was insane at the time of the killings.
So, let me tell you about his girlfriend, Jennifer -- ironically enough, Jennifer Weed. They met on a dating website in 2012. Lived together for
about a month. She has a degree in psychology.
And just two weeks before the killings, Routh accused the girlfriend of, quote, "Trying to steal his soul." And, then held her and her roommate
hostage with a ninja sword. Judy, so it is funny, the sister says she is not seeing this kind of psychosis.
The girlfriend had seen escalating psychosis recently. Two questions, is that still consistent with drug-induced psychosis to you? And, why did not
this girlfriend report this to somebody?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, your first question about whether or not it is still consistent with a drug-induced psychosis, I believe that it is. He has a
long-term use of these substances.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, you can see that there, actually, is that sort of cohesive quality to the delusion that is all about people stealing his soul. And if
that has been going on at least now for a couple of weeks --
PINSKY: Right.
HO: -- that does not mean, though, that the drug-inducing of these types of symptoms cannot make it worse, cannot throw him into a delirium --
PINSKY: All right.
HO: -- can exacerbate the symptoms.
PINSKY: OK. So, you are saying it is possibly even two things. So, it could be a primary psychiatric condition of schizophrenia and then the
drugs are what are making this over the top wild?
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, you know, why did not she tell somebody? She was a psychology major.
PINSKY: I know.
HO: This is somebody that she cares about and loves. And, you know what, honestly, Dr. Drew? We are so clouded when we are near that. You know, it
is our loved ones. We want to hope for the best. We probably just never would think that.
PINSKY: How many times -- Judy, how many times in the show do we have to say, you know, report it, report it --
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: -- report it before they hurt themselves or somebody else. You are doing it for their good.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: You are trying to help them. They are sick and you are going to put them in the hospital. That is what hospitals are for.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: To prevent horrible tragedies. That is what a psychiatric hospital prevents. Now, after he was arrested, he is in the back of a
patrol car. And, I will show you something he says with a re-enactment. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDDIE RAY ROUTH, KILLER OF THE REAL-LIFE AMERICAN SNIPER (audio re- enactment): I am just so nervous about what has been happening in my life today. I do not know what has been happening.
FLAVIO SALAZAR, LANCASTER POLICE OFFICER (audio re-enactment): Do not you worry about that right now, OK?
ROUTH (audio re-enactment): I have been so paranoid schizophrenic all day. I do not know what to even think of the world right now. I do not know if
I am insane or sane. I do not know what is even sane in the world right now.
(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
PINSKY: Anneelise, because of the convoluted defense and the way they are trying to promote sympathy for him, people are -- some people are going the
other way, doubting the veracity of what he was doing. They are saying he is like malingering and he is inventing the whole thing, which I do not
believe.
I mean I would like to, you know -- given the way this is going, I would not mind tagging that on him. But, you know, the way that the defense is
building this case is not connected to clinical reality, unfortunately.
GOETZ: You know, I hear what you are saying. I think that we saw that tape and we also saw his confession later on. That is what the prosecution
ended with. And, honestly, I think that it was a strong ending, because it is hard to question the fact that this guy was all there.
I think that everyone can agree when you are talking about people eating your soul and pigs flying through the sky that he was not playing with a
full deck of cards, right? But the question is, did he understand right from wrong?
PINSKY: Right.
GOETZ: Even if you hit that first prong of there being a mental illness. And, I do want to clarify, I think they are using PTSD in order to create
sympathy and humanize him.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: But they are not actually using that as his mental defense.
PINSKY: Well, they have been cloudy -- They have been going back and forth. .
GOETZ: It is cloudy, but --
PINSKY: They have been really not clear about it. And --
GOETZ: I do think -- what they want to do is use more of an -- is a legal -- a mental defense with that.
PINSKY: No. I understand. Listen, they want to say, even if -- I would say, even if he was psychotic, whether it was drug-induced or not -- I
think it was drug-induced. They are trying to avoid that because that would mean he is responsible for having taken that drug.
