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Nancy Grace
PTSD or Boss Hog?
Aired February 24, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Texas suburbs, the trial of a man who guns down national hero American sniper.
Bombshell tonight, a secretly recorded jailhouse conversation reveals the killer steals his defense from the "Boss Hog" reality show?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The moment Routh killed American sniper Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Did they know you were going to shoot? They didn`t know? Why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shot so fast, knocked down so quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Because their training wasn`t as good. My training has been better, you know?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Libber (ph), Maine. Did a grown man, a father of one, pose as a teen boy on Facebook to lure a teen girl her death?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-year-old Kyle Dubie (ph) of Orono kidnapped Nicole Cable (ph) killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why he would do such a thing to such an innocent little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know hat he was thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He, quote, "intended to kidnap Nicole and hide her," that he would later find her and be the hero.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t want to talk to him. It sickens me to know him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Branson (ph). A 6-year-old little Missouri girl goes missing from the complex where she lives with her family. Tonight,
her body has just been found strangled, stuffed under the bed of a next- door neighbor. Insult to injury, the guy was just let out of jail on a technical snafu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jasson Miller (ph) disappeared at some point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roberts (ph) used snacks to lure the girl. They later found her under the bed in the motel room rented out by Roberts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The news of the young girl being killed in the Ozarks...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did it happen?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Delaware, a 3-year-old little girl, Eleanor (ph), seemingly disappears into thin air. Tonight, where is little Eleanor?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Texas suburbs, the trial of a man who guns down national hero American sniper. A secretly recorded jailhouse
conversation reveals the killer steals his defense from the "Boss Hog" reality show?
Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent standing by at the courthouse. Are you serious? Explain to me what happened.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this was interesting. It was a telephone recording that was made. Eddie Routh was calling somebody
outside of the jail. Of course, those conversations are recorded. I don`t know if he knew that.
But in the conversation, he starts telling the person at the other end of the line all about this reality program called "Boss Hog." I don`t know
anything about it myself personally, but what you begin to understand is here`s the prosecution saying, Hey, that whole pig man thing, this crazy
defense he`s been putting out there saying pig people are going to take over the world -- this is where he got it from. This was the spark of the
whole defense.
GRACE: Well, I mean, you know, Marty...
SAVIDGE: It was an interesting moment in the courtroom.
GRACE: ... the thing is this. Even if you haven`t seen the "Boss Hog" reality show, which I think is on the Discovery channel, "Boss Hog" is
in pop culture. Everybody knows who "Boss Hog" is.
And FYI, news flash, your phone calls from inside the jail are recorded, like your visits are recorded. So everything he`s saying on
these phone calls is fair game. So the state gets this phone call where he`s telling his mother about the "Boss Hog" reality show. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to run down some terminology that the pig uses. Shaw (ph) chain (ph). By the way, it`s all about making money.
Let`s face it I take the nastiest thing on the earth other than a rat and make money on it. This brain is a finely tuned craniologically advanced
machine. And when I hear the possibility of money making or something that could turn into me making some money, Rog (ph), there you have cha-ching.
And let`s move on down to pshaw (ph). This is a conversation capper. In other words, I get the last word of conversation, and it`s a pshaw (ph).
I`m always going to get the last word, and if you get two of them, you got, Pshaw-pshaw (ph), real quick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, that was for you, Martin Savidge. That is video of the "Boss Hog" reality show from Discovery since you told me you haven`t seen
it. Well, apparently, that`s what he`s been watching behind bars.
And I want to point something out, Martin. Before he gunned down the American sniper Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield, he had never
talked about these mutant pig people taking over the earth or threatening him. The only time that has ever arisen is by his own word of it, that he
said he had talked about it before.
So exactly what did we learn that he said to his mother on this recorded phone conversation, Martin?
SAVIDGE: Well, he`s just -- I`ll tell you one of the things that strikes you about this conversation is how normal he sounds. And by the
way, it wasn`t the only phone conversation they recorded of him. There was another one that they played of him talking to a reporter. And in that
one, he says quite frankly about the murders, I don`t know why I killed them. I just did it.
What strikes you is none of this talk about pig men assassins, none of this talk about the delusions of voodoo and the end of the world. He just
says, I don`t know why I did it. I just did it. So you`re right, Nancy. We don`t hear all of this grand talk of how out of his mind he was. In
these candid conversations, he sounds extremely lucid and very much aware of what he did.
