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Dr. Drew
Missing Boy Found in Parents` Basement; Slender Man Confessions; Bobbi Kristina Brown`s Tragedy
Aired February 23, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, the slender man confessions. See what two girls tell police about why they had
to slash their friend 19 times. And, Bobbi Kristina Brown, coma, more than three weeks. When is this going to stop? And, is Nick Gordon telling
police what he knows?
First of, well, let us get started with "WTF," the most shocking story of the night dominating social media. A 12-year-old boy missing for 11 days
is finally found in his parents` basement.
Father claims he had no idea his son was there. Prosecutors are not buying that. They say not only do the parents lock the son in the basement, they
tortured him there too. Take a look.
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V, FATHER OF THE MISSING 12-YEAR-OLD BOY: I thought my son was dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Have you seen your son?
CHARLIE BOTHUELL: No, I have not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Charlie Bothuell and his wife, Monique, reported little Charlie missing, telling Detroit police and the FBI that he
ran away.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: We are getting reports that your son has been found alive in your basement.
CHARLIE BOTHUELL: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Little Charlie would later tell investigators that his dad often hit him with a PVC pipe and that it was
his stepmom who ordered him to stay hidden in the basement.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUDGE: You are both charged with count 1, which is torture.
ATTY. MARK MAGIDSON, CHARLIE BOTHUELL`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Corporal punishment is allowed under the law.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR OF "NEW DAY" PROGRAM: This 12-year-old says he was forced to complete a grueling workout twice a day every day.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU!: His stepmother got upset because she believed that Charlie was lying that he did not complete
his evening workout.
CHARLIE BOTHUELL: For anybody to imply that I somehow knew that my son was in the basement is absurd and it is wrong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell," Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com and
Leeann Tweeden, host of LA Today on AM570 Radio.
The allegations are, he has been beaten with a PVC pipe, denied food and water, forced to do extreme workouts. Loni, I think I am going to change
the name of your book to, "I Am A Perfect Parent And Other Lies Parents Tell Themselves."
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Because somebody that -- the attorney can step up and go, "Corporal punishment is allowed" and then a parent that can think that this
is in any way appropriate --
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Come on, now. Is there any defense for these people?
COOMBS: Well, I will tell you. We have seen this before where parents say, "This is the way I parent. I am doing this out of love because I want
to help my child." And, this father has been saying this all along. He admitted to the police, "Look, yes, I do this for my son. I want him to be
healthy. I want him to exercise."
PINSKY: OK. Let us look at what the hell the exercise is. The workout time is two times a day, seven days a week. 100 push-ups. 200 sit-ups.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: 100 jumping jacks. 25 arm curls with a 25-pound weight. Kid is small. 5,000 revolutions on elliptical. And, Loni, the kid is thin.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: He is -- you could injure the bones and development of the child with that kind of excessive activity. You absolutely can.
COOMBS: Absolutely.
PINSKY: How can an attorney defend this?
COOMBS: Well, clearly, he crossed over the line into abuse. But, I will tell you, it is interesting, the prosecutors in this case charge not only
second degree child abuse --
PINSKY: But torture?
COOMBS: -- but they also added torture, which is a very extreme charge. It is usually used in the most heinous and deviant of crimes --.
PINSKY: Usually for dead children, right?
COOMBS: Yes, exactly.
PINSKY: It is not for living children necessarily.
COOMBS: Yes. So, I do not know if that is going to apply in this case, but clearly it is second-degree child abuse.
PINSKY: Now, the father disciplined him. Here is the discipline everybody. PVC pipe on his butt, feet, chest, head, thighs, side and arms.
Beating him with a PVC pipe, often too sore to walk or sit down.
Skin broken in several areas with scars found by the physicians on chest and buttock. Vanessa -- OK. You know, we could have a rational
conversation about spanking, but can we all agree this is insane?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Thank you.
BARNETT: This not discipline. This is torture. They put him in that basement. They did not feed him. They beat him with a pipe. He bled. He
had sores. He had scars -
PINSKY: The mom looks dead, does not she? The stepmom -- something is wrong with her.
BARNETT: Something is absolutely wrong with this woman -- And with both of them. No person with a heart can do this to their own child.
PINSKY: But, think about how people do it in the name of love. I love him. I just want him to be healthy. Loni brings up, he was giving him a
physical --
BARNETT: If there were at least, love there? They would have at least fed him, at least fed him food at the very least.
PINSKY: Let us look at father`s reaction when he is told live on the air by Nancy that the police had found his son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Your son has been found alive in your basement.
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: What?
GRACE: Yes, that is what -- If you can hand me that wire very quickly. Yes. We are getting that right now from -- how could your son be alive in
your basement?
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: (EXPLETIVE WORD) I have no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Leeann, thinking about watching that then and now seeing it now when we have so much more information, do you buy his reaction?
LEEANN TWEEDE, HOST OF AM570 RADIO "L.A. TODAY": Of course not, Dr. Drew. I was actually on your show sitting in the green room here at CNN watching
that live, because we were getting ready to go on your show. I did not believe it then. I really do not believe it now. I mean that has got to
be some of the worst acting.
We had the Oscars yesterday. The guy should get a Razzie first of all. A. He is a terrible parent. Look at her, I know she is the stepmom, Dr. Drew.
