Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Obama: U.S. Not at War With Islam; Interview with Fmr. Rep. Buck McKeon; The Debate Over the Label

Aired February 19, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DANIELLE PIETKA, FOREIGN AND DEFENSE POLICY STUDIES EXPERT: I thought there were some important elements there that the President alluded to. I think first of all calling out Arab leaders on the environment in which frankly ISIS may not exist, but in which there is support for groups like this, the soft environment in which they exist throughout the Middle East is very important.

I think also talking about the trope. This is a war between Islam and the West -- it's an important thing. But you know what? What breaks my heart about this, and I say this in all sincerity is that this was obvious when the President came to office.

He gave the opposite speech in Cairo. He said we don't care about democracy. We turned our back on democracy promotion. We turned our back on the Middle East explicitly, and now suddenly the president is coming around and recognizing, absolutely, this is not just a military effort. We're never going to win militarily.

This is a much longer war. We've got to do the things he talked about, but he should have been doing them the last several years.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You served in the White House during that first term. What do you think? Did the president miss an opportunity in that Cairo speech?

JAY CARNEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think there is a consistency between the Cairo speech and today's speech.

What hasn't happened, however, is a wholesale change in the Middle East, in these predominantly Muslim countries by the governments, by religious leaders towards attacking this problem, the soft tolerance within these societies for this kind of extremism.

I think that it's -- I disagree profoundly with the idea that the president turned his back on democracy. He turned his back on the idea that we could bring democracy through American force alone, which was the attempt made -- and the great failed attempt made -- with the previous administration.

PIETKA: He did cut democracy funding dramatically.

CARNEY: The two longest wars in our history.

And I think what the president is acknowledging today, and this goes to Jim's point, and what he's acknowledged in discussions to our military approach, is that this is an effort that will go along for a long time.

I think it's fair to say that when he came in to office in 2009 that he was more optimistic about the possibility of ending this cycle within two terms in office. That's not going to happen.

He will bequeath this effort to the next president, and that will probably -- that transition will happen again to the president after.

BLITZER: Let's get additional perspective. Anushay Hossain is an expert on global women's affairs issues.

Anushay, what do you think of what the president had to say, specifically his repeated refusal, once again, to brand this problem, if you will, as Islamic or Islamist extremism?

ANUSHAY HOSSAIN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, ANUSHAYSPOINT.COM: I think it's really important what the president did and said. And I think that it's important that we keep the focus on the fact that this was a speech intended for a global audience. It's an international summit. It's for an international audience. And

I think we should view it as Obama's kind of global pitch.

I think he emphasized unity and the fact that we are united throughout. And he also emphasized the fact that this is not just something that's going to be resolved through a military approach, and that's exactly why, once again, he could not name Islam.

Muslim communities, Muslim allies, Muslim countries, these are going to be really important parts of Obama's coalition to defeat ISIS. So I think his consistency, although it might continue to frustrate his critics and a domestic audience, was very important while delivering the speech to a global audience.

BLITZER: Anushay, thanks very much. Jay, Danielle, Jim Sciutto, Jake Tapper, guys, thanks to all of you.

We're of course going to have much more continuing coverage, the impact, the reaction to the president's speech. I'll be back, 1:00 p.m. Eastern, in a little bit less than two hours.

Jake tapper will be with us for "THE LEAD" starting at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.

In the meantime, the news continues next, right here on CNN.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you so much.

Hello everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: I'm John Berman. Great to see you. The notion we're at war with Islam is an ugly lie. Those were the blunt words from President Obama just moments ago in a speech he delivered.

He said that Muslim nations, Muslim leaders, need to work harder to change perceptions of America. And he also said the world needs to do more to battle the roots of extremism.

BOLDUAN: He was speaking to officials from more than 60 countries. This is part of kind of the three-day summit. The White House has been putting on a summit on countering violent extremism.

Listen to a part of what President Obama said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Countering violent extremism begins with political, civic, and religious leaders rejecting sectarian strife.

Second, we have to confront the warped ideologies espoused by terrorists like al Qaeda and ISIL, especially their attempt to use Islam to justify their violence. I discussed this at length yesterday.

