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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview with Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard; Jihadi John Unmasked; FBI: Suspect's Mom Took Away His Passport; Report: ISIS Holding 262 Christians Hostage

Aired February 26, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: So, U.S. officials say they know who the notorious ISIS butcher Jihadi John is. So now what?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. Every time he appeared on camera, you steeled yourself for another ghastly scene. Until today, we only suspected he hailed from London, but now the world knows his name. Does that help or hurt the global mission to stop him?

The national lead: new details about the three New Yorkers arrested for allegedly conspiring to join ISIS -- today, the FBI sounding the alarm about ISIS recruiting. How many others could be lurking in the shadows?

Plus: the politics lead -- a key conservative gathering kicking off in Washington today, potential presidential candidates galore taking the stage. The campaigns have not started, but the fireworks and insults sure have. We will take you there live.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. We begin today with our world lead.

Today, the FBI made a stunning admission. The U.S. is losing the battle to stop ISIS recruiting on the Internet. In front of Congress, the director of the FBI's counterterrorism unit, Michael Steinbach, conceded that while the United States is furiously trying to counter the terrorist narrative online, ISIS is still succeeding in radicalizing countless Americans on U.S. soil.

Also today, testimony that 180 Americans have tried or have successfully gone to Syria to fight jihad. Some of them have come back here to the United States. Could one of them be the next Jihadi John, whose real name was revealed this morning? The killer hiding behind the mask, the ISIS terrorist who beheaded American and British hostages on camera, alleged to Mohammed Emwazi. U.S. officials say he is a 26-year-old Kuwaiti-born Londoner.

He graduated from the University of Westminster in 2009 with a degree in information technology. He used to live in this house on a quiet London street. He disappeared in 2012, his family says, to Syria.

I want to get to CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto. Jim, what else are we learning this man, Mohammed Emwazi?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, in effect, we learned that the accent was real, that he was indeed a British national born in Kuwait, but in addition to that, well-off, relatively well-educated and radicalized fairly quickly, it seems, after some bad encounters with the authorities.

Together, his case and others we have seen recently show the broad appeal of ISIS in the Mideast and in the West, men and women among downtrodden radicals with nothing to lose and people like Jihadi John of relative privilege.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You now have 72 hours.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): He has been the voice of some of ISIS' most brutal terror videos, calm, ruthless, and with a distinct and surprising British accent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our knife will continue to strike the necks of your people.

SCIUTTO: Now U.K. authorities have identified the terrorist known as Jihadi John as Mohammed Emwazi, a 26-year-old British national born in Kuwait, but raised in London.

Though U.S. officials would not publicly discuss his suspected identity, today, the White House said Jihadi John is a top terror target.

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: In the mind of the president, he ranks highly on the list because that individual is responsible for the murder of innocent Americans, and the president is determined to bring him to justice.

SCIUTTO: Emwazi illustrates ISIS' alarmingly broad appeal, from a well-off family, earning a college degree in technology at the University of Westminster, and until his travel to Syria in 2012, enjoying a life of privilege. Today, his friends said they never saw signs of his future as a terrorist.

ASIM QURESHI, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, CAGE: He was such a beautiful young man, really. You know, it's hard to imagine the trajectory, but it's not a trajectory that's unfamiliar with us -- for us.

SCIUTTO: Emwazi's friends say his path to radicalization may have begun in 2009, when he traveled to Tanzania to go on a safari, a graduation present from his parents. But he was detained on arrival, held overnight, then deported to the U.K., authorities suspecting his true intention was to travel to Somalia.

In 2010, he was detained again by counterterrorism officials in Britain. Just two years later, Emwazi is believed to have traveled to Syria, where he joined ISIS. His friends claim mistreatment by British authorities set him on a path to terrorism.

QURESHI: Our entire national security strategy for the last 13 years has only increased alienation, has only increased people feeling like they don't belong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: That was a fairly alarming defense, considering Emwazi's truly brutal crimes, particularly for families of his victims. And today the daughter of one of his victims, that is the British aid worker David Haines, said that the family of his victims will not find relief, in his words -- in her words, rather, until there's a bullet between his eyes.

And that sort of emotion certainly sparked by this, but keep in mind that's part of the reason why they feature him so prominently in their videos, because they know it's going to go right to our hearts and into our minds and scare the heck out of us.

