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Dr. Drew

Salt Mom Guilty Of Murdering Her 5-Year-Old Son And Tortured Him With Lethal Quantities Of Salt; Bobbi Kristina Brown Now In A Coma For 31 Day; A Homeless Man Shot To Death By LAPD Officers

Aired March 02, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, salt mom guilty of murdering her 5-year-old son. She tortured him with lethal

quantities of salt. Plus, Bobbi Kristina Brown now in a coma for 31 days. How long before someone says enough is enough?

But, let us get started with the most tweeted story of the night. Breaking news about a homeless man shot to death by LAPD officers. They say he was

reaching for one of their guns. A witness disputes that.

The whole thing caught on camera, posted to Facebook and viewed more than one million times. And, even tonight now, there is yet new video. And,

warning, the video I am going to show you here is disturbing but take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Drop the gun! Drop the gun! Drop the gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh, my God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, my (EXPLETIVE WORD) God!

UNDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh my God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Mother (EXPLETIVE WORD).

UNDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh my God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Mother (EXPLETIVE WORD).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us Evy Poumpouras, Security Expert, Former Agent with the Secret Service -- special agent secret service; Vanessa Barnett,

Hiphollywood.com and Judy Ho Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University. And, on the phone, CNN Correspondent, Sara Sidner.

Sara give us the latest if you will.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Dr. Drew, the video that you were seeing there, which is so dramatic and chaotic and ultimately and --

where a man is killed right in front of your eyes, that was taken by a witness that we spoke to today, Mr. Anthony Blackburn.

He happened to be in the neighborhood. He was going to jump on a bus to go see a family member when he heard the sound of the taser. He said he heard

police talking to the man before all of these things that you see on video saying, "Get up against the wall." They were going to try to make an

arrest.

Police says they were actually in the neighborhood because there had been a call to 911 about a robbery and that the man that they came upon fit the

description of the suspect. Once they got there, the witnesses said that there was an altercation between them and the man. You can also see on

that video, Dr. Drew, where the man does seem to be aggressive towards police.

PINSKY: You also, Sara -- you also hear -- Yes. And, Sara, you also hear the cops say, "Drop the gun. Drop the gun. Drop the gun." And, then

boom, you hear the firing after that. What gun is he handling? Do we know?

SIDNER (via phone): Well, the police said it heated -- he was not armed himself. However, they say he did try to take one of the officer`s guns.

They say that they have evidence of that. They showed that gun today. You know, these guns are holsters in tightly. It does take quite a bit of an

effort to get them out of the holster.

But, they say that they have evidence that the man did try and pull that gun. And, as soon as that started happening, you can hear as you said,

"Drop the gun, drop the gun." In between that, you can actually hear the sound of the taser going off. They tasered him at least two times, and it

was ineffectual according to police.

And, eventually, an officer pulled a gun. You hear one shot and then you hear successive two shots and then another two shots, a total of five

shots. And it is very, very disturbing.

PINSKY: Very disturbing.

SIDNER: And, they still have not identified this man, because they have not gotten in touch with his next of kin yet.

PINSKY: Thank you, Sara for that update. And, we also have that new video of the shooting. It is from a surveillance video of -- off a homeless

shelter on Skid Row, if you could air that for me now. It shows -- there it is. It shows police fighting with the suspect and then subsequently the

shooting.

This is new video, breaking news tonight. Evy, You are the expert in security. Tell me, do you see a problem here? Or is this just how these

things -- how police are trained to handle situations like this?

EVY POUMPOURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So, there is a couple of different factors that we wound want to look at. The one main factor is

the gun. They showed a picture of the gun. And, they showed a picture of a gun that is stovepipe.

Stovepipe is what law enforcement refers to a gun with a bullet is lodged within the ejection chamber. Now, that -- having seen that and also that

the magazine of that weapon had been dislodged, what happens is if somebody tries to go for your gun, so to speak, which is what the term that is used

in law enforcement, when they try to take it out of the holster, it does not come out easily.

There is either a rocking method or a snap method to get that gun out. But, if somebody is trying to force it, then what happens is it shows that

ejection chamber -- that chamber up and down, and that in and of itself one shows proof that somebody did go for this officer`s gun and through that

use of force.

The other thing is you also have the verbal confirmation of hearing the individuals, hearing the officers saying, "Police, put down the gun." And,

then the officer saying, "He has got my gun. He has got my gun."

PINSKY: But, Evy, if they are unable to discharge the firearm without removing it from the holster and it is impossible to get out of the

holster, did they have to use lethal force on the guy?

POUMPOURAS: It is not -- No, no, no. It is incorrect. It is not impossible to get it out of the holster. You can absolutely get it out of

the holster. In fact, since the year 2000, if you look at uniform crime reports of the FBI, 57 police officers have been killed with their own

weapons. OK?

