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Dr. Drew
A Facebook Feud Amongst Teen Leads To A Killing; A Text And The Girl Who Sent It Was Blamed For A Young Boy`s Suicide; People Are Protesting The Deadly LAPD Shooting; A Homeless Man Shot Five Times By Police Officers
Aired March 03, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, a Facebook feud amongst teen leads to a killing. Why did not the mother of
the dead girl stop this fight? We will hear from her.
Plus, could texting have encouraged a boy to take his own life? Police say yes. Let us get started with the most tweeted story of the night. People
are protesting the deadly LAPD shooting. A homeless man shot five times -- five times by three different police officers as they struggled to subdue
him.
They claim he grabbed for one of their guns. Tonight, there is new video showing what led up to the incident and we have new information about the
victim`s past. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: They marched from where the man who was known as Africa was shot and killed by police on Sunday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY BLACKBURN, WITNESSED THE HOMELESS MAN KILLED BY LAPD: There was like several officers around the man and he was a homeless man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Surveillance video obtained by CNN shows the man involved in alleged drug deals before pushing and kicking the tent of
the man next to him. All this before he is confronted by the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKBURN: After the first tase. He was shot up in his tent. They snapped the top of the tent off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: And, they just came out with their gun and shot him five times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLIE BECK, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT CHIEF POLICE: You can hear the young officer saying that, "He has my gun. He has my gun." He
says that several times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He has a lot of mental issues. He is 98 percent and the people down here has mental issues. There is not enough
people with the politicians and stuff like that to help these people. It is like a melting pot, but everybody that needs help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Anahita Sedaghatfar, attorney at Anahitalive.com, Karamo Brown, social worker; Evy Poumpouras, Security Expert, former
special agent secret service. Evy, protesters are blaming the police for this incident. My sense is that they should be blaming politicians and our
system for the lack of funds and resources for mental health patients.
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT/FMR. SPECIAL AGENT SECRET SERVICE: Yes, I agree with you, Dr. Drew. I think these are two different things. I know
people are protesting. We have had a lot of shootings this year that had had a negative effects on our society. But, this specific situation, I
feel very different.
We are talking about someone who is going for a police officer`s weapon. We are talking about someone who actually has his hands on the police
officer`s weapon. I want to make note. Dr. Drew, do you know that it can take somebody 2.5 seconds to actually take a weapon out of a holster and
fire one round at someone? 2.5 seconds.
PINSKY: And, Evy, as I understand it, this gun had been sort of fired, right? There was a bullet dislodged into the chamber as though somebody
attempted to fire it in the holster? Is that correct?
POUMPOURAS: It is called a pseudo stovepipe. So, pseudo stovepipe is when the bullet actually comes out in the ejection port. Actually, when you
shoot, a bullet comes out and it is ejected.
Here in this case, because the weapon had been fought over, it is in the holster; you are trained as an officer go to your weapon and hold it down,
so that nobody can take it out.
You can see the officer trying to hold it in place with the other individual trying to take it out. What happens is as you are trying to
pull it out, it shifts the slide, causes the chamber to come out -- the round to come out.
And then also the other thing is the magazine actually was not seeded properly, which also shows possibly a struggle for the weapon because there
is a button there that you can push.
PINSKY: And, again, am I getting this right, three different officers pulled their guns out and shot this guy? Does not that tell us something
that they really were all concerned for their lives?
POUMPOURAS: Of course they are concerned for their life because if you only have 2.5 seconds from the time that person pulled that gun out to
shoot you, you got seconds to respond, less than that. And, so, they all - - I understand everyone is like, "Well, all three fired their shots."
But, they do not have time to say, "Hey, are you going to shoot or should I shoot?" Right? So, that is the issue. They all trained the same way and
they all respond the same way. The response is, "We are going to save our lives because this person is going to shoot."
PINSKY: I want to show you guys --
POUMPOURAS: Dr. Drew, I want to point --
PINSKY: Evy --
POUMPOURAS: I want to say one thing.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: If somebody is going for your gun -- if someone is going for your gun, they are not going for your gun so they can take it for you, so
they can clean it for you.
They are going for your gun because they are going to use it to shoot you and in all documented cases, where somebody has taken an officer`s gun over
80 percent of those cases, that individual used the gun to shoot the police officer.
PINSKY: All right. I want to show you guys what happened immediately after the shootings. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Back up (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, it appears that as one of the officers involved in the shooting was African-American and the crowd is yelling at him, insulting
him. Karamo, what is your reaction to this?
KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: It is disgusting to me because as I watched this, I work with mentally -- the chronically homeless people and a lot of
them have mental illnesses. And, so, when I saw this, for them to come at him and attack him, it was wrong.
At this particular time, what these officers did was right. This man was attacking them. He went aggressively and very erratically. Dr. Drew, we
talked about this. When you worked with mental health, you have to put your hands up but we are in a safe environment. We are in facilities --
PINSKY: A hospital.
