Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

American-Made Weapons Ending Up In Hands Of ISIS Fighters In Iraq; ISIS Has New Target In Its Sights; Giuliani Refuses To Back Down From Comments About Obama's Level Of Patriotism

Aired February 21, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Extraordinary.

All right, thanks so much for being with me this afternoon. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Much more of NEWSROOM straight ahead with Suzanne Malveaux.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN HOST: Here on the CNN NEWSROOM, I'm Suzanne Malveaux, in for Poppy Harlow.

We begin with evidence, new evidence that American-made weapons are ending up in the hands of ISIS fighters in Iraq.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

MALVEAUX: CNN has not confirmed when this video was shot, but it comes as the U.S. and Iraq plan a major offensive to take back the ISIS stronghold of Mosul. Now, the militants apparently overran an Iraqi military post in Anbar province. They seized dozens of weapons including M-16s and heavy machine guns, even armored vehicles. What the video also shows several dead Iraqi soldiers with one of the bodies burning.

Meanwhile, the U.S. -- the new U.S. defense secretary Ash Carter, he arrived in Afghanistan this morning. You see those pictures, and he talked about the plan to retake Mosul, and a possible timetable for this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASH CARTER, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: That is one that will be Iraqi led, and the U.S. supported and it's important that it be launched at a time when it can succeed. And so I think the important thing is that it will get done when it gets done successfully. And I -- even if I knew exactly what that was going to be, I would not tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman is in Irbil, Iraq.

Ben, tell us what you know.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pentagon officials say the United States is now planning for some sort of Iraqi led offensive in late April or May to drive ISIS out of Mosul. But a video posted on facebook showing one battle about a hundred kilometers northwest of Baghdad indicates that the Iraqi army is still on the back foot when it comes to fighting ISIS.

In this video, you see ISIS fighters having overrun this Iraqi base in the desert. They clearly got their hands on dozens of American-made M-16s, a mountain of AK-47s, mortals, ammunition, ammunition clips, armored personnel carriers, and humvees. And this is really been the case going back months as far as the situation in Anbar province goes.

Time and time again, ISIS has overrun these bases and got their hands on more and more American made equipment. And the worry is, of course, that if the Iraqi army is going to be given the task of driving ISIS out of Mosul, are they up to it?

The United States has conducted a crash training course. There are currently about 3200 Iraqi soldiers undergoing that course, 2,000 have already graduated. But going into Mosul, a city of almost two million people, some of the inhabitants who were hostile to the Iraqi army before it was driven is going to be difficult. And Kurdish commanders we spoke to, for instance, have said even in small villages where they've managed to drive ISIS out, ISIS has left behind dozens, and in some towns, hundreds of IEDs has made it making it almost impossible for the original inhabitants to move out, so when you're talking about driving ISIS out of a city like Mosul, it's going to be a huge task.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Irbil.

MALVEAUX: Absolutely.

ISIS has a new target now in its sight. We are talking about Europe, and specifically Italy. ISIS forces, they are in Libya, which is just a short boat ride across the Mediterranean. The country's a big problem now with refugees making their way on to share shores to seek asylum, making it easy for ISIS to actually slip in.

In a video purportedly from ISIS this week, the Islamic state warned they are south of Rome, and with all of the permission, this is what they say, Rome will be conquered.

We want insight from our guests here. Jamie Dettmer, he is a contributor for "the Daily Beast" and former U.N. and state department official, David Tafuri.

Jamie, I want to start up with you here because you're in Italy. And we are talking about authorities looking at warnings here, and I wonder how seriously they are taking it. Are they making preparations? Are they beefing up security here? First, potentially rounding up ISIS sympathizers where you are?

JAMIE DETTMER, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, they are taking precautions and taking it very seriously. I mean, they are taking the problem in Libya very seriously. As you know, the defense minister and foreign minister a week ago was about the lead for military intervention in Libya to block ISIS out. That was clawed back a bit by the prime minister (INAUDIBLE) partly because you are trying they do not have the forces that could lead even an international coalition into Libya. They are about 5,000 front line troops they could deploy.

But in terms of Italy, the mainland, 72 percent is the latest poll of Italians fear an attack by ISIS. They don't believe ISIS will invade, they think they all mount some kind of terrorism. And the authorities are very alarmed. They have deployed 4,800 soldiers on to city streets in Rome and some of the other bigger cities to protect sensitive sites like synagogues, landmarks site, embassies, newspapers. They fear a "Charlie Hebdo" massacre as we saw in Paris a few weeks back.

