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Arab Force Against ISIS; American Malls Threatened; American Sniper Trial

Aired February 23, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you so much. Great to be with all of you at the beginning of this work week. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

For months and months now, the United States has been pushing for Arab nations to lead this fight against ISIS and now a key U.S. ally in the Middle East says it's ready to raise the stakes. Egypt's president calling for a quote, "united Arab force." Its mission, amass a joint military force, crush ISIS and stop the threat that's festering across this region. President El-Sisi in Egypt saying he already has commitments from both Jordan and the United Arab Emirates to send in troops.

But, as of right now, the details are scarce, and there's still a lot of questions of exactly how this force would even operate. So let's go to Cairo, to Ian Lee, who's there for us.

And, Ian, you know, strategically and politically, this is a big, big deal. But, you know, Egypt's president didn't exactly say specifically what he meant by this united Arab force and whether he actually means, you know, troops in on the ground. You listened to the speech. What did you hear?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, he was addressing the nation and he first started off with the ISIS threat to Egypt. And this is a country that's facing it on two fronts, in the east, on the Sinai peninsula, also in the west as well. But he did bring up this idea for a united Arab force. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABDEL FATTAH AL-SISI, PRESIDENT OF EGYPT (through translator): This is a stance that we see that a unified Arab forces together, we see it is now and necessary and an important and necessary because the challenges in the region and facing our countries are huge challenges and that we can overcome those challenges once we are together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: And, Brooke, we don't really know any other details apart from what we just heard from the president. We reached out to his office today. They didn't offer any details as well. But in the speech he also mentioned that Egypt's military's main roll is protecting its border. It's a defensive military. But he said if the need were the arise in the region that it could be used elsewhere, but only with the cooperation of its Arab neighbors. Now, we haven't heard anything else from any other Arab capital. Arab leaders are notorious for not being very unified. So it will take a lot of diplomatic efforts to try to get this coalition together if that's ultimately what President Sisi's goal is.

BALDWIN: Ian Lee, excellent final point there.

I want to get right to my next guest here because we know that past attempts at these so-called Arab unity, you know, examples have really faltered, in part because of this distrust among Arab nation. So let's talk about this with Professor Fawaz Gerges from the London School of Economics. He's also the author of "The New Middle East: Protest and Revolution in the Arab World."

And, Fawaz, always a treat to have you on. And let's just begin with this notion of, you know, historically speaking, definitely, you know, you know, competition, not always getting along between these different countries. UAE, Jordan, Egypt. How do you see this happening?

FAWAZ GERGES, AUTHOR, "THE NEW MIDDLE EAST": Well, you know, I'm afraid to say, Brooke, I don't think we're going to see a unified Arab army marching to Damascus and Baghdad (ph) and Tripoli to crush ISIS. It's not going to happen.

As you have just insinuated, there are major differences in the Arab world. You have fierce regional rivalries in the region. You have internal Arab civil wars. Egypt is deeply polarized, as you well know. The Americans have been very reluctant to work very closely with the president of Egypt, Abdel Fattah El-Sisi, because of the internal political situation. The Americans basically are unhappy about the clamp down against civil rights in Egypt. So even though it's an idea on the table, but I don't think this particular idea is going to fly other (ph) in the next few weeks or next few months or a year or so.

And final point, many Arab states are part of the American-led coalition, as you know. You have Jordan, you have the United Arab Emirates, you have Saudi Arabia, you have Kuwait and you have Qatar. The question is, can the Arab world unify its ranks and create a cohesive unified Arab force on its own. This is the question. Since the establish, Brooke, of the Arab League in 1945, unfortunately, the Arab world has not been able to unify its ranks and create a united force in order to meet the challenges facing its own security.

BALDWIN: Fawaz, let me just back up one second and I'm going to make you answer one of the questions you just posed rhetorically but, why then would the president of Egypt come forward and make such a big, bold statement? I mean this is personal for them. We know about the 21 Egyptian Christians who were slaughtered on the banks of the Mediterranean Sea. I mean you're saying these are empty words.

GERGES: I'm not saying they're empty words. All I am saying, they are very difficult to translate into real action. Egypt, as you well know, is facing multiple challenges. It's facing ISIS in the Sanna (ph). A real militant extremist insurgency. And this particular insurgency in Sanaa, as you well know, it's part of the ISIS coalition now. And also it's fighting -- facing threats inside Libya. So Egypt is trying to find ways and means to face both the insurgency in Sanaa and the threat that's emerging inside Libya.

