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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Routh Defense Rests in American Sniper Trial; U.K. Looks for Missing Girls; Bill O'Reilly Under Scrutiny for War Reporting

Aired February 20, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: This is LEGAL VIEW. Hello, everyone. I'm Randi Kaye, in today for Ashleigh Banfield.

The prosecution rested. Now the defense rested. And soon the jury will begin deciding the fate of Eddie Ray Routh. He is the man in the middle here who never denied that he shot and killed the other two. One of them, American sniper Chris Kyle. Prosecutors call it cold- blooded murder. The defense team says Routh is insane and built their entire case around the doctors, family members and friends who say that the former Marine and war vet is mentally ill.

Ed Lavandera is in Stephenville, Texas. Also with me here in New York, legal analyst Joey Jackson, retired Judge Alex Ferrer, as well.

Ed, let me start with you here. What's happening right now and what's the earliest you think the jury could get this case?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're expecting to hear at least two expert witnesses testify on behalf of the prosecution here at some point today, so I'm not entirely clear that closing arguments will start this afternoon. Probably more likely I think at this point, although this is still very much up in the air, they wouldn't start until Monday.

But the first forensic psychologist to testify, and that's ongoing as we speak, is a psychologist that interviewed - spent about 11 hours over the course of two visits interviewing Eddie Ray Routh here at the jail in Stephenville. And as you might imagine, what he has to say is completely different from the defense's own medical expert. This psychologist saying that not only does he not think that Eddie Ray Routh suffers any kind of delusion or psychosis, that it's more of a personality disorder, which is not psychosis, and that the psychotic behavior that he did display was induced by drug and alcohol abuse.

And this is significant because here in the state of Texas, that is considered a voluntary choice. So if he voluntarily smoked marijuana and abused marijuana and alcohol, that would have been his own voluntary actions and then therefore he would not qualify to -- under the insanity plea here in Texas. So that is what the jury's hearing about, in the words of this psychologist today, Randi, he said Eddie Ray Routh did know what he was doing was wrong and he did it anyway.

Randi.

KAYE: All right, Ed Lavandera for us in Stephenville, Texas. Ed, thank you.

Joey, I saw you shaking your head there. What - do you want to add to that?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it -- what's interesting is, you always have a battle of the experts in this case. It's no surprise that you have a defense expert to get on the stand and they say, what, he could not appreciate right from wrong. He couldn't do it. He was hallucinating. He was having these fascinations. It was a psychosis. It was schizophrenia.

And then, of course, in the rebuttal case, what do we have, we have an expert, equally as seasoned, equally as skilled, and they say, wait, it was the alcohol, it was the drugs and marijuana. And, of course, he knew right from wrong and so you're left with other areas, Randi, for the jury to decide. Like what? Like what his mom had to say. The distinction between who he was before he went to Iraq and who he became when he got out of Iraq. Between what his sister said when she saw him after the killing. On 911, my brother's crazy. Between the actions that he took. Between the pig flying and people looking like hybrids. The jury has a lot to really sift through, but I think at the end of the day the experts may cancel each other out.

KAYE: Yes. Before you weigh in, judge, let me just share with our viewers what the Texas penal code says about defining insanity because this is what it says. "At the time of the conduct charged, the actor, as a result of severe mental disease or defect, did not know that his conduct was wrong." Do you think, from what you've heard so far, they've proven that?

JUDGE ALEX FERRER, FORMER HOST, "JUDGE ALEX": I think both sides have points to argue. Frankly, the prosecution, of course, is going to focus on what his behavior was like at that time. The defense doctor came on and talked about his examination and how he talked about how he thought they were hybrid men, pigs, that were trying to kill him and delusional thoughts like that. But, noticeably, those statements weren't made to his sister. Those statements were not made to the police in the confession. So his delusion at the time that the doctor examines him really isn't going to be the focus for the prosecution.

KAYE: Yes.