There is alarm. And they are trying to monitor various sympathizers in the country. They have talked about, or the officials talked about 50 lone sympathizers who could present a problem, but officials have said to me that their biggest concern are the people they don't know. You have to remember that they don't know about it. They have not identified them. You have to remember, about a hundred thousand immigrants poured into illegally into Italy last year alone.

MALVEAUX: Right.

And, David, I want to follow up Jamie's point here, because he brings up a very good point that we have seen these terrorists strike already, Paris, Copenhagen, other places. And now you got this threat to Italy. And there are a lot of people in the United States and elsewhere who are wondering is it safe to go to Europe at this point. I mean, is there a real concern about travel to that area?

DAVID TAFURI, FORMER U.N. AND STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, sure, Europe is still very safe, and it's also a wonderful place to go for vacation or for a visit. However, we can expect, and we should expect more ISIS attacks. We've had a couple very recently. Some of them were not people who were specifically trained by ISIS. They are followers trying to emulate things that they seen ISIS do, trying to make a big scene, and they've accomplished that. And I think need to expect more of that. Europe certainly needs to be on the ready, needs to protect its borders to the extent it can, but we also need to go to the root of the problem.

The root of the problem is failed states and countries that are on the way to becoming failed states. Libya is in the latter category, and moving quickly towards possibly becoming a failed state, which is very unfortunate because the U.S. and Italy and France and the U.K. had great involvement in Libya in 2011. We help with the revolution, we help defeat the 42-year dictatorship of Gadhafi, but now we're not very engaged in Libya and that's a problem.

We need to help the elected government of Libya which is based into (INAUDIBLE) with the security side of its effort to secure Libya. That means training forces. That means providing guidance to forces, maybe providing weapons, and perhaps at some point, we are going to have to do airstrikes again.

We need to confront ISIS and the Islamic fanatics that are in Libya before they become stronger.

MALVEAUX: All right then, I want to go back to you here, Jamie, because one of the things that David was talking about, he talked about failed states, obviously, Libya. But also, there's new leadership in Italy as well, you know, untested leader there. The threat, ISIS threat to conquer Rome, it seems that it's backfired a little bit because of this tweeting campaign that has happened, many Italians taking to twitter to respond in this way. I will read you a couple of them.

It says, tomorrow ISIS strike of public transport, well, good luck.

And another one here, you're a couple thousand years too late.

You know, we talk about how people -- the Italians are reacting here to ISIS and they don't seem to be upset or bothered, scared as they say, you know. They are coming to Rome. They say worry about the traffic and the economy here. It's terrible.

DETTMER: Sure. But you know, we make the mistake as we frequently did in the Arab spring, for example, of reading too much into social media, which is an advantage that ISIS has because they pour out all these propaganda to stoop fair and to recruit people.

I mean, that is -- the tweet campaign here in Italy is amusing, but it's not reflecting general opinion. There is alarm. I gave you the figure of an opinion poll yesterday of 72 percent of the population fearing a strike.

In Rome, it is a lot -- there's quite of lot of jitters in Rome partly because of the upped security presence in villages and towns outside, I'm just outside Rome. People are very worried about this. There is also, recall that Italy has a population of about 1.5 million Muslims.

Now, obviously, the vast majority, huge majority are going to be law- abiding, pro-Italian, and all the rest. But one of the problems its facing the Italian authorities is that there are only eight official mosques here. There are huge number of improvised and unofficial mosques which they are not really monitoring.

So there -- there's room from maneuver here for groups like ISIS or for Al-Qaeda to recruit some of these unofficial mosques without the security services up to speed in identifying and monitoring what's going on unlike in the U.K., for example.

MALVEAUX: All right, and David, to the last point here. Rome, it is home, obviously, to the Vatican, just like Italy, predominantly Roman Catholic, we saw that recent video of the Egyptian Christians in Libya, the mass execution there. Are Catholics specifically feeling ant more threatened by ISIS now in the area?