BROWN: -- a hospital.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: We are not on the street. So, I cannot imagine what these police officers have to deal with and have to react in a second and to come at
this man just because he is African-American.
And, I understand as African-American, we have a lot of trauma in this country, around trusting police, but to come at someone who you clearly see
was only trying to do his job is wrong.
PINSKY: And Evy, I am saddened by this whole case. I mean, again, to me it seems like the system is so broken. We are putting cops in
responsibility positions to be mental health providers and people to protect themselves and protect the public. You cannot do all of these
things.
We have people who have chronic illnesses that should be in facilities. We have dismantled these facilities and we got to bring something back in that
houses people that really cannot care for themselves or become dangerous because of an illness. My question to Anahita is, are these officers going
to have any sort of legal problems as a result of this case?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do not think so, Dr. Drew. I mean you saw the video, I saw the video. It is a tragedy that this man
lost his life, but he is resisting arrest. He is fighting with the officers. He is being combative.
And, the police did try to taser him. I think three times and that did not work. So, as soon as you hear that officer saying, "He has got my gun. He
has got my gun." All bets are up, because it is either their lives or that man`s life. And, they do not have time to make a decision -- I mean it is
a split second decision, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, and I am getting --
SEDAGHATFAR: They are trained to shoot to kill.
PINSKY: -- I am really getting sort of sick of this case. This is not Ferguson. This is not Ferguson.
BROWN: Exactly.
PINSKY: This is -- you know, people are falling back on the aphorism, black lives matter and those sorts of slogans.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: And, the do and then the fact is this does remind us of that, but in a very different way than Ferguson. They matter from the standpoint of
getting the appropriate care and housing that they need.
And, these people have all been marginalized. They have been pushed aside. They have been ignored by society. And, these are people that society used
to take care. Other societies do take care of them. We have tragedies. We have people living on the street and they are not well. Yes, there is
criminality.
Evy, I know you are concerned about the criminal element in there and yes, some of them are ill and resort to criminality. Somo are criminals and we
should be sorting these things out. But to put it all on the legal system, put it all on the cops is a really unfair situation.
Next, we have a witness who recorded the shooting on his cell. He is here on his cell phone. And then later, did texting encouraged a suicidal teen
to kill himself? We will look at that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEGUN ODOULOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: They brought five cops to a guy that got tased twice and it did not affect him. He was still able to grab
a cops gun. What is scarier that the society at large or community knew that he was crazy. Just how scary, no one could assess.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No one knows.
ODUOLOWU: But crazy enough and strong enough to go through a taser twice, grab the gun from five, we believed trained cops in threat assessment,
maybe not mental health assessment --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
ODUOLOWU: But that is scary to me. The police and the public at large do not know how to deal with that.
PINSKY: And, I feel bad for the police. It is not their job. Their job is to neutralize danger.
BARNETT: I do not agree with that. I think now that we know there is a situation where a lot of the people that they are arresting have mental
illness issues, I think that there needs to be some parameters in place where they are taught how to deal with these scenarios.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is our little Facebook After Show. You can check that out on our website or at Facebook. I am back with Anahita and Karamo and Evy.
And to follow up on what Vanessa was saying there. They were trained. Apparently, a couple of these officers were veterans in that area. That is
what they were doing down in that vicinity.
They had an interest in that. They knew how to handle that. But, again, it is a different emphasis with the law enforcement. Their priority is
protection. Our priority in healthcare system, it would be de-escalating the patient, helping the patient get into a mental state that is less
violent.
And, we have techniques for doing that and we have structure for doing that. Pretty hard to do that out in the wilderness, out on the streets
like that and it is hard to do it when people are being aggressive. And, you are concerned about someone getting hurt.
We are, of course, talking about the homeless man that was shot by LAPD on Skid Row. Police say the man forcibly grabbed an officer`s gun before the
shooting. Witnesses now disagree. I have a witness on the phone, Anthony Blackburn. Anthony recorded this incident on his cell phone. Anthony can
you tell us what you saw? Did he go for the gun?
ANTHONY BLACKBURN, WITNESS ON THE LAPD SHOOTING ON SKID ROW: Well, I did not see him go for no gun, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: What did you see?
BLACKBURN: Well, I see him -- when I first seen the officers, I seen them tasing him the first time and he went into his tent. And, the officer
snatched their whole tent. The second time they tased him, he jumped up and that is when you see in the video, he was swinging erratically.
And, when he finally fell on the ground, they dropped him on the ground -- I did not see him reaching for no gun but after all that, one officer --
you can see one officer pulling him by his leg and the other officer was around and they were trying to handcuff him but then after that one
officer screams and said, "He is going for my gun." And, when he said that, that is when the officers backed up and started shooting and he got
hit five times.
PINSKY: Anthony, did you know this man? Had you ever seen him before?