GRACE: You know, Martin, right now, we`re showing the viewers the chase, and the whole point of the insanity defense is at the time of the
incident, you didn`t know right from wrong. So if he didn`t know what he did was wrong, why is he running from police? Why has he been at his
sister`s house talking about a getaway to Oklahoma? Why? Now a veteran is dead, along with Chad Littlefield.
Unleash the lawyers, Patrick McDonough and Deborah Blum joining us. First out to you, Deborah. He`s caught on the phone basically describing
his "Boss Hog" defense. His defense is telling this jury that he thought the American sniper Chris Kyle and friend Chad Littlefield were mutant pig
people that were going to kill him. He stole it from Boss Hog, Deborah!
DEBORAH BLUM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, that just goes to show that he doesn`t have the mental culpability here. He doesn`t understand
right from wrong. He doesn`t know what he`s saying.
GRACE: What are you saying? He talked completely coherently. I don`t -- I don`t understand what you`re saying? What do you mean, it shows
he doesn`t have any culpability? He had the wherewithal to watch this video -- he`s apparently got cable TV behind bars -- and put together,
cobbled together a defense that he committed double murder because of what he just saw on a "Boss Hog" reality show, or was it the "Seinfeld" episode
he also watched behind bars?
Let`s take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, God. It`s a pig man, a pig man!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I just saw a pig man, a pig man! You know, he was sleeping, and then he woke up and he looked at me. And he made this
horrible sound, this...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the hell are you talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m talking about a pig man! I walked into the wrong room, and there he was!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pig man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pig man, half pig, half man!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look. Look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hospital receives grant to conduct DNA research. Government funds genetic research at area hospital. Yes, so?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pig man, baby, pig man!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I have to hear about this pig man one more time...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I`m telling you the pig man is alive. The government has been experimenting with pig men since the `50s!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, will you stop? Just because the hospital conducting DNA research doesn`t mean they`re creating a race of mutant pig
men!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jerry, will you wake up to reality? It`s a military thing! They`re probably creating a whole army of pig (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video you`re seeing is from YouTube of NBC`s "Seinfeld."
Unleash the lawyers, Patrick McDonough, Deborah Blum. I mean, Patrick, we know that he was watching this and "Boss Hog" behind bars, and
suddenly, for the first time after he watches this, his defense becomes he thought the American sniper Chris Kyle and Littlefield were mutant pig
people, so he gunned them down in cold blood?
PATRICK MCDONOUGH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, let`s be clear about his defense here, OK, Nancy. This is a person who fought -- who has been a
veteran for our country, that was...
GRACE: Oh, yes, you corrected yourself right there, didn`t you, because he never saw action! Let`s just put that out there.
MCDONOUGH: He still is a Marine...
GRACE: True.
MCDONOUGH: ... that served our country. This is a person that has a history of mental illness, that has been diagnosed with post-traumatic
stress disorder, that has had medical -- has been in and out of mental institutions. This isn`t something that he just popped up with. So we
have a foundation for the mental defense.
GRACE: Hey...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Please look at the screen right now. That`s his problem right there.
Martin Savidge, do you remember -- there he is with a big bong. Now, this picture was showed to the jury by the defense. And on rebuttal, on
cross-examination, the state showed the bong picture to the jury.
Martin Savidge, that had to have a powerful impact on the jury to -- it would make me feel a little hoodwinked if I were on the jury and I saw
him in his Marine outfit, which is very moving to think that he fought for our country -- but he didn`t -- and then to show the next picture of him
getting high with this monster bong? Who`s that beside him? Who`s the woman beside him?
SAVIDGE: I can`t see the photograph right now, so I can`t tell you exactly right now.
GRACE: Girlfriend. Girlfriend.
SAVIDGE: But to your point, then when this was shown in the courtroom, it is striking because exactly as you put it is exactly how the
prosecution put it. They said, Look, this isn`t a man who suffers from PTSD. This is not a man who is suffering from a mental psychosis. This is
a man who is suffering from a self-inflicted wound, that wound being drugs and alcohol, and that`s what made him paranoid and carry out the killings
he did.
GRACE: You`re seeing the movie "American Sniper" right now from Warner Bros.