FERRER: They're going to tell the jury, look at what he was like at the time of the killing. What do we know? Well, we know that he admitted to smoking what he said is wet marijuana. Wet marijuana is a term that's applied to marijuana that has been spiked with formaldehyde and PCP. So they're going to use that argument, as well as his drinking whiskey. His girlfriend, who became his fiance the night before, said they were fighting continuously because he continued to drink and smoke weed. So they're going to put that together -

KAYE: Right.

FERRER: And tell the jury, he's doing this to himself. He's not insane. KAYE: But - but also at the time of the shooting, Joey, I mean this guy, after the shooting was over, he reloaded his weapon. He didn't call police. He got out of there. He went to Taco Bell and got himself a couple of burritos.

JACKSON: Yes.

FERRER: He fled.

KAYE: What does that tell you about his mental state.

JACKSON: The Dr. Pepper. Well, you know, it tells different things. If you're the prosecutor, of course it tells. He knows right from wrong. He took these voluntary actions. In fact, when the police stopped him, Randi, he got out of the car. He raised his hand. He complied. A sane person would do that, not an insane one. And that's what the prosecution will argue.

Of course the defense will say, you cannot look at statements and actions in isolation. You have to evaluate everything. Like what? Like the fact that he was in a psychiatric hospital. That he was not only there voluntarily, but he was committed there. Like the fact that he was on nine different medications.

KAYE: Yes.

JACKSON: Like when he was in his confession tape he was talking about the fact that I don't know if I'm sane or insane today. I'm losing my mind. And all of the other factors, including his neighbor being in the Mexican mafia.

KAYE: Right.

JACKSON: And him smelling like a cannibal.

KAYE: Yes.

JACKSON: He's going to be cooked. All of that has to be evaluated. And the jury, each side will use it for their respective purposes.

FERRER: The downside for the defense is that jurors don't like insanity.

JACKSON: Yes.

KAYE: Right, very hard to prove.

FERRER: Nine out of 10 times the insanity plea fails. And part of the reason for that is, there's something in their gut that says, wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I find him not guilty by reason of insanity, some day this guy, lunatic or whatever you want to call him, is going to be walking the street with me? So there's this innate desire to not release somebody who they feel is dangerous.

KAYE: Yes.

JACKSON: And, briefly, Randi, on that point.

KAYE: All right. Real quick.

JACKSON: If you look ill, you know, I could tell. All right, you're coughing, you're sneezing and everything else. I can't see your mind. And so therefore there's a skepticism by the jury. But if ever there's a case they can make it, this may be the case.

KAYE: All right. We'll leave it there. Joey, judge, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thank you.

FERRER: Thank you.

KAYE: Meanwhile, prosecutors in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial don't have a murder weapon and they also don't have the shoes they say he was wearing at the industrial park where Odin Lloyd was killed. Investigators took this picture of a pair of Nike Air Jordans during one of their first searches of his home. But, guess what, they didn't take them in as evidence. The shoes are a big deal because investigators have been trying to connect shoe impressions found near Lloyd's body to Aaron Hernandez.

Just ahead, a desperate search happening right now for three British girls, most likely on their way to Syria, and most likely looking to join ISIS.

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KAYE: OK, this is urgent and it's happening right now. Police officials in Britain desperately want to know the whereabouts of three teenage girls, not only because they're missing, but because of where they might be going. They're all schoolgirls, one is 16, two of them are 15. The last anyone knew, they flew from London to Istanbul and police have good reason to believe that they're trying to get to Syria lured by ISIS. In London, CNN's Nima Elbagir joins us, also Michael Weiss, author of the book "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror."

Nima, let me ask you first, what makes police in London so sure that these girls are headed for Syria?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, Randi, the numbers lead police to believe that this is actually now a phenomenon. It is a huge concern. And all of these young girls and young women fit the same kind of M.O., they are heading to Istanbul, they are British Muslim, they usually are within the same network. These girls were friends with another girl who was almost apprehended on her way in December. Police actually stopped the plane she and her friend were on while it was taxiing on the runway. One girl was returned to her family. The other escaped and is believed to be in Syria.