But, what happens is here the weapon was lodged a certain way. They may not have noticed it until after the fact. But, you do not have that time

if it is happening that quickly, Dr. Drew. This is the issue. You do not have time to assess, "OK, my weapon has malfunctioned. I am OK." That is

the issue here. You do not see that until after the fact.

PINSKY: And, yet, Vanessa, here we are again. Right?

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. It is unfortunate that this even happened. I think this day and age, we are all very skeptical

about these police versus civilian situations. But, again, you have a situation here where maybe the police did not have any other option. To

me, I would just hope that when --

PINSKY: I am surprised. I am surprised you are that easy going about this. But, this one -- This one convinced you.

BARNETT: -- Because I hear them say, "Drop the gun."

PINSKY: OK.

BARNETT: I do not know if I am necessarily convinced. I will not go that far. I do hear him say, "Drop the gun." I do want to believe that this

was their last resort.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: I do hear the tasers go off, but at the same token, you have four against one. And, I just want there to be some sort of training where in a

scenario like this -- and we have heard this man may have had mental issues.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: We have heard different things. And, we do see him swinging and fighting on the police. But, at the end of the day, when it is four

against one, I would hope that there is some other option as opposed to killing this man.

PINSKY: Well, Vanessa, here is the other option. This is why I brought Judy in. Judy, the other option would be that people like this poor man

are not out on their own in some sort of altered state, if he had mental illness. Some were saying he was released from a facility a couple of

months ago.

Really, the problem with cases like this is the overarching problems with our system and the fact that this guy ends up interacting with law

enforcement when he should have been in a mental health system.

It is in a different training when somebody is decompensated from a mental health standpoint than with somebody from law enforcement, when he is to

neutralize somebody who is a threat, we deescalate people.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right, Dr. Drew. This is the downward drift hypothesis of the mentally ill. Eventually, they can

handle work. They can hold down a job. They cannot keep living in a household, so then they end up on the street. And, they are not being

cared for in terms of their condition that led them there in the first place.

PINSKY: But, Judy, let us say you and I are confronting this guy. We are not going to say, hey, you know -- we are going to confront him

aggressively. We are going to surround and contain him.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: Which is different kind of training. And, Evy, I know you have taught me that you, guys, are trained to do this sort of neutralization

procedure. But, it is very different when you are dealing with a mentally ill individual. And, police are trained somewhat in this, but it is really

not the focus or the emphasis of their training. And, that is the tragedy here.

HO: Right. And, they are very hyper vigilant --

POUMPOURAS: Yes. The difference here, Dr. Drew -- if I may. The difference here, Dr. Drew, is that they were responding to a robbery. He

fit the description of that individual who had committed the robbery. Hence, right then and there, that escalates the situation because you might

be dealing with someone who committed a robbery. If this were not the case, then it may have been --

PINSKY: Evy, there is a whole other problem here in Los Angeles in California -- well, Los Angeles I guess particularly is that we have

overcrowded prisons.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: And, people are spilling out on the street. You know, here is the sum total of our problems. We have overcrowded prison. And, we expect the

police to deal with the people who are spilled on the streets.

The law enforcement and prison system has become the mental delivery system. Not a last resort, an only resort. And, we have tragedies like

this as a result. I am going to keep this going.

Next, I am going to show you some time I spent on L.A. Skid Row. I will tell you what I learned there.

And, later, salt mom did it. A jury says she murdered her son with lethal amounts of sodium chloride, salt. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That man is dead now. That man is dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE BECK, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: Had the individual not grabbed the officer`s pistol, certainly we would not be having this discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY BLACKBURN, WITNESSED THE LAPD SHOOTING OF HOMELESS MAN: So, when he took his last breath, you know what I am saying? They handcuffed him.

You know, blood all over his hands and everything because he was holding his chest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He has a lot of mental issues. He is 98 percent and the people down here have mental issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Boy, she is right. We are back with Evy, Vanessa and Judy. And breaking news, talking about a homeless man who had been shot to death

after fighting with LAPD Police Officers. They say he was grabbing for one of their guns. And, there is new video of this incident.

Now, Vanessa, you actually freed me up to talk a little more broadly about this tragedy. Because I was not really sure where to -- how to think about

it except I have been listening to the news all day and no one is really talking about the underlying issue that is what set this up.

What set this up is our homeless situation in Los Angeles and the fact that this man, as that young woman said there in the opening tape, has mental

health issues and they are being unattended to. And, I understand, Evy, I understand that he may have commit aid crime, but all we know is that he

has some mental health problems. And, that is seemingly going unattended.

BARNETT: What I feel like sometimes when you have individuals with these mental health issues, it takes someone else in their life to help them get

help.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

BARNETT: And, we know that this man -- he was sleeping right outside of a shelter. He did he not want to go in. He did not want those types of

assistance.

PINSKY: Vanessa, you are going at the core of the problem.

BARNETT: There is a problem.