The case is in its final throes right now. What is in the balance, hanging in the balance, is justice for the lives of two men, friends that
together were working to help disabled veterans physically and mentally disabled veterans after they saw action. I`m talking about the real
American sniper, Chris Kyle, and his friend, Chad Littlefield. They were both gunned down in cold blood.
Marty Savidge, another thing really struck me today and nearly brought me to tears, and that is when we were hearing the strategy that is
necessary for someone to bring down the American sniper by gunshot while the American sniper, Chris Kyle, was armed. He had his own gun in his
waistbelt. He was at a shooting range, for Pete`s sake.
And in my layperson`s understanding, this is what I thought I heard them say, that Eddie Ray Routh, the shooter, had to pick a moment where he
had both men in his sights. He could shoot at both of them from behind, that he had to wait for both of them to spend out both their -- all their
shells, their practice guns, and before they drew their own guns out of their waistband and hit at that exact moment in order to kill both of them,
Martin.
SAVIDGE: That`s exactly what the prosecution stated with their expert testimony they had today. He said that he waited until that moment that
the guns they`d been firing down range were empty, and then Eddie Routh opens fire with his own guns to a devastating effect, knocking down both
Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield literally where they stood -- so fast, so furious, he says that Chris Kyle never knew what hit him. And that, they
say, points to this cold, calculating killer, not this wild, delusional kind of man.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Squirming around the inside of a police car. "I don`t know if I`m insane or sane." Rambling incoherently as he was
interrogated by murder investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "You can`t just keep letting people eat your soul up for free, you know?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution`s medical expert says these moments are examples of a man desperate for attention...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I told her I had to kill men today."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... not evidence of a insane killer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at a Texas courthouse. Joining me, Martin Savidge. Martin, not only did that secretly recorded phone call come into
evidence, where the jury hears him talking to his mother about this "Boss Hog" reality TV show that he had been watching, then suddenly, he comes up
with this pig person defense -- but they also heard late in the day that Eddie Ray Routh actually lied to his own shrink. The state had the defense
shrink on the stand during the defense sur-rebuttal. It`s like a tennis match, everybody. You rest your cases, then the state does a rebuttal
case. The defense does a sur-rebuttal case. It can go on forever.
Well, during that, the defense psych admits Eddie Ray Routh lied about smoking weed. What happened, Martin?
SAVIDGE: Yes, well, you`re right, it`s a tennis match back and forth. But this is the eleventh hour of that tennis match, and to suddenly hear
this revelation in court that Eddie Routh lied to his own defense expert has go to open the eyes of jury here. This really must make them go, Wait
a minute here. Who is the real Eddie Routh? Is this a man that sounds crazy or is he crazy like a fox?
GRACE: Well, it kind of reminds me in a way, Martin, of Jodi Arias because all her defense psychiatrists and shrinks had to rely on is what
she told them. And then when you find out that your own client is lying to you -- unleash the lawyers, McDonough and Blum.
All right, Deborah Blum, here we`re finding out, as Martin Savidge just correctly noted, at the 11th hour -- it`s time for closing arguments.
And the state has the shrink up on the stand and says, Hey, you know what? I`ve been looking through all these records. Is it true he lied to you?
This is a major linchpin in the prosecution and the defense. Had he been smoking wet weed that morning? Which is marijuana soaked in embalming
fluid, formaldehyde. So he lied to his own shrink about that!
BLUM: Well, that`s all part of his psychosis. This is clearly...
GRACE: Lying?
BLUM: ... somebody who is not well. Yes. We`re not psychologists, Nancy. You and I -- you`re a former prosecutor. I`m a defense attorney.
We don`t know the psychology behind this.
GRACE: I know the psychology behind lying. The question is, why are you lying, Patrick? Why did he lie because he thought...
(CROSSTALK)
MCDONOUGH: Look, this is not like the Arias case.
GRACE: What?
MCDONOUGH: This is a man that -- this is a man who has a history of mental illness. He`s been in and out of the hospital. They said he has
already been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. On top of that, it just makes no logical sense. You have a man who goes to these
other two Marines that are supposed to help him, and then he just snaps? He just decided...
GRACE: Put him up, please!
MCDONOUGH: ... he was going to be a cold-blooded...
GRACE: Put him up!
MCDONOUGH: ... murderer that day? It`s completely illogical. This is a classic case where someone should be found not guilty by reason of
insanity. Does it mean they get to walk out the door? No. It means they go into a mental institution and get treated for the mental health issues
that they have.