GOETZ: Yes.
PINSKY: But that he did in fact know right from wrong even though he was kind of disorganized. He says, I know I did something wrong.. He has led
police on a chase. Jessie, do not you agree with me on this? I mean he seemed to understand, at least other people thought he did something wrong.
DUFF: Absolutely. First of all, he says, I do not know if I have paranoid schizophrenia. He is identifying these mental states that he is in, which
tells me he has awareness. And, many people with mental illness, once they are aware of it, they seek treatment. So, he is aware he has got problems.
And, now he is using this very terms that he has used while he has been in these hospitals to manipulate the officers, to try to appear as if he is
crazier than he really is, OK?
PINSKY: OK.
DUFF: The reality is, is that the Veterans Administration released him -- I am thoroughly disgusted in the mental healthcare that has been provided
to our veterans right there.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Right.
DUFF: That to me, personally, is a veterans` appalling. But, for him to also now manipulate the system, drop the PTSD, drop this dog on marine
veteran stuff because the reality is he said he knew right from wrong. And, that is the bar that is set in the state of Texas.
PINSKY: That is right. So, here is my thought, which is that he probably was getting better care than it appears, but it was inadequate care. This
does not have to happen. There is evidence out there that he was on multiple psychiatric medications.
My fear is that he preferred to take addictive drugs than to take his psychiatric medication. And, so, it made that -- that may be on him too.
He may not have taken his medication. If there was a primary psychiatric problem, there may also have been a drug problem or the drug problem may
have been the whole story or there might have been two.
In either case, I am suspicious, particularly given how the system is being manipulated by this guy. He was not telling the whole story and he was not
compliant. And, yes, the psychiatric care was not adequate. But it also is a little -- not a little bit -- largely on him for not complying and
preferring drugs.
I understand. I understand. You want to get high. I get that. You are a drug addict, but tell somebody. You are getting psychotic. You are
getting delusional. This does not have to go so bad.
Next up, a mother is killed after a road rage incident, but there may be more to that story.
And, later, Nick Gordon begs to see Bobbi Kristina Brown who remains in a coma. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: The case of road rage turned deadly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tammy Meyers died of a gunshot wound to the head. Police say the suspect followed her home and shot her after the
two argued over a traffic incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Police say that after the incident, the victim, Tammy Meyers, went home to get her son who was armed. They then went back out to find
the driver.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRANDON MEYERS, TAMMY MEYERS` SON: I did what I had to do to protect my family. Everyone can think what they have to think. I did it for a
reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Tammy Meyers is the person who was killed in this case, actually may have escalated the situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Here in Los Angeles, we know to not escalate things, because you never know when it is just that wrong person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We know in Los Angeles, those of us here that deal with road rage on almost a daily basis, we always think, could this be the one? Could
this be the person that spirals out of control and does something horrible like this?
So, the question is, was this road rage or was it something more that triggered this sequence of events, ultimately, ending in the death of a Las
Vegas mom? Behavior bureau coming on in. Samantha Schacher, "Pop Trigger" Hulu!; Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com and Judy Ho still with me. Sam,
would you give me a timeline on what happened here?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU!: Yes. OK. So, this took place, Dr. Drew, last Thursday night when according to her family she
was giving her 15-year-old daughter a driving lesson. That is when she got into a heated exchange with the suspect who sped up behind her.
She then went to her house, dropped off her daughter, collected her son who was armed with a gun. They went out, according to the police, looking for
the suspect. They found the suspect. Then she made her way back to the house.
The suspect, apparently, followed her back there, because that is when the son and the suspect got into a gunfight and Tammy was shot in the head and
the suspect is still on the run.