Maybe we can talk about that a little bit, how she treats a child that is not her own that she obviously dislikes a lot.
But, they are making this kid do all of this workout stuff under the guise of, "Oh, we are doing it for his health. We want to make him, healthy."
Look at both of them. I think they need to get down and do 5,000, you know, revolutions on the elliptical.
PINSKY: Do not worry --
TWEEDEN: We are talking about -- they abused this child. They tortured him.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: The PVC pipe that they found later by the detective were covered in blood, Dr. Drew.
BARNETT: Really?
PINSKY: I wonder, Leeann, if the wife was being -- or the stepmom was being abused too. She actually told the -- you think so?
BARNETT: No.
PINSKY: Loni, you say yes?
COOMBS: Well, I think there is a difference between the stepmom and the dad. I do not think it is because she is a stepmom, stepmom is necessarily
evil. However, she is the one who according to the victim, the young boy, she is the one who told him to go stay in the basement.
She is the one who threatened him. And, she would say threats like, "I am going to kill you" and "I know where the knives are." I mean it is total
different thing than what the father is doing, which is this extreme parenting, shall we call it.
PINSKY: Oh, please, stop, stop.
COOMBS: Right.
TWEEDEN: It is called awful parenting.
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: That is not called a parenting.
BARNETT: Disgusting.
COOMBS: Yes, but I think the stepmother was doing other things that perhaps the dad did not even know about like, you know, hide him in the
basement and not feeding him. I do not know -- I still do not know if the dad actually knew about that, because the dad went to the police.
PINSKY: Well -- well --
TWEEDEN: Come on, how do you not know?
COOMBS: He went to the police.
PINSKY: Hang on. Hold it, guys.
TWEEDEN: How do you guys beat a child and you do not know that the mom stop feeding him.
BARNETT: No.
PINSKY: Hold it. The dad -- we will find out. The dad took a lie detector test. We are going to find out how he did. And, later we will
talk about an internet meme called slender man. We are going to discuss the responsibility of slender man played in a girl`s stabbing. We are back
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
PEREIRA: He was forced to get up at 5:00 A.M. by his father and complete 100 push-ups, 200 sit-ups, 25 arm curls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. MAGIDSON: When young Charlie came to live with his dad, he was overweight, significantly. Diabetes runs in the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PEREIRA: Charlie said sometimes he could not finish because he was in too much pain. Pain allegedly caused by his father hitting him with a PVC
pipe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: No way was that kid overweight. That is nonsense. I am back with Loni, Vanessa, and Leeann. We are talking about a father so-called and the
stepmom, they are charged with torture.
They are accused of locking their 12-year-old in a basement, beating him with a PVC pipe, depriving him of food, and then forcing him to work out
constantly. My question, Loni, is why did it take prosecutors so long to charge them? Is this the torture thing that it took a while to build the
case to bring it to that level?
COOMBS: You know, I have the same question. When I first heard they were finally filing charges, I said, "OK, there is going to be a bombshell
hidden in here somewhere. We are going to find out that there was a horrible thing going on." But, when I reviewed the documents, it sounds
like the same information that we had back in June when this happened.
PINSKY: But, what is it? What is going on?
COOMBS: I have no idea. They said -- their spokesman said, "Well, there were thousands of pages for the DA to review before he filed the charges."
I am like, "OK, but what? Six, seven months to read thousands ?
That is what you are paid to do, so I do not know. Unless they are keeping something from the media, I do not see why it took so long. That should
have been filed long time ago.
PINSKY: Interesting. And, a day after he was found, the father talked to reporters. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: We had no knowledge that my son was in that basement, period. Oh, my God. And, I do not know that he was in that basement the
whole time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER (1): Your current wife might have been keeping him down there and hiding him, perhaps, from you.
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: That is absurd.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER (2): Does your ex-wife have access?
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: That is absurd.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER (1): Does she say that she is told you were point-blank that she does not know where he is?
CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: Yes, she has, period. My wife would not do that. My wife -- they would not let her in the house, but I want to see my son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Leeann, what do you think? Did he know where the child was? Was he lying there? Or is it possible the stepmom who used to send the child
down for punishment was just sending him down there to get him away from the dad this time?
TWEEDEN: No. I think they are both lying, Dr. Drew. I am sorry. I just cannot believe that you live in a household, that you do not know the
punishment that both of you are doing. Both of them are abusers, whether they are doing it together or doing it separately. You know exactly what
is going on in your house. So, I am sorry.
PINSKY: But, Loni, you think -- not?
COOMBS: Yes. We --
TWEEDEN: How about --
COOMBS: Go ahead. Sorry.
PINSKY: Loni.
COOMBS: We know what the victim said. The young boy told the police and the FBI when they interviewed him, he said, "The mom -- the stepmom sent me
down to the basement then I heard her go upstairs. And, when my dad came home, she told him I had run off. She could not find me. She did not know
where I was. I have been gone all day."
And, then the dad goes to the police after that. And, then he hears the police coming and searching the house. So, there is still indications here
that the father might not have known what is going on.
TWEEDEN: Well, now he believed the wife but he will not even believe his child then?