So it is within a similar network. They're of a similar profile. But also, when young girls of this age head towards Istanbul or even young men, it has become such a trend that police see the signs and they know that they are going to join or hoping to join ISIS. KAYE: And you've seen websites and message boards where the jihadis

actually have fans, right? I mean they're treated like pop idols pretty much or even rock stars. I mean what do you find on those message boards?

ELBAGIR: An extraordinary level of infatuation. One contact who studies this within the intelligence services here, he likened it to Hollywood heartthrobs. The messages that we -- I'm an Arabic speaker and a lot of this is - it's exchanged in Arabic, the messages about who's hotter, who they would make a better wife to, whose babies they want. It is extraordinarily disturbing. It was also likened by another researcher for us to almost like the grooming my pedophiles. They lure the girls in. They sell them this allusion, this mythology and they breed on that very young naivety, that infatuation. Obviously when the girls get there, it's a very different, very violent reality. But once they're there, they can't leave and that's why this window now is so crucial to authorities. They believe they are still in Istanbul and they're trying to get the word out, Randi.

KAYE: Yes, certainly very urgent. Nima, thank you very much for that.

Michael, let me ask you, because, I mean, it certainly - it sounds like, you know, they're treating them like heartthrobs and they're certainly thinking that it's going to be just lovely when they get there, but really the conditions are horrific.

MICHAEL WEISS, AUTHOR, "ISIS: INSIDE THE ARMY OF TERROR": Yes, I mean, you know, once you get there, you can't leave. If you trying to leave, they'll kill you. But it is true, a lot of the guys who have gone off to join ISIS started out either in the west or in Muslim or Middle Eastern countries. There's one guy, an Egyptian, who I guess he was a bodybuilder, he has all these pictures of himself looking rather fit on the Internet, and he's become one of these heartthrobs. And then this - that image is kind of posed with an image of him essentially with a long black beard and, you know, now he's a willing executioner of ISIS.

KAYE: Well, what happens to them when they get there? If they get there.

WEISS: Well, they are - they become the brides of ISIS fighters. And they're essentially held in a state of bondage. A lot of these girls -- there was a case of two Austrian girls who went off to ISIS for this very reason. They became the wives of ISIS fighters and then then were completely disillusioned once they got there and realized what this entailed. They tried to leave and they were killed.

So, you know, Muslim girls that are being attracted to these guys on the Internet, I mean, look, I've had conversations with ISIS guys on Skype. I understand what they're trying to do and the way they're trying to brainwash people. Come to Raqqa. Everything we - that you want, we have here. We have Internet. We have, you know, video games. There's all manner of food. All the creature comforts that you're accustomed to in the west or whatever -- wherever you're from, you can get it here, but you will be a true Muslim, you will be, you know, kind of fulfilling your mission as a custodian of the new caliph project.

KAYE: Yes.

WEISS: It's a very powerful message.

KAYE: Let me share some numbers with you and our viewers. The U.S. government estimates that out of 20,000 people from 90 different countries fighting for ISIS, 3,500 are from the west, more than 150 are American. What is the appeal in general for westerners?

WEISS: It depends. There are different typologies of foreign fighters going off to fight with ISIS. Some people are just, I mean, losers in their own society, to use a very stark term. They're members of criminal gangs. They're attracted. There's something inherent in them that is lured to ultraviolence, which ISIS, of course, embodies and has this rather exhibitionist attempt to try and use that as a form of recruitment. Then there are those who are pious Muslims but are watching what ISIS is selling, which namely is the degradation and destruction of Sunni Muslims throughout the Middle East and Syria and Iraq and the rest of the world. They are saying that the United States is at war with Islam. So that's -- that's another appeal.

KAYE: Right.