PINSKY: And, I am seeing this high-tech cartoon we have been watching, which is what happened during the driving lesson that the mom was giving
the daughter. This guy sort of pulled around and the daughter honked and the guy got out of the car and came after them.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: And, there is a friend that set up a Gofundme page to cover Tammy`s medical expenses. And, she wanted to set the records straight, so
we got an audio recreation of what is on that page. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: When Tammy and her son left, they did not go in search of the suspects. They were getting the vehicle away from the
home because the suspects were actively searching for the car. Once Tammy turned the corner, they encountered the suspects.
They then opened fire on Tammy and her son. Tammy returned home, was pursued and gunned down. Her son did not open fire with his registered
concealed carry firearm that he always has on him until he witnessed his mother collapsed.
(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
PINSKY: Vanessa, there is a lot of unanswered questions about this particular case. But this does not seem like the usual road rage that we
deal here in Los Angeles or anywhere else for that matter.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: It does not, but I actually really do believe this friend. I do not believe that this mother would take her son
into this dangerous situation and search out this man, who she believes cut her off or whatever happened. I do not really believe that that --
PINSKY: It is weird, right?
SCHACHER: Yes.
BARNETT: It is very --
PINSKY: She goes home and then she goes back out. And, the son got his gun.
BARNETT: It is very odd.
PINSKY: It is very odd. I just know there is more to this story before we are all done here.
SCHACHER: Right.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Now, almost 13,000 people have been injured or killed in crashes involving aggressive drivers. Judy, the one thing I always tell people is
do not assume that somebody else`s mind or brain works like yours. It might be the one person who is on meth or has a gun or is impulsive or is
psychotic like our buddy in the last segment. You just do not know.
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. You know, I live in L.A., and I encounter people with road rage all the time. And, I always think of, do not even
try anything back, because this could be the day that you die because you are trying to defend yourself or flip them off. What is that worth?
BARNETT: Right.
HO: So, you know, this is one of the issues about people with road rage. You think it might just be a natural reaction to being in traffic. These
are clearly not natural reactions what we are talking about here.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: There could have been something very serious here. I think there is two types of road ragers. The type that does not have a lot of stimulation
in their brain, so they seek that stimulation and they escalate for that reason, and it gives them excitement.
Or the type of people who are clinically anxious. So, they are actually heightened all the time. And, so, they respond in such a hypervigilant and
sort of exaggerated way to any kind of slight.
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: That is the -- Yes. Samantha, you are saying wow because there is different kinds of road rage, and Judy is absolutely right. And, there is
another kind. And, it is actually, the more -- the chronic road rager, the person -- if you know somebody that is sort of always aggressive when they
drive, that person often times -- they have actually done some studies on some of these.
They actually become hyperinhibited during the road rage. They actually -- their pulse going down. Their blood pressure goes down. And, actually,
they kind of get high off of it.
SCHACHER: Wow. That is weird.
PINSKY: Vanessa?
BARNETT: I do not know if I agree with that.
PINSKY: No. It is not agree or not agree. That is just a fact. I am not saying all of them are that way, but --
BARNETT: OK, Dr. Drew, it is a fact that you have, but I do not think it is categorizing just those three categories. As someone who has
experienced some level of road rage, sometimes --
PINSKY: Yourself.
BARNETT: -- people piss you off. Yes! Sometimes there are something that happens on that road and you are not yourself. And, it is just an impulse
moment, and I do not think I am chronically road rager or any of the other categories that you listed.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: No. No. You and me --
BARNETT: I think I am a mother with a child in her car who is going to --
PINSKY: No. No. You would be -- there is a category -- Judy, put you in the category. You are the anxious road rager who do escalates.
BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: You are not the ones --
BARNETT: I do not think I am an anxious person.
PINSKY: But, we are not saying --
HO: What about when you are driving? What about when you are driving, maybe you are then.
BARNETT: Just when you take me there. On a normal day, I --
PINSKY: Well, that is what Judy is saying.
BARNETT: Then that is the point --
PINSKY: Vanessa -- Vanessa.