BARNETT: They would have -- I feel they would not have charged him -- if they would have charge him if they thought that he did not know --
COOMBS: No. No.
BARNETT: -- And, on top of that, he goes and he almost blames the son in that interview.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
BARNETT: He hints, "Oh, well, he might not have been down there the whole time like he run away.
PINSKY: Or maybe -- hey, guys, maybe this kid was sent down there for punishment and he barricaded himself in a corner. So, apparently, it is a
long row of townhouses that share a basement.
Maybe he found a corner to hide in after mom sent him down there to get beaten again or discipline, I beg your pardon, and he barricaded himself
behind some barrels --
TWEEDEN: No, Dr. Drew. I read the police report. The police report said, she said, "Go over there. Over there in that corner." And, she put up
some of the cardboard boxes in front of him. Read the report. It is in there.
PINSKY: And, Vanessa, the dad failed the polygraph test. The mom refused to take one. What do you think?
BARNETT: Go figure.
PINSKY: Yes. Go figure. What do you say, Vanessa?
BARNETT: Surprise, surprise. Of course he failed. His acting was piss poor.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
BARNETT: We saw that multiple times. And, then he is irate trying to deflect the blame on the son. And, then he bursts into tears after what?
20 minutes of an interview?
TWEEDEN: Crocodile.
BARNETT: Of course he failed.
COOMBS: Well, I will tell you this, the son does not say the dad knew he was down there. The son lays it all out about the father beating him with
the PVC pipe and doing all of the exercise stuff, but the son does not say that the dad was coming down and telling him to stay in the basement. He
says it was the stepmom .
PINSKY: I have to tell you -- I have to tell you. Children that run away and stay away or hide -- this is really kind of a running away thing, I
suspect, or kids that are being abused in the home. Kids do not run away and stay away if they are in a home where there is no abuse. So, children
are smart.
When things are excessive, they get the heck out of there. This is insanity what this guy was doing to this child. Of course, you do not want
to separate the child from the parent, but in this case, the level reaches the level of abuse is torture and it is certainly abuse. And, there needs
to be real consequences for this.
And, by the way, we need to send a message to other people who want to talk about discipline activities. This child will never be the same. He will
need treatment for years in order just to be able to regulate his emotions and feel comfortable in his own body.
His body is a source of danger now because it was intolerable pain, a sorts of intolerable pain at the hands of somebody who was supposed to care about
him over and over again.
Next up, the slender man confessions. You will hear young adolescent girls tell police about how they attempted to murder a friend.
And, later, is Nick Gordon telling police everything he knows about Bobbi Kristina Brown`s bathtub tragedy? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: At just 12, these two girls nearly took another classmate`s life. Last May, they lured her to a wooded area where
police say they stabbed her 19 times. Incredibly, the victim managed to crawl out of the woods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE DETECTIVE: Who stabbed her first?
MORGAN GEYSER, ACCUSED OF STABBING PEYTON LAUTNER: I think Anissa stabbed her first and then I continued. And, then, Anissa said, "Morgan, make sure
she does not escape."
ANISSA WEIER, ACCUSED OF STABBING PEYTON LAUTNER: She told me she got her in the lung. Right here six times and then like in the leg a few times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This is their supply list. Notice the kitchen knife?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE DETECTIVE: So, how did you get the knife from Anissa?
MORGAN: She sort of just shoved it into my hands -- and there it was. And then I did not know what I did. It just sort of happened. It did not feel
like anything. It was like air.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: When investigators asked why they did it, they both had the same answer. Slender man.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Time for our behavior bureau. Loni Coombs, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University and Leeann Tweeden still
with me. Slender man is the fictional internet meme that allegedly inspired two 12-year-old girls in this attempted alleged murder plot.
Police say, Anissa Weier and Morgan Geyser set out to kill their friend after having gained her trust. They are charged with one count of first-
degree intentional homicide in the adult court. Loni, is this the appropriate charge in the appropriate setting?
COOMBS: Well, it is clearly a premeditated crime, and it was attempted murder.
PINSKY: Adult.
COOMBS: As far as adult versus juvenile -- I will tell you, I think when you listen to these interrogation tapes of these two young women, and their
attorneys said, "Let us release them and show the judge that they should be in juvenile court because there is a huge difference --
PINSKY: Juvenile? Or should they be getting a plead for insanity? And, does that being in an adult court give them more leverage in some way?
COOMBS: Well, no. I will tell you, these interrogation tapes show very clearly they knew what they were doing was wrong. They knew that they were
going to get in trouble for it, so there is no "legal insanity" to claim here.
And, there is also a clear difference between these two girls in the interrogation. Morgan is much more cold and callus and saying things like
-- when they said how many times did you stab her?
She goes, "How many times? I do not know. I did not know I was supposed to count." I mean she is very cold and calculated. Whereas Anissa is
crying and remorseful. So, if there is any argument, I would say Anissa may be Juvenile court, but Morgan, I would say should be in adult court.
PINSKY: The evidence currently including the tapes were introduced by the girl`s own attorney as Loni said. And, one of the more disturbing pieces
are images of a blood-stained mutilated Barbie doll.