(CROSSTALK)
MCDONOUGH: ... an American tragedy.
GRACE: Let`s follow that through. You get treated for the mental illness that you have, and then when you are stabilized, what happens,
Patrick McDonough? Let`s tell the viewers what happens.
MCDONOUGH: In the United States, in reality, what happens is most of these people stay longer than if they get a life sentence...
GRACE: Can you please answer...
(CROSSTALK)
MCDONOUGH: Since Reagan was shot, anybody who`s found not guilty by reason...
GRACE: OK, you know what?
MCDONOUGH: ... of insanity typically stays longer than a life sentence.
GRACE: I`ll answer that since you won`t. The answer, the truthful answer to that is...
MCDONOUGH: That is the truthful answer.
GRACE: ... once the person is stabilized, they walk free. They don`t to jail. They walk free in the jurisdiction of Texas.
Now, let`s talk about -- put him up, please. Please put McDonough and Blum back up. Patrick McDonough, you said he`s clearly suffering from
post-traumatic stress syndrome. From what? He`s traumatized from what?
MCDONOUGH: There were a number of things in his history both serving as a Marine and also some of his other duties...
GRACE: Tell me what.
MCDONOUGH: I`m not sure the details. What I know is...
GRACE: He never saw action.
MCDONOUGH: ... that when he came back that he -- that doesn`t matter. He saw things that caused him...
GRACE: Hold on!
MCDONOUGH: ... mental illness, and he was already diagnosed. It`s not like they`re making this up...
GRACE: Hold on.
MCDONOUGH: ... after the fact. He`s been to doctors and he already had this diagnosis.
GRACE: Let`s go to a shrink. Cheryl Arutt is with us, forensic psychologist. Cheryl, have you noticed -- can I please see Cheryl joining
me out of LA?
Cheryl, have you noticed that every time he gets in a jam -- like when he had a DUI, he went, I got PTSD, when he threatened to kill his family at
a fish fry, his parents go tell the cops, Oh, yes, you know what? He got PTSD. When he threatened to kill his girlfriend, he goes, yes, I`m -- I
have PTSD. And then in this case -- and I`m going to go to Dr. Harry Croft after this, who is a specialist in PTSD -- he said, you know...
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: As am I.
GRACE: I`ve been feeling schizophrenic all day. It`s just like I would say, You know, I`ve had a headache all day. He said, I`ve been
schizophrenic all day. It`s BS!
ARUTT: Nancy, I have been an expert in PTSD for over 20 years. I know PTSD. PTSD does get worse under stress. It gets worse when people
are having a difficult time. This is somebody who did serve his country on a ship in a recovery mission removing bodies in Haiti and serving as...
GRACE: That is not true!
ARUTT: ... prison guard in Iraq.
GRACE: Wait! Wa-wait! No, no! That is not what happened!
ARUTT: According...
GRACE: He never saw...
ARUTT: Hold on a second.
GRACE: ... action!
ARUTT: Here`s the thing. The VA hospital diagnosed this man with PTSD prior to any of these things happening. If they do that, they`re very
stringent about how they come to a PTSD diagnosis. There`s also a history of this man having other serious mental health issues. And I think the two
pictures of him are before and after his deterioration from his trauma, frankly.
GRACE: To Dr. Harry Croft, who has treated over 7,000 cases of PTSD, former Army psychiatrist, PTSD expert and author of "I Always Sit With My
Back to the Wall." Dr. Croft, I`m not saying he does not have mental illness. But I am saying he didn`t get it from the military. And this is
a disservice to vets that did get it. And a series of criminal behavior does not rise to PTSD.
DR. HARRY CROFT, FMR. ARMY PSYCHIATRIST, PTSD EXPERT: No, you`re exactly right. Whether he did or didn`t, I`m not sure. I doubt. But what
caused all this problem was not PTSD. It was psychosis, if that was there, and it was certainly drug abuse, the wet weed which acts like PCP. Many of
us have heard of that, and it causes really psychotic behavior, agitated, angry, difficult to control behavior. That I think was what caused his
behavior and not PTSD.