BARNETT: -- but this sounds like a chronic thing.
PINSKY: You are making our case for us. You are exactly what Judy said you were, which is that there is some people that are -- some people are
hyperinhibited and look for this stuff. You are not that. You are the one who occasionally gets pushed over. That is the other kind.
BARNETT: Well, I did not hear occasions, but OK.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: Yes.
BARNETT: Occasionally. That is a big difference. Occasionally.
PINSKY: And that is different than the chronic road rager who is always out there, hyper -- you know, who gets high off of this stuff. And, those
people -- those people actually in my experience have not been that dangerous except they create accidents, sometimes.
Next up, we got more clues about what was really behind this tragedy. And, later, Bobbi Kristina`s family may have to make a very serious decision
about what happens with her life and death situation. Question is, will Nick Gordon be included in this decision? We will hear from him. We are
back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRYSTAL METERS, DAUGHTER OF TAMMY MEYERS: My mom was protecting me this night, you know. She was doing what every mother would do is protect her
baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN RAMOS, COUSIN OF TAMMY MEYERS: She did not go out on a hunt like they said. She took her daughter home to safety. She got her son. She
took the chaos away from her home like any mother would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MEYERS, TAMMY MEYERS` HUSBAND: And, my wife paid the ultimate price for it because of a mistake she made.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAY STEIBER, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE LIEUTENANT: Unfortunately, I cannot ask Tammy what was in her mind at the time of her actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: When road rage really becomes dangerous, it is when there is a tit for tat escalation, that things can really spiral out of control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is absolutely right. And, we are back with Sam, Vanessa and Judy. And, when Tammy Meyers set out to teach her teen daughter to drive,
she did not think this lesson would be end up being about road rage.
And, tonight, Tammy is dead. Police say she was shot at her home where the suspect had tracked her down. Any of you guys in the panel been the object
of road rage?
BARNETT: Absolutely.
SCHACHER: Yes.
BARNETT: Yes. And, I have had some moments where I have lost it. And, as a pedestrian, I am walking across the street, a man beeps at me and almost
hit me because me and my child are not walking fast enough and I lost it. In the middle of Hollywood, Dr. Drew, I lost it.
And, yes, this man could have shot me. He could have ran me over with his car. But, in that moment, that is not what I thought about. I thought
about my safety, my child`s safety and this man was completely out of line, and I had to tell him about that stuff.
PINSKY: And, Judy, Vanessa, definitely not one of those anxious road ragers. Definitely not.
(LAUGHING)
HO: Not at all.
PINSKY: You can see that now clearly.
HO: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Clearly, it never happens to Vanessa. Occasionally. Occasionally, it happens to Vanessa. And, Sam, your story?
SCHACHER: My story was -- Gosh! I am actually really mellow driver. But, somebody -- I let somebody in. They did not give me a courtesy wave. And,
I am sorry, I love a good courtesy wave. So, I beeped. And, I was like, "Yoh, courtesy wave."
Actually, I think I may have yelled that out the window. And, then they just stopped. And, so I had to go around them and they continued to tail
me, Dr. Drew, for blocks and blocks and blocks. They were very erratic.
PINSKY: Yes. That is ridiculous.
HO: Yes.
SCHACHER: And, that is when I knew I was not dealing with a sane person. And, thank God I lost them.
PINSKY: I had a guy just a couple days ago, because I went around him while he was stopped, by the way.
SCHACHER: Right.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: But I went sort of on the shoulder a little bit to get around him, because I was going to an off ramp up ahead. He suddenly flew in front of
me and -- I do not know how to describe it, except that he T-boned the car in front of me or made it as though I would have T-boned if I kept moving.
SCHACHER: Geez.
HO: Oh my God.
PINSKY: And just stood there screaming at me in the middle of a freeway.
SCHACHER: And, you never know if they have a gun.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: You do not know what is going to happen next. I started laughing at the guy. I thought, you got to be kidding me.