TAFURI: Well, I think everybody should feel threatened by ISIS. Remember, ISIS, you know, kills Muslims as well. And there's a special relationship between Italy and Libya. Of course, Libya was an Italian colony. And after that time, Libya -- Italy stayed involved. There's a strong trading partner. There is a lot of people who go back and forth between Libya and Italy. If some Libyan ISIS members are able to get into Libya, certainly, they will target Catholics, and catholic churches and other historic places. MALVEAUX: All right. David, Jamie, thank you so much for an

interesting conversation. We appreciate your time this weekend.

Another story we're following, Rudy Giuliani says he is getting death threats now following his unusually harsh criticism of the president, but the former New York mayor is standing by his belief that the president does not love America. More to that straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: Just in to CNN, hours after a Minneapolis police officer was shot while sitting in his patrol car, police say they have a suspect in custody. Now, the wounded officer, he is one of two, who had just responded to a reported burglary. Well, the police chief says he believes that there is now some doubt that this officer was the gunman's intended target.

Another story we're following, Rudy Giuliani refusing now to back down from disparaging comments made this week about President Obama's patriotism. Despite drawing fire from fellow Republicans, rather, the former New York city major says that he's standing by his statements, that the president of the United States does not love America because he has not been forceful enough against Islamic extremists.

Well, former advisor to the president David Axelrod says that Giuliani's comments, they fit in what's a negative undercurrent in our politics today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID AXELROD, FORMER ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT: There's no doubt that race enters into these criticisms. No other president had his citizenship persistently challenged. No other president had a man stand up in the House of Representatives, a member of the Congress, and shout, you lie. And I do think some of that is rooted in people's resistance to the notion that we're a more diverse country and there's a president, an African-American president named Barack Obama. Now, whether that motivate Mayor Giuliani, whether he's simply pandering to that point of view, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Our Will Ripley has been covering the story for us.

And Will, we just heard from David Axelrod, he brought up a point here. I covered Obama back in 2008, the campaign, and what happened when people started to use this chorus of the guy is somebody who is other whose not been raised like everybody else, that it opened the door, at least, to some other racist comments that did occur during the campaign. We heard Giuliani's smack down and say, look, it's not a racist thing. What do you make of what happened in light of the comments?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I covered the, you know, Obama back in 2007-2008 as well. I remember when he accepted the nomination in Denver, and there was so much energy and enthusiasm and this great feeling amongst Democrats that this was a new fresh leader, and yet there was also this new tone that we were noticing even back then.

And one of the claims that was brought up by some now President Obama's opponents back then were not only claims -- we are not hearing about his patriotism, but about his upbringing when he was a child in Indonesia, that, you know, talking about his grandfather introducing him to a man named Frank Marshall Davis, a known member of the communist party.

Well, Rudy Giuliani, this front page story just out today in "the Daily News," he reiterated those comments as well. And he said on FOX News this week, well, Suzanne, you know, why aren't people talking about President Obama being influenced as a child by communists and by socialists? So it's these old arguments that are now being brought up yet again, but by a man who was held in such high regard, I mean.

MALVEAUX: So this is, I guess, my question whether or not this is a political calculus, right? I mean, how is this going to play out in 2016? We saw Scott Walker potentially one of the Republican candidates who really has not come out and denounced this. I mean, he's not been -- he's been asked several times, and he said well, I can only speaking to what I believe, is I love America. You know, if you don't have somebody, if you don't have these Republican contenders coming out and denying this, do we think that's going to be something we will see come to fruition in 20 16?

RIPLEY: The analysts that I have been talking to today do not expect that the backlash of this is going to last into 2016. But you are seeing a growing list of Republicans. While they may not be condemning Giuliani's remarks, they are certainly trying to make a point.

You are talking about Wisconsin governor Scott Walker, whose event Giuliani made remarks at, Senator Rand Paul speaking out today, Senator Lindsey Graham, all these men reiterating their own love for America. And even Bobby Jindal who actually put out, you know, the supposedly corded Giuliani called his office to say that he was behind him. He even put out a statement saying that the former mayor should be using different phraseology, is how he put it.

So I think even in the Republican party, people realize that an attack like this on a sitting president is something that universally is frond upon. And again, surprising for a lot of Americans who still hold on to an image of Rudy Giuliani from 9/11 where he gains so much respect through his leadership.

MALVEAUX: He was America's mayor. That's right. And he led so many people here through that tragedy.

Thank you, Will. Really appreciate it.

And of course, we are going to talking more about it later in the show. The controversy, we are going to explore also how Giuliani's comments might impact the larger races Will has talking about, the GOP presidential hopefuls.