TAPPER: Effective propaganda.

Thank you so much, Jim Sciutto.

Nic Robertson is in London, where British officials are not yet confirming the identity of Jihadi John.

Nic, what has Downing Street said in the wake of these reports?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, what we are hearing from the prime minister's office at Number 10 Downing Street, they will never confirm nor deny the name of Jihadi John, Mohammed Emwazi.

We are also hearing a similar thing from the police here, the Metropolitan Police in charge of counterterrorism in London. They are saying that they have always told the media to stay away from speculation about who Jihadi John might be. They say life is at stake. And they also go on to say they will not provide a running commentary over what is for them an active terrorism investigation.

So, at the moment, British authorities are staying away from getting into the details of this, but what is very interesting at this time, we have heard what the CAGE organization has had to say. Their narrative picks up in 2009.

But what the intelligence authorities and the Metropolitan Police here will certainly know about is why Mohammed Emwazi came on the radar of MI5 and the British counterterrorism authorities here. That's something that they are not sharing at this time. Perhaps we will get more details on it in the future. Perhaps if this is a case that goes to court under British law, that's when those details will get revealed.

That would be typical of the way the British police operate. But key in all of this is, how and why did Mohammed Emwazi get on the radar of British intelligence officials -- Jake. TAPPER: Still so much to know. Nic Robertson reporting from London, thank you so much.

So, just how safe are we from the Jihadi Johns of the world, and from terrorism in general? Well, that depends on whom you ask. Take a listen to the director of national intelligence, General James Clapper, today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CLAPPER, NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DIRECTOR: When the final accounting is done, 2014 will have been the most lethal year for global terrorism in the 45 years such data has been compiled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: OK. Let that sink in, the most lethal year for terrorism since the West has kept data on it. However, the director seems to have a different view on the state of safety than other high-ranking security officials from the same administration. Take a listen to Secretary of State John Kerry, for example. Here's what he had to say about terrorism today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: There is actually less threat and less probability of people dying in some sort of violent conflict today than at any time in human history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So what's the answer? Are we coming off the most dangerous year in recorded history for terrorism, or are we safer today from the threat of terrorism than ever before?

Let's talk with Democratic Congresswoman from Hawaii, member of the Armed Services and Foreign Affairs Committee, Tulsi Gabbard.

Also, of course, I should mention that you are a United States veteran. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D), HAWAII: Aloha, Jake.

TAPPER: We appreciate it.

So, what's the answer? Do I go with Clapper or do I go with Kerry?

GABBARD: Let's go with reality. How about that?

TAPPER: I like that. Which one of them is reflecting reality, Clapper or Kerry?

GABBARD: Well, look, I think this actually points to the concern that I hear from people, both in my district in Hawaii, but all across the country, about their lack of confidence and lack of trust, because of these kinds of mixed messages and the news that we hear constantly about this growing threat of Islamic extremism, that it's more than just about one specific group called ISIS, but you hear about Al- Shabaab and al Qaeda and Boko Haram and what they are doing, and the call to action, the call for an effective winning strategy, to first of all, identify who our enemy is, why they are doing what they're doing and, what are we going to do about it working with our partners in the region and around the world?

TAPPER: So, should I read into what you just said that you side with Clapper, that this is a dangerous time?

GABBARD: Absolutely. Absolutely.

And we are at risk if we don't take this seriously, if the United States leaders here don't take it seriously and actually learn from lessons of the past, see how do we address this unconventional threat that really does pose a threat to not only those in the Middle East, but here in the United States and other parts of the world, that this threat will continue to grow.

TAPPER: Let's talk about Jihadi John, obviously part of the threat. The British officials had him on their radar for years, and yet obviously, he is now in Iraq or Syria, wherever he is, wreaking terror, wreaking havoc.

How did he end up in Syria fighting for ISIS if British intelligence knew about him?

GABBARD: I think it's important to ask the questions of those security and intelligence agencies to see how they need to further strengthen and plug holes that they may have in their system.

But I think it's also important to pose the question and disprove the negative argument that's been laid out that ISIS is made up of people who are coming from poverty-stricken countries or who have been oppressed in some way and who are alienated.

When you look at a guy like Emwazi, Jihadi John, where he came from a well-off family in a well-to-do society, computer science degree.

TAPPER: Right.

GABBARD: Everyone around him saying, hey, life is looking good for this guy.