BLACKBURN: I have seen him before because I used to work downtown Los Angeles.
PINSKY: And was he a fairly peaceful fellow? Was he ill, was he talking to himself, was he somebody that intimidated or scared people?
BLACKBURN: You know, I really just like in passing by, I really did not know him like that.
PINSKY: I see. Well, Anthony, we have a police-enhanced photograph. They say that it shows the suspect reaching for the officer`s gun. Can we look
at that, producers? Well, I do not know. We are looking at it, Anthony. You do not see it. It is hard for me to make sense of that.
But, they say it is somebody grabbing a gun there. I guess you can kind of see that. But, Anthony, thank you, thank you for joining us. I appreciate
it. I know you have been making the rounds and I appreciate you trying to help people make sense of this. I also want to show the viewers what the
police chief said about this incident. Take a look here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF POLICE BECK: I have reviewed the video and the audio and preliminarily, you can hear the young officer who is primarily engaged in
the confrontation saying that, "He has my gun. He has my gun." And, he says it several times. We feel great compassion in the LAPD for people who
live in conditions of homelessness and often mental illness with no treatment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is the issue here. Evy, you had a colleague that was involved in a shooting, is that right?
POUMPOURAS: Yes. So, I shared this story earlier with the producers. I had a colleague who is involved in a shooting and it was a justified
shooting. They were doing a -- they were executing a warrant as they entered the dwelling of the individual. He pulled out a weapon and they
fired shots and wounded the man.
The man lived. They gave him medical treatment right away. But what came after that, criminal charges were not filed but the individual who
survived, the suspect, took them through civil court and that took years and years and it smeared their names, their reputation, their finances,
everything.
And, I remember one evening sitting with my colleague while we were working and he looked at me, he said, "You know what, if I would have known all of
this would have happened to me and my family, maybe I should have been a little bit slower going for my gun. Maybe I should have just let him shoot
me, instead."
And, it stayed with me and it broke my heart. Because I am thinking he did his job. He did the right thing and yet look what is happening. He is
being punished for doing the right thing and he wishes that he would have been wounded rather than having done his job.
PINSKY: I understand that. And, Anahita, the legal system when it comes to people whose job is to care and to protect, if ain nywhere along the
course of duty somebody gets hurt, they have this massive liability. Is that appropriate?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. No. I do not think it is appropriate. And, I think Evy just explained why. It is getting to the point, sadly, where --
PINSKY: But it is in health care, it is in the police services, it is in mental health services. It is all over the place where people are not
going to want to help because the liability is too great.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. It is getting to the point where like I was saying, police officers are afraid to do their jobs. They are afraid of civil
liability. Now, they are afraid of even criminal charges.
But, let me tell you, Dr. Drew. I am so glad that these officers were wearing body cameras. Because this will not be another he said/she said
case like a lot of the other high profile shootings we have seen in the media, recently.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, I think that video -- those videos will tell the full story here.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think every police force should have mandatory body cameras for the officers.
PINSKY: It is a great point. And, according -- I want to show you some data here. In 2012, more than 356,000 inmates in this country have mental
illness. Karamo, this is the issue that you and I --
Our heads are spinning about constantly, which is, there are people out there -- forget the fact that we have sort of marginal mental health
services for people that know they need help, have some resources for help, there are people out here that are deep into mental illness that have no
resources and are ending up in the criminal justice system.
It is not just the treatment center of last resort, it is the only treatment center for people with these conditions. Do you have any
suggestions? Now, listen, as soon as I bring this up, Twitter lights up when people goes, "How are we going to pay for this?" You say, "Do not you
know this costs money?"
I do. I understand. And, I hope we can move funds from criminal and the penitentiary system to some sort of state hospital system or outpatient
system or something. Somebody is got to -- other societies solve this problem. Why cannot we?
BROWN: Yes. Well, Dr. Drew, you are 100 percent right. And, the only way we are going to solve this is as a community. And, when we protest, we are
not protesting for the wrong reasons. Everyone, as black man, black lives do matter but what these people should have done, they should have been
protesting about why not help individuals with mental help. Why not create reform. Why not create change. They are marching and protesting for the
wrong thing here and that is the issue.
PINSKY: I wonder if police have some ideas, some solutions for this. I am sure they want to get out from this. This is badly as you and I or all of
us would like to see people get the appropriate resource.
BROWN: I am sure they do, but when you have the public at large protesting, they have to focus their attention on this. These individuals
protesting should be going to their city officials, their city counselors, their governors --
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: -- and their mayors and saying, "Why not help?" And, the problem that I have is even when I was hearing Mr. Blackburn talk, who took this
video, he said that he walked by this man daily.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: Walk pass this man daily and that is the issue here.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: We walk pass homeless people as if they do not exist and if they are not important.