And coming up, we are following the multimillion dollar money trail of ISIS, why experts are saying that they are funded like no other terrorist organization.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: ISIS growing both in size and influence at an alarming rate behind this increasingly sprawling reach is a financial empire that has funded by crime.

Our CNN senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin, he is showing us where this money comes from and why destroying ISIS' cash flow is next to impossible.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the southernmost edge of Turkey. Just across those hills is the border with Syria. The area where extremist Islamic rebels known as ISIS are fighting to create an Islamic caliphate or Islamic state. It is also an area in villages like this where ISIS can make money to finance its wars.

Small oil smuggling operations, some estimate adding up to millions of barrels in the last few months have been uncovered. The oil comes from refineries ISIS has taken inside Iraq and Syria. Why? Smuggled cheap oil is a much prized commodity here, and it does not matter who sells it, even if it's your enemy.

Buy gas at the station just across the border here in Turkey, and you will see why it's so easy to overlook who is selling what. But if you think just knocking out ISIS' oil will stop this radical Islamic army, you don't understand just how many ways is funds itself.

MATTHEW LEVITT, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE: We've described this as the best financed group we've ever seen.

GRIFFIN: Matthew Levitt is a student of terror financing, working previously for the U.S. treasury department, the FBI, and now with the Washington Institute of near east policy. ISIS, he says, is different than any other traditional terrorist group and is funded like no other.

Yes, there is oil. Yes, there are charity donations from wealthy sympathizers in countries including Qatar and Kuwait. But ISIS itself mostly from within, born amongst the crooks and thugs of Iraq, it is, at its root, says Levitt, a criminal enterprise.

LEVITT: They were always primarily financed within the borders of Iraq.

GRIFFIN: It's massive organized crime run amuck with no cops.

LEVITT: Exactly.

GRIFFIN: Want to do business in ISIS controlled territory? You pay a tax. Want to move a truck down a highway? You pay a toll. Villagers in ISIS territory pay for just about everything. LEVITT: There's reports people in Mosul who want to take money out of

their own bank accounts need to make a voluntary not-so-voluntary donation to the Islamic state, to ISIS.

MOUAZ MOUSTAFA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE SYRIAN EMERGENCY TASK FORCE, WASHINGTON, D.C.: They are taxing the people. That's a rouge revenue.

GRIFFIN: Mouaz Moustafa is the executive director of the Syrian emergency task force in Washington, D.C. He says ISIS literally formed in the void made by the pull out of U.S. troops and the retreating Iraqi army. That kind of self-financing mob, he says, can't be destroyed from airstrikes. You need to take back the territory and restore order. Fighters willing to do that are frustrated that the U.S., so far, will not help them.

It's a White House decision.

MOUSTAFA: It is a White House decision. And it always has been. And I think the White House is slowly moving in the right direction. I can tell you that the policy the White House has right now, if they had this policy, three years ago, there would have never been an ISIS Republic out who have gone rid.

MOUSTAFA: U.S. led coalition airstrikes have now begun targeting ISIS locations attacking the oil facilities and even grain silos. But as long as ISIS controls any ground where civilians can be taxed, extorted, and robbed, ISIS will remain self-financing.

Drew Griffin, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Qatar is an extremely important player in the Middle East given its incredible wealth and strategic position in the Persian Gulf. The country has also been a crucial ally to Washington, and yet it's taking heat from the United States for playing both sides in the fight against ISIS and other extremists.

Jamie Dettmer is joining us again and he laid it all out in his article in "the Daily Beast."

So Jamie, thank you very much. It is a very good one.

Qatar has now surpassed, I understand, Saudi Arabia as the source of the largest private donations to Al-Qaeda and ISIS. It is accused now of providing sanctuary money, weapons to a number of terrorist organizations and radical groups in Hamas, Gaza, Taliban in Afghanistan, Militias in Libya, and now we are talking about the jihadists in Syria. So where does the loyalty really lie? How do we know?

DETTMER: Well, they kind of run with the hare and hump with the hounds. And they've been doing that for a very long time. You know, you have to, one, remember, they are a small emirate, they kind of leverage their wealth, and they feel strategically vulnerable so they try to play a lot of different groups, they befriended jihadists, probably to protect themselves from being attack by jihadists, their elements within the royal family, they have 205 princes, for example, who share probably a more extreme interpretation of the official strain of Islam in (INAUDIBLE).

