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Dr. Drew

Deliberating Jodi Arias`s Fate: Should She Live or Die?; Baby Eats Heroin, Almost Dies; Bobbi Kristina Brown Turns 22

Aired March 04, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, will Jodi Arias live or die? The jury is wrestling with the decision. Plus,

Bobbi Kristina Brown turns 22 today. Is her family any closer to a decision about her future?

Let us get started with the most tweeted story of the night, Jodi Arias. She murdered Travis Alexander, stabbed 29 times, slid his throat, shut him

in the head. The question now before the jury, should she live or die? Jurors in the second death penalty trial have been deliberating her faith

for about 26-1/2 hours. Here is a look at some of the trial highlights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDERING TRAVIS ALEXANDER: No jury is going to convict me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?

ARIAS: Because I am innocent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATTORNEY KIRK NURMI, JODI ARIAS` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: did you kill Travis Alexander on June 4, 2008?

ARIAS: Yes, I did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. JUAN MARTINEZ, CRIMINAL PROSECUTOR ON JODI ARIAS TRIAL: Ma`am were you crying when you were shooting him?

ARIAS: I do not remember.

ATTY. MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

ARIAS: I do not remember.

ATTY. MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat, were you crying then?

ARIAS: I do not know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARIAS: There have been a few times I have been bold enough to pull you onto the bed and just start. Oh my gosh.

Remember that time I came to visit you when I was still living in California, and I fell asleep on your chair next to your bed? And you

like, woke me up by pulling my pants off and totally (EXPLETIVE WORD) my (EXPLETIVE WORD)?

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, JODI ARIAS` BOYFRIEND: Yes. You got to admit though, there is not many guys who would do that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining me Anneelise Goetz, attorney; Sam Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu.com, Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com. And on the phone, I have CNN

Correspondent, Jean Casarez. Jean, what does Jodi`s life look like if she becomes a death row inmate as oppose to someone who spends her life in

prison?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Drew, I think one word to summarize it is a (INAUDIBLE). She will have her own cell and it is 12 x 7. She can

have no contact with the other inmates. Her meals will be brought to her room. She can have non-contact visits.

But, occasionally, not very often. She can have two phone calls a week. Only ten minutes at a time. And, she can have exercise three times a week,

two hours a day, but once again, she is all alone. There are no other inmates near her.

PINSKY: And, with life in prison, she has more of contact with other inmates at least. Correct?

CASAREZ: Yes. And, she can work her way up to that with life in prison, because you have an orientation. They do a lot of assessment. And,

originally, you are alone but then there is a step process you can go through. You can even work your way to general population as a life

inmate. So, there is a lot more that you can look forward to, not much when you are on death row.

PINSKY: Thank you, Jean. I want to show the audience a look at the cell, Jean was referring to. Jodi will live there really regardless of the

sentence at least to begin with. It is inside the Maximum Security Unit at Arizona`s Perryville Prison.

Staff has reportedly -- interestingly, been warned -- there it is -- to keep a, quote, "Professional distance from her because they are concerned

about the potential of her being manipulative." Sam, is that surprising to you?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF POP TRIGGER": Not surprising at all, Dr. Drew. She is so manipulative. We watched it during that trial. I mean, she is

disgusting. OK? Does her crime deserved the death penalty? 100 percent.

I do not think I could ever sentence to death, but listen, she was calculated. She was manipulative. She went to Arizona with her hair dyed.

She made sure she rented that car that was not red.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: She destroyed the evidence and then on top of all that, she has the audacity to malign Travis Alexander? She is disgusting -- and murdered

him three times, only.

PINSKY: I know. And, I think, though, Sam, the same thing you mentioned is what the jury is struggling with is, can they actually subject somebody

to the death penalty? Now, let us remind ourselves, she denied killing Travis. Then she confessed.

She said she wanted to die, but then -- basically, she says what suits her needs in the moment. So, Anneelise, do you agree with me that they are

struggling with the death penalty and the fact it is taking so long suggested maybe they are thinking very seriously about it?

ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Yes, Dr. Drew, I do agree that they are struggling with it. And, I think that as more hours tick by, people are

becoming more and more entrenched in their believes and their opinion. And, I think Sam hit the nail on the head when she said, she should be put

to death, but I could not do it.

PINSKY: Right. I agree.