WEISS: Then there are those who have no religious background whatsoever and, you know, they just think, hey, wouldn't it be great to go do a jihad once they get there. Those guys actually, the damp clay that they represent to ISIS, that's perfect for ISIS because they want to build you up in their image.

KAYE: Yes.

WEISS: They want to teach you their version of Islam.

KAYE: They can mold them.

WEISS: Yes. I mean a lot of guys we interviewed for the book said I didn't - I couldn't even give you one sura (ph), one hadith (ph), and then I came there and then the brothers showed - it was like the scales fell from my eyes. The brothers showed me the true path of the prophet. It's like, you know, any kind of cult known to man.

KAYE: So disturbing. Yes, absolutely. Michael Weiss, nice to see you.

WEISS: Sure.

KAYE: Thank you.

Up next, you might call it the Brian Williams factor. One of the Fox News Channel's biggest names fighting back now against allegations of exaggerating war stories.

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KAYE: He has already been suspended for six months for his exaggerated story about an Iraq war mission. Now Brian Williams has stepped down from a group dedicated to promoting military valor and heroism. The Congressional Medical of Honor Foundation announced yesterday that the NBC "Nightly News" anchor resigned from the group's board of directors. He had served on the board since 2006.

Meantime, his daughter Allison is putting her wedding plans on hold, according to E Entertainment, in part because of work and in part because of her father's suspension.

Fox News host Bill O'Reilly is firing back, angrily denying he has his own Brian Williams problem dating back to his days covering the Falkland's War as a reporter for CBS News. "Mother Jones" magazine says O'Reilly repeatedly claimed he experienced combat during the 1982 conflict between England and Argentina and they used this clip from Fox News in April 2013 as an example.

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BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS: I was in a situation one time in a war zone in Argentina in the Falklands where my photographer got run down and then hit his head and was bleeding from the ear on the concrete and the army was chasing us. I had to make a decision, and I dragged him off. You know, but at the same time I'm looking around and trying to do my job but I figured I had to get this guy out of there because that was more important.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Now, the situation that he's referring to happened in Buenos Aries during a riot after the war. He was never over the Falkland Islands, which are about 1,200 miles away from Buenos Aries.

CNN's senior media correspondent Brian Stelter is joining me now. Along with him, Frank Sesno, director of the school of media and public affairs at George Washington University.

Good to see both of you guys.

Brian, let me start with you. Bill O'Reilly coming out pretty strongly against these accusations. What's he saying?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: It's the only way he knows how, right -

KAYE: That is true.

STELTER: Is to come out strongly. He calls this "Mother Jones" reporter David Corn a guttersnipe. He says he's a liar. Says he's -- even words I can't use that O'Reilly was using in interview last night, really trying to attack the messenger. And, frankly, it said less about the message itself. But O'Reilly says he's not misled people. He's always been accurate about his experiences in these areas.

There are some discrepancies, though, between what O'Reilly had said in the past and what he's saying now. I can show you a quote from his book "The No Spin Zone" in 2001. KAYE: Sure.

STELTER: He says, "you know, I'm not that easily shocked. I've reported on the ground in active war zones from El Salvador to the Falkland Islands." Well, as we've pretty well established here, he was never actually at the islands. No American correspondents were. So there are some discrepancies in what he has said over the years.

KAYE: Frank, why don't you weigh in here, because I'm curious, I mean, you covered this same war. What can you tell us about access there?

FRANK SESNO, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: There wasn't much. And, in fact, there wasn't any. We were covering the war from Buenos Aries, as Bill says when he says, I was in the war zone, the closest you got to the war zone were the streets outside the presidential palace when, as Bill points out, there were these occasional demonstrations. Sometimes they were threatening, but it wasn't a war zone. And I think that Bill is trying to say, well, wait a minute, maybe it's defined the war zone broadly. But the way you have to hear those remarks when he says, I was in a war zone, it makes it sound like the combat was going on around him. And now he's making it clear that he was not there. None of us were anywhere near it.