PINSKY: Karamo, you are on it. And, there is a certainly another even bigger layer to it that I have brought up many, many times, which is --
when I think here is that we do not like acknowledging that this organ, this organ has illnesses just like any other organ in our body.
This organ get sick and when this organ gets sick, it makes us behave funny and act funny in ways that we would rather pretend either, A. It is not
happening or B. That is somehow under somebody is willful control. We just be able to -- This organ has magical properties where we can override any
illness just through the acts of will.
No, we cannot. No, we cannot. There is such a thing as illness of this organ, the brain, and we should be treating it like any other condition.
We should not be walking past it. We should not be shunning it. We should not be pretending it is not happening. We should not be marginalizing it
and we should not be criminalizing all of it.
Next up, what started as a Facebook feud turned into a killing. The dead girl`s mother is here to comment.
And, later, tragedy or crime, is a text and the girl who sent it to blame for a young boy`s suicide? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This 14-year-old Alabama girl was shot and killed in a park. Police say the deadly shooting was the result of an
argument that started on Facebook.
High school freshman Kiera "Onna" Rice had allegedly been feuding with the group of girls since 6th grade. They reportedly agreed to meet in a
neighborhood park. Police say a scuffle there escalated and shots were fired. Two teenage boys have been charged with her murder. Police believe
one of them is dating a girl who fought with the victim.
(END VIDEO CLP)
PINSKY: Time now for "Seriously?" A story that would be hard to believe unless It were fact true and of course it is tragic. Joining us to
discuss, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Pop Trigger -- No. Samantha Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu! And Wendy Walsh, Clinical Psychologist, author of "30-Day
Love Detox."
And, to re-introduce my guest, Anahita is still with me. Sam is new and Wendy is new. Investigator say, 14-year-old Kiera "Onna" Rice was shot in
the heart. Witnesses reported that she was then run over by a car. Sam, what do we know about this victim?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU!: This is such a sad story, Dr. Drew. So, her friends and family members, they referred to her
affectionately as "Keke." Also, they said that she knew these group of girls and they had been arguing since the 6th grade. OK?
Keke`s mother told Albim-Online that the girls were jealous of her daughter`s beauty. According to family and friends, Keke was fedup of
being targeted by these groups of girls.
So, she agreed to the park that day because she was reportedly in hopes to end the bullying. That is what she wanted. The group of friends -- her
friends also described her, ironically and sadly, as the peacemaker.
PINSKY: It does not fit for me. Something is missing in this story. Sam, do you have any other sense of what is going on here? It does not all fit
together.
SCHACHER: OK. This is what -- to me, the mother had known about this for a week, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: As well as the cousins and the other family members. They had no --
PINSKY: So -- So -- wait, wait. They knew there was going to be a fight?
SCHACHER: They knew that there was going to be a fight. They knew that she was fighting online. And, I do not want to blame the parents here, but
let this be a teaching moment.
If you see that your daughter has had a fight for this amount of time, one stop at the Facebook, take down the Facebook account. If there is a
bullying or fight online. Take it to the police department. Call the police.
PINSKY: And, by the way -- you are right, if there are threats online -- this is, again, people are afraid to call the police when they need their
help.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: The mom told Alabama online that she was aware that the daughter planned the meeting with the rivals. Shared a text conversations she had
with the teen after learning she was at the park. We got an audio re- creation of that conversation.
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-CREATION)
ALICIA RICE, KIERA "ONNA" RICE`S MOM (audio re-enactment): She texted to me and said, "Mama, I am sorry. But I got to fight this girl and if it
over with." And, I said, "Keke, I am going to beat your (EXPLETIVE WORD) when I get home. If they do not kill you before I get there. I am going
to beat your (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(END AUDIO RE-CREATION)
PINSKY: Well, there we go. When kids are physically abused in the home, they are much more likely to be the object of physical abuse and to be
engaged in violence.
Anahita, I mean there it is. I do not know, what more evidence I need personally. You cannot beat kids` ass and expect them not to be aggressive
and violent outside of the home or run away from home. Those are the only two possibilities.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is so true, Dr. Drew. Remember, this girl is 14 years old and I am not trying to blame the mother here. But, where is the
mother`s accountability in all of this? She knew that there was this feud going on, on Facebook.
Why did not you immediately shut down her accounts, get her off social media? The mother knew this fight was planned and instead she is begging
the daughter, "Please do not go. Please do not go."
No. You lock your daughter in the house. Do whatever you have to do to prevent her from going to that fight. It seems to me this was not really a
mother/daughter relationship. I think the mother was trying to be her daughter`s friend instead of an authority figure.
PINSKY: There is a little bit of that feeling, but it is authoritarian, Wendy, parenting is not -- it is just a parenting that includes a violence.
You do not beg a child with violence - "Come back here. I am going to kill you."