GOETZ: And, that is what you have to remember. It is unlike Jodi arias, you have 12 people that while legally they could put her to death, morally

they might have a very difficult time doing that. And, especially, Dr. Drew, when you consider the fact that if you have a couple -- a few people

that are saying, "No, I do not want the death penalty.

And, people are trying to push them over to their side, as more time ticks by, those jurors start to feel like, it is on them. So, that decision to

kill someone or not kill someone is lying on those few jurors that maybe are the holdout. And, as that continues, they become less and less likely

to flip over.

SCHACHER: Yes, but Dr. Drew, why are they on jury then? I would not imagine when she selected this jury, they are not going to select people

that are wishy washy like me that clearly are not for capital punishment.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: But it is a big decision.

SCHACHER: I know, but --

BARNETT: You do not go into it lightly. And, at the end of the day, who are we to decide if someone gets to die? That does not make us better than

her going off killing Travis. It should not have never be on the table.

PINSKY: But, I think Sam`s point is, Vanessa, that you would not have gotten on the jury with statements like that.

SCHACHER: Exactly.

PINSKY: But, be that as it may, what you are doing, you guys, is you are reflecting upon feelings and moral doubts that anyone is going to have,

even somebody who says, "Yes, I can put this woman to death." When you actually -- your hand is held to the fire. It is a harder thing to do,

Anneelise, is it is not?

GOETZ: That is exactly what is going on. So, it is very easy, especially for us, Monday morning quarterback this and say --

PINSKY: Right.

GOETZ: -- "Well, obviously, she should have the death penalty. Look at what she did."

PINSKY: But you are asked to do it. -- Yes.

GOETZ: But, also keep in mind that the defense attorney is doing a great job of bringing in mitigating factors -- better mitigating factors than we

saw in the last trial.

PINSKY: Yes.

GOETZ: And, those might be resonating with this jury pool.

PINSKY: Well, but enough -- there are enough clearly, though, in the jury pool that want to put her to death that this thing is getting stalemated.

Is there a way this becomes a stalemated jury, Anneelise?

GOETZ: Absolutely. I mean if they cannot reach a decision --

PINSKY: Again?

GOETZ: If they cannot reach a decision, then it is done. And, then the death penalty is off the table.

PINSKY: What is that, Sam?

BARNETT: It should be.

GOETZ: You need -- You need 12. You need 12 --

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: So, this is it? If it stalemates here, then that is the end of the death penalty, is that right?

SCHACHER: Yes. But, then guess what, Dr. Drew? Yes, that that is the end of the death penalty, but that it is not only life in prison. The judge

could say that she gets 25 years.

PINSKY: Oh.

SCHACHER: Can you imagine if she only gets 25 years for murdering Travis Alexander as cruelly as she did?

PINSKY: Yes. I am going to make a prediction, Sam. Here is what I think. I think she will get life in prison. I think everyone will be very upset

about it. I think people do believe that she should get the death penalty after all she executed her boyfriend multiple times as Sam said.

I find it fascinating that prison staff is so concerned about the depth of her pathology that they are advising staff to stay away from her for fear

that she will manipulate people, professional staff into some sort of bizarre web of hers.

And, reminder, the tapes will become available of this trial. And, we will look at them and we will share them with you if there is anything of real

note there. And, of course, we also will be on top of the decision when it comes down.

Next up, a terribly disturbing story of a 9-month-old who eats heroin and almost dies because the mother`s boyfriend leaves the heroin lying around

the house. And, I say good, good. And, I will explain why.

And, later, today is Bobbi Kristina Brown`s 22nd birthday. I will tell you what Nick Gordon is saying about it after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 9-month-old boy ingests a near fatal dose of heroin. Police say he found it in the home his mother, Tara Bradbury,

shared with her boyfriend, Mark Tomat.

The infant was unresponsive when paramedics arrived. They rushed him to the hospital where he was treated for an overdose. Bradbury and Tomat

initially denied knowing anything.

But, investigators uncovered deleted text messages that proved, otherwise. Bradbury, who was once charged with child endangerment, is under supervised

probation. She has given birth to a second baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It is time for "WTF," the most shocking story of the night dominating social media. Joining me to discuss Anneelise Goetz, Judy Ho,

Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University; Vanessa Barnett is still with me.

The attorney for Tara Bradbury, this is the woman you just saw there, says the child that overdosed on heroin is now perfectly fine, healthy and

happy. In fact, it is hard to die from a heroin overdose when you orally ingest it.

