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Top Republicans to Speak at CPAC today; Jihadi John Identified; Malcolm X's Daughter on Modern Civil Rights Fight

Aired February 26, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Healthcare, guns, and Hillary Clinton. Ben Carson takes the stage and fires up conservatives at CPAC, the Conservative Political Action Conference.

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DR. BEN CARSON, PROFESSOR EMIRUTUS OF NEUROSURGERY, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: What am I for? What am I really ready for? I'm not ready for Hillary; but I'm ready for - I'm ready for a country that puts our Constitution on the top shelf.

(APPLAUSE)

CARSON: Every part of it. And for those who have any doubt, that includes the Second Amendment.

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COSTELLO: Dr. Carson getting a warm reception, as will Sarah Palin and Bobby Jindal. Presidential candidate and moderate Republican Jeb Bush may have a tougher town.

Brianna Keilar is in National Harbor, Maryland covering CPAC for us. Good morning.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you -- Carol. Yes, this is the big annual conservative revival basically and it's also window shopping for these conservative activists. That's why it's so important that all of these potential Republican presidential candidates come here and really wow this crowd.

And the thing that's going to be different this year that we're paying so much attention to is they're not just coming here and giving speeches. They also have to do a Q&A session. So this is really a better indication of kind of where their political chops are and how they're doing.

Yes, this is a group that's more conservative, it's more libertarian than the GOP party as a whole. They will be watching today as we have Chris Christie, Ted Cruz will take the stage, also Scott Walker, Bobby Jindal and Sarah Palin as well, guaranteed to really rile up this crowd. Big day tomorrow, Carol and that's because we're going to see Jeb Bush, Rick Perry, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, and don't forget, Donald Trump -- Carol.

COSTELLO: I want to center on Jeb Bush for just a second because I hear he's not giving a traditional speech but he's taking questions from Sean Hannity on stage and he's chosen to deliver his remarks that way. Why?

KEILAR: Yes. That's I think something -- certainly I think a lot of observers would say this is something that he needs to show that he can do. We haven't seen him do a whole lot of this. But it's also interesting. You also sort of wonder, when you see a Rand Paul or Marco Rubio in the past, they've come in here, they really fire up the crowd. Maybe he's having more of a back-and-forth instead of doing that.

This is a crowd that he would have trouble with, Carol. In fact, right behind me going on, it's pretty low key but this is a conversation about common core, the voluntary federal education standards. You know that's going to be a big problem for Jeb Bush. He supports them. Many conservatives don't. Many just find them horrible, in fact. So he's going to really have to explain himself. And doing this Q&A is going to give him a chance to do that.

But remember all of these Republicans will give a speech and then they'll do some Q&A as well. So we'll see that from all of them.

COSTELLO: All right. Senior political correspondent Brianna Keilar -- thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Still to come, three Brooklyn men accused of plotting to help ISIS. Prosecutors say they were willing to strike here at home.

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COSTELLO: In Brooklyn, whispers and fears of home grown terrorism after the arrest of three men accused of plotting to help ISIS. Federal prosecutors say the goal was to join ISIS fighters in Syria, but if that failed, the backup plan was to launch attacks all the way to the White House.

CNN Justice Reporter Evan Perez joins me now with more on this. Good morning.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Good morning, Carol.

This is a plan the FBI says they first got on to last summer when they first noted -- the Secret Service alerted them that there was this Web site, an Uzbek language Web site with a posting from someone in Brooklyn who was musing about perhaps assassinating President Obama.

That's when they decided to pay a visit to this suspect. The suspect is Abdurasul Juraboev, 24 years old. And in the next couple days, the FBI visits both him and his roommate and they discover that these postings are accurate, that not only do they support -- express support for ISIS, but they're talking about doing other things as well.

And fast forward, Carol, the FBI introduces an informant to try to talk to all three of these suspects because they want to see where this might lead. The plan accelerates somewhat in February this year when the FBI hears -- again they're monitoring them, they're looking at their e-mail and they see that they are accelerating plans not only to travel to Syria, but they also noticed that there is someone who is trying to finance and perhaps build a network around these three suspects -- Carol. The criticism of the FBI's case here is that perhaps this was not at all that serious.

There's criticism from Andrew Perlmutter who is representing one of the suspects. Here is what he has to say.

ANDREW PERLMUTTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If these allegations do have some truth to them or in similar circumstances as FBI Director Comey said today, there are people around the country who seem to be flirting with extremism, it seems that the government's approach to these individuals is to label them as criminals and to take all the resources of the United States law enforcement apparatus and to throw it at them to try to build criminal prosecutions against them. As opposed to taking the time to try to understand why are they becoming radicalized.

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PEREZ: Carol, the FBI has recordings of some of these conversations with this informant. We expect that when this case comes to trial, we'll have to hear that and we'll see whether or not this is what this attorney is saying.

COSTELLO: All right. Evan Perez, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Let's talk more about this with former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. He joins me now. Good morning sir.

BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NYPD COMMISSIONER: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate it.