These terrorists are desperate for legitimacy, and all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like ISIL somehow represent Islam, because that is a falsehood that embraces the terrorists' narrative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: The president has come under fire, as you well know, for his reluctance, if you will, to use the word Islam to describe ISIS terrorists. And he's come under a lot of criticism for it.

But he does say because it is, quote, in his words, "not a war with Islam but a war with the people who have perverted Islam."

BERMAN: Want to bring in former congressman and former chairman of the armed services committee, Buck McKeon.

Former Chairman, thanks so much for being with us. I really appreciate it. We're going to talk about the issue of Islam or not-Islamic terrorists in just a moment, but I want to focus first on what the president had to say today, because today he had a message for Muslim nations around the world and the leaders of these Muslim nations.

He said to them, you have to do more that change the perceptions that exist in those nations of America. Do you agree with that?

BUCK MCKEON, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: You know, this is a two- pronged attack. If he wants to say continually time after time we're not at war, you know, let him say it. But I think people understand we are at war. And whoever --

BERMAN: With what?

MCKEON: With what?

BERMAN: Yes.

MCKEON: With the people that are trying to kill us, that are killing people, beheading people, that are burning people. I mean, we're -- we see them on TV all the time.

You can see them marching around in their black suits. Those are the people we're at war with, the people that are trying to kill us, the people trying to take over Iraq and Saudi Arabia, that want to take over the whole Levant area that they controlled hundreds of years ago. They want it all back.

And then from there, they would want to spread their ideology throughout the world.

BOLDUAN: Congressmen, why does the label matter? I think that's a big question. When you get past, is it Islamic, is it Islamist, he says we're not at war with Islam. I think everyone can agree the United States is not at war with Islam.

But what then should be the label? Because the question is what does it change in terms of the conditions on the ground?

MCKEON: I'm less concerned with the label. I'm more concerned with what the president does. We keep sending our troops around the world to carry out mission after mission while we're cutting their ability to do that. We're cutting their funding back every year.

Now I know he's asked for more money this year, more over and above the caps. But what he really needs to do is sit down and work with the Congress to come up with a realistic way to win this. And what he needs to talk about, he needs to talk more to the American people. They are the ones that are really concerned. They're the ones that are having to fight this fight.

We've got about one percent of our people, those who wear the uniform, their families, that are sacrificing. They've been doing it now for the longest war in our history and at a time when they've been receiving great cuts.

And if you just look at the budget, if you cut out the whole military budget, you still wouldn't solve the financial problem. If you cut out all the discretionary spending, we'd still be running a deficit of over a half trillion.

What the president really ought to do is knuckle down and fix our real spending problem.

BERMAN: Congressman, he is working with Congress right now for the authorization of the use of force to battle against ISIS, but focusing on what he said today, it's interesting because you bring up a good point.

Today's speech wasn't directed at the American people. Clearly the main audience was not the United States. It was people around the world and leaders around the world.

What more do other nations now, particularly nations in the Arab world, the Muslim world, need to do?

MCKEON: I just got back -- I was there the latter part of last year, I went to the Middle East. I visited with Netanyahu in Israel. I visited with King Abdullah in Jordan and President al-Sisi in Egypt.

And they are very frustrated. They don't know if we're going to be there to help them. I mean, we're saying -- the president is saying they need to do more. They're on the front lines. They're willing to do things.

In fact, King Abdullah said we're ready to fix bayonets, we're going to go whether America comes or not. But they sure would like to have our help. And, you know -- and here we're giving them a lecture on what they should be doing.

I think the president ought to sit down with him and talk to them, work something out.

And he ought to talk to the American people. If he doesn't want to call it a war, you know, then maybe we ought to just bring everybody home to America and not keep sending them out on these missions that he kind of does in a halfhearted way.

It's like he doesn't really want to do it, but he's forced to do it, so he sends them out, not too worried about what he gives them to carry out their missions.

BOLDUAN: Congressman, let me ask --

MCKEON: I think we ought to have a whole readjustment.

BOLDUAN: On the point of some of what the president said today, many of your colleagues have criticized -- and I know you say you don't care as much about labels, but many of your colleagues think, Republican colleagues, it really does matter, Senator Kelly Ayotte saying it matters because you have to define your enemy in the words that the president uses, Lindsey Graham saying when our president doesn't acknowledge that this is a religion-driven war, it's going to be very hard to win it.