PINSKY: That is why we dismantled the hospitals, because people said, "Who are we, man? Who are we to restrict somebody`s freedom to put them in a

room they do not want to be in?" Sometimes you have do that, Judy, for their own good until their conditions deescalate, so they do not harm

themselves or someone else. Do you agree with me?

HO: I definitely agree with you, Dr. Drew. And, I think what Vanessa said is really actually very illustrative of what most people think of when you

think about a mentally ill person who is homeless.

That they somehow do not want the help and that is why they are laying outside of a shelter and not engaging. But, when you are that mentally

ill, Dr. Drew, that is precisely the problem. You do not have the cognitive faculties to say, "Yes, I want help."

PINSKY: Right. That is right.

HO: "I need help. I need my medication. I need to see a doctor." And, so, you know, this is just kind of very pervasive in terms of the way that

we conceptualize homeless, the mentally ill and what they involved in.

PINSKY: Right. There are those mentally ill that keep drifting out of the structure, out of their living environment. That does happen, but again if

there are skilled people around and they are committed to keeping them in a certain space, they do tend to get better. And, Evy, I do not think police

are really -- there is not their problem. That is not what they are trained to do.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: I know they have to deal with it more and more. But I think it is unfair to put police in that situation.

POUMPOURAS: You know, it is not really about police. It is about the criminal justice system as a whole. Earlier on you said something about

our prison population. Did you know that 25 percent of the world`s prison population, out of that 25 percent of those individuals belongs to the

United States.

We have a crime control perspective view of the justice system in the U.S., which means we are more prone to punish than treat people. That is the

underlying issue. We are less about rehabilitating individuals and more about punishing people.

PINSKY: And, Evy, there is a famous writer named Alexis Detalkville that came here to study democracy in America. And, he came here under the

conceit of coming to study our penitentiary system, which was the envy of the world, because people did penitence in the penitenciary system and got

better and restored to a productive life.

I do not know what we are doing different then. We still -- Americans are still human beings, we seemed to completely lost track. I understand we

are talking about things that are terribly expensive. I do not know how we fund some of these things.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: But, the fact is when we dismantled the state healthcare system, the state mental health hospital system, it was not just to save money. It

was because people believed we had no right to hold people. That was well before people wanted to save money on the system.

Then there were medications around to help contain people. That was the next layer in the dismantling of the system. And, the medications did make

it possible for some to be treated in outpatient settings, but it is so much more complicated than that. And, Judy, for some reason, people cannot

get their head around it. And, we would rather make it the police`s problem and the prison system`s problem.

HO: That is right and when we take crime control perspective, Dr. Drew, it actually costs more from a public health perspective. If we were to treat

these individuals, there would be less crime.

There would be less payment on the backend of having to imprison them and all of the fees associated with that. It would just be treating them and

preventing those negative outcomes. And, this is what really frustrates me about our system and I do not know what the answer is about how to change

it.

PINSKY: Well, I may -- at least, how about a will to change it? Vanessa, you say, though, it should go to law enforcement? Why?

BARNETT: It is part of the law enforcement`s problem.

PINSKY: Why?

BARNETT: Because if we see this happening year in, year out, and we understand that there are more issues with mental health and the police and

these sorts of situations happening, then it is their duty to do something about it.

PINSKY: But, they are doing the best they can.

BARNETT: There could be -- there can always be better. And, if you understand that there is a serious issue here, yes, there is a mental

health professional that need to do something. Yes, there are different areas of the government that need to do something, but yes the police

officers need to also -- there should be some sort of training in place. We cannot just say --

PINSKY: Well, I am sure there is. Listen --

BARNETT: -- we do not know what to do and now a man is dead where it could have been different.

PINSKY: But there is a different emphasis. And, Evy, these poor cops have to protect themselves and the public. That is the number one goal, not

treating a patient or deescalating a patient. That is a different emphasis of the interaction with these individuals.

POUMPOURAS: Yes. Look, at the end of the day, the simplistic thing is he got shot. As far as we can tell is because he was going for the officer`s

gun. I was trained in different academies, most dangerous is for somebody to go for your gun. The minute they have your gun, within seconds you

could be dead. That is really the underlying issue.

PINSKY: Yes. All the guys -- all those cops could have been dead.

POUMPOURAS: Mental health and all that --

PINSKY: They all could have been --

POUMPOURAS: Yes, absolutely.

PINSKY: He could have sprayed gunfire in all place.

POUMPOURAS: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Listen, I went -- a couple months ago, I went down to Skid Row and talked to some of the folks living down there. You get a sense of --

really almost every person I spoke to had stories similar to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Where do you live?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I live out here on 5th and 45 South on San Pedro.

PINSKY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I have been in a mental health since I was a child. I was in foster care. I do not know nothing about my history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): You know, I have been trying to kill myself for a lot of years, you know? But, by the grace of God, I am still here.

PINSKY: What is the primary drug?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Well, I use alcohol and crack cocaine. I have been to prison numerous times, you know, behind my drug use right

here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Right now, I am trying to get my mind stable.