HO: I know.
PINSKY: But that could have been bad, too. You do not know how to react.
HO: Right. It is funny until it is not funny. I mean this just happened to me a few weeks ago too, Dr. Drew. And, somebody, actually, tried to
follow me home. I noticed that. And, so, I actually drove to the nearest police department, but I noticed him following me. And, it was the same
exact thing, just a very common place. People cut you, you honk at them. And, then I go around them and they just started following me.
PINSKY: Wow.
BARNETT: That is weird.
PINSKY: Life is too short, people. Life is too short. Come on now. We have other things to attend to. I have a guest, Sheriff Richard Jones from
Butler County, Ohio. Sheriff Jones, what do you make of all this?
SHERIFF RICHARD JONES, BUTLER COUNTY, OHIO: She should not have went back out and looked for someone that made her angry, took a weapon, took her
son, found them. And, had another confrontation and then they followed her home. Then there is gunshots fired.
We have all seen where people get angry in their cars. We tell people, "Hey, hindsight is 20/20." The woman would maybe be alive today if she
went home and called the police. Let the police deal with that. People get behind these cars, Dr. Drew, and they get so angry.
I seen a man in my -- I mean in my civilian police car, I should not know the man run across at a major intersection, grab a guy out of the car.
Punch him in the face and they are fighting in the middle of the intersection over a guy pulling in his parking spot.
PINSKY: It is so ridiculous.
SHERIFF JONES: And, everybody stopped in the middle of daylight. People pull in front of people. You slow down when they get behind you. They get
on your bumper. It makes you angry. And, even like you said, Dr. Drew, when you laugh at people, that can infuriate me the more.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And, what should you do? Should you call the police right then, dial 911? Although, out here it takes a while to get through.
SHERIFF JONES: If we get calls in through our dispatch all the time; where people call in, there somebody behind them. There is somebody on the side.
They got road rage. They will make hand gestures to them. And, it is not just a man thing. There is women that get -- it is just as angry when they
are behind those cars and they -- and it is very dangerous. You do not know who this person is. It could be a drug dealer. It could be somebody
that has psychological problems.
PINSKY: That is right. And, Sam, because there is a vehicle around them, they do not really think -- they do not have the usual sort of social cue
speeding back them.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: It is just a car. You now, there maybe somebody in the car, but they are attacking the car.
SCHACHER: That is a good point. Yes, absolutely. But, I think there is a lot more to the story, Dr. Drew. I am sorry. I feel so terrible that this
woman is dead. Nobody should have to die over this. But, we are only hearing one side of the story. And, that story has already changed twice.
So, what really happened?
PINSKY: I know.
SCHACHER: If they were really scared, why did not they call the police? What are they hiding? There is way more to the story.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree. When I first heard it, I did not think it was sort of -- I was hesitant even to call it road rage.
SCHACHER: Right.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Because road rage sort of started it but this went way far down --
SCHACHER: Did they know them?
PINSKY: Right. And, usually, road rage when it goes to horrible places, like what the sheriff just described to us, it is usually an escalation of
what we call tit for tat, back and forth for a while. Not this sudden explosion and then I am going to go home and get a weapon and go back out.
That is unusual.
And, please, people, let us not do that. And, do not assume -- do not assume that that other person`s mind is working like yours. Make the
contrary assumption that anything is possible and ask for help if you have any questions at all.
Next up, the vigil for Bobbi Kristina Brown continues. But, Nick Gordon is not there. We will hear his words why. And, let us -- like us rather on
Facebook. You can watch our after show there. You will see our most popular segments. And, sound off on what you see. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Believe me, there are people walking around that ICU going, "What are we going to do with this family?" Because 18 days in a coma becomes a
tragedy. It just is. I do not care if it is medical. I do not care what the reason is. She is in a coma for 18 days, that is a profound situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: The family is right now being selfish in keeping her alive and not facing and tackling those tough decisions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They want Bobbi Kristina to live. They want everyone`s prayers to support that. That they have seen some positive
signs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: We are hearing the family on the outside of the building saying, "Everything is stable. Everything is
looking good. We think she is actually getting better." Behind the scenes, they may be having a more direct face to face conversation --
PINSKY: I hope so.