Then what do you think then of what the president says, by giving them the label, it is feeding into the native that ISIS wants, that the West is the enemy? What do you think?

MCKEON: It's kind of like, if we're worried about what they're thinking instead of what they're doing, that's something that, you know -- what I'd like to see the president do is kind of like what Roosevelt did in World War II.

He put the military leaders in place, he gave them what they need to carry out their mission and then he said, Go win the war. It's kind of like Reagan says, We win, you lose.

BOLDUAN: Does that mean ground troops against ISIS in your view?

MCKEON: I think whatever -- whatever it's going to take to win. You have to first decide you're in a war. Then you have to decide if you're going to really win it and what you're going to lay on the line, and you don't start out by telling the enemy what you're not going to do. And then you give those who really understand war, those who know what it takes, what the risks are, give them what they need, and then let them go to work, and don't have attorneys standing there saying, no, you can't shoot now, yeah, maybe now you can shoot.

You know, either make up your mind if you're going to do it, then go do it.

BERMAN: Congressman, can I quickly ask you about a statement made by a member of your own party, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, former mayor of New York, who last night at an event in the city said of President Obama, "I do not believe the president loves America. He doesn't love you. He doesn't love me. He wasn't brought up the way you were brought up and I was brought up."

What do you think of that?

MCKEON: You know, I think what we ought to do is all come together against our enemy. Somebody asked me once, why don't we all just come together? And I said the price is pretty high.

I remember 9/11 and I remember on the Hill everybody pulled together and it lasted for a couple weeks. We voted to give the president authority to go to war. We voted $80 billion immediately to give to the Pentagon to fight war.

Why do we wait till we have some kind of thing like that? It's a pretty high price to pull us together. But I think that if the president won't lead, then the Congress or somebody else has to lead. But the president doesn't seem to want to.

I just think that the travesty of what's going on around the world -- I mean, we're focused on -- right now we're talking about the Middle East and the problem with that area.

We've also got Putin that's taking over Ukraine. We've got China that's just increased their military budget. We've got North Korea who is just -- if they decided to go to war with South Korea -- I mean, we've got trouble spots all around the world.

And as I've talked to leaders around the world, they've indicated they don't know if America is going to be there when they need them. And we just -- we don't really, I guess, set a proper -- I don't think trying to worry about what they're thinking and trying to not upset them over there, I think is just crazy.

BOLDUAN: But it's --

MCKEON: I'm old enough to remember World War II. We didn't have that attitude then.

BOLDUAN: At the same time, Congressman, this president, he won, saying he was going to draw down the wars, draw down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There was a big -- there was very little appetite for seeing more U.S. involvement, U.S. ground troops in the Middle East. The opinion is shifting a little bit right now in the face of the threat of ISIS.

MCKEON: Well, sure.

BOLDUAN: Do you think then that the U.S. has not done enough in terms of this coalition fight against ISIS? Because many think that the Arab nations also need to step up.

We've seen Jordan committing air strikes, Egypt taking on ISIS in Libya, but is it only the United States that should be doing it?

MCKEON: No, no. And they're willing to do it. But they want to make sure that they're -- when they turn around, that we're going to be behind them. They want to make sure we're with them.

Because we talk a little bit here, and then we say, well, we're going to do something for three years and then we'll look at something else. You know, it's -- setting a timeline and telling the enemy what we're going to do and not going to do is not a way to a win a war.

And when you ask people that have dedicated their lives to protecting this nation to go out and do something in a halfhearted way and don't give them what they need and don't let them do the things that they need to do to win, shame on us.

And I think if the president would talk late bit more to the American people about the good things that our troops have accomplished in Afghanistan instead of pulling them out and not really letting them ever feel good about the things that they've accomplished -- I've been there. I've seen what they've accomplished.

I've seen the young people that are able to go to school, the girls that can go to school that couldn't go before under the Taliban. I was in Iraq, and to see that we precipitously pull our troops out and now look at what's happening there, and the president talking about doing the same thing in Afghanistan. It's a very frustrating thing to see and to hear our leaders, other leaders around the nation and then to see our military people, what they're asked to do. They never complain. They salute and take the hill or whatever they're asked to do. We should not ask them to do things that we're not willing to stand behind them and give them the resources and things they need to carry out their missions.