PINSKY: What is your diagnosis?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): My diagnosis is depression disorder and anxiety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: What is your drug?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Well, at early age, it started off marijuana.

PINSKY: Alcohol?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Really alcohol.

PINSKY: But you need structure. You need safety. You need not chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. But I think --

PINSKY: You need to detox.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, some of these folks do not even necessarily need professional supervision, necessarily. They need professional assessment, but they need

structure. They need support. They need containment. And, they need a place to be contained. And, it is OK for us to hold people sometimes.

This all started back with Michelle Fukoa, famous philosopher from France, who said that the only reason people developmental illnesses is because you

put them in the environment where they behave that way. What a load of crap. I am sorry. The fact is our brain gets sick just like every other

organ.

And, we have systems to deal with all the other organs. We need to deal with this one. It is the most important one. I am sorry to say. And, by

the way, outcomes can be very, very good if we do our job properly.

It does not have to be expensive. I say we should throw the gauntlet down and figure out a way how to do this in a way that is cost-effective. But

it may require restricting some people`s freedoms from a period of time. That is OK. It has to be OK.

Next, salt mom breaks down in court after a jury finds her guilty of murdering her own son. We have a friend of hers will join us.

And, later, Bobbi Kristina Brown in a coma for 31 days. No change. How long, everybody? How long? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LACEY SPEAR, CONVICTED OF SALT-POISINING HER OWN SON: My sweet angle is in the hospital for the 23rd time. Please pray he gets to come home soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Lacey Spears killed, the mommy blogger, who use social media to chronicle her son`s medical condition, killed him by

poisoning him with salt. 5-year-old Garnett was admitted to the hospital last year with high levels of sodium in his system.

The boy reportedly suffered from digestive problems. A jury says his mother murdered the boy by putting lethal doses of salt in his feeding bag.

The state says she tortured her son to self a (INAUDIBLE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It is tragic when the caregiver of any child does anything but protect it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Time for "WTF." It is the most shocking story of the night, dominating social media. This woman, known as salt mom, guilty of second-

degree murder. Lacey Spears faces 15 years to life in prison for killing her 5-year-old son, Garnett.

Joining us Evy Poumpouras, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell." Leeann Tweeden, host of L.A.

Today on AM570 Radio. Leeann, do you think the jury got this one right?

LEEANN TWEEDEN, HOST OF L.A. TODAY ON AM570 RADIO: Yes. Absolutely, Dr. Drew. I mean as a new parent myself, I mean the one thing you are supposed

to do is protect your children no matter what.

PINSKY: If she did it. If she did it.

TWEEDEN: If she did it, Dr. Drew? Are you kidding me? This kid was sick since he was born. He had the feeding tube in his stomach since he was a

child, since he was an infant. She was able to do these things at home. I mean when they found one of the bags at the house, it had the equivalent of

69 packets of salt from McDonald is.

I mean what is this woman doing? And, then she goes to the hospital. They have footage of her going -- carrying a bag into the bathroom. She comes

out with her son and she sits there on the bed. And, one of the jurors said it looks like we were watching a murder. She sat there and stared at

him on the bed and was waiting for him to get sick. I mean that is disgusting, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: If that is what happened. And, it is so disgusting, Leeann. I cannot get my head around.

TWEEDEN: Right.

PINSKY: But, Loni, I am kind of still surprised by this verdict. Are you?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER ATTORNEY: No. I am not. I think that the prosecution did a really good job at being able to bring in all the evidence. But,

look, it was a sympathetic defendant. And, I think that is why the jury took the time they did to make this decision.

I mean there is this young mother who blogged about her child all the time. She is a single mom, very devoted to her child it appeared. But there are

three detectives on this case who spent thousands of hours going through all of her social media and then talking to doctor after doctor. All of

the doctors that she had been to overall these years -- or through many hospitals, may states, and were able to put this pattern together all the

way to the very end.

PINSKY: Now, let us talk about that. Because they all said they were concerned that there was something wrong with her from a mental health

perspective.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: They thought -- they thought bunny business was up in terms of how the mom was presenting the child. A few people mentioned -- doctors

mentioned the Munchausen`s question.

And, we are talking about Munchausen by proxy whereby a mom expresses her own need for attention by having the child present as ill by rendering

sometimes the child ill. Sometimes it is just their preoccupation with the child`s whatever, whatever symptom the child might have. The mom makes a

big deal out of it.

But sometimes the mom, actually, renders the child ill. And, that is what is at question here. And, Loni my question to you is, why did not they

mention either -- neither the defense nor prosecution, why did not they mention Munchausen by proxy?

COOMBS: You know, it is interesting, Dr. Drew. Because when we were talking about this case and when the detectives were trying to build the

case, everyone was talking about Munchausen and, perhaps, this was what she was doing. However, when it got to the trial --

PINSKY: Why?

COOMBS: -- Neither side want to bring it up.