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. This was putting this child in a terrible, terrible bind.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: It is like, "Go and you are in trouble. Come home and you are in trouble." And, here she went out as the peacemaker. But, Dr. Drew, I want
to say one thing about social media. People need to understand that when you are looking at just digital text, you can project almost any emotion,
any tone, any feeling you want on to that text.
So, it is very important that we teach our young children and we teach our teenagers to have real conversations because, I am sure these girls -- yes,
they have been feuding since 6th grade, but maybe because they were not given the tools to figure out how to have repair in their relationship and
social media just blows it up.
PINSKY: She goes to a park at night. Somebody has to straighten me up here. Hope on Twitter. She says, "Honestly, most black people will see
that as a false threat. She is saying that the mom did not really mean that she would beat the child, which if that is true, then I am sorry for
misinterpreting with the mom.
And, I do not want the mother to -- believe me, this mother is suffering enough. She has lost her daughter. I do not mean to make another victim
here, but I do want other people to learn that when there is physical -- it is domestic violence, that is what it is. And, it does not work as a
parenting style. It just does not work.
But, Wendy, I think you are absolutely right. I mean there is so many elements in here at play that, again, I cannot put the piece together.
Yes, the Facebook, yes the social medial is really a significant issue but she goes to the park in the night to meet a couple of dudes who shoot her?
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: No, Sam? No?
SCHACHER: It was two groups of people. So, it was not just her meeting another group that wanted to get into a fight with her. Both of these
groups were going to fight, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: So, this was a gang? Is this a gang battle?
SCHACHER: I do not know if this is a gang battle.
PINSKY: It feels gangish to me.
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, this happens. I remember this happening in high school and junior high --
PINSKY: What?
SCHACHER: -- where groups of people would go and fight and guess what? People show up and watch.
PINSKY: Did you get involved in that?
SCHACHER: I had been a fights during my child and I watched. It is disgusting.
PINBSKY: Did you win in the middle of one.
SCHACHER: No. I got in a fight in fourth grade and that was the last fight that I got in.
PINSKY: And, so you are saying that this girl who has been feuding online and as Wendy says that is where the source of this all is, then they go put
it out into the real space and people show up --
SCHACHER: These people show up. The whole school knew about this.
PINSKY: And, the guys that showed up here just happened to be spectators with guns?
SCHACHER: I think that they were going to join in. It was two groups of people that were going to fight and they were going to film it, Dr. Drew,
and they were also planning to put it on social media.
PINSKY: It feels like a gang.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, I need to throw in a little human mating strategy there. OK. Imagine this, one of the teenage boy is the boyfriend of the rival
girl.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
WALSH: Right? So, he got to impress his girlfriend.
PINSKY: Right.
WALSH: At the same time, the girl who was starting the fight, not the victim, was feeling threatened because apparently the victim was prettier
and a cheerleader and all that stuff. So, you have female-to-female competition and. You have a guy competing for this girl and so -- hey, he
just tries to impress her in a tragic way.
PINSKY: If it was the turn of the century, the 19th century -- the 20th century and people engaged in fist -- putting up their dukes. That sounds
very romantic but, Anahita, these are people with guns who shot this kid in the chest and ran her own with the vehicle. This is profound, profound
violence, profound criminality.
SCHACHER: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is right. And, I do not even think we get to any other discussion. I mean we have to wonder why the parents were not involved.
Dr. Drew, she is a 14-year-old little girl. Her mother is negotiating with her via text message about her going to that fight, showing up at that
park. I mean why did not she drive over there, call the police, take some action and then you do not have to worry about teens showing up with guns.
You do not even get there.
PINSKY: And, by the way, let us have a bit of sympathy. I agree with you, Anahita, but being a single mom with a 14-year-old girl, you can imagine
how stressful that is.
We are going to get more on the suspect and their background. They do have criminal histories. Shocking. And, later, is encouraging someone to
commit suicide a crime? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST OF "WEEKEND EXPRESS" PROGRAM: Two Alabama teens are accused of killing a 14-year-old girl. All of it because of an argument
that started on Facebook.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND DAVIS, KIERA`S FRIEND: She was a good person. She never had any trouble. She was never in anything. She was a good person. She liked to
help people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERRY: Police say a group of teenage girls agreed to meet at a park to fight. During the fight, two teenage boys pulled out guns and started
shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN HENDERSON, BIRMINGHAM PASTOR AND PRESIDENT OF THE "STOP THE VIOLENCE MOVEMENT": We are going to reach these daddies. We are going to reach
these mothers and we are going to tell them, this is senseless. Where are they getting the guns from? Where are they learning to be so violent at a
young age?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Sam and Wendy. A Facebook feud amongst a group of teenage girls spilled into a neighborhood park, allegedly, where a 14-
year-old Kiera "Onna" was shot in the heart and killed in then ran over by a car.
Wendy, do you think -- again, I keep trying to understand why the boys pulled out the guns and, you know, why they have to -- you know what I
mean? There are two grown -- not grown, but two large males and one little 14-year-old girl. Why the guns? Why the guns?