And, so Judy, for me this is sort of criminally insane stuff. This is, you know, not just schizophrenia. It is schizophrenia plus at least for the
more culpable girl.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right. And, with the more culpable girl, Morgan, I think her name is. You know, it is really rising
to the level of an early psychopath, you know, these types of signs that we see.
PINSKY: Well, now -- wait, wait, Judy, she is schizophrenic and psychopathic, is that what they are going to claim?
HO: I do not really know what they are going to claim, but this lack of remorse is not actually what you see with schizophrenics who even hold
delusions where people are trying to harm them.
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on. But, it is an adolescent who does not have mindfulness, does not understand that her actions have consequences on
people. She is psychotic. She believes slender man is going to come get her. And, then she does not really have remorse in retrospect, but is not
that more sort of adolescent stuff at a kid who is psychotic?
HO: I do not think so, Dr. Drew. When an adolescent is at the age that Morgan is, you know right from wrong. You know you are not supposed to
kill people. You know you are not supposed to stab your friend. This is not the frontal lobe development that we talk about moral development.
This is basic moral development, Dr. Drew. People who are 7 years old have it.
PINSKY: OK. So, Leeann, you agree with Judy. It is not just this part of the brain that we always talk about needing the executive function to be
able to understand other people have minds?
TWEEDEN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Now, this is slightly more cold, more calculating?
TWEEDEN: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. I mean this was evil. This girl -- especially that Morgan girl, the one that was -- is cold and calculating.
She knew exactly -- she was making smart-ass comments, "Well, I did not know I was suppose to count."
She knew. She told her friend. She goes, "Look, we told her we were running to go get help." But, when she goes, "We left. We knew we were
not going to help her out."
I mean, so, it is like, I think they should be trialed as adults. And, Dr. Drew, what is it today with these parents and 12-year-olds? All I got to
say as a new parent myself, your job is to raise these children. Teach them right from wrong.
PINSKY: Hey! -- Whoa! Whoa! Forget raise them. How about identifying a kid who is really in trouble? They lost an opportunity to raise her --
TWEEDEN: Agree.
PINSKY: -- when she was talking to slender man and she wrote him -- drew his picture on a napkin and started talking to him.
TWEEDEN: Right. The dad knew that.
PINSKY: Is not that cute? She is talking to a cartoon. No. It is not cute in a 12-year-old. It is psychotic. Judy, how do we get parents to
understand more clearly that when the kid needs help?
By the way, this kid -- I do not know if this child has a history of torturing animals, but I would not be surprised. And, then active
psychosis at the dinner table. How come parents cannot identify that?
HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. You know what I think this is? I think it is a little bit of a foot in the door syndrome that we talk about, you
know? You grow up with your child. You see them develop.
And, if she did have some of these signs of perhaps torturing a cat when she was younger, maybe other types of cruelty over time, there is ways for
parents to explain that away because nobody wants to believe that there is something seriously wrong with their child.
PINSKY: Yes, but that is -- that is terrible parenting. Leeaan, you agree?
HO: Yes.
TWEEDEN: I do not know, Dr. Drew. I mean some of the research on the parents -- the parents are gothic. If you look at their Instagram feeds,
they are both Goth parents. They are into sculls and very dark things.
They are into -- some of the e-mail addresses connected to the dad or I love evil. They have 666 at the end. So, it kind of -- I am thinking that
in this household, they are dark anyway. So, these guys, they are probably looking at slender man, he does not think it is a problem.
PINSKY: So, they help cultivate it.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: So, they help cultivate the psychotic process.
TWEEDEN: Right.
PINSKY: Anissa actually told police she believed that if she did not kill someone, slender man would kill her family. She also said that it was
Morgan`s idea to be so-called proxies for slender man.
But, Morgan said that Anissa is the one that shoved the knife into her hand. You heard her say that. I guess there is a leader and a follower
here, Judy. Is there -- can we think about this kind of think that way?
HO: Of course. I think that especially in the teenage mind, there is that sort of peer pressure that really builds to a level that we may even not
understand being older now and being a little bit removed from how strong that, that can actually be.
And, as we talked about before on your show, Dr. Drew, sometimes someone who is lonely might not have the best family environment, they tend to be
the follower in this case.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: They have something to do and something where they can really feel like they are a part of something bigger than themselves.
PINSKY: Be careful what you inductionate your children into it.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: You may think it is cute. It is not funny, especially when they start acting --
TWEEDEN: No.
PINSKY: It is not just imagination at a 12 or 13 and 14-year-old when they are actually interacting with these imaginary objects. That is called a
psychosis. That is a hallucinatory experiences.
Next up, what made slender man a clearly fictional character so real for these girls?
And, later, Bobbi Kristina Brown has been in a coma for 24 days. Nick Gordon thinks he can bring her out of it. Oh, it is a miracle. Back after
this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The girls lured their friend into the woods by playing hide and go seek. The two argued over who would stab her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEIER: And Morgan said, "Hey, Anissa, we should be proxies." And, I as like, "OK. How would we do that?" And, she said, "We would have to kill
(INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEYSER: She was my only friend for a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE DETECTIVE: So, why would you hurt your only friend?
GEYSER: It was necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEYSER: It was weird. I felt no remorse. I thought I would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DETECTIVE: Do you understand what it means to kill somebody? When you, from you know?