PINSKY: Why?

COOMBS: The defense said, look, we are going to blame this all on the hospital. We are going to say that our client did nothing wrong.

PINSKY: That are a deep pocket or something they were going after? What is the deal?

COOMBS: No, no, no. They were just trying to cast the blame on the hospital and say that their client did not do anything wrong.

PINSKY: Why did not they say their client was mentally ill and the hospital did not identify it and therefore she was not responsible for what

she did?

COOMBS: That is not the defense state chose. The defense state choice is to say this is all the hospital`s fault. Our client is this purred person

who is as wonderful mother and they are blaming it on her, and it is not fair. And, they even went so far as asked the judge to say that the

prosecution could not bring this up because they said she was never formally declared to have this syndrome.

PINSKY: OK.

COOMBS: But, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: The interesting thing is the prosecution said in the end, "we do not want to bring it up either because even though maybe that is why she

was hurting him all along when it came down to the actual killing, we believe it was because she decided at that point, he was getting to the

point where he might tell people that she was doing this to him." So, it was that intent to kill, not the syndrome.

PINSKY: It is where I get the creeps that I like to bring in Evy. So, Evy, you have a way of looking at people and their behavior that exceeds my

imagination. But you would look at somebody like this and you see more sinister and less sick.

POUMPOURAS: No. I mean, I agree with you. I see Munchausen by proxy here. I see a mother, this pattern of behavior where she, unfortunately,

uses this little boy, really did not care about his well-being, tortured him his whole life.

PINSKY: But that is sinister, that is disgusting. That is the way -- you know I just see somebody who does not -- is operating from some

motivational state that she does not understand. If you say that she is acting out for attention consciously, that is sinister.

POUMPOURAS: Yes, it is sinister and the fact that she had complete disregard for her son. And, again, going back to what Loni was saying,

they are arguing the fact that she did not do it. So, I think if they argued the defense of Munchausen by proxy or some type of mental illness,

and they would be like, yes --

PINSKY: She did it, but --

POUMPOURAS: -- she did it, but this is why.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, Leeann, if they had given the Munchausen by proxy and let us say you are in jury, would that have made any difference to you or

you are just as angry as you are?

TWEEDEN: No. I would still be just as angry. I do not care for the reason why, Dr. Drew. I mean she knew in the end, you know -- I forget

what the term was. But, the jury kept asking the judge to repeat something to them. And, basically, they were trying to figure out whether she was

doing this consciously or whether she was doing it and not realizing that the end result could end in death.

PINSKY: Right. That is right.

TWEEDEN: And, when they finally came to that, they deliberated in two days and came back with the verdict of guilty, because they decided that, "Yes,

she was doing this knowing that there was going to be harm to the child. Maybe not the intent to kill him, but in the end if she did kill him, oh,

well."

PINSKY: Wow. It is such -- to me this is mind boggling. I am -- you know -- all right. I am going to speak to one of the salt mom`s friends. She

is going to join in just a second. Let us see what her thoughts are on this, because I think if I were on the jury, I would be in such disbelief

that somebody could do this to their child.

To me, it is the -- that is the most tender relationship you can possibly - - tender human relationship is the mother`s love for the child, and to see that turn around and become sinister is almost too much to swallow.

Later, Nick Gordon is making some shocking claims tonight about Bobbi Kristina. We will be back with that and more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Today, jurors convicted Lacey Spears of second-degree murder in the death of her 5-year-old son, Garnett. Spears

documented her health struggles with Garnett on social media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)

SPEARS: Garnett`s mommy is hoping the doctors can figure out what is going on today.

Headed to the doctor for the third time today.

Had a seizure this morning and was not around anything that should have caused one.

Please pray for my little prince. He has another bad ear infection. Poor baby boy.

My sweet angel is in the hospital for the 23rd time. Please pray he gets to come home soon.

(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)

PINSKY: Back with Evy, Loni and Leaann. A jury says salt mom, Lacey Spears, guilty of second-degree murder in the death of her 5-year-old son,

Garnett. 27-year-old mommy blogger was accused of killing him by having put a lethal dose of salt into his feeding tube. We have an audio

recreation of the child`s fatality report. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO RE-CREATION)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Medical records indicate the child was diagnosed with elevated sodium levels prior to his first birthday. These

reports also indicate there was a concern for the mother`s emotional stability and it was presumed she suffered from post-partum depression and

Munchausen syndrome by proxy.

On January 14, 2009, the mother verbalized that she wanted to harm the child and was referred to medical social services on February 9th for

interpersonal conflict, stress and dysfunction.

(END AUDIO RE-CREATION)

PINSKY: Now, Child Protective Services followed up but determined it was OK for her to keep custody of this child. So, Loni, there was a Munchausen

by proxy reference. There was concern about the child is safety. Who dropped the ball here?

COOMBS: Well, somebody did, did not they, Dr. Drew? It seems like right there the red flags were there. Somebody needed to stand up for this

little boy who could not stand up for himself.