But he has turned to them clearly because of their highest recruiting tool, which is this Islamic extremist ideology, this promise of a spiritual heaven for people who go and conduct these atrocious and horrific actions, and that's where we need to target groups like ISIS, militarily, decisively, but also we have to defeat this ideology that's recruiting people like Jihadi John.

TAPPER: OK. But you are arguing that he didn't -- obviously, he had economic means, but there are people, including this Muslim rights group in London, who say that one of the reasons that he may have turned to this path is because he was, in their view -- this is not me speaking, this is them -- he was harassed and harangued by British intelligence and law enforcement.

What would your response be to that?

GABBARD: Well, I would say that they were doing their job, first of all. If you are identifying someone who could be a potential and credible threat to the safety and security of your people or people elsewhere, obviously, you should be asking questions.

And connecting the dots really between being -- not being allowed to leave the country or being questioned to someone who has beheaded so many people is a difficult connection for me to make. But, again, I think that's beside the point.

I think this is not just about this guy Jihadi John. We have got to look at the deeper issue of the group and the people -- the various groups, actually, who are fueled by this common ideology and that we are seeing something unlike we have ever seen before because of it.

TAPPER: Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, thank you so much for coming in. Really appreciate it, as always.

Jihadi John's unmasking comes just one day after the arrest of suspected ISIS recruits from Brooklyn, New York -- new details about those three men next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

More on our top story in the national lead: the threat of Islamic terrorists here and abroad. Today, we are learning new details about two New Yorkers accused of trying to join ISIS and wreak havoc and terror, and a third man arrested for allegedly trying to help them. One allegedly threatened to kill President Obama. They had trouble carrying out their plans partly at least because one of their mothers may have clipped their wings by hanging on to his passport, thus preventing his travel to Turkey and then Syria.

CNN's Will Ripley is live for us in the Brooklyn neighborhood where these men lived.

Will, what are you learning about their lives before the arrests?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so the 19-year-old suspect lived in this apartment building behind me, Jake, with his mother, we are told, according to neighbors and the building's superintendent and his mother did withhold his passport when she was suspicious about his motives. He was telling her he wanted to go back home to Uzbekistan. She didn't quite believe him, and so she kept that passport away. Very simple apartment building inside, no frills.

This is a working class neighborhood, the Coney Island neighborhood here in Brooklyn. Very diverse with a large Jewish population and small Muslim pockets that we are told oftentimes feel separate from the rest of the community. We did get a sense by talking to the former boss of the 24-year-old

suspect who worked at a gyro shop about 12 blocks from here, that his religion was very important to him. He attended two different mosques in this neighborhood, but he never gave any indication of radical views, only telling his boss just this week on Tuesday that he was not going to be coming to work after Thursday, that he was going back to Uzbekistan as well. And, of course, both men arrested here yesterday. Also in Florida, a 30-year-old who owns some mall kiosks, one of the men, 19-year-old actually worked at the kiosk and, of course, that 30- year-old accused of being the money man.

But you have in this working class neighborhood three men with Brooklyn roots apparently lured by social media, by ISIS, according to federal prosecutors, promised something bigger than that $500 a week job at the Gyro Shop and that simple apartment behind me, Jake.

TAPPER: Will Ripley, live in Brooklyn, thank you so much.

Let's bring in Peter Neumann. He's director of the International Center for the Study of Radicalization at Kings College in London.

Good to see you again.

What do you say to critics who look at this case and suggest none of these guys arrested in Brooklyn and the third one in Florida would have actually likely carried anything out if the FBI's confidential informant had not been involved? What would your response be?

PETER NEUMANN, DIR., INTL. CENTRE FOR THE STUDY OF RADICALIZATION: My response would be it's impossible to say. And this is one of the really great difficulties that we are dealing with now, because the Internet, we are monitoring, at my institute, monitoring jihadists on the internet. It throws up literally thousands of people who are coming out with supportive statements about ISIS. Very few of them actually then go to Syria.

How do you distinguish? There's no reliable method that would allow you to tell from what someone says on the Internet whether he's going to pack his bags tomorrow. In this case, I guess the FBI didn't want to take a chance.

TAPPER: Let's turn to Jihadi John. He has become an ISIS icon. Does unmasking him, revealing his name to the world as happened today, in your estimation, does that harm the terrorists' efforts to recruit or does it potentially help?