WEIER: I believe it is ending a life, and I regret it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with our behavior bureau, Loni, Judy and Leeann. We are talking about the so-called slender man stabbings. All right, Loni, what
we see these girls kind of turn on each other, do you think? You do think so?
COOMBS: Yes. Well, Morgan is already trying to sort of blame everything on Anissa. But, I think Anissa is much more believable in what she is
saying.
TWEEDEN: Yes.
COOMBS: And, I think she will come out as sort of the follower of Morgan. I think the Morgan was the ringleader here. I think that she was the one
that really -- you know she is fascinated. They are saying that they are in fear and they are doing this to protect their family. They are not in
fear. They are fascinated by this slender man.
HO: Yes.
COOMBS: And, their imaginations are running away with them. And, they want to be his proxy. They want to do this to prove that he exist and go
live with him. That does not sound like somebody who is really fearful of him.
HO: Right.
COOMBS: It sounds like someone who has a very great imagination.
PINSKY: Well --
COOMBS: And, you know, when you listen to Morgan, I think she, you know, got those psychopathic tendencies. I do not see schizophrenia. I do not
see delusions. I see somebody who is just fascinated and perhaps addicted to this whole slender man idea.
PINSKY: That is an interesting idea. Judy, do you agree?
HO: I do. I really think that the psychopathic part of it is what is presenting here. And, before the break, Dr. Drew, you asked, "what makes
slender man so frightening?" "Why do he people believe in him?" Well, I think that there is enough specificity about the myth around slender man
that makes him terrifying.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. You are not going to blame slender man here?
HO: No. No. But, all I am saying is --
PINSKY: This is what is crazy about the story. People like, "Oh my God! This guy created a character and kids are going nutty all over the place."
HO: No. But, Dr. Drew, there is something about the way -- the myth about slender man really makes this an easy way for kids to actually latch on to
him. And, this is not the first time that this happened.
PINSKY: Well, but what is the myth? There is a guy with no head, no face.
HO: But, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: What is so easy about -- you think somebody created that with the idea that, "Oh my God! These kids are going to develop violent fantasies
around this?"
HO: No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that it is unfortunately a good recipe for this type of sadness to happen. Because
there is also enough about slender man that is not filled in.
PINSKY: Hang on a second.
HO: People then go and fill in those blank spots.
PINSKY: OK, but Loni, is there enough there for an attorney to get a hold of it and make these people culpable in some weird way? Please, no.
COOMBS: Slender man, absolutely not.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: But, you know what is interesting about slender man. It started out with this thing where college kid were making it to have story telling.
But, then they made it into a video game on the internet. It was so popular. The day that it hit, it crashed the website. And kids -- Young
kids started following and again really fascinated and addicted --
PINSKY: Again, where were the parents?
COOMBS: Exactly.
PINSKY: Where are the parents?
COOMBS: Exactly.
PINSKY: These kids are getting into. How about we talk to our kids about it?
COOMBS: Yes.
TWEEDEN: Yes.
PINSKY: I want to show you, a detective questioning Morgan about what she thinks is going to happen to her as a result of her slender man
relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE DETECTIVE: What do you think should happen to somebody that stabs somebody else?
GEYSER: I expected like I would either get put into some sort of weird place or I expected I would either get put into prison or an insane asylum.
I did not know which to expect. I do not think I am insane though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. The psychiatrist said Morgan is schizophrenic. Leeann, She thinks she has Vulcan mind control. She can talk to Harry Potter
characters. But is that just some sort of manipulation?
TWEEDEN: She seems like a manipulator.
PINSKY: There is -- both these girls are bit of that. Parents say they were surprised. Of course, they were saddened. But, Leeann, what do you
say?
TWEEDEN: Come on. The parents -- I mean if she had schizophrenia, and Dr. Drew, you talk about this on your show a lot. I think you would know. I
think you are parent -- you would know --
PINSKY: No. No. She is talking to napkins and pictures.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Yes. That is schizophrenia. That is a real schizophrenia. It is not normal for kids to do that.
TWEEDEN: I think the parents should be held responsible at some point too. But, I mean this girl -- this Morgan girl is saying, yeah-- who talks like
that at 12? "You know, I might go to an insane asylum. I do not think I am insane." Nobody talks like that at 12 years old. I mean --
PINSKY: You are right. I mean that is --
TWEEDEN: That is scary. The other girl is remorseful. When Anissa is talking, she is actually saying, "I regret it."
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: "I did not mean it."
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Yes.
TWEEDEN: "I got pulled into this."
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Yes.
TWEEDEN: I mean at least she is regretful. The other girl is just like, "I thought I would feel remorse but I did not."
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: Or "I thought I would feel bad, but I did not." That to me is scary.
PINSKY: I want to show people this tape before where she was singing during the interrogation for six hours. Now, my producer thought of Jodi
Arias the way she used to sit and sort of rock and self-soothe. But, Judy, the singing for hours on end can be -- you know, it is like "The Shining."
You know, where the ghost repeating the same thing over and over. There is a psychotic quality to that. Let me play you the tape.
HO: Right. Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEYSER: SINGING.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I did not know that the juxtaposition was going to come up in that tape. We all laughed out loud when we saw that.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Strangely, I met a girl over the weekend who knew Jodi Arias when she is in first grade, and it was chilling to hear those stories too. I
want to show you, guys, tonight`s poll. 76 percent say this case should stay in the adult court. 24 percent say move to juvenile court.