DR. LLOYD: -- what needs to happen going forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: If she wakes up, she is not going to be Bobbi Kristina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Right back with Vanessa Barnett, Dr. Bill Lloyd joins me, surgeon/pathologist. Nikki Gilbert Daniels, R&B artist and producer.
Nicci knows Bobbi Kristina and was with Whitney shortly before her death.
Bobbi Kristina has been on life support now for 19 days, almost three weeks. Is that right, 19 -- Almost three weeks. Now, Nicci, what about
the report that the Brown family wants to be paid for interviews about Bobbi Kristina? I have heard a lot of rumor about maybe that recently.
NICCI GILBERT-DANIELS, R&B ARTIST/PRODUCER: Wow. OK, well that is news to me, Dr. Drew. Because I had not heard that and I hope that that is not the
case. Family tends to be -- when you grieving and there is a problem, especially in our community, there seems to always be sort of that family
dynamic where one person wants something and the next want the other and they fight about it. But I hope to God that they are not asking for money
for interviews.
PINSKY: OK.
DANIELS: I hope that is such a vicious, awful rumor.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. And, we have also -- I will take your word for that. And, we have a new statement from Nick Gordon. This is Bobbi Kristina`s boyfriend
who -- maybe husband. Bobby Brown says no. He is begging to be with her in the hospital.
His lawyer has a comment. I am going to read it to you. "Nick has been trying privately to do everything he can so see Bobbi Kristina
cooperatively. He has respected the family`s wishes and for that reason, alone, has not returned to the hospital and risked a public confrontation.
But, he desperately wants to be with the one he loves and continues to hope that his request will be granted."
Vanessa, I am beginning to talk to some people who really are sympathetic to him and wonder if they should allow him in and maybe he does have -- you
know, he genuinely cares about this girl.
BARNETT: I am sure he does. I am sure he loves her. And, I am sure they did have something special. She walked around and called him her husband
back in the day. f he was her husband, it would not be difficult for him to get inside of that room and be near his wife.
PINSKY: Right.
BARNETT: And, that is just point-blank period. Now, what I will say is that, yes, they share something. But if he was someone toxic in her life
or as reported that he was involved in this tragic situation, then, no, he should be nowhere near the hospital. I do not want him in the parking lot.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: He needs to be far away from her.
PINSKY: There are so many unanswered questions, so many issues swirling around. I know, Dr. Lloyd, I know the physicians at the hospital know a
lot more than we do. But, we are going to try to speculate. We are going to try to make sense on what is going on here.
You and I are going to do our little curbside consult. You know, at day ten, Dr. Lloyd, I had enough of this. We are now at day 19. It is getting
to me sort of silly that we are going on with no plan for when this is all going to stop. Was is it 30 days? 50 days? What is enough, Dr. Lloyd?
What is it enough?
DR. LLOYD: Drew, I am getting tired of being tried to recruit me to your death panel. We have a long way to go. And, I am going to start with a
fact check. After last week`s show, I got a phone call from my daughter who is a physician. She interned at Beth Israel, New York. You know, Joan
Rivers` hospital.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: Anyway --
PINSKY: How long did we go with Joan Rivers, though? We went a week or so and then that was that.
DR. LLOYD: She tells me, you can go with artificial respiration with endotracheal tube without a feeding tube for months -- for months.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: So, we do not need to be talking about end of life --
PINSKY: With the trache -- with the trache.
DR. LLOYD: With the trache.
PINSKY: That is right. With somebody who is -- OK, now, you are talking about probably pulmonary disease, though, not necessarily --
DR. LLOYD: I think you are still being premature about this. And, we do not have the facts.