And Nancy, I`ve made my life`s work in the last few years to educate businesses who we want to hire appropriate veterans but who are afraid of
PTSD. And what I`ve tried to do is give correct information to reduce the stigma. And headlines like occurred in this case at the beginning just
worsen that stigma. And all those vets who really suffer from PTSD and deserve to be hired often don`t get hired because of the misconceptions and
stigma.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say Routh ignored orders from his doctors to stop smoking weed and drinking alcohol and smoked and drank
whiskey with his uncle hours before he would kill the man known as the American Sniper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) girlfriend says his temper was very short and that his behavior was very erratic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What`s amazing to me, Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com, is that everyone can go on and on and on about how this guy
is insane, when we all know he smoked weed soaked in embalming fluid that morning, the morning of the two murders, Candace. What, am I -- is
everybody blind and deaf?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM, (via telephone): With his uncle. I mean, he did. He did, Nancy. And I think what your other guests are not
emphasizing enough is that in spite of whatever mental issues he had, this guy knew right from wrong. And there are things that we have reported that
tell us that he knew right from wrong. Things like when he said in jail, overheard in jail, I shot them because they wouldn`t talk to me. And you
know Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield were a little nervous having him in the car. They had texted each other saying they were nervous about it.
This guy had delusions of grandeur. Then when he was with his brother-in- law and sister-in-law, he told them he traded his soul for that truck. So if he knew he had traded his soul for that truck, he knew he did something
really bad.
GRACE: And there you see Texas law enforcement risking their own lives slamming into Eddie Ray Routh`s stolen car. That`s Chris Kyle`s,
American sniper`s vehicle, stolen to try to stop him. Matt Zarrell, that`s the tip of the iceberg. Candace Trunzo is right. But there is so much
more to show his calculation in these two cold-blooded murders. Explain the strategy used to kill the American sniper and Littlefield.
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, so first he`s in the car. They are driving to the gun range and he thinks about killing Kyle and Littlefield at that
moment, but decides not to because he`s worried about them getting in a crash. So they continue to the range. Then he makes sure he is behind
both of them so he can see both of them and shoot both at the same time. He makes sure their guns have all been released at the targets, he made
sure that their guns are still holstered. He makes sure that they never saw it coming.
GRACE: Dr. Harry Croft, what is so hurtful on top of these two murders. My father is a veteran. To know that now veterans are going to
be stigmatized. The ones that do come home from action with posttraumatic stress syndrome and other issues from what they have seen and lived
through. And he`s doing that to American veterans.
CROFT: Sure. He`s robbing them of the truth of the disorder that affects them. And this guy was cunning. That`s what we`re hearing in the
testimony. And he may have been cunning enough to connive the VA psychiatrist who evaluated him for PTSD. And by the way, he gets $2,900 a
month, I understand, for his disability.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, Branson, a six-year-old Missouri girl goes missing from the complex where she lives with her family. Tonight we learn her tiny
body has just been found. She was strangled and her body stuffed under the bed of a next door neighbor. Insult to injury, this guy was just let of
jail on a technical snafu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six-year-old Jasmine Miller was reported missing around 6:20.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are called to the Windsor hotel at 6:20 that night. According to documents, Roberts used snacks to lure the girl.
They later found her under the bed in the motel room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: News of a young girl being killed in the Ozarks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are our future. So if we can`t protect them now, we got a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist and medical examiner. Also with me, Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas
Kids Foundation and Lynn Roberts, reporter from KTTS. Lynn, first to you, what`s so stunning to me is this guy who is now we believe going to be
charged in this, just got out of jail on a burglary. He was let out on a bond because the burglary victim`s fax didn`t get through. She was begging
this guy not be released. How did he lure allegedly a six-year-old little girl with snacks?
ROBERTS: Well, it is right. He has actually been charged and is in custody right now with her death. He`s been charged with first-degree
murder. As far as how he lured the girl with snacks, nobody really knows. The probable cause statement in this case is really brief. So there`s not
many details in the case. But as you said, he was released from jail on bond ten days before her death. He was charged with second degree burglary
and his brother was actually the one who posted the bail. It was massively reduced bond amount. Usually these cases of first degree or second degree
burglary carry a $15,000 bond. His bail in this one to get out was $171. So the victim like you said did try to keep him in jail --
GRACE: Oh my stars.
ROBERT: She wrote a letter and they say they just didn`t get it in time.
GRACE: Under $200? With the burglary victim asking please, don`t release him? What should have been a $10,000 bond was $170? And now this
little girl, Jasmine Miller, is dead at the hands of this guy? According to police? To Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist, renowned
toxicologist and medical examiner, Dr. Morrone, we`re going to find out what he lured her with during autopsy.