BERMAN: Congressman Buck McKeon, stand by for a moment here. We're joined on set here by Bobby Ghosh, CNN's foreign affairs analyst.

Bobby, we learned that the president -- we've been listening to the former chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. President Obama yesterday talked about what the United States should and shouldn't do in the battle against terror. What the United States should and shouldn't call it. Today, the speech was directed more at nations around the world. He talked about the Muslim world in particular and leaders from these nations. He said these leaders, people in these countries, need to address the perceptions of America inside these countries. He's talking about U.S. allies.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, he is. And he's right. My frustration is that he didn't name names, although you can understand why he wouldn't do it. Hopefully in private when the television cameras are switched off, some more tough talking is taking place directly with leaders like --

BERMAN: Well you name names here.

GHOSH: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE. These are countries that finance the extremist schools around the world. Pakistan, where this ideology is preached. They're preaching hatred towards Americans. That is something that needs to be worked on, while talking American dollars in aid. But they're also preaching hatred amongst each other. Sunni Madrassa preach that the Shia deserve to be slaughtered. You have Shias preachers who are teaching that the Sunnis deserve to be slaughtered.

This kind of dialogue and discussion, this kind of teaching, sort of creates the ecosystem in which groups like ISIS and Shiite extremist groups arise. Those governments turn a blind eye to what's going on in their own countries. Sometimes directly or indirectly they encourage what's going on in those countries and export that ideology to other countries. Those names need to be named and those people need to be held to account.

BOLDUAN: Let's remind our viewers of the key line from today's speech by President Obama. It gets to one of the frustrations that the congressman has. I want your take on it as well. Here is a little more of President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The notion that the West is at war with Islam is an ugly lie. And all of, have a responsibility to reject it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: He says -- the president says that in just having this fight, it feeds into the narrative that ISIS wants, that the U.S. is at war with Islam. The Congressman, he said very clearly, that the labels -- we shouldn't be trying to get into the minds of ISIS, we should be more looking at how to take on ISIS. Do you think there's a problem there that the president is focusing on labels, even though a lot of folks outside of the White House are focusing a lot on labels?

GHOSH: I think we do need to get into the minds of ISIS. We've defeated them in the battlefield before. The congressman is arguing that we need to fight them and defeat them in the battlefield. We've done that, we did that with the previous iteration when it was still called al Qaeda in Iraq. We used American military power, we used some savvy local knowledge, we used local tribes, turned them against al Qaeda in Iraq and we defeated them. But we weren't in their minds. That was part of the problem. We didn't see them, we weren't paying attention when they revived and came back. So yeah, we need to fight them on the battlefield, but we need to fight them on social media, we need to fight them in those Madrassas. We need to fight them on Iraqi television, Pakistani television. This is not a one-dimensional fight. We're not going to defeat this enemy if we don't know the way they think.

BERMAN: Congressman McKeon, if you're still with us, can we bring you back in to respond to that? Look, there's the battlefield, there's where the United States and its coalition partners are bombing right now. But there's also the war of ideas. Is the president right that more needs to be done on that front?

MCKEON: Sure. I agree with that. I think there does have to be more done there. But I'm saying we need to do more with our troops in fighting the war, too. One way to get in these people's minds is to have them scared to death of us. They're not. That's what needs to be happening. They only respect force, and when we pussyfoot around and kind of halfheartedly do something, it's really not going to carry the day.

BOLDUAN: When you talk about pussyfooting around, though, one thing that is before Congress that Congress could do to help the president in this fight is pass this authorization of use of military force. I know for our viewers it sounds like a lot of Washington jargon, but you know what this means, Congressman, very, very well. Will Congress pass this? Because right now, that's a real question even amongst your Republican colleagues.

MCKEON: There's not unanimity on anything. Some people want to do more, some people want to do less. Some people would like to close their eyes and hope it would just go away. If they pass something that ties the president's hands or if they do something that limits our ability to really engage the enemy, then I think they shouldn't do anything.