KAYE: And, Brian, now "Mother Jones" is also reporting that there may be even issues about his reporting from Buenos Aries, as well.

STELTER: Yes, they've questioned, you know, at one point O'Reilly talked about people dying in the streets during these riots. It's, according to "Mother Jones," hard to back up the reports that there were people killed. There were -- it was a violent riot that O'Reilly was present at, but there's questions about, you know, whether people actually died there or not.

Now, O'Reilly says "Mother Jones" is out to get him. It's a left leaning publication. And they say that David Corn, one of the authors, is, you know, been out to get Fox for years. David Corn actually used to work for Fox as a contributor many years ago. He now works at MSNBC as an analyst. So people are saying that that's also some sort of connection that shows bias.

But the facts here are not really in dispute. Maybe O'Reilly doesn't like the messenger, but the facts here are that O'Reilly does seem to have puffed up his story about his covering this experience many, many years ago. And by the way, you know, he was actually doing reporting. He was there. He was in Argentina.

KAYE: Right.

STELTER: We should make that clear. But to go a step further and say he's seeing combat, that he was in a combat situation, this is very much under scrutiny.

KAYE: So, Frank, do you think, I mean, is it fair even to compare him to Brian Williams? I mean the opinioned host of a cable talk show. He's certainly not the managing editor in the face of a network's flagship newscast. SESNO: Well, first I think it's fair to compare him against himself. I

think it's fair to compare anybody against themselves, and that should be the first comparison. If you are saying things that are not true or you're exaggerating your story, you're going to get called on it. And whether you're going to get called by a left wing reporter at a left wing news organization or from a blogger, you're going to get called on it and you better answer it. You have to answer it. That's the world we live in and certainly Bill knows this because he calls plenty of people on the things they do and the inconsistencies in their lives and what they've said all the time.

Is the comparison fair? Not really because Brian was the managing editor and the presenter of the flagship news program. His opinion, his story was not supposed to be part of that. In Bill O'Reilly's case, it's all about Bill. And while he still shouldn't exaggerate and if he does he should be called on it, it's a very different role. And that's why we're seeing such a different response. NBC shut down, Brian Williams shut down. They haven't said a thing. Bill O'Reilly is coming out guns blazing and I bet you anything the cavalry from Fox is firmly behind him and they're saying, charge on, Bill, we've got your back.

KAYE: Yes. How do you think -- what do you think is going on inside Fox News right now?

STELTER: Yes, Fox is a place that does not like to back down, does not like to apologize if it doesn't have to. We saw a series of apologies recently for their comments on air about no go zones. But that was - that was an unusual situation. Fox is a network that is deeply loyal and a network that does not like to retrench or seem like it's backing down. So I agree with Frank, you know, we're seeing a very different response for that reason. I don't think O'Reilly is in any trouble at Fox. Id' be shocked if he was. He's the number one host on that channel, so they have a lot, you know, he's very important to that channel. And --

KAYE: Yes. It's so interesting, though, to see him coming out and answering - answering to this and not the network with a statement or anything like that, as NBC (INAUDIBLE).

STELTER: That's right. And they said that because Fox orchestrated his interview, that was Fox's response, to have O'Reilly come out and really do a scorched earth response. It's a very Fox-ian way of handling things. It's frankly the complete opposite of how NBC handled the Brian Williams scandal. And maybe, maybe this is something that will - will simply make Bill O'Reilly's fans love him more, make his detractors (ph) hate him more.

KAYE: Yes.

STELTER: It might be the kind of thing that just polarizes people further.

KAYE: We'll see. Frank Sesno, nice to see you. Thank you very much. And Brian Stelter, as well, nice to see you.

STELTER: Thanks.

KAYE: And don't forget, Brian's show, "Reliable Sources," airs at 11:00 a.m. Eastern on Sundays right here on CNN.

Up next, a tense standoff and arrest in the so-called road rage killing of a Las Vegas mother of four. The tragic details of a case that's not at all what it first appeared to be.

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