First, President Sisi, as you know, he called for an international coalition to intervene militarily in Libya. The security council said, no, only a political solution will basically address the ISIS problem inside Libya. Now President Sisi is saying the Arab world should take care of its own challenges. We need a common, unified Arab force to basically tackle ISIS. It's a great idea on the surface. But the reality is, knowing the divisions and the complications in the Arab world and the internal situation inside Egypt itself, I doubt it very much whether the Arab state would stand up and really create a unified force to address the problem of ISIS and other major security problems facing the Arab area.

BALDWIN: But then, Fawaz, then what? I hear your realism and, you know, we know when we've spoken in the past about how ISIS has specifically, in some of those videos, mentioned President Barack Obama by name, has taunted the United States to send in more than simply, you know, these air strikes. They would love more than anything to feel that we, the United States, are coming to them on a much more ground war scenario. Take that - take that off the plate. If you're saying that there would never - or would not likely have an Arab coalition, then what?

GERGES: You're raising really very important points here. First of all, I think you're absolutely correct, the United States should not take ownership of this particular struggle against ISIS and extremism in the region. The Arab states, Arab societies, should stand up and defeat this particular menace to Arab societies, point one.

Point two, that's why President Barack Obama has really constructed a broad coalition, including 50 states and including some Arab states. At the end of the day, Brooke, as we all know, even if you defeat ISIS militarily, you need to delegitimize its ideology. You need to basically show Arab and Muslim societies that ISIS has no vision. ISIS is a dead end.

You need to basically convince the people that basically pluralistic societies, you need to establish legitimate governments, you need to take care of human rights. You need to show people in the region that the governments that they govern within Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Iraq and Syria basically are just governments, are inclusing - inclusive government. Governments that address the real needs of their population. This is the way to go. Yes, we know that ISIS need to be defeated militarily, and it will. Have no doubts about it. It's a matter of time and how much damage ISIS will do in the meantime.

But, at the end of the day, after you defeat ISIS militarily, you need to tackle the root causes of ISIS, and this is abject poverty, political authorianism (ph), systemic corruption, the dominance of parents, the lack of economic opportunities, the lack of hope, blockage in the system, these are not military problems, these are social and political and ideological challenges. BALDWIN: Right. Right. You bring up excellent, excellent points, as always. Fawaz Gerges, thank you so much for coming on, from LSC, the author of "The New Middle East: Protest and Revolution in the Arab World." Thank you, sir, so much.

GERGES: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, a rare first person account from inside the heart, the stronghold of ISIS. I spoke with a journalist who has been reporting on the ground in Syria, offering remarkable detail about day-to-day life in a city controlled by terrorist. Do not miss this conversation.

Also ahead, the American sniper murder trial taking strange turns as it begins to end. We'll talk to two attorneys about why the jury was allowed to watch last night's Oscar awards. Remember, "American Sniper" up for best picture and Chris Kyle's widow was in attendance. And why an episode of "Seinfeld" is suddenly relevant to the case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Now to another potential terror threat. A large scale attack at an American shopping mall. But even as the nation's Homeland Security chief is taking the threat quite seriously, issuing this dire warning, other downplaying it a bit. In this newly released video, the al Qaeda linked terror group al Shabaab calls for the group's followers to attack shopping malls in Britain, in Canada and in the United States. A voice in the video specifically mention the Mall of America, an enormous shopping center, roller coaster, in Minnesota. Secretary Jeh Johnson addressed it directly on CNN's "State of the Union."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: If anyone is planning to g to the Mall of America today, they've got to be particularly careful. And as the statement you read indicates, there will be enhanced security there that will be apparent to people who are these.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN: Federal security as well?

JOHNSON: There will be enhanced security there. But public vigilance, public awareness and public caution in situations like this is particularly important. And it's the environment we're in, frankly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Asked later if he regretted any of those comments, he said, no, but other law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, say there is no credible, no specific threat to malls in the United States. And Secretary Johnson has just addressed those comments at an event in Washington. Here he just was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE). You have expressed your concern about the threats against the Mall of America in Minnesota. What other concerns do you have in terms of security at this point after hearing and listening to all of the explanations you gave?

JOHNSON: Well, I spoke about the situation with the al Shabaab video yesterday on the news shows and we have issued to state and local law enforcement a bulletin about that earlier today. And I think I'll stand on that. I don't know that I have much more at this point to add to that.

Yes, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. Have to keep this in mind though, al Shabaab is linked to al Qaeda. That is the group responsible for 2013's armed assault at that mall, that West Gate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya, and 60 people died in that attack.

So let me bring in our correspondent Nick Valencia. He's live outside this mall in Bloomington, Minnesota. And also I have with me former assistant director of the FBI and CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes in Washington.