I think I would agree. I think that this is something that in order to be properly meted out, they got adult standards being measured, because these
girls particularly the one that has such cold tendencies, this could end up being somebody who -- well, if what we were speculating is true, it will be
somebody who will strike again in some sort of horrible cold hearted way.
And, we all need to be protected from her and she from herself. The other one is a little less clear what is going on, but for God sake, if she has
schizophrenia, let us get that treated. If she was so delusional that she did not know what she was doing, but the evidence is building that perhaps
it was not that bad. \
And she, too is somebody that can be persuaded to do bad things much like - - if you remember Charlie Manson`s little posse. Those were not the ring leaders but those were people who were because of their proclivities prone
to and be able to manipulated into doing horrible, horrible things. And, those consequences have to be brought to bear.
Next up, Nick Gordon slams Bobby Brown on Twitter over the battle for Bobbi Kristina. Please like us on Facebook. You will find out After Show, show
clips, behind the scene pictures, all there. We will be there today with the after show as well. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Bobbi Kristina remains on life support while those closest to her are taking their family feud public. Her boyfriend,
Nick Gordon, issued this statement. "All Mr. Gordon wants is permission to see Bobbi Kristina."
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
NICK GORDON, BOBBI KRISTINA`S BOYFRIEND: "If she hears my voice, let her message me. Play her favorite music. I believe it will help. If you ask
Bobby anything about it, he cannot answer."
(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Bobby Brown responds with a public statement of his own. "Obviously, Mr. Gordon is not as desperate to visit Bobbi
Kristina as he wants the world to believe. At least not desperate enough to inform Bobby Brown in writing what happen to Bobby Kristina."
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
GORDON: "CPR for ten to 15 minutes. Responding officer did not take over until EMS came. It is like reliving my worst nightmare. My only regret is
not getting to Bobbi Kristina faster to give CPR."
(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Bobby Brown says Nick is the stubborn one. "Mr. Gordon was offered an opportunity to potentially visit Bobbi Kristina
and he declined to meet the terms of any possible visit."
GORDON: "Bobby has seen his daughter four times in the last five years. Now him and his family want Whitney`s money, which belongs to Krissy or
Cissy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: While Bobbi Kristina lies unconscious, neither her father nor her boyfriend will budge.
"Due to Mr. Gordon`s failure to place in tangible form his understanding of the events that lead to the hospitalization of Bobbi Kristina, there is no
reason for any additional discussion with him."
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
GORDON: "I cannot wait until she wakes up and dismiss all the negative thoughts. There is a reason why her mom made me promise to look after
her."
(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
PINSKY: Vanessa still with me. Now, Sam Schacher from "Pop Trigger" on Hulu! and Segun Oduolowu, Entertainment Journalist/Host Of Wired In With
Segun Podcast. They join me. You are tweeting about the most tonight, "The future of Bobbi Kristina Brown." She is on ventilator support for 24
days. Segun, do you make anything of the boyfriend`s tweets?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: I honestly do not, Dr. Drew. And, for first time I find myself in the camp with Bobby Brown, which is a
scary place to be. But I have seen jackals on the Serengeti not fight over a carcass the way these two are going at it.
It seems that all Bobby Brown is asking for is Mr. Gordon to tell him what happened to his daughter. I mean if you really love her, do that. Give
the father something, and he has not done that.
PINSKY: Yes. Although, he is giving hints, he is saying that he is administering CPR for many minutes and then he was waiting for emergency
services to arrive in minutes. That is some information. I would imagine that writing it all down might create some liability for him. Maybe he is
afraid Vanessa to put it all in writing.
BARNETT: He should not be afraid of anything if he did not do anything wrong. What we have here is a man who has been accused of something and
should go in there and clear the record, clear his name and say what happened to his supposed wife.
Reluctant do that, it brings up questions. And, if he is the one who was responsible for this unfortunate situation, then no, he should not be
allowed in the hospital room at all.
PINSKY: And, so, Samantha, I think what people are alleging is that there may have been something administered to her or maybe that somebody knew
something about something.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF POP TRIGGER: Right.
PINSKY: I mean when people end up face down in the bathtub, there is only a very, very ways that can happen. And, I will tell you what, Sam. They
do not shoot heroin in the bathtub typically. They are not taking a stimulant and go on unconscious. They are taking -- we do not know any of
these things, of course.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: This is all me just thinking as a physician what the possibilities are. But, I will tell you what makes people go to sleep in the bathtub,
and that is pills. So, it makes me wonder if they find prescription pills around, maybe the boyfriend knew something about that. They are going to
blame him for that. I do not know. What do you think, Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes -- No. I do. Well, they are treating this as a criminal investigation, Dr. Drew. The police department --
PINSKY: Yes. But, what is weird though -- what weird is that they find prescription pills, and they go, "You do not have drugs around." But, the
prescription pills are what kill people.
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: I do not understand that.
SCHACHER: There is a stigma with prescription pills. It is crazy. But, here is the thing. I get it that Bobby Brown is trying to protect his
daughter, but I also think that Bobby Brown and Nick Gordon need to put their differences aside because they need to think about Bobbi Kristina.