WALSH: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, if this thing started on Facebook, it is almost like everybody feels invested because they are watching the argument
publicly.
PINSKY: It is a mob.
WALSH: It becomes a mob mentality. They are taking sides. It is like a sporting match to them in some way. It is not even real. And, do not get
me going about how I think that video games have desensitized kids, they are using guns, et cetera.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: I think it was a mob -- it was two mobs that jumped from Facebook into the park.
PINSKY: I kind of go with that, Wendy, because rather than being -- I keep thinking, is this a gang? But maybe it was a mob that started going on
Facebook and spilled into the park. Sam, do you know something that we do not know?
SCHACHER: Well, these two -- the two guys, the suspects, Dr. Drew, they are criminals. OK? They have a history. They are suspects in other
burglaries, both f them have been shot at before, both of them have been shot before. So, this is not just like a random kind of like, like the
outsiders, the movies.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: No. These two guys are criminals.
PINSKY: And, one of them is an adult. One is 19, right?
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: One is 17. They have both been arrested and charged with murder, first and second-degree assault. Authorities say they have been previously
shot -- Each of them have had gunshot wounds.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Both are involved in other crimes, including robbery. Do you know anything else, Sam?
SCHACHER: I think you have touched on it all. These are not good people. This is not the best group of people. This is not a typical fight.
PINSKY: But that is not -- Anahita, maybe you understand this. I just do not, which is the girls are fighting, you know? These are mid-adolescence
girls. They are 14, 15 year olds. All of a sudden some adult male show up with guns.
SEDAGHATFAR: Mob mentality. I agree with what Wendy was saying. I think it is mob mentality. And, I think it is yet, again, another example of how
Facebook and YouTube and Twitter actually fueled bad behavior in young teens like that because the purpose of this, part of it was to be able to
videotape the fight, upload it on to YouTube, Facebook, get the likes, get the shares.
SCHACHER: It is terrible.
SEDAGHATFAR: Possibly having videos go viral.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew.
PINSK: You think it was all about that. Oh, my God.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, OK --
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Wait.
SCHACHER: But, hold on, Anahita --
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Wait, I will let you talk, Sam, in a second. But, there is somebody that is telling me I am going to read this tweet. You
are alongside of it, Sam. So, put Sam`s face there and let her react to it.
"Dr., you are the most naive human on the planet. You are shocked that kids arrange fights and kids show up to watch. Wake up, please." No, Sam,
that is not the part I am reacting to you.
SCHACHER: OK.
PINSKY: But, you like when people call me the most naive person on the planet. So, I appreciate that.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: OK. I get that all the time.
SEDAGHAFAR: I also get that word too.
SCHACHER: Misery enjoys company.
PINSKY: And, no one gets it more than Anahita. I understand.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Yes.
PINSKY: Good to be in the same school with you, guys.
SEDAGHATFAR: I feel you Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: But, it is not me being naive, it is -- I am trying to understand why some adult males would show up with guns when a couple of teenage girls
are going to scrap.
SCHACHER: Well, you have to think that, you know, the other teen girl, her boyfriend was a few years older than her. So, he decided to come and help
out with the fight and he also was a criminal. So, it does not add anything good to the mix.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
SCHACHE : But, Dr. Drew, we cannot blame Facebook. Yes, it can promote violence, it can promote bullying, but at the same time it can also promote
connectivity and friendship.
PINSKY: I know. I understand.
SCHACHER: That is why parents have to educate their youth and they have to watch Facebook.
PINSKY: And that they have to watch Facebook.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: They have to police Facebook. But, Wendy, you would say that in addition to it being a tool for good, it has this mob potential.
WALSH: Well, and it also -- you know the research is pretty clear especially with teenage girls. The more Facebook usage, the more it is
link to depression. Now, whether there is causality there, we are not sure. Maybe depressed girls go to Facebook more often, trying to feel
better.
But, Facebook has like all the other social media, Twitter, Instagram, et cetera, you have to learn etiquette and you have to learn it early. And,
you have to be holding your children`s hands through this. The problem is, so many parents do not have the skills to deal with this.
PINSKY: Or they are too busy or they are trying to make ends meet or they are single parents. But, you know what I think, ultimately, though, there
is more to be told about this story.
Because the magnitude of the violence here, shooting a 14-year-old in the chest and running her over with a car, that is either somebody who is so
far gone. Their character pathologist is so far gone. There is criminology is so intense that this was just the wrong person after they
show up in this particular fight, or there is more to be told.
All of what we are saying is true. Violence in the home gets to be violence outside, so please do not allow your kids to be exposed in
domestic violence. When they are, the girls become warriors and become attracted to people in circumstances of the violent nature and the men
become warriors.
Next up, a woman charged in the death of a friend after he kills himself. She is encouraging someone to commit suicide. We will look into that. We
are on Instagram.