PINSKY: So sad.

COOMBS: It is interesting that when it finally came to his death, the prosecution said that is when the little boy was getting old enough to

stand up for himself. And, that is why she finally did him in at that point.

PINSKY: Oh, my God, Loni. It is so sinister when you really sort of paint it that way. Now, more evidence when a doctor testified about the day he

told Lacey Spears that the son was likely brain dead.

The doctor told the jury, quote, "She had a very flat affect. She would stare at me. I felt like she was looking right through me." Evy, does

that confirm your suspicion of Munchausen or do you think that was just another ploy that she had been caught red handed?

POUMPOURAS: You know, whether she had Munchausen or not, Dr. Drew, in this case it really is irrelevant. You know, this is really where punishment

should be rendered, not mental health for someone like this.

PINSKY: It is too late.

POUMPOURAS: You see, it is one thing when somebody commits an act. It is one thing when somebody does something once and it is, you know, it happens

in that moment. This woman for five years, according to what we see.

For five years, she made the conscious decision to poison her child day after day after day. This is long-term thinking. This is long-term

deviousness. This is long-term sinister, as you put it.

PINSKY: And, Leeann, that is what has you climbing out of your skin?

TWEEDEN: Yes, absolutely. I mean what she did was totally disgusting, totally against everything that you feel as a parent when you carry a chil.

PINSKY: As a mother especially.

PINSKY: Right. You carry a child inside of you for nine months and your only job in life is to protect that child and then you go and do that. I

mean she was sick. She was evil. She was sinister and she has to pay for this crime. She has to pay the price, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: On the phone, I have a friend of Lacey Spears. Her name is Autumn Hunt. Now, Autumn, do you think the jury got this right? And, what is

your reaction to the verdict?

AUTUMN HUNT, LACEY SPEARS` FRIEND: With the verdict, I expected it. It was nothing that came as a shock to me just because of the amount of

evidence they had.

PINSKY: And, you actually had Lacey baby-sat your children or your child once? Do you feel like you just dodged a bullet? Did you have any

suspicions about here?

HUNT: I never would have thought that she did anything to harm my child. She did keep my son for about two years. She worked at the daycare that he

went to. She took him home in the afternoons from daycare. And, there was never a concern that she was doing anything to hurt my child.

PINSKY: And, you said there was a preponderance of evidence against her. When did you start sort of believing that this woman was capable of this

behavior?

HUNT: Just reading the report from the trial, the video monitoring that they had, the amount of salt that was in the feeding bags that were

confiscated from her home. I mean it was just shocking. It blew my mind to read of all the evidence that was presented in the case.

PINSKY: Thank you, Autumn. Loni, have you ever seen anything like this?

COOMBS: No. You know, it is kind of a strange thing. This combination of all the attention that people are getting on Facebook and social media.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: We do not know how much that played in to it for her. But it is interesting, the jury really struggled with this. There are some of them

who said, "Look, we wanted to look at all the evidence. None of us went in there and said immediately, `She is guilty immediately.` We took three

days." And, they really looked at what Autumn just said. That hospital video surveillance tape of her going into the bathroom --

PINSKY: It was damning.

COOMBS: Yes. Twice. And then he would be coming out and being so sick afterwards. They said look there was only two people in that room, her and

her poor little boy who was dying. And, that really -- that and the medical evidence really did it for them.

PINSKY: As always, both the last story and this one reminds us, again, the time for mental health services is prior to hurting someone else or

yourself. I understand you may not want to do these things. But they can be dangerous and somebody else can get hurt.

If you do not care about yourself, how about somebody else that you might hurt incidentally? And, the fact is, if somebody gets hurt, it is on the

legal system, then it is too late. It is too late.

Next up, will Bobbi Kristina Brown spend her 22nd birthday, which is Wednesday, in a coma? Of course, there is no other way because -- or she

will not survive that long. If you want to comment on this or any other story, check out our Facebook page and let us know what you think. We are

back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: She is a fighter and she is getting better. I am sorry but that is absolute nonsense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Dr. Drew, even you have to allow for the possibility of medical -- say it with me, everybody -- miracle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: This is not a miracle situation.

(ENDVIDEO CLIP)

NICCI GILBERT-DANIELS, R&B ARTIST: And, you know, all due respect, Dr. Drew, I am one who believes in the power of people being able to heal

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Drew, I am getting tired of you been trying to recruit me to your death panel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I would not ever want to recover given what is likely to be on the other side of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. I got Sam Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu!, Vanessa Barnett back with me and Segun Oduolowu, Entertainment

Journalist and host of "Wired In With Segun Podcast."

Bobbi Kristina will turn 22, tragically, this Wednesday. She spent the past 31 days in a coma, ventilator dependent, unable to breathe on her own,

unable to swallow, unable to move because her brain does not function. Segun, how much longer? How much longer do we wait for miracle? When do

we say enough is enough? Come on now.