So the older this practice play out, I mean, one of the disturbing things that we will looking at was in on the Friday before the burning of the Jordanian pilot, a Saudi preacher is preaching in the ground mosque in Doha, the capital of Qatar, a state controlled that mosque. And he is calling for deaths to Jews, to Christians, to Shia Muslims as well.

We know that the ground mosque have a tradition of doing this. This was his sixth visit, this particular Saudi, (INAUDIBLE). But there are -- there are examples of this happening in the last two or three, four years, and they are landmark mosques having outside preachers who are Salafi-jihadist preachers calling for death to religious minorities and to people who are of different faiths from theirs.

(CROSSTALK)

MALVEAUX: Sure. And I want to pick up on that point, because you made a good one there, which obviously, the United States is looking at disturbing trends including the mosque that you mentioned in some of the religious leaders who fueled that kind of incendiary language.

But the United States and Qatar, they have mutual interest and we see this, right, in the U.S. launching its war planes to conduct airstrikes against ISIS from its base in Qatar. That there's been a military installation there in the region for that's critical for quite some time.

How do they draw that balance, if you will? How do they actually figure out in what way Qatar is most important and most relevant to the United States in defeating ISIS?

DETTMER: Well, that particular air base you're talking about is the largest one in the gulf. I mean, it is the main U.S. airbase in the region. And as where most of the attacks on ISIS by U.S. war planes are coming from.

The -- clearly, I mean, this problem predates the Obama administration as well. And I think Washington, various administrations, take the view of trying to persuade and coax the Qataris and the Saudis and Kuwaitis for that matter, to be more on side in the fight against some of these jihadist groups. And not just paying lip service to it or providing bases, but really going after, if you want the ideology, which is fuelling along with jihadism.

So I think that, you know, the position of the administration are taking is, I mean, maybe we can pull them along. But there are contradictions here and there are great ironies involved. As you point out in Libya at the moment, the Qataris are being charged along with the Turks of fueling the Islamists in Libya, not so much the jihadists there, but use them as government out of Tripoli. You know, eventually, I suppose the administration will start losing

its goal and there will be a breach. But at the moment, it's more policy of per persuasion, if you will.

MALVEAUX: Jamie Dettmer, thank you so much.

I wish we had some more time. But we'll talk more about this. It is a complicated relationship between the United States and Qatar. And the president, by the way, we should let you know, on Tuesday is going to be meeting with (INAUDIBLE) at the White House to discuss a lot of the things that we've been talking today.

So Jamie, thank you. Really appreciate that.

On another matter we are following, he has been the darling of the GOP, once dubbed America's mayor. But after what Rudy Giuliani said about President Obama, well, there's even some Republicans who are starting to distance themselves from the former New York mayor. The political fallout from his controversial comments. That is up next.

But first, training, well underway for fit nation, but for one person, there's a hiccup in the training. That is knee surgery. Our Dr. Sanjay has the update.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just last month, 67-year-old Linda Garret started her journey with fit nation team. Swimming. Biking. Running. All to get ready for the Nautical Malibu triathlon in September.

But now, just a few short weeks later, the first major hurdle for Linda to overcome, an old knee injury flared up and she needs surgery.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So Ms. Garrett had a tear on her medial meniscus which is sort of the cushion had on the inner side of her knee over there.

GUPTA: Doctor Kerry (ph) was able to do (INAUDIBLE) surgery just a few days after he found the injury, and it all went smoothly. But overall, he says Linda will be as good as new.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She'll do well. She had some arthritis, but a good looking knee overall.

GUPTA: As for Garret herself, she says she's a little sore, but also looking forward to getting back in the game.

LINDA GARRETT, 67-YEAR-OLD: I feel like I can catch up, just a minor step back.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MALVEAUX: Despite drawing criticism from some members of his own party, former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani is standing by his comments that he made this week suggesting President Obama does not love America because he's not speaking out strongly against Islamic extremism.

Giuliani also said that the president quote "was not brought up the way you were brought up or the way I was brought up through love of this country."

Giuliani says that he's received death threats for his remarks but won't back down. When asked about it, Giuliani said, I don't regret making the statement. I believe it.

Let's talk about Rudy Giuliani's Controversial comments with two CNN commentators, Tara Sethmeyer joining us in New York, and in Chicago, Lz Granderson.