She just had another baby and was in a treatment program during the pregnancy. Of course, being in a structured environment helped her ensure

she would not do anymore drugs, do heroin and also to protect the baby as well as her. Anneelise, my question -- well, no, forget it.

Let me just say what I want to say, which is I think when this child grows up, these parents should get this child a medal, have a parade for the

child. This child saved not only his own life because of these parents` severe drug addiction, they would have been neglectful, he saved their

lives. I am not saying children should go around eating heroin.

BARNETT: Well, that is what it sounds like.

PINSKY: But, Vanessa, I am not saying it. You go ahead and have that me about that, but I am not saying kids should heroin. I am saying the fact

that this kid ate heroin saved at least three lives.

BARNETT: And, I think that is so reckless. This child almost died.

PINSKY: Yes, he did. Yes, he did, but he did not.

BARNETT: It is not up to this child to save his family.

PINSKY: Well, listen. Not only that, Vanessa --

BARNETT: There is no but -- there is not but here.

PINSKY: I am not saying the children should go eat heroin or the children are responsible for the parents` drug addiction. I am saying, when you

look at this, go, "Oh, my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Of course, it is oh, my God. But, there is a flip side, is that the parents got the message

because of their endangerment of this child --

BARNETT: We do not know that. They --

PINSKY: It is still outrageous that the child ate heroin --

BARNETT: They relapsed --

PINSKY: -- that the parents went into treatment immediately.

BARNETT: Addicts relapse all the time. This child is not safe. He should not be with these parents. We do not know if we can trust these parents.

Heroin this should not even be in the house in the first place. There should not even be a story.

PINSKY: Yes. Of course.

BARNETT: These people are not parents right now.

PINSKY: No. Wait, are you suggesting I am saying heroin should be in everybody`s house and they are eating heroin is a good idea.

(LAUGHING)

BAR NETT: Well, you are saying that we should throw this baby a parade.

PINSKY: I am saying. I understand --

BARNETT: No. The parents` job is to not have heroin in the house, not let their child ingest it and not be given medals and parades, because now they

are in addiction treatment facilities. And, we know that there is a high percentage of them that will relapse. They can kill this child.

PINSKY: There is a high percentage, but I will tell you what. I have treated lots and lots of opiate and heroin addicts. And, the ones that

endanger their children, particularly women, Anneelise, the women when the kids are taken away, when the kids are endangered, that is when they get

the message.

The men often have to nearly lose their life. But the women, when the children are almost harmed, Anneelise, that is when they get the message.

So, my question to you, should she get jail or treatment? I say treatment.

GOETZ: She absolutely should be getting treatment and not jail. The justice system worked properly in this case, because what happened is as

opposed to just throwing her in jail, which what results in that?

We have the kid does not have his mother anymore. She probably comes out more addicted as opposed to less addicted. And then -- what will happen

more likely is that she will recommit. She actually has not been rehabilitated at all and she is still a drug addict.

PINSKY: Well, now, do you think that the courts are going to come after her, though? This woman is now working hard in treatment. She is in a

long-term treatment. She has had another child.

I mean imagine the stress she is under having almost murdered -- been a hand in the death of her first child. And, now she got another child.

This woman needs long-term treatment.

If they put her in prison this thing -- I am going to go to Judy. Judy, they put her in prison, this will derail the thing entirely. She needs

long term - and the husband as well, structured treatment. Separate from one another.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, because she has multiple children now, what is going to happen to those

children if she was to go to prison route and come out of prison?

PINSKY: Right.

HO: Right?

PINSKY: That is right.

HO: And, what is going to happen to them when she is in prison.

BARNETT: No.

HO: That attachment is going to be completely broken.

PINSKY: Absolutely.

GOETZ: That is right.

PINSKY: What, Vanessa? Come on now.

BARNETT: Do you know what this is? It sounds like you are a product of media manipulation. Because if that mug shot had this girl looking crazy

with sores all over her face and looking like she was downtrodden and a baby killer, which she almost is --

PINSKY: I love it. I love it.

BARNETT: If she looked like that, we will be having a whole different story here. But, now we are blonde hair and blue eyes and she has little

class. And, we are like, "Let us rehabilitate her."

HO: Bring it on, Vanessa.

BARNETT: Let us bring her kids back.

HO: Vanessa, bring it on. I see people like this every day. And, these people deserve a chance. I work with professionals who are actually

addicted to heroin via the route of painkillers. OK?