MORRONE: Well, they are going to have an opportunity to examine stomach contents. And based on the time and the timeline of stomach
contents, we`ll know also if there`s been previous times in the day where they offered things. Bananas, other fruit, candy. Those kind of things,
they fix in autopsy. They don`t disappear. They are there for hours and hours and hours. Very important evidence.
GRACE: We are talking, everyone, for those of you who just joined us about 6-year-old Jasmine Miller, playing outside where her family lived in
a complex. They noticed that she was gone. They tried to find her, looked, looked, looked. There she is in her little cheerleader outfit.
You know, my twins are 7 years old. This little girl was 6. And one of mommy`s neighbors is this guy, a 55-year-old man with a criminal history,
John P. Roberts, who just was released on a $170 bond. According to police she died at his hands. Dr. Morrone, what was the condition of her body?
Where was it found?
MORRONE: The condition of the body in the crime scene was related to the placement, under the bed. And I think what we have to realize is any
adult assault on a pediatric patient is only going to require minimal amounts of energy. It takes a tenth the energy to suffocate somebody.
It`s very, very soft. Something like very, very soft. And with no resistance, it would be even greater, the trauma inflicted. There will be
bruises. There will be signs of bones that are broken if the X-rays come up with that. And this is a terrible crime for children to -- it`s hard
for me to say. Because I have kids the same age as you. It`s just really hard for me to say.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jasmine Miller disappeared. At some point Roberts used snacks to lure the girl. They later found her under the bed
in the motel room (inaudible) by Roberts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The news of a young girl being killed in the Ozarks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did it happen?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`ve got right here the police documents that suggest that this little girl, just 6 years old, was lured by a neighbor by snacks. You
know, Marc Klaas joining me, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. That is one of the oldest tricks in the book pedophiles use.
That and can you help me find my puppy.
KLAAS: That`s exactly right. In fact, Nancy, there`s two things. No. 1, the family never, ever should have allowed her out of their sight.
There is no question about that whatsoever. But two, you are absolutely right about the lure. There is a whole series of lures pedophiles use to
lure children. As you just mentioned, there is the puppy lure. There`s the lure of help me get something out of my car. And when the child goes
to do that, they get thrown into the car. There`s the candy lure. And parents have to talk to their children. And in fact, there is a great
program called Child Lures, which will -- which will teach them about how to avoid these kinds of things.
GRACE: But, you know, the other thing, Marc, we`ve done studies and experiments over and over and over. You can tell a little child 5 or 6
years old, don`t go with a stranger, and then you leave them on their own, they go with a stranger. They don`t have the mental capacity to understand
so many times what`s happening.
For those of you just joining us, we are talking about 6-year-old Jasmine Miller. You just saw her picture in a little cheerleading outfit
at age six. One of her mom`s neighbors who had just gotten out of jail on a burglary charge with a low bond -- thanks, judge -- is now accused of
luring this little girl with snacks. There`s his picture. That`s 55-year- old John P. Roberts. The thought that that is the last thing this child saw before her death is excruciating.
So Dr. Morrone, I assume we`ll learn that he assaulted -- sexually assaulted the little girl.
MORRONE: There`s -- that`s always highly likely in these scenarios. You are looking for sexual assault. You are looking for trauma. And as
part of the regular autopsy, they will present this. And it makes the case all that more tragic. Hug your children.
GRACE: I mean, did the last hours of her life were torture. And this guy walked on $170 bond? Clark Goldband, please tell me this is a death
penalty jurisdiction.
GOLDBAND: Nancy, it is. And if it is sought, we talked to the prosecutor, they haven`t decided, it will be injection or gas. But Nancy,
I want to shine the spotlight for just a second on this six-year-old girl, Jasmine. She was the kind of girl, according to the press down there in
Branson, she knew a parent was diagnosed with cancer. A parent of one of her friends. And she saw the parent on the playground, and the parent was
not able to push her friend on the swing. She went up to the parent and told them that it was okay. That her friend still knew he was a good dad.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, Glenburn, Maine. Did a grown man, a father of one, pose as a teen boy on Facebook to lure a teen girl to her death?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one day after she was reported missing, detectives say they found a hat, sock and sneaker that DNA evidence later
showed belongs to Nicole Cable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What possesses you to do something like that to a 15-year-old girl?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After searching for more than a week, wardens found Nicole`s body in a wooded area off of Gilman Falls Avenue. Friends
wearing yellow shirts, Nicole`s favorite color, say they know Kyle Dube but wish they didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t want to talk to him. It sickens me to know him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Judy Harrison, legal affairs reporter with the Bangor Daily News, could you explain to those viewers that are just learning about this
case, how this grown man with a child apparently portrayed himself, posed as a teen boy, to lure this little girl to her death?