And, Tara, we are starting to see people, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, and some of the others distance themselves from the mayor, from his comments. Why do you think that's important for them? Is that a good strategy? I mean, is it obvious? Should they be saying, look, you know, we don't agree with this guy on this one?

TARA SETHMEYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think this is the problem here with this. Given what really Rudy Giuliani said, the implication, I think, it's just an extension of the frustration a lot of Americans are feeling about the president's pathway of approaching terrorism and other instances, being a confluence of a lot of events over six years.

Now, from a political side of things, of course, politicians are going to back away from something as controversial as that. You know, are talking about questioning the president's motives. We don't know what (INAUDIBLE). I don't know. They are looking at running for president. So they don't want to have to go into rehashing some of the more fringe elements of the this discussion that are brought up.

MALVEAUX: So do you think it was fringe, Tara? Because, I mean, you're a conservative. Do you think that was the right thing for him to say that the president of the United States does not love America, his own country?

SETHMEYER: Well, I don't think -- I think that some of the people are bringing up fringe things because it is a valid concern, like I said a frustration that the American people had with the president because of how passive he's been particularly with ISIS and threats of terror, but the apology constantly for America. The constant chastising of America, and I think people are frustrated that the common denominator of the resolve and strength and American exceptionalism that makes the country so great, that comes (INAUDIBLE) that thread that brings us all together as Americans, I think a lot of people do not feel that that's come from this president as much as they would like to see. Even in our darkest hour, those are the things that brings us together. And I think it's a sense of frustration, like, what is he doing? This

is -- this -- I don't know about love of country, that's a little far, but I think people are furious as to, you know, what is it that makes him chastise us and constantly put America down and apologize for us instead of lifting us up.

MALVEAUX: So you don't think he does not love his country? I mean, you said you thought that goes too far?

SETHMEYER: Yes, I mean, I think that we -- weather he loves the country or not, I mean, I don't know. I think he probably has a love for the country like a parent, you know. He is like, you know, when you have your kid who is the overachiever, who is -- you graduates top of the class, but then you have a parent that constantly putting him down and reminding them of all the bad things they did, maybe the kid knows the parent loves them, but maybe not so proud of them.

MALVEAUX: All right, I want to bring in Lz. into the conversation here. Because, you know, it's one thing, maybe it's tough love, right? Maybe the president has putting it out there because he wants the country to improve. We have seen that from many patriots Martin Luther King and others who say, you know, I'm going to call out the country because I love the country that much, and I want the country to live up to the constitution and standards that was set for this country.

What do you think of what's happening here? The fact that you've got some Republicans and some Republicans who are not standing up like Scott Walker and denouncing, clearly denouncing what Giuliani said.

LZ GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Giuliani has the industry that he supports. And so, he has to say things to keep himself relevant. We saw that during the Eric Grant controversy and he seen as now, we see this time and time again.

Ever since he dropped out of the race, he has been finding ways to be keep himself relevant because then conservative groups fly him in give speeches. He says something inflammatory, hopefully, we talk about it, and he keeps him relevant. So this is his industry. This is his business. There are definitely voices on both side of the aisles that do the same thing, and this is just an extension of that.

And it taps into something that I think Tara is trying to say, but she can't help but put down President Obama as she says it, which there is a portion of the country that are not approval -- that does not approve of the president's foreign policy. That does not mean it's passive. It's very hard to say that more than 2,000 airstrikes against ISIS is passive, but they don't agree with the steps that he's taken thus far. And so they find what Giuliani said to support disapproval of his foreign policy.

SETHMEYER: Saying American should lead from behind is an awfully passive thing to do. Airstrikes didn't just --

(CROSSTALK) SETHMEYER: Anyone in the military, they'll tell you that this is not an aggressive policy or the way to defeat the enemy. He won't even name the enemy. So I think that's a fair qualification to say it's passive. Lz, come on.

GRANDERSON: Well, let's look at this in its entirety, right. You talk about the so-called apology tour. Well, let's look at the things he actually apologized for and not just some of the things that he actually acknowledged. There is a difference.

He apologized for the U.S. experiment in Guatemala, for instance, (INAUDIBLE) experiment. He apologized for that. When the U.S. Filipino soldiers who fought World War II, we never honored that they be tow (ph) them that we would give them way back in World War II. when the first thing of President Obama do was acknowledge that and went back and fixed that wrong.