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Oh Gosh, Dr. Drew. When it comes to children, I do not think you can ever say enough is enough --

PINSKY: She is a 22-year-old.

ODUOLOWU: But she is somebody`s child. She`s Bobby Brown`s child. Enough is never enough. I mean if you put yourself in Bobby Brown`s situation, we

would all go to the end of the earth for our children even I who have no kids would still go to the end of the earth with mythological kids I would

like to have.

PINSKY: Yes. OK. So, we as physicians can keep people -- can keep their heart beating and their lungs expanded with air and the blood circulating

their system, essentially, indefinitely.

ODUOLOWU: Right.

PINSKY: Would you want to be left in a vegetative state like that? And, I am telling you zero -- I have been consulted with a neurologist on the

show. I made my own assessment. Based on what we know about the condition that this young woman is in, the probability of Segun as we know him

returning, absolutely, zero. Zero, zero, zero. You want to go through that?

ODUOLOWU: Now, I am in a hard place because me without -- me not being able to be myself, please pull the plug.

PINSKY: At all. Yes. Yes.

ODUOLOWU: I just cannot imagine a world without my voice. But, I know that my parents would probably fight. And, that is why --

PINSKY: Because they would not believe the doctors. They would not want to believe it.

ODUOLOWU: That is it. They are going to hold out hope, Dr. Drew. And, you have to hold out hope in this situation.

PINSKY: Not when there is no hope. When there is hope. Help me out, Sam.

ODUOLOWU: No hope?

PINSKY: Of course, I want people to have hope, but this is a situation where there is no hope of meaningful recovery.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU!: Dr. Drew. No. I have come to your side. A week ago, I was like Segun and I was acting

emotionally. And I cannot even imagine having to essentially -- I do not like use the term pull the plug --

PINSKY: OK. How did you make that transition? How did you come to more realistic play --

SCHACHER : I did my own independent research. Even though , Dr. Drew, you are a doctor and everything I hear from you I take it verbatim and I --

PINSKY: Not exactly.

SCHACHER: Yes, I do. But, sometimes --

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Well, Vanessa does not. Do not worry.

SCHACHER: Sometimes you have to do your own research.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: And think critically and after I did my research I thought, "wow!"

PINSKY: Have you guys ever seen --

SCHACHER: It is cruel and it is selfish.

PINSKY: Yes. It is cruel. Thank you, Sam. And, if you -- that is right. It is selfish. You are so right.

SCHACHER: But, I understand.

PINSKY: Have you ever seen -- of course we understand. It is so overwhelmingly painful. Segun is not wrong about the hope.

ODUOLOWU: Thank you.

PINSKY: He is wrong about the execution of allowing somebody to cling to an unrealistic hope.

ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew, the only execution here is you as an executioner pulling the plug.

PINSKY: I am not talking about pulling the plug. I am talking about being realistic about this and being more aggressive with getting her out of the

ICU and getting her off the medically-induced coma and stuff. I mean the fact that if you -- Vanessa, have you ever seen somebody in a coma for 30

days on a ventilator with a G-tube and a tracheostomy?

BARNETT: Or longer, yes.

PINSKY: No. No. No. Ventilator dependent in an ICU?

BARNETT: Medically-induced coma, ventilator dependent in ICU, this woman, I know through a friend --

PINSKY: You saw her? You saw her?

BARNETT: I did not see it with my own eyes.

PINSKY: Listen --

BARNETT: But I know the story and I know it to be true. And, she was in that coma for over a month. It was six weeks and she was in a house fire.

She inhaled all this smoke. And, the doctors said, you know, we really need to talk about this next step because it does not look good. Low and

behold --

PINSKY: That is very, very, very, very different than there is no hope of meaningful recovery.

BARNETT: Why would you like to always say that?

PINSKY: No. I would not say that if -- based on what we are seeing.

BARNETT: You really do not know -- we do not know what those doctors said --

PINSKY: You are right. You are right. No. No. No, based on what we have been told. Based on what we have been told. Now, we are not there.

Legitimately, Vanessa, we are not there. But based on what we are hearing, she is not trache, she is on ventilator. She is not asleep, everybody.

Her boyfriend Nick Gordon and many viewers seem to think she is just resting and will, quote, wake up. Here is -- let me show you what Nick`s

most recent tweet, quote, "She is good. Getting some rest. Lots of stress. Losing her mother this month. Bobbi Kristina get your rest. Wake

soon though. I need my backup."

She is not asleep. She is not asleep. You do not wake up from something like this. You are never the same. It is something completely different.

It is a massive brain injury. What would have happened if she bashed her head in a motorcycle accident? Do you wake up from that? No. Parts of

the brain are missing. More after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: She is not asleep, everybody. This is not a sleep from which you wake up. This is a brain injury from which maybe after years of

rehabilitation, she could redevelop the ability to move her limbs again, maybe speak or swallow, not waking up. You do not wake up and "Oh, hey!"