And, she loves Nick Gordon. OK? There is no question about that. So, Dr. Drew, you would know, when someone is --
BARNETT: No.
SCHACHER: Hold on. When someone is in a coma, Dr. Drew, is not one of their last senses hearing? Should not she want to hear the people around
her that she loves?
PINSKY: Yes, Sam. There are comas and then there are comas, all right, everybody? Nick seems to believe that his voice as Sam suggesting maybe
music or massage will wake Bobbi Kristina up.
And, our viewers want him to give it a shot, but I am going to tell you something. That 24 days on a ventilator with such bad brain swelling and
intractable seizuring that you cannot come off a medical-induced coma, this is not something that is going to hear anything.
Even just the medications they are putting her on to control seizures will make it impossible for her to hear anything. This is this idea, Segun, of
her fighting and she is a fighter and she is getting better. I am sorry, but that is absolute nonsense.
ODUOLOWY: Dr. Drew, even you have to allow for the possibility of medical -- say it with me -- miracles.
PINSKY: Well, why do not we just take her off the ventilator and pray to God that the miracle will occur then? Why listen to doctors at all, Segun?
Why not just, "Stop the machine, everybody. We got a miracle coming here." Why not?
ODUOLOWU: Because, Dr. Drew, I have heard doctors from way back when used to say that leaching and blood letting used to cure. So, there are medical
science expand and grow. So, let us not just, you know, cut the ventilator off and say she is not going to get better.
PINSKY: I did not say that. I said, it is going to be a miracle she is going to get better, because miracles happen, so therefore she will get
better. My question is, where are we going to stop with this? And, when are we going to give her a chance to sort of do it on her own and then come
what may if it does not work out? I understand, Segun, people want to hope for the best. But, this is really a desperate situation.
BARNETT: But, do you know that for sure? I mean --
PINSKY: I do not have the --
BARNETT: Exactly.
PINSKY: I have not seen her medical records.
BARNETT: And, so what if there is a reason why she is still on after 24 days. What if the doctors are telling them some reason why you can keep
her --
PINSKY: You know what? Vanessa, I am going to tell you what. If you remember last week, we consulted with a neurologist. We reviewed exactly
what we knew about this case. And, the probability of Bobbi Kristina Brown returning to being herself, to being Bobbi Kristina, forget even getting a
better singer, just being an aware person that we would know as Bobbi Kristina, the probability of that according to the neurologist, zero
percent. Zero percent.
Good probability she will survive in a chronic vegetative state. Then, Segun, my question to you is, if you were in this state, would you want to
risk that? Do you want to be in that -- almost 100 percent probability you will be in a chronic vegetative state, let us go ahead with things?
ODUOLOWU: Well, Dr. Drew, as you know, for me the fear of not being able to hear my voice would be a fate worse than death. So, being in a
vegetative state would really -- would bother me and those that love me. But, honestly, if it --
PINSKY: The ones that love you might be appreciative. I am just saying.
ODUOLOWU: I just want you to try. All I am asking for is the ability to try.
PINSKY: But, how long? Vanessa, how long? 24 days? 50 days? 85 days? 300 days?
BARNETT: I do not think you will be giving a limit.
PINSKY: At what point do you pull back?
BARNETT: Look, I told you last week, it takes me more than 24 days to find a dress. So, no, we are talking life or death, 24 days is a molecule of
her life.
PINSKY: But, it is a molecule --
BARNETT: So, if it takes longer than that, then it takes longer than that for them to go through this process. They are not hurting anyone.
PINSKY: No. It is not --
SCHACHER: We do hear of cases, though, Dr. Drew. We do. In fact, our makeup artist today was just telling us about a case of a friend of hers
that was in a coma for a long time. They were in a vegetative state and then guess what? They recovered fully.
PINSKY: But, Samantha, I guarantee -- I guarantee you -- get me the makeup artist. I guarantee you -- No. No. Because, I guarantee you that was
somebody not on a ventilator, outside of an ICU without such intractable seizuring and brain swelling. Those are terrible signs, all three of
those. That is very -- as I said, there are comas and then there are comas.
There is like -- there are devastating events and there are fatal events. That is just the way the brain is. I am going to keep the conversation
going. Please check out our HLN app. You can download the version that best suits you and your device. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Overwhelmingly likely to be really bad if there is survival.
BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Take me back to the point where you said that doctors can be making these decisions. I think to the very end,
the families still have to make the decisions.
PINSKY: But, the family makes terrible decisions, it is the job to bring the family to where they need to be on behalf of the patient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, believe me, believe me, the hospital is trying to make that happen. Vanessa, Sam, Segun join me. In his tweets, Nick Gordon claims
Bobby Brown has only seen his daughter four times in five years.
So, the question is -- I am going to show you a tweet that recapitulates this. The question we are asking myself is, is Bobby Brown is own guilt
affecting his decision making, his motivation to keep her alive? Look at this tweet from Danine Manette. "Look, Bobby Brown has too much guilt over
his absence and poor parental example to even consider throwing in the towel right now." Samantha, guilt? Do you think that is motivating poor
decision here?