PINSKY: Well, Judy, I am going to get to that in a second. As soon as we go across commercial break, I am going to tell our viewers how common this

is and how much they and their family are all at risk. It is insane what is happening.

You think heroin is a big deal? Heroin is no big deal right now, because we cutting off the painkillers and people are graduating -- I will tell you

about it after this. But, Vanessa, Vanessa -- oh, Vanessa, I think that is such a great point. I think you are a genius.

(LAUGHING)

BARNETT: Thank you.

PINSKY: I think there is a piece of it that here. It is not affecting me. But, I think anyone watching this would -- No, because I think you are

right. because there is a piece of this that is getting a sort of disproportionate attention now because of exactly what you are talking

about.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

PINSKY: I had not even thought about it. But, the fact that heroin is becoming something that young Caucasian and professionals as Judy says are

doing, suddenly it is a headline. It is not the African-Americans from the northern states. It is the middle class people from the southern -- from

the western states. Now it is an emergency.

BARNETT: Right. It is a whole different playing field.

PINSKY: I will say that is a well, well-placed point. A new study from the CDC examined heroin fatalities across U.S. show this shift. They tend

to be young -- the heroin users, young white, living in the Midwest and the West as opposed to 15 years ago when they was predominantly African-

American living in the northeast and in the west.

According to CDC, In year 2000, the highest death rate from heroin was in African-Americans age 45 to 64. In 2013, it is Caucasians age 18 to 44.

And, I am telling you, it is getting worse.

According to the national drug abuse, one in 15 people who take a prescription pain killer for nonmedical reasons, will try heroin within ten

years. And, I would expand that nonmedical reason to be a big broad category, including my back hurts.

Next up, we are going to talk about -- to a mother who knows about the tragic consequences of heroin use.

And, later, Bobbi Kristina Brown turns 22 today. She is over a month in a coma. How long, everybody, how long? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: A 9-month-old baby boy rushed to the E.R. after he eats mommy`s heroin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: 24-year-old Tara Bradbury was arrested after paramedics found Bradbury`s first child unresponsive. And, rushed him to

the hospital where he was treated for heroin overdose.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The baby has intense brain swelling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Authorities say the mother, Tara Bradbury, and her boyfriend initially denied knowing anything about what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What? The baby go out and score a hit of heroin on the corner? And, mommy is walking free?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN/HLN LEGAL EXPERT/CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mom is an addict. She is not necessarily a criminal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: She has had another baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: This is clearly a case of opiate addiction. It is opiate addiction. It is the scourge of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Anneelise, Judy and Vanessa, and I could not agree more strongly with Danny Cevallos there. Tara Bradbury, the woman we are

talking about, her boyfriend pleaded guilty to a felony charge of child endangerment after Tara`s infant son ingested a near fatal dose of heroin

by mouth.

Heroin is difficult to overdose with by mouth. This child having done this horrible thing. I am not denying it is a horrible thing, but this child

saved three lives, probably his being one of them and the parents.

They definitely would be -- this is a disease. Heroin addiction, you do not survive from. After 30, 40 years of age, you pretty much have had it.

You are going to die after that. And, it is a treatable condition. It is a difficult condition to treat.

And, I am going to tell you what. Judy, you will back me up on this. Heroin is up because oral painkillers are down. The problem is, we had a

spectacular increase -- like ridiculous increase in the use of oral opiates, painkillers.

Painkillers by mouth, heroin by vain, not very different. And, when you take somebody and you get them addicted to an oral pain medication and you

cut them off abruptly, where do they go, Judy? What do they do?

HO: Go get some heroin. It is not that hard.

PINSKY: Get some heroin. It is cheaper. It is available. It is out on the streets. As opposed to what we should be doing with these patients is

bring them in and going, "Oh my God! I had no idea."

HO: Right.

PINSKY: Thank you. Here is what doctors ought to do is bring the patient and go, "Look, I know we started with the hip surgery and I blinked and two

months had gone by. I refilled your painkillers, three or four times. I am so sorry. I did not mean to, but it looks like we have turned you into

an opiate addict. We need to get your treatments. It is going to take about six months or we can try replacement there if you want."

But, I think -- if it were me talking, "We try replacement. We try an abstinence base program." They are not doing that. They are going, "You

are a bad patient, Judy. You are a bad patient." Hold on. I want to get Judy`s comment. And, then, Vanessa, can have at me. "You are a bad

patient. Get out of here. You have gotten addicted to drugs. You keep refilling these painkillers."