So if you want to look at the actual apologies, there are certain things that he has done. Acknowledging mistakes we have made in the past does not mean he does not love the country. It does not mean he is always critical of the country. It just mean that he is man enough to say something that a lot of people have not been, which is I am sorry. I made a mistake. People have difficulty sending a personalized, and have that difficult decision on a grand stage like that. And the fact that this president is man enough to admit that we have made mistakes, does not makes him less of a patriot, it make him more of a man from my perspective.

MALVEAUX: All right, Tara, I want you to pick up on that, but we are going to take a quick break. We are going to bring you, guys, both back and we are going to continue this conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: All we are going to pick up our conversation where we left off with Tara Sethmeyer and Lz Granderson talking about the comments Rudy Giuliani made.

And Tara, I want to bring it back to you because Lz was talking about, you know, the president is man enough to apologize for things that he felt are appropriate to apologize for and that it doesn't have much to do with loving your country. I mean, you can love your country and still be critical of your country.

SETHMEYER: Absolutely

MALVEAUX: I wonder why is it that Giuliani would go there? I mean, what was the point or the purpose? Because some people think that, you know, he's just about dividing, he is being divisive and about -- what was the point?

SETHMEYER: This happens on both sides. I told you I don't think that I mean, Rudy Giuliani can speak for himself, but I don't think that his attention to do this at a private dinner was to draw attention to himself.

MALVEAUX: But certainly the follow-up was.

SETHMEYER: Well, sure.

MALVEAUX: Doubling down on the comments.

SETHMEYER: I think he, like I said, before, it was generally from a frustrated pointed view that a lot of Americans feel because of everything that has been going on in the country. And the president's disposition of being so disengaged often times particularly when it comes to national security.

I mean, when the president does and we see and American journalist beheaded on national television all over the world and Internet and then he goes off and he plays -- he has yuck it up on the golf course and he was on vacation and, you know, he said he's going out and finger wagging at the American people and finger wagging at Christians while we have, you know, ISIS gaining territory. People are frustrated. Like, what is happening?

And then, on top of that, there are, you know, the president's own words when he admitted that his mentor growing up with a card-carrying communist. He was proud of that. There are things that, you know, are leading to this that people are frustrated over.

MALVEAUX: Do you think the mayor should apologize to the president?

SETHMEYER: No.

MALVEAUX: Because, I mean, it's one thing to be frustrated about foreign policy. It's another thing to question, to say he does not love his country.

SETHMEYER: I think Rudy Giuliani has every right to say anything he wants to. This is the United States of America.

MALVEAUX: Do you think it's helpful in the fight against ISIS?

SETHMEYER: I think that's a different conversation to have. Whether he should apologize for his opinions in how he feels and expressing that and expressing the sense and whether it's strategically the right thing to do, I think are two completely different things.

No, I don't think Rudy Giuliani should apologize for it. If he should, then I guess Obama should apologize for calling George Bush unpatriotic over the debt back when he was running for office. And he want to talk about man enough? Then I think the president needs to be man enough then to look the -- our enemies in the eye and call them what they are and stand up for this country instead of trying to placating our enemies and have a policy of appeasement. That's man enough as president of the United States.

MALVEAUX: And Lz, I want to bring you back in to the conversation here. Do you think it matters? Does it matter what Rudy Giuliani says? Really? I mean, can we have a discussion without this? I mean, does this speak to a larger issue, a disrespect of the president in this very heated time that we're debating war? GRANDERSON: As I said earlier, you know, Rudy Giuliani's job is to

make sure that Rudy Giuliani stays relevant. And this is how he does it by making these inflammatory sort of statements. He's not engaged in policy. He's not having any meetings, back and forth in Washington over the years, I don't -- never recall running into Rudy Giuliani that had just came out on some national security meeting.

His job is to make sure that the money keeps flowing into his bank account. And that's exactly what he's doing. As far as, you know, insinuating that he was not trying to draw attention to himself, that's absolutely ridiculous. Obviously, he was trying to draw some attention to himself. He does that every time he goes out to speak.