NEUMANN: I don't think it makes any difference, to be honest. I think it would make a difference if he was killed, if he was brought to justice as the politicians say.

Just revealing his name is I think probably going to get a lot of people quite excited. Whether it makes a difference on the ground, I don't think so.

TAPPER: How does one go you study people who are radicalized -- how does one go from getting an IT degree at a respectable university to cutting off reporters' heads, aid workers' heads in Syria in the name of Allah? Does one have to start out as unbalanced to begin with?

NEUMANN: Not necessarily, even though there are cases where people are unbalanced. We will have to find out a lot more about this case. It's a fallacy to think everyone who gets radicalized is pure and uneducated. There is clearly a segment within the extremist population of people who are quite intellectual, who are from well-off backgrounds, but who still think they do not have a place in society, who are still struggling with identity and for whom this sort of very black and white ideology that comes in that is also very hateful of society kind of makes sense to them.

And I know that at a lot of universities in London, there are radical groups that are active and may well have been that they picked him up at that point in his life.

TAPPER: I want to get your response to what's being said by CAGE, this Muslim rights group in London, suggesting that all of Jihadi John's run-ins with British intelligence and law enforcement over the years may have pushed him to the edge.

NEUMANN: To be honest, I think it's absurd. I think it really confuses cause and effect.

The reason why he got harassed by security services is because he wanted to go to Somalia and join al Shabaab. That's a good reason to harass someone. So, he was radicalized at the point where he started being harassed to begin with. What we do not understand is how he got to that point of wanting to join al Shabaab. To say that the harassment of the security services radicalized him is for me really quite bizarre.

TAPPER: And, quickly, if you could, is it significant, do you think that Emwazi had a very low profile on social media?

NEUMANN: I think there is reason for that. Of course, if he has been on the radar of the security services since pretty much 2009, I think it's logical that he would have eliminated his Facebook profile and whatever else he had on social media. It's quite different from a lot of people who get radicalized later on and who are not monitored by security services but it makes complete sense.

TAPPER: Peter Neumann, as always, thank you so much for your time and your expertise.

NEUMANN: Thank you.

TAPPER: As more recruits join ISIS, they are holding hundreds of Christians hostage inside Syria. The big question, will the coalition try to rescue them?

Plus, if the U.S. and Israel had a Facebook relationship status, right now, between Obama and Bibi, you could say it's complicated. The White House criticizing the Israeli prime minister before his visit to Washington. Will things get even more tense when he arrives on Capitol Hill next week?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're going to continue with our world lead. More hostages held in the deadly grip of ISIS, the terrorist group is now holding more than 260 Christians hostage inside Syria, according to a human rights organization. Many believed to be women and children, kidnapped from villages around Syria.

Joining me now from the Pentagon, CNN's Barbara Starr.

Barbara, what else do we know about these hostages?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Jake.

The Pentagon watching all of this very carefully because there have been air strikes they have conducted in the area. This is northeastern Syria. These are Assyrian Christians, more than 260 now said to be held hostage by ISIS, and that is double the estimate of just a few days ago as ISIS fighters have swept through this northeastern region across many villages, capturing women, children and the elderly.

There is great concern about the fate of these people, that they could be transferred deeper into Syria, be held as slaves there, some of them executed potentially. Dire concern about their fate and not a lot of information at this hour about exactly where they are being held -- Jake.

TAPPER: And, Barbara, what actions are being taken on the ground by the military?

STARR: Well, in terms of more -- I mean, they're trying to find out where these people are but inside Syria, not a lot that they can do about it. Air strikes are continuing and in Iraq, a lot of planning still going ahead about what we have been talking about for weeks now, the effort to retake Mosul, Iraq's second largest city, but fundamental concerns emerging about whether the Iraqi forces really are ready, will be ready, when they will be ready.

Today on Capitol Hill, one top military intelligence official said it could be six to nine months before fundamentally, the entire Iraqi military is once again ready to take on major combat operations -- Jake.

TAPPER: Six to nine months will be not a lot of time for those people.

Barbara Starr, thank you so much.

Coming up, Ben Carson, Chris Christie, Scott Walker, they may all belong to the same party but as the presidential race picks up steam, these guys are throwing elbows and insults at each other. A live report on all the drama and dish from the biggest conservative gathering of the year, that's next.

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