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew. How sad if guilt is. But, I have to agree with Danine Manette. I mean if that is true what Nick Gordon
tweeted, that he has only seen Bobbi Kristina four times in the matter of five years, you can imagine that now he is like, "Oh, my God. And, now she
is on her death bed." He is trying to make up for lost time.
PINSKY: He is trying, Vanessa, not to fill his own guilt. If I had been there as dad more, maybe this would not have happened.
BARNETT: Yes, there is guild, but this stems -- this whole situation is -- goes back before Bobbi Kristina was even here. There were constant issues
with Bobby Brown when he was married to Whitney and Whitney`s mother and the family did not approve of him.
He talks openly about his own drug issues. And, they thought he was a poor example for Whitney to be with and let alone be the father of Bobbi
Kristina. And, now you have him treating Nick Gordon the same way.
PINSKY: Well, this is dysfunctional rolling downhill?
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: The family first was ostracizing Bobby Brown claiming -- she was ostracizing -- yes, ostracizing Bobby Brown saying that he had made Whitney
a drug addict, which it does not happen like that, guys. It does not happen like that. And, now Bobby is ostracizing Nick -- we do not know why
really. And, Nick is saying it is because of money. But, we do not know why. Do we, Vanessa?
BARNETT: I think we do know why. I think the investigation showed that there were marks on Bobbi Kristina`s body, and he wants answers as any
father whether he has been there every day or for four days over the past five years. As a father, you want answers. And, I do not think Nick is
giving him those answers.
PINSKY: Segun, what do you think?
ODUOLOWU: I just find it hard to accept the answers from Mr. Gordon when he will not tell the father what actually happened on the night this young
lady slipped into a coma. I do not believe Mr. Gordon. And, if Bobby Brown is suffering from any guilt, so be it. But, that does not mean you
throw in the towel on your baby girl.
SCHACHER: Right.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
ODUOLOWU: I understand that doctors are backed with science and evidence. But, you are going to tell a father that, "You know what, pull the plug on
your daughter." I just find that with more time, let them come to that realization naturally.
If it is bleeding their resources, which it does not seem to be, and the hospital does not seem to be forcing them to make that decision, then why
not sit back and wait and hope for the miracle?
PINSKY: There is a tweet there that said it could be a one in a million possibility that a miracle -- I know Segun you love miracles. You are
praying for it.
ODUOLOWU: Who does not?
BARNETT: I love a good miracle.
PINSKY: Who does not? But, this is not a miracle situation. The probability is zero. Not one in a million, zero.
BARNETT: That is exactly what a miracle is.
PINSKY: Not .00001 percent. Zero percent that she will come back in a meaningful way. Now, if you want to take the risk of a miracle that she
will come back in some fashion, that she will have some ability to communicate with people she cares about, that she may not see, she may not
hear, she may not be able to communicate verbally, and that is OK with you, well that miracle could occur, Sam. If you were in that position, do you
want me to take that risk of subjecting you to a life in that kind of a situation?
SCAHCHER: Yes. I could not live like that, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Me neither.
SCHACHER: Not because I do not want to hear my voice like Segun. For other reasons. But, no, I think it is -- I just feel for the family, Dr.
Drew. And, I agree with you. I would want you to pull me aside and say, Sam, you have to pull the plug on this family member.
PINSKY: But, Sam, we should not talk about pulling the plug.
SCHACHER: It is so difficult.
PINSKY: It is not pulling the plug so much.
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: She is not brain dead. She is not brain dead.
SCHACHER: OK.
PINSKY: It is creating a philosophy of care that is realistic, Segun. It is not waiting for that miracle. It is saying, "Hey, we have an assessment
here." People who know these kinds of injuries to the brain -- it is an injury. If she cut off her arm, do you pray for arm to come back?
ODUOLOWU: No.
PINSKY: She has injured her brain where the cells are dead. Now, we can maybe bring some of them back in such a way that there will be some kind of
living something there. Why do not we adjust what we do to really take into account that reality that she will not be singing, she will not be
herself? She will be in some kind of vegetative something --
ODUOLOWU: Some hope is better than none. I understand that she may never come back to be fully what she was. But, what she will not be if they take
her off the ventilator is anything at all.
PINSKY: But, then are not we, Segun, letting the family and their guilt and their unwillingness or lack of desire to do the grieving. It is their
grief they are avoiding. They are not making good decisions on behalf of this child. If they were, Vanessa, cannot you at least cut me little slack
here, that they might create at least a different philosophy of care here?
BARNETT: Look, I trust what you say. But, I know you are not the only doctor who believes this. And, I know that if this is the broad range of
topics, then that would be what they are telling the family.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Maybe this is not what they are telling the family. Maybe they are telling them, "OK, we have not tried every single thing yet." Or maybe
they -- we do not know if they want her in a vegetative state -- they may not ever want her in a vegetative state, but maybe they are not ready to
make that decision today.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: It could be a week from now.
PINSKY: I will grant you that and maybe we have the information wrong. We are not there. We do not have for sure the information. But, I am very
concerned what is going on here is not good decision making on behalf of the patient.
It is more on behalf of the guilt and grief of the family. And, that is never good for patients. DVR us then you can watch us any time. Thank
you, panel. "Forensic Files" up next begins now.
END