PINSKY: So, how long? So, how long do we wait? How long? When do -- listen, here is one of the little -- the little dirty secrets about ICU.
And, I spent tens of thousands of hours in one, is that most of what comes into the ICUs, physicians really wish they had not brought in. We really
do.
Because they end up in the sort of internal situations that are not in the patient is best interest. We do not know going in that it is going to end
up like this, that is why they come in. So, they end up in these limbos. And, the nurses and the doctors then walk around going, "Now what do we
do?" And, my fear is that is what this is, Dr. Lloyd. We do not know -- I am not there. But it smells of that. It seems to be that.
DR. LLOYD: Two words, people talk. I have been around a lot of hospitals as well. I was at Walter Reed when the shah was a patient there. People
talk. And, you know what? A tip of the hat to Emory. We have not heard any stories from nurses or other people giving us the low down on what is
happening in there. With all respect to the rules, we usually find out what is really going on.
PINSKY: Well, yes -- if the family tells us. But, the hospital certainly -- Listen, these days people are very serious about these things. They are
not going -- they are not going to let that leak out. They are not going to peaking in the chart, except people that belong in those charts.
Nicci, Let me ask you this. Do family members disagree about -- well, who will make the call? Who do you think will make the call about what is best
for Bobbi Kristina?
DANIELS: You know what, I hope that Bobby Brown makes the call.
PINSKY: Yes.
DANIELS: I hope that everyone just allows this man to be the father, the loving father that he is and allows him to make the call. Everybody is
dancing around this, pull the plug, do not pull the plug, Bobbi Kristina`s bonfire. And, you know, all due respect, Dr. Drew, I am one who believes
in the power of people being able to heal. And, it is really disheartening for me to hear people say, "Oh, just pull the plug."
PINSKY: Well, I think --
DANIELS: That is a very tough decision.
PINSKY: It is too simple to say that. That is what is so hard about this to say -- she is not brain dead. No one is saying she is brain dead. It
is actually a worse situation if it were me or my family member, because you are going end up with somebody who is not themselves ever again. That
is what you end up after these kinds of prolonged brain injuries. Dr. Lloyd, it is the way -- it is a probability.
DANIELS: You are coming from a clinical vision.
DR. LLOYD: Hey, life is all about change. Life is all about change. Have you ever heard of a contingency will? There may be a contingency will in
this situation.
PINSKY: Yes. There might be.
DR. LLOYD: Whitney may be saying -- Whitney may have put in her will that if anything happens to Bobbi Kristina, if she dies because of foul play,
nobody gets any money. It is all going to Emory.
PINSKY: Well, but it is sad if this is all about the money, too, if that is what maneuvering is about. That will be a catastrophe -- Another level
of catastrophe. We will keep this conversation going. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: At ten days, I said enough is enough. We are 18 days in and they are really, let us face it, no change. When you have a person that you
are having to assess their brain function, no, they are not brain dead, but I am telling you, I would not ever want to recover given what is likely to
be on the other side of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I feel this way to this day. I am back with Vanessa, Bill and Nicci. I do not mean to seem insensitive. In fact it is sensitivity that
makes me frustrated, because I have been in this situation many times when the family does not understand what they are looking at.
And, the physician is responsible to represent the patient to the family. The physician has to make the choice of what is right for that patient.
And, people do not have judgment. They do not understand how sad this is. She has been in -- how bad it can be on the other side. It can be really
bad. And, it is overwhelmingly likely to be really bad if there is survival.
Coma for three weeks. A family friend said, quote, "She is not gone if she is still here. She is a baby and she is a fighter." You cannot fight if
you are in a medically-induced coma, because the fight is gone.
We take it away from you with the medicines. So, Dr. Lloyd, would you at least agree with me that they must be convening an ethics committee to help
this family contend with what is likely to be an extremely difficult decision?