So I want to talk a little bit about these entrapment charges. One of the guys posts on his Facebook page, I'm really admiring ISIS and maybe want to join and I also would like to kill President Obama -- which is not a smart thing to post on Facebook, right and it leads authorities to them. They go and they question this guy and talk to him but they don't make an arrest at that time. Why?

KERIK: Well, it depends on what they got out of him at that time. There was enough for them to go and see him, to interview him. Maybe there wasn't enough for criminal charges at that point.

But you have to look at two things. One, these guys had to be morons. The FBI comes to your house. They interview you with the Secret Service. You threaten to kill the President or something close to it.

At that point -- this is in August, this is six months ago. You don't stop doing what you're doing? No, you continue to do it and it comes to the point that one of them is actually getting on a plane on the way to Turkey.

COSTELLO: Right, but in between that time, the FBI decides to use a paid informant to communicate with these guys, right?

So, the use of paid informants I know is controversial in some circles because -- I'm just curious, how much are paid informants paid?

KERIK: Well, it depends on the case, depends on what happens. Basically they are paid based on convictions.

COSTELLO: So the paid informant's goal is to get a conviction.

KERIK: Right -- absolutely.

COSTELLO: To draw these people into criminal activity.

KERIK: Right. Well, the other thing is, keep in mind, in this case I don't think they were drawing them in.

COSTELLO: No.

KERIK: You know -- they were already talking about it. And there is a concern with paid informants in the criminal justice world, but in this case, based on what I've read and what I've heard so far, I don't know. They were on it. They were looking to do it. They were getting on a plane. The paid informant wasn't, you know, escorting them through the airport.

COSTELLO: Right. One of the guy's mothers actually took his passport away because she feared he would go to Syria and join ISIS, right?

KERIK: Exactly. So I think there's more to the case, you know. You can't speculate at this point. Time will tell. But I think the case is pretty substantial.

COSTELLO: What about this notion that you just heard from one of the defense attorneys that why don't authorities kind of try to understand where these guys are coming from instead of immediately going for an arrest?

KERIK: That's absurd. I'm not sure what he was thinking, you know. They're talking about killing people. They're talking about a jihad against this country. They're talking about assassinating the President of the United States. I don't really give a damn, you know, where that's coming from. It's wrong.

COSTELLO: I think most Americans would probably agree with you.

There's a sentiment out there -- you said these guys were moron, right? Some people are saying well, exactly how dangerous were they then?

KERIK: Look, you have Jihad John out in Syria. I'm sure he wasn't dangerous when he was running around London. The problem is these guys get into Syria and Iraq. They start doing what they're doing. They're decapitating people. Learning different military tactics and they have American passports. They're going to come back here at some point and do what they were doing or doing what they were trained to do there. That's not what we need.

They need to stop every one of these people from going, and if we find them coming back, we need to make sure that we take them off the streets.

COSTELLO: Bernard Kerik, thank you sir for coming in. I appreciate it.

KERIK: Thank you.

COSTELLO: An activist organization that speaks on behalf of former Gitmo detainees is speaking out right now about the man believed to be Jihadi John, the ISIS terrorist shown in the beheading videos of two Americans.

Now this group is called CAGE. It says Mohammed Emwazi, the man believed to be Jihadi John, was a much different man than we see in the ISIS videos.

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ASIM QURESHI, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, CAGE: You might be surprised to know that the Mohammed that I knew was extremely kind, extremely gentle, extremely soft spoken; was the most humble young person that I knew.

We're going to release all the e-mails that I exchanged -- that we exchanged. We have consent from the family to do so. What you'll see when you read those e-mails is somebody who, despite going through great difficulties in his personal life, he belittled that difficulty in the sense that he would say to me, right to me things like I know you're dealing with very, very big cases, important cases, where there's human rights catastrophes taking place, but if you've even got a small amount of time, even it was a little bit of time just to work on my situation, I would really appreciate it.

This is the kind of person that we're talking about, the kind of person who would turn up at CAGE's offices with some baklava, just because he said, you know, like I was thinking about you guys. You're doing a little bit of work for me. I want to say thank you.

This is the kind of person that we're talking about. This is why when I'm asked is the person that you see on those videos the same as the person you remember, Mohammed Emwazi? It's difficult for me to say, yes, these two people are exactly the same.

Because there's that one character I remember, one person I remember, one young kind person that I remember. And then I see that image and there doesn't seem to be a correlation between the two. And even though, maybe I think we want to clarify that "The Washington Post" kind of recorded my comments incorrectly. While I think that there are some striking similarities between the young man that I remember and the person we see on the video, I can't be 100 percent certain. He's got a hood on. Come on, guys. The guy has a hood on his head. It's very, very difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: We know that British investigators will not confirm Jihadi John's identity. They'll only say those terrorists who appeared in that video will be held accountable.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, 50 years after his assassination, Malcolm X still looms large in the minds of many people on the front lines of today's civil rights fight. What would Malcolm X think about their tactics if he were alive today? I'll talk to his daughter next.

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COSTELLO: Their names have become rallying cries for millions: Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner. three men, all African- American, all killed in headline-making incidents that fueled conversations about race in America. They also sparked protests marked by the chants of "black lives matter", "I can't breathe" and "hands up, don't shoot". Those demonstrations stopping traffic from coast to coast, lighting up social media and attracting support not only in the United States but worldwide.