Check out our behind the scenes photos and my re-enactment of SNL`s "Skip the Californians today." Thank you Kate for taking the picture of me while
I explaining how I got to work. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A teenager could spend 20 years in prison because of her friend is suicide. Prosecutors say Michelle Carter
encouraged Conrad Roy to follow through with his suicide attempt even when he had second thoughts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. GREGG MILIOTE, BRISTOL COUNTY DITRICT ATTORNEY`S OFFICE: Instead of attempting to assist him or notify a school official or counselor or family
member or anyone, Ms. Carter is alleged to have strongly influenced his decision to take his own life.
(END VIDEO CLIP
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: After his death, Carter honored her friend with a fund raiser for suicide prevention but could she have done more to
save him. And, can she be held accountable for his decision? Her lawyer says this is a tragedy but not a crime.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Time for "WTF," the most shocking story of the night dominating social media. Joining me to discuss, Tiffany Smith, actress, host; Erica
America, psychotherapist and radio host and Karamo Brown back with me.
Did Michelle Carter`s text messages influence, persuade Conrad Roy to finish his suicide, to complete it? Police say Conrad was inside his truck
with a generator and creating all of that carbon monoxide attempting to poison himself when he started thinking about his family. He thought
better of it. He got out.
He texted Michelle, then police say she responded with a message, "Get back in." Now, the question before us is, should she be held responsible for
his death? She is charged with involuntary manslaughter. Erica, what do you say?
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/ RADIO HOST: Well, this is just all sorts of crazy. I mean, obviously, the natural reaction would be to call 91, to
call a parent, but Something is very off here. So, my question is what is the mental status of this young girl? What is going on with this young
girl?
PINSKY: Right. Or is there information missing or is not what it seems to be, because it is all kind of crazy.
AMERICA: Yes. What kind of relationship did she have with this young man and what was the psychological payoff that she got from getting him to do
this? Kind of almost like a Munchausen.
PINSKY: It is funny you would say that. Erica, that is exactly what I thought. Sort of a Munchausen by proxy.
AMERICA: Yes. Instead of getting her friend sick, she gets her friend to die and she gets this weird attention.
PINSKY: It is so interesting --
AMERICA: She gets money, she gets to do --
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: It is very tricky. It is very bizarre.
PINSKY: It is tricky and --
AMERICA: I would say there is a personality disorder.
PINSKY: Maybe.
AMERICA: Something is very odd. Yes.
PINSKY: If it is what it seems to be, it is funny that you came to that thought, too. I had the exact same thought that is sort of felt like a
Munchausen by proxy type situation, where people will act out on another person and make them sick or hurt them in order to get some payoff for
themselves.
AMERICA: Right. Right.
PINSKY: Tiffany, have you ever heard of anything like this?
TIFFANY SMITH, ACTRESS/HOST: I have, but I think that is really taking this to an extreme that does not fit this for me.
PINSKY: OK.
SMITH: We are only getting bits and pieces of these text messages.
PINSKY: All right.
SMITH: And, I know from conversations with friends, you do not know the tone that it is coming through via text. And, just looking at the story, I
mean we have heard from friends now saying that, "She was a drama queen" and you are like, "OK." So, look at that. Imagine this guy has been
having this conversation with her for a while, I am depressed, this is going on.
PINSKY: And that may be satisfying to her in some way. She maybe gratified by hearing about his misery, and somehow, you know, sort of
aroused her. I do not mean in a sexual way, but aroused her in sort of it made her feel like engaged and dramatic, and good about herself.
SMITH: But, how many times have you had somebody dramatically repeat something and finally, you are just like, "Just do it." You know?
PINSKY: I wondered that myself, if we missed the sort of lead-up where she is like, "I have heard enough of this. Get out of here. Go do whatever
you are going to try to do. I cannot try to make you stop anymore." Sort of out of exasperation.
The lawyer of this girl says, quote, "A young man made his own decision in his life on his own terms. It was in fact his volunteer decision. He had
previously attempted suicide and made his own conscious decision to take his own life. His death was not caused by Michelle Carter. This is a
tragedy, but is not a crime."
The question, though still -- there is a couple things that -- Karamo, that begs yet. Did her final push there really substantively contribute to his
demise and finally it is a reminder that when everybody says -- depression is potentially a fatal illness.
We got to educate -- once again, we started tonight talking about mental illness. We are stopping, we are ending the show tonight talking about
mental illness. And, we have got to educate young people about how serious it is, how to identify it and Karamo, how to refer it.
BROWN: I agree with you, Dr. Drew. The thing is that this young lady is 17 years old and I do not believe she had the mental maturity to be able to
realize if this young man was telling the truth or was actually going to commit suicide. I do not think that she was at a place for that.