HARRISON: He was 19 when this crime occurred, and he created a Facebook page pretending to be someone else, the boyfriend of his
girlfriend at that particular time, and chatted with her on Facebook and invited her to meet him and come spend some time with him and smoke some
marijuana. His plan, according to police, was he was going to kidnap her and then he was going to rush in and rescue her, and be a hero.
GRACE: Okay. Well, Judy, how does asphyxiation, death by asphyxiation fit into that scenario? That doesn`t sound true to me.
HARRISON: The medical examiner has not yet testified, and the medical examiner`s report has not been made public, and so what we do not know
exactly what happened when he met her at his truck at the end of her road, and supposedly wearing a ski mask, jumped out and tried to wrestle her into
his father`s truck.
GRACE: Brian Mackiewicz joining me right now, threat management investigator, tech expert in Maricopa County sheriff`s office. Brian, what
can we learn from the fake Facebook profile?
MACKIEWICZ: Okay, several people are doing this nowadays as far as setting up fake Facebook accounts. Facebook as a company maintains all the
information that communicates with the different Facebook accounts. So we`re able to track that, track Facebook accounts and messages through IP
addresses, Internet protocol addresses, which is used widely on the Internet to communicate with different computers.
GRACE: Can you go to Facebook and actually get the screen grabs? Do they still exist? Are they out there in the cloud somewhere? Can we get
what he was saying to this girl?
MACKIEWICZ: Facebook maintains all that information for a certain amount of time.
GRACE: When you say a certain amount of time, what do you mean, a year, two years, a week, what?
MACKIEWICZ: I`m exactly not sure what Facebook retention times are. Different companies have different retention periods. Facebook probably
could be anywhere from 30 to 180 days retention period to gather Internet protocol --
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Patrick McDonough and Deborah Blum. Patrick McDonough, his own defense doesn`t fit with the
forensic evidence. He said in his defense this was all just a hoax gone wrong, that he wanted to be the hero, to have her kidnapped and he was
going to save her. So how does strangling her dead by neck compression fit into his scenario?
MCDONOUGH: That`s not his scenario. That`s what the prosecution said. The prosecution`s scenario or theory of the case contradicts itself.
The theory of his case, as I understand it, is that someone else did this, and it appears there was a girlfriend or an ex-girlfriend that had access
to his computer, that had some type of motive or vendetta against this girl.
GRACE: I want to get the facts straight. Stacey Newman, where is this theory coming from?
NEWMAN: It`s coming from the defense, but Nancy, here is the thing, it`s already been proven. This so-called other suspect, his girlfriend,
was nowhere near this crime scene, and prosecutors have the evidence to back that. So it`s going to be very hard for him to use that as his
defense.
GRACE: The S.O.D. defense, some other dude did it. I.e., his girlfriend. She`s nowhere around, McDonough.
MCDONOUGH: I`m not sure about that. My understanding is he has an alibi himself for the time of the murder, and I think what they said is --
the judge was saying that they did not provide enough evidence where she was at the time, so I don`t know if that`s been fleshed out. I do know
there`s a lot of conflicting information at this stage.
GRACE: OK, I bet there is, and you know what, we`ll have a chance to flesh that out in court.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant Robert Love Jr., just 28, Livingston, Alabama. Bronze Star, loved playing the
trombone, dreamed of buying land in Texas to build a home. Parents Robert Sr. and Mary, two brothers, two sisters, widow Breanna, also served in the
Army, and two daughters. Robert Love Jr., American hero.
Tonight, everybody, on the tenth anniversary of our show hitting the airwaves, I want you to know how deeply grateful I am to my staff, to my
bosses, and to you, our viewers, who have stood by us for ten years. It flew by in an instant. Speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves.
Never gets old. It`s always new and it always matters. Every single victim, every single night. Thank you and God bless you. Next, a one-hour
Nancy Grace ten-year special. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