DR. LLOYD: It is an ongoing process. Her case comes up probably every single day to a multidisciplinary committee --
PINSKY: Right.
DR. LLOYD: -- that discusses not just hospital finances but bioethics as well.
PINSKY: That is right.
DR. LLOYD: And, they fuse together. This is a very expensive proposition.
PINSKY: That is right.
DR. LLOYD: And, if we were discussing during the break, a diagnosis of brain death actually becomes an answer.
PINSKY: That is easy. That is much easier situation. This is a much cloudier situation. This is somebody who probably will survive if they
move her out of the ICU. But, yet, if they do not move her out the ICU, which means she is really unstable.
And, that just speaks to how profoundly problematic this situation is. Dr. Lloyd, I am so -- I feel defeated by this because -- When do we stop? How
long does it go on? I mean -- Is it going to be 50 days, 100 days? Each passing -- at three days you know where you are going with this. Let me
ask you this. What kind of physician is your daughter?
DR. LLOYD: She is a surgeon.
PINSKY: OK. And, so, she has seen lots of hypoxic brain injuries like this, right? There have been misadventures where people --
DR. LLOYD: Sure. Trauma, all kinds of things.
PINSKY: Right. And these things usually do not go well. Would not she agree with me on that?
DR. LLOYD: There are predictive scales. And, with the information of the physical exam and diagnostic tests, you can stage these patients and
identify what their long-term prognosis is.
PINSKY: That is right.
DR. LLOYD: But, we do not have that information.
PINSKY: No. But, Dr. Lloyd --
DR. LLOYD: And, this is why the audience is confused in watching you, because the audience is seeing this entire enterprise through your prism of
experience. But, they are thinking, Bobbi Kristina is different. She is just one person with one story.
PINSKY: Well, that is right. That is exactly -- you hit the nail in the head. You are absolutely right. It is my judgment based on what I am
seeing between the lines here, which is somebody with sufficiently severe diffused brain injury that she seizes when she comes out of a medically-
induced coma, cannot be brought of a medically induced coma, is chronically ventilator dependent, but not just ventilator dependent, so unstable
medically and neurologically, she cannot move out of the ICU.
DR. LLOYD: When your brain is not working --
DANIELS: Do we know that?
DR. LLOYD: Your brain talks to every other --
PINSKY: We do. Well, Nicci brings up a good point. Do we even know that she is in the ICU? Nicci, do we? That is a great point.
DANIELS: I am saying, the family is saying that she is healing. Obviously, there is an ongoing criminal investigation. We do not know what
the situation is. I would like to believe -- in fact I do believe, wholeheartedly, that Bobby Brown is smart enough and man enough and strong
enough to make the decision if the quality of life was going to be severely interrupted. If it was in fact a situation where it was pull the plug or
do not pull the plug.
PINSKY: It is not pulling the plug. Again, really that is not the decision. The decision is, at what point do we continue these extreme
measures in an ICU setting? Which we keep hearing, she is in at ICU. Those are extreme interventions.
As Dr. Lloyd points out, it is bioethical considerations, financial considerations. There is prognostic considerations, and all of it really
points towards what so many physicians believe when they have these limbo situations is -- wish we had not started this.
It is a terrible thing. How do we help this family grieve because they do not understand what we are saying when we say this is bad. Dr. Lloyd, I
will give you last thought. I got about 20 seconds.
DR. LLOYD: Yes. Take me back to the point where you said that doctors are going to be making the decisions. I think to the very end, the family
still have to make the decisions.
PINSKY: They do.
DR. LLOYD: It takes a caring doctor to help them see all issues.
PINSKY: But, ultimately, the physician represents the patient. If the family makes terrible decisions, it is the job to bring the family to where
they need to be on behalf of the patient.
Everybody, look at your directives to physicians. Put these all explicitly down on paper so this does not happen to you or someone you love. You can
DVR us and watch us any time. "Forensic Files" is up next, begins right now.
END