I mean, Nick, you're there, so let me just begin with you. I mean we heard Secretary Johnson talking about enhanced security. I'm just wondering, also just given a little bit of pushback from the FBI, have you seen any tangible examples of security heightened?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, I just stepped foot in that mall. We were actually in that mall. We were not allowed to take cameras inside. But what I can tell you from what I saw is it appeared to be just another ordinary Monday at the Mall of America.

Now, the Mall of America did release a statement, as you mentioned, saying that they were going to take extra security precautions, have heightened security. Some which would be visible to shoppers, others - other things not so much, Brooke.

So far, though, from our vantage point, what we've been able to see outside is just one police car in the hours that we've been out here. Now, that does -- that's not to say that there aren't other heightened security measures that are taking place that we just can't see. I think the broader concern though here is that within the Somali community, I spoke a little while ago to a Somali leader who said that this community is still traumatized from that 2013 West Gate attack in Nairobi, Kenya. He's saying that there's a lot of vulnerable youth in the Somali community and there's a potential for radicalization as well, and that is his concern is that someone in this community here locally will see that al Shabaab video and be inspired to sort of carry out perhaps a lone wolf attack.

We should reemphasize, though, the Department of Homeland Security, they say there is no working threat, no credible threat right now that they know of. Right now, though, it's really the concern, I should say, the Somali community, very concerned. Those leaders meeting and talking and having conversations right now, that dialogue is ongoing, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We were just talking to some of those leaders in the communities where you are last week in the wake of the summit that the White House was holding.

But, Tom, let me pivot to you. Just al Shabaab in general. I mean, obviously, considered a highly, highly dangerous terror group. Let me read you something that CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen actually said. I want your take. He said, quote, "the reality is that al Shabaab has shown scant abilities to conduct operations outside of Somalia or neighboring countries such as Kenya." Based upon your intel, what you know, do you agree with that?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Brooke, I completely agree with what Peter has said. They don't have the capability. And up till now they've had no desire to wage global jihad. And, you know, we constantly refer to al Shabaab as an al Qaeda affiliate but in a way they're not. Zawahiri, over the years, required for any terrorist organization within a country to be able to label themselves al Qaeda, they needed to wage war against the west on a global basis, not just have nationalistic interest. And al Shabaab has exclusively, up till now, had national interest to take over Somalia, to take control back of Mogadishu.

The reason they reached out and attacked Uganda in 2010 and the mall in Kenya in 2013 is because those countries are sending peace keepers under the banner of the African union into Somalia to keep al Shabaab from taking over the country. The U.S., up until last September 2014, we launched a drone and killed their leader, so that kind of made them upset, but they don't have the logistical reach, and up until then didn't have the desire to try to extend the attack to the U.S. They did look at the U.S. as a fertile farm to try to get recruits to come over there to help them, but not to come back and attack in the U.S.

BALDWIN: And that's where I wanted to go next because I mean if they -- if they, you know, can't logistically do this, and pull this off, thank goodness, I am wondering, I mean when you look at, yes, they're targeting malls, let's be clear, in Europe and Canada, in addition to specifically this Mall of America in Minnesota, I mean to Nick's point, this is a big Somali, you know, American community. And of all places to target, what do you think optically or perhaps messaging wise really is this about?

FUENTES: Well, they also mentioned the West Edmonton Mall in Canada and that's not a large Somali community.

BALDWIN: Right.

FUENTES: That just happens to be the largest single mall in North America. And the mall in Minnesota is among the biggest within the United States, going to about 500 stores. So, you know, to be able to announce that and the fact that they know there's a large Somali community in Minnesota, in the Minneapolis, St. Paul area, by putting out an order like that, they're looking for some psychopathic jerk in Minnesota to go get a gun, go into the mall and start shooting. And it's not a coordinated that they ordered the attack. They just put that out there hoping somebody will follow up on it and go do it. And I think that's the - that's the problem in this case.

BALDWIN: Got it. Tom Fuentes, thank you. Nick Valencia, thank you very much. Appreciate both of you here.