Does it matter? It only matters who people who respond to sort dog whistle that he was doing, which is to drum up the otherness of President Obama. Some of the criticisms that we have about President Obama's foreign policies absolutely 100 percent accurate. Some of it is not. Some of it is based upon true facts and what he decided to do was not the best thing to do, and some of it is because we don't like him. We don't like him for various reasons. And part of the reason has to do with his race. So to be able to separate all of that --

SETHMEYER: Really, Lz?

GRANDERSON: To separate is not possible.

No, I let you talk. I'm going to go and finish.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANDERSON: I will let you talk. I'm going go ahead and let me finish.

SETHMEYER: Go right ahead. I'm sorry.

GRANDERSON: Thank you. Thank you.

So what I'm saying is that we've seen this basically since President Obama's been on the national scene back in 2006-2007. There's been this constant criticism or ways to try to put him as some sort of other, take our country back. Is he an American citizen? Let's check for his college diploma and his college degree. And now, he wasn't raise like us.

It's this constant otherness that has an element of racism to it. And people who respond to that sort of dog whistle think what Giuliani says matters. People who don't respond to the dog whistle, either chuckle at it, rolled their eyes at it, or totally don't pay attention to it at all.

MALVEAUX: All right. And Tara, you rolled your eye to it. You have ten seconds to respond because we're running out of time. Ten seconds, Tara, go.

SETHMEYER: Well, I think it saddens me that this always has to devolve back into race. The president of the United States when you're running for president you should be vetted thoroughly. I mean, Scott Walker they're going back to his what he did in college, whether he graduated from college or not. So those kinds of things are totally legitimate.

And the fact the president's associations, his beliefs, I mean, he talks about how he associated with Marxist professors in college, these are things that were out of his mouth. That shouldn't been vetted legitimately. So when you look -- when you go back to that, it has nothing to do with race. So I'm sick and tired of people throwing race into this and that distracts from the legitimate failures of this president's policies or attitudes.

MALVEAUX: We've got to leave it there because we have just run out of time.

Tara, thank you much. Lz, we appreciate it. We are going to continue that conversation at a later date when we can bring you guys back.

SETHMEYER: Any time.

MALVEAUX: Coming up. Oscars, we are going to stay for that swag bag win or lose this Sunday, A-listers not going to go home empty handed of course.

Next we take a look at the $160,000 in gifts awaiting every nominee!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: Winning an Oscar may be priceless, but nominees don't even have to win to go home with $160,000 in gifts. We're talking cars, trips, even weight loss products.

Our CNN's Jake Tapper shows us that anything an a-lister needs is probably going to be in that swag bag.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, fill that bag up as fast as you know how.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hey, want a bag full of money? For decades, Hollywood stars have basically just had to ask.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the money and put anytime that bag.

TAPPER: And on Hollywood's biggest night, some losing nominees won't even have to ask to get swag bags worth more than $160,000 each. That's double what the prize packs were worth last year, and yes, more than three times the median American salary.

So what's inside? Chichi Brands gambling on an inadvertent endorsement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not only are they giving away, you know, thousands of dollars worth of product but they are also paying for the chance to be recognized in the first place. TAPPER: Cheesy commercials such as these may not do much to sell

rocky mountaineer's luxury train trips. But what if an appreciative a-lister were to snap a photo from his or her own $14,000 excursion provided to them free in the bag? Well, that could put the company on the fast track. Emphasis on could.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You really put that stuff in there just hoping that maybe the celebrity will use it or pass it along to a friend of theirs who will use it and talk about it.

TAPPER: Stars who didn't make the cut to George Clooney's wedding in his late promo Italy can work on cultivating that friendship with a stay at the nearby grand hotel Trimezzo (ph). That hotel stays just one part of a $11,500 getaway. Clooney agreeing to your pop in? That's not included.

From 45 bucks and free Hydroxyl cut weight loss products to $20,000 worth of swanky car rentals from the tech friendly premium brand Silver Car, losing an Oscar never felt so nice.

But before the red carpet elite start feeling too special. The IRS reminds us the companies providing these items quote "do not do so solely out of affection, respect or similar impulses for the recipients." Translation? That means $160,000 in so-called gifts, if everything is used, could mean more than $40,000 in taxes for the car stars. Those priceless career boosting gold statuettes, however? The IRS lets you enjoy those for free.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Before everyone celebrates the best in cinematic achievement at the academy awards, our own Don Lemon and Michaela Barrera, they are going to bring you all the glitz and glamour of the red carpet live this Sunday night at 6:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)