It is not like television.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It is exactly what I am saying. And, I am back with Sam, Vanessa and Segun. And, now, there is some Twitter action guys where people are

saying, "Oh, I have seen somebody come together, you know come back after three months, four months, six months in a coma.

There are comas and then there are comas. This is somebody who is over a month, ventilator dependent with a G-tube in, cannot swallow, no response

to the outside world, unable to come off barbiturate, because when they lighten the medicine up, she develops uncontrolled seizuring because of the

massive diffused brain injury.

Prognostically, we had a neurologist on this show, very well-known neurologist, who made it very clear that the probability of meaningful

survival of being other than on a vegetative state, zero. Zero.

Now, let us talk about Nick Gordon for a second. He talk a swing at the Brown family on Twitter. He says, quote, "That family has the nerve to

blame me when I saved her life. I have not seen most of them in eight years then they come when she needs me most."

Now, Segun, do you think that he is -- he has mentioned this over and over again. The fact that he does CPR. He did CPR. He saved her life. Is he

guilty of something?

ODUOLOWU: I believe he is, Dr. Drew. What bothers me more than that is the conspiracy or him conspiring with her brother to now start printing up

t-shirts about Bobbi Kristina and turn her tragedy --

PINSKY: What is this? What is this?

ODUOLOWU: They want to print up t-shirts, you know, just like -- get better soon or pulling for Bobbi Kristina --

PINSKY: T-shirts that they are charging for money?

ODUOLOWU: Well, they are going to --

PINSKY: Wait, Sam, got it. Sam, what is it? Pull it up there.

SCHACHER: OK. All right. So, they are not charging. They are doing this free of charge to give these t-shirts to her supporters. And, it is

actually her cousin. So, before we condemn him --

PINSKY: It is not Nick?

SCHACHER: No. It is Nick Gordon --

ODUOLOWU: No. It is Nick.

SCHACHER: -- and her cousin.

PINSKY: OK.

SCHACHER: But, they are not charging for these T-shirts. They are actually sending them out to the supporters of Bobbi Kristina.

ODUOLOWU: But they are gaining publicity from this.

SCHACHER: Yes. He is tweeting too. I have a problem with that as well.

ODUOLOWU: Yes. I have a problem with gaining any attention from this tragedy. And, part of the reason that I want to keep her alive, Dr. Drew -

- you are right, Twitter is blowing up. I had a registered nurse just tweet the show, tweet me saying she is in a vegetative state and that she

is basically a vegetable with a heartbeat.

PINSKY: Yes.

ODUOLOWU: And, I can rationalize that with my mind, but my heart will not do that --

PINSKY: Well, that is why I said --

ODUOLOWU: If there is a crime --

PINSKY: That is why it is the job of the hospital and doctors and social workers there to get people to come to terms with what is real, what is.

ODUOLOWU: It is so heartless.

PINSKY: It is just dealing with reality as it is. I wish she could sing again. I wish a lot of things, but it is not possible. It is one -- we

are biological entities. There are specific realities that we can develop. We are biological, we get illnesses. We get brain injuries. We die. It

is just the way it is.

ODUOLOWU: But, Dr. Drew, if a crime -- if a crime has been committed, should not we at least keep her alive until we find out the full facts

before we take her off the ventilator?

PINSKY: I think that is an interesting question. And, I do not know if that is important or not. That is law enforcement who have to answer that.

But, Vanessa, do you get the feeling that there are sort of peculiar reasons that people are insisting on keeping her alive? I do not

understand the motivation that they do not contemplate anything other than she is going to recover.

BARNETT: I understand that you do not get that. But, I feel like it is just about her life for this family. I do not think they are trying to

figure out how to -- sure there are family members who are looking at her pockets, but I do not believe Cissy Houston, her grandmother and I do not

believe Bobby Brown her father are in cocoon trying to figure out, let us figure out the money and let us do --

PINSKY: All right. OK.

BARNETT: I do not believe that.

PINSKY: Sam, any evidence from your standpoint?

SCHACHER: No, I do not think that. I just think that why is Nick Brown -- why is Nick Gordon so forthright on Twitter? Why cannot he be that

forthright Bobby Brown. Because all Bobby Brown wants, according to Bobby Brown, is an explanation of what happened that day.

PINSKY: Yes, and then, Segun, what you see is him saying, rather than giving the explanation, he is saying, "I saved her. I saved her. I saved

her. I did CPR."

ODUOLOWU: Right. Let us make some T-shirts and bring more attention to ourselves. And, let me slam the Brown family. Let me slam all of these

relatives that supposedly were not there for her. He just seems sinister to me.

PINSKY: Nobody could be in more pain than her father. And, probably her grandmother, equally. But, her father I feel so bad for Bobby Brown. All

right, everybody, you can DVR us then watch us any time. And, "Forensic Files" starts immediately -- "Forensic Files" starts right now.

END