BERMAN: Congressman, it seems the solution you have is only more troops, more force. Is that all you want here? And is that enough? There were hundreds of thousands of troops in Iraq, and there are a hundred thousand troops in Afghanistan. It can't just be troops, can it?

MCKEON: Well, if that's what it takes. What I'm saying is don't tell the enemy what you're not going to do. Don't say we're not going to put ground forces in, or we're going to be out of there in a year or two years, or we're only going to put in enough to try to contain things. We're not in this to really win it. You go on forever and ever. It's no wonder the American people are tired of it. They don't hear from the president what we need to do to win this thing. The military isn't called in and said, look, we want you to win it. You tell us what to win it and we'll give you whatever you need. Every time they ask for troops, they get less than they ask for. The troops are pulled out before they should be. Yeah, we won the war in Iraq and we've lost the peace.

BOLDUAN: Bobby, final thought from you?

GHOSH: One final thought on this matter of labeling, this is not the first president to keep the word Islamic out. The previous president described his campaign, if you like, as the global war on terrorism, not the global war on Islamic terrorism. This is the second American president, two different parties, both arrived at the same conclusion that putting the word Islamic there solves no problems and possibly creates more. I think that's worth noting.

BOLDUAN: I think so, too. Bobby Ghosh, great to see you. Thank you so much.

Congressman Buck McKeon, it's always great to have you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much for coming in.

MCKEON: Thanks for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

BERMAN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: President Obama has been taking heat for referring to ISIS as Islamic -- to not referring to ISIS as Islamic terrorists or Islamic extremists, as many say he should be, saying that he's missing it when he's not referencing that label. He's been explaining why he's so careful with his wording. Here is a little bit more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We must never accept the premise that they put forward because it is a lie, nor should we grant these terrorists the religious legitimacy that they seek. They're not religious leaders. They're terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The president, that was his speech yesterday. He also said the United States is not at war with Islam, but the people who have perverted that faith.

Want to bring in CNN political commentator Sally Kohn and Ana Navarro. Ana, thanks so much for being with us. Sally, you are here with us right now.

Sally, what do you make about that? There's a lot of debate now about what we call it, what we don't call it. Is too much being made of this discussion?

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, this is yet another excuse, bash the president. He's not going after them militarily, say the Republicans who haven't met a war they didn't like. He does that, and now we still have to find something to criticize. He hasn't gotten Congress approval. Oh, he seeks that. Now we still have to find something to criticize.

Now, we just don't like the words he's using. As has been pointed out, President Bush before was also very careful at not telegraphing the false idea that we were at a war with Islam. And I would make two points to the critics out there: 1 is, what exactly do you think it serves, other than your own ideological agenda, if the president actually names it (INAUDIBLE) But does it actually combat the terrorism to call it Islamic terrorism further? And the other point is, when there are incidents in this country and elsewhere of Christians going on murderous rampages and killing numbers of people, I don't see the same people clamoring for them to be called Christian terrorists.

BERMAN: But the difference would be it's not in the name of Christianity.

KOHN: In many instances, though, it has been.

BOLDUAN: I think it's on a bit of a different scale when you're talking about ISIS who has now taken over land in several different countries.

KOHN: My point is, calling 10 people - Killing 10 people in the name of Christianity or killing 1,000 people in the name of Islam, no one who is a true believer, a firm believer, a devout person in any sense of moderate reasonableness would say, yes, and that was done in the name of my religion. And we don't clamor and sort of blanket call these things religious terrorism, except for when it comes to --

BERMAN: I guess my question is, now we've spent all this talking about it even more, how does that work to defeat ISIS? I think that might be the real question here.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I think the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Yes, we're not at war with Islam. Yes, they do not represent Islam, ISIS doesn't. But yes, ISIS are. They are extremist, violent Islam terrorists. It's not mutually exclusive, and I think it's important to call a spade a spade if you are going to try to combat them. I don't think you should tiptoe around what they are.

They are not moderate reasonable people that you'll ever identify with or that you'll ever get to understand. They are violent terrorists that go after their own people. They're burning Arabs, they're burning Jordanians, they're killing Egyptians because they're Christians. These are extremists, they are Islamists -- Islamic and they're killing Arabs that are Christians -- even Arabs, not just Westerners.