Those voices have seemingly fallen silent after months of unrest though. And with the Justice Department deciding not to file federal charges in the cases of Martin and Brown, should modern day activists look to civil rights icons of the past for the roadmap to lasting change?

That's the focus of a recent "New York Times" op-ed by my next guest. Her name Ilyasah Shabazz, she's the daughter of Malcolm X and the author of a new book based on his life entitled "X: A Novel". Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

ILYASAH SHABAZZ, DAUGHTER OF MALCOLM X: Thank you. Absolutely.

COSTELLO: So first off, tell me what your father might think of today's protests.

SHABAZZ: I think he would be very pleased with the young activists, the young protesters. But I also think that, you know, you have to have a goal at the end of the protesting.

COSTELLO: When you say he would be pleased, do you think he would be pleased with the hash tags?

SHABAZZ: No. I think he would be pleased with their activism, that they have compassion, that they're organizing and strategizing and coming together and saying that black lives do matter, that they have -- you know, that they feel passionate about what they're doing, but they have to take it a step further.

COSTELLO: Yes don't see those protests today like we did a few months back. What would you say about that?

SHABAZZ: Well, I think -- I'm hoping that maybe they're home strategizing. And so that's the only criticism that I would have, that we have to have, you know, a goal -- an end goal that's measurable.

COSTELLO: And you can't see an end goal in sight at this moment?

SHABAZZ: Not at this moment. But I'm going to have to believe that they're doing something.

COSTELLO: Would he be into the hash tags and the hands up and the chanting?

SHABAZZ: You know, hash tags, hands up, I think that they're inspiring.

COSTELLO: But at the end of the day.

SHABAZZ: At the end of the day they're just hash tags.

COSTELLO: Ok. I want to read a bit -- I want to read a part of your op-ed in "The New York Times" because I found it really powerful. You write "When Malcolm X spoke about the ballot or the bullet, Americans sat up and took notice as he articulated the searing reality that if not granted the right to participate in the system, black citizens would have no recourse but to fight. And when voting rights laws and practices changed it was in no small part because of powerful white Americans' fear of what could happen if they failed to act."

What do you mean by that? How should protesters make white America afraid?

SHABAZZ: I just think that we have -- it's about time that we come together and we address the systemic injustice. I mean it's still here 50 years later. The only way it's going to change is when --

COSTELLO: How did your father make white America fear the consequences if change didn't happen?

SHABAZZ: Well, he was very courageous and he simply said what was on his mind. The reality is that if we didn't address the injustice, the systemic racial challenges, that there was going to be problems. We see 50 years later, it's still here.

COSTELLO: So when you say -- I'm just trying to get at what exactly demonstrators need to do. Is it going to the voting booth, that kind of change?

SHABAZZ: Going to the voting booth.

COSTELLO: Is it civil unrest? Is it violence? What is it?

SHABAZZ: It's definitely not violence. I mean the he only violence -- it's not violence. It's going to the voting booths, it's having a plan. It's coming together and sticking to the plan with an end result.

COSTELLO: Got you. And just my final question, I don't think people really get a sense of the kind of real man your father was. He's become this icon, this historical figure. Tell us a bit about him.

SHABAZZ: Well, you know, Malcolm was only in his 20s when the world learned of him. And he was 39 when he was gunned down. It's a short amount of his lifetime, especially during the social climate of the 1960s that the world learned of him. I mean a man of impeccable integrity, amazing compassion, brilliance, courage. You know --

COSTELLO: Tell us about the man. Was he funny? Was he warm?

SHABAZZ: He was a beautiful person I mean. You know, you can see his compassion, genuine, trustworthy. I was so young when my father was killed.

COSTELLO: I know. I know you were. That's the saddest thing of all, right? You didn't get to really know him.

SHABAZZ: Right. But I'm really very proud of him. He not only inspires me in my work. He inspires countless others.

COSTELLO: He does. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming in.

I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: One of CNN's newest series "FINDING JESUS" is an in-depth look at some of the artifacts surrounding Jesus' life and death. In the first episode the shroud believed to be Jesus' burial cloth reveals clues that might point all the way back to the bible.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For 40 years, John Jackson has been comparing the Shroud of Turin with descriptions of Jesus' death in the bible.

JOHN JACKSON: When we come to the frontal image, we see what looked like bloodstains that are coming from essentially puncture type sources. They correspond to what the gospels tell us happened to Jesus, the crown of thorns.

DR. OBERY HENDRICKS, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: The purpose of the crown of thorns was to crush all Jewish aspirations that they would ever have self rule.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They press it into his head so that you see blood trickling down his face.

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: I find that one of the most poignant parts of Jesus' life, to have anyone be mocked like that, it's very difficult to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Uncover more in the premier episode of "FINDING JESUS" this Sunday, 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

And As I reported all through the two hours on CNN NEWSROOM, Jihadi John's true identity has been revealed. The United States authorities just confirmed that. Of course, we'll be following that throughout the day here on CNN.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"AT THIS HOUR" with Berman And Bolduan just ahead.