FUENTES: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up -- coming up next here on CNN, the trial of the man who allegedly killed American sniper Chris Kyle. Jurors were allowed to watch the Oscars last night. How that could play into the verdict, remember, of the "American Sniper" movie up for best Oscar, best screen play, best film, and what a "Seinfeld" episode may have to do with the case. That's right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The murder trial of the man accused of killing American sniper Chris Kyle may be in its final days here. But a little curve ball today weather wise, snow. Some severe weather put the proceedings on hold. The closing arguments. They are expected later this week. The defense says Eddie Ray Routh was insane when he shot and killed Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield. And they point to this series of bizarre statements by Routh. Reportedly among them, have you heard this, claims of seeing friends and neighbors morphing into pig human hybrids. I'm going to come back to that in a minute. Prosecutors reject the insanity defense altogether. And an expert testifying for the state reportedly suggested that Routh's alleged pig human delusion may have come from an episode of "Seinfeld."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL RICHARDS, ACTOR, "SEINFELD": Hey, I just saw a pig man. A pig man. You know, he was sleeping and then he woke up and he looked at me and he made this horrible sound. This eeee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But no one is laughing over this when it comes to this trial. Joining me now, criminal defense attorneys Joey Jackson and Mark O'Mara.

Gentlemen, welcome.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Hell, Brooke. Good afternoon.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good afternoon.

BALDWIN: Good afternoon. Good afternoon.

Joey, let me just turn to you.

JACKSON: Sure.

BALDWIN: And, really, just for both of you, because I'm sitting here wondering, whenever in the history that any of us can remember do you have this real life trial playing out in Texas, you have this film based upon this real story that's been huge.

JACKSON: $300 million grossing.

BALDWIN: In Hollywood. And then --

JACKSON: Up for six awards. Got one last night.

BALDWIN: Oscar night.

JACKSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: With the widow there. It's all this mixing of Hollywood and reality. Have you ever seen this before?

JACKSON: I have never. And then with closing arguments that were actually, Brooke, scheduled to begin today. So it really is interesting. I mean you could say it's creative. It's either coincidence or it's creative genius on the part of Hollywood to make this film coincidence to this particular trial. So very dynamic.

The real issue is, what roll, if any, will it actually play?

BALDWIN: Would it play for jurors.

JACKSON: And that's the big thing. I mean, listen, you know, when Mark waderes (ph) his jurors, when I wadere (ph) mine, the reality is, we ask a consistent question, and that is, can you base the case upon what you hear in the courtroom and the facts and circumstances there, as opposed to what you hear on the street, any Hollywood movies, what you read in the newspaper, what you see on TV. And if the jurors can do that, then, of course, the role is very minimal. If they can't do that, then it becomes problematic. But we put a lot of trust in our jurors to do the right thing. Hopefully, whatever that right thing is, this jury does.

BALDWIN: Mark, do you think this is an odd, coincidental curve ball for some of these jurors? I mean it's not like the judge said, don't watch the Oscars Sunday night.

O'MARA: Right. Well, I think it was coincidental. I don't think the prosecution planned it for this time with the release of the movie. But I will tell you that it's going to have an effect because there's no question there Chris Kyle is a hero, is an American hero, particularly to those people in Texas, in his hometown.

BALDWIN: Yes.

O'MARA: So that is going to have an effect. But Joey's right, what we're really trying to do is say, even though that's true, even though you really like Chris Kyle, can you try this case on the facts and the law? And let's not forget, we do that in every courtroom every day in America. Granted there's not always such a high profile where we have to get rid of those influences, but we ask jurors to be good jurors every day. BALDWIN: And then to this "Seinfeld" episode clip. I mean, Joey, what

was that about, this expert witness?

JACKSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Was that going too far?

JACKSON: Well, listen, you know what, Brooke, it's big. And here's why it's big, because the prosecution will say that, ah-ha, you're fanning mental illness. And, remember that as a general matter jurors don't like the insanity plea because they want accountability. And usually you can't - look, you can't get in anyone's mind. Brooke, if you're sick right now, you're feverish, you're sneezing, you're coughing, it's tangible. I can see it. But I can't look into your head to know what you're thinking.

BALDWIN: Right.

JACKSON: And so whenever there's any type of evidence that would suggest that you're fanning it, you're faking it, ah-hah, you got it from a movie, it's problematic. But here's what the defense is going to say, people get thoughts from various places. How many times do you hear, you know what, kid, you shouldn't play with those video games. They're violent. You get violent tendencies. You know, it's destructive. Well, so too you can argue, he got the thought there as a result of perhaps seeing "Seinfeld" doesn't mean that he's fanning illness as a result of that episode.

BALDWIN: Mark, I mean, we're days before closings. You know, we were talking, Joey and I in commercial break, just about how, you know, insanity, it's basically like, do you know what you were doing was wrong?

O'MARA: Right.

BALDWIN: Right? But it's so much more nuance than that.

O'MARA: Particularly in Texas.

BALDWIN: Talk to me about that.

O'MARA: It's very nuanced. And that's the problem. The people - what we have to look at is the way the Texas statute plays out. Basically if you knew what - it was wrong what you did, then you're responsible for your actions.