Of course, there is a lot of facts that are missing in the story, but I think what you hit on is most important here. Instead of this -- them
trying to charge this young lady with involuntary manslaughter and saying that she has something to do with this, how about using this as a teaching
tool to other kids out there, that if someone is doing this, that you need to reach out to a parent, to a counselor, to 911. Help children to grow,
so that they can understand how to deal with this.
PINSKY: That is right.
BROWN: Instead of victimizing one so that other children would say, "You know what? I do not want to get involved."
PINSKY: And tying up the legal system again. Speaking of the parents, we are going to hear from Michelle`s parents. As you can imagine, they have a
different take on what happened. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Can a teenager be punished for not stopping her friend`s suicide? Prosecutors say Michelle Carter`s text messages
actually encouraged Conrad Roy to take his own life but should she be responsible for his decision?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANICE ROY, CONRAD ROY`S MOM: If she really loved him as she said she did, why did not she try to persuade him not to?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Tiffany, Erica and Karamo. Now, Michelle and Conrad have exchanged thousands of text messages in the weeks leading up to the
young man`s death. The question Erica is, should she be punished for missing an opportunity to save someone else, especially a young person, who
may not have the sophistication understanding what she was dealing with?
AMERICA: Right. That is what going to say. I was going to leave that to the legal culpability, does the person have the right or does the person
have the ability to make someone do something to themselves or by omitting something, make them do something? That I feel like is tricky. That is
why I am not sure on this one, Dr. Drew, honestly.
PINSKY: Yes. Right. And, you have -- even if it were a Munchausen thing, you have to prove some sort of intent to harm and, you know, then if she
was sick with a Munchausen, how are we going to hold her accountable as a young person, -- Tiffany?
AMERICA: I mean it is still -- it is his decision to do what he did. You know, what I mean? Like she said what he said, but he still went for it
and did it. It was horrible, though. Of course it was horrible to do that and push him, you know, all along.
PINSKY: We think. We think.
AMERICA: Yes. So, that is why I think like I want to hear what Anahita would have to say about this.
PINSKY: All right. Michelle`s parents say, quote, "She is not the villain the media is portraying her to be. She a quiet, kind, sympathetic young
girl. She tried immensely to help Mr. Roy in his battle with depression. We know that once the facts are released, our daughter will be found
innocent." Tiffany, that is what you are saying is that there is more to be revealed.
SMITH: Yes. I just think that we are getting a piece of this story, you know? It sounds like depression is something that he had been dealing
with. So, I really want to hear what the family was dealing with. Because like what you said, this is a young girl who is in high school and she may
have been doing all that she thought she could do to help.
PINSKY: Right.
SMITH: And, I know, when I have conversations with friends, they shared things and they were like, "Please do not tell anybody this. I want to
share this with you. Please do not tell anybody that I am still feeling very depressed." So, we do not know if those conversations were happening
and she choice to keep it as a secret because she was being loyal to a friend.
PINSKY: I am going to ask you if you are comfortable, were you ever in a position where somebody said, "I am thinking about hurting myself, but do
not tell anybody?" Were you ever put in that position yourself when you are growing up?
SMITH: I mean I think in high school I had a lot of those situations where it was girlfriends with eating disorders where it was --
PINSKY: Yes.
SMITH: Where it was how do you decide how to share these with parents or do you keep this between us and I helped as much as I possibly can.
PINSKY: Well, let me -- it is a great example and I am certainly not pointing a finger at you, Tiffany, or any young people that maybe harboring
secrets like that, you are not helping them. It takes a team of trained professionals to help people with these conditions and it is not a 17, or a
16 or 15-year-old holding a secret that is going to be helpful. It is unhelpful.
It allows these things to progress. It is how people get really hurt. If you do not feel comfortable telling the parent, find somebody, an adult you
trust in the school. There is mental health services in every school, some helping professional there. Karamo, have you ever worked in a school?
BROWN: I have worked in school before.
PINSKY: How do you get kids to drop these idea of secretiveness?
BROWN: It is through education and is through teaching them -- showing them what are the negative effects of keeping these secrets and that is the
problem, because a lot of kids do not understand. We see nowadays in social media acts like snapchat. Kids want to see stuff and then go away.
They do not want to be a part of it.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: And, these are directly how they are relating to life. And, so a kid hearing that, "I am depressed," they do not understand, how to deal
with that. This young lady should not have to have dealt with that. The school should be talking to these other students about the fact that if you
have this, like you said, help them, refer them. Tell the secret.
PINSKY: I have lost Karamo. I do not know if his mic turned off, maybe just on my end, but we lost you, Karamo there. I agree with you. I do
think that, as Erica said, it is possibly a Munchausen-type syndrome, but it does not matter.
The fact is, this is a reminder that mental health is a potentially a serious life-threatening problem and educating young people about it is
critical. DVR us then you can watch us any time. "The Social Life" with Ali Nejad is up next. It is excellent. I recommend it. Stay with it. I
think you like it and it starts right now.
END