HO: That is right. Not very many people like you Dr. Drew would actually think through this, use comprehensive pain management. They cut people

off. These individual sometimes try to go to other doctors, try to get on other oral opiates.

Does not work, then they go on the street. They get addicted to heroin. And they continue to work. They continue to do all the things in their

life until somebody finally catches them.

PINSKY: And, you can sit in judgment of addicts all you want, Anneelise, but one of the bright stories in the cannabis legalization in Colorado is

these patients are not going to heroin. They are going to hide those cannabis. They are smoking a lot of pot.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: And, that is actually -- that is a much preferable road to go down.

GOETZ: Well, you know, the win here in this situation is that she was put in drug court, right? So, she was forced into rehabilitation. You talk

about three lives. Dr. Drew, it is four, because she has now had a child herself.

PINSKY: Another one.

GOETZ: With this guy.

PINSKY: Yes.

GOETZ: And, so you look at it. And, this is a textbook example and I know that Vanessa is upset about it. But, this is a textbook example of someone

that can be rehabilitate. Because we do see these pictures where she appears to be a loving mother. She made some bad decisions. But, right,

the child is with relatives. So, you have a support system.

PINSKY: Yes.

GOETZ: She was not intending to harm this child.

HO: Right.

GOETZ: There is no evidence that she was actually being malicious or being a bad parent.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

GOETZ: You know, people leave household cleaners that kids can grab.

PINSKY: Hey, listen. Not only that --

GOETZ: And, I know it is heroin and not household cleaners --

HO: This is different.

GOETZ: It was accidental. It was the boyfriend`s. It was not hers.

PINSKY: Vanessa.

BARNETT: There is no proof that they have done this intentionally. I will agree with that.

PINSKY: Of course not. Of course not.

BARNETT: But, there is proof that they tried to cover it up and they lied about it.

PINSKY: Yes. That is true.

HO: Of course, they will.

PINSKY: That is true, but they are drug addicts. It is part of being a drug addict.

BARNETT: Yes. Exactly, which is why she does not need her kids right now. Which is why she needs to be punished, not just rehabilitated. She needs

to be punished.

HO: No.

PINSKY: All right. And, let me add another layer to this too, which is the reason many people -- if they go to opiates early -- and this woman

probably fits that category, there is usually a history of childhood trauma, often sexual abuse. And, that untreated would have interfered with

her ability to be a capable parent.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Now, that can be treated. It can be treated effectively and she can be more effective parent.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: I want to speak to somebody. Welcome to the program, Cheryl Stankov. Her son, George, was on the opiate painkillers, on the oral

medicine, got switched over to heroin, as is happening today with unbelievable frequency. And, Cheryl -- Cheryl, I am so sorry about this

story, but I am glad you are here to maybe save another life.

CHERYL STANKOV, SON`S PILL ADDICTION LED TO HEROIN: Thank you, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: How did heroin kill your son?

STANKOV: Oh geez! My son ended up in a relapse in Times Square Subway. And, he had heroin in his system along with some Xanax. And, they believe

that he fell forward into times Square in a heroin nod. And, he was electrocuted by the third rail.

PINSKY: And, we are looking at pictures of your son. He looks like a lovely young man. Opiate addiction can affect anyone. He started with

painkillers, did he not?

STANKOV: Yes, he did. He had two herniated discs. He used to extreme bike. He had hurt himself.

PINSKY: But, Cheryl, I got to interrupt you and just say, I have two herniated discs. I got a pillow behind my back right now. I would never

take an opiate. Do not take an opiate for back pain. If you need it for a week or something, fine and then that is it.

You can end up like all these cases we are talking about if you stay on it longer than a week, especially if you have any family heritage of

alcoholism or addiction. And, then Cheryl, once this thing develops, I am sure your son experienced multiple near death experiences. I am sure you

tried everything. Tell us how that went down.

STANKOV: It was four years within from 20 to 24, you know, he died. So, it was two years of prescription opiates and two years with heroin. The

last year I believe he started shooting, and it killed him within four years.

We tried four different outpatient and inpatient programs. Not long enough time. I totally agree with you, they need to be in for at least six

months. I wish they would make it mandatory.

PINSKY: Yes.

STANKOV: I even had to have my son we tried four different outpatient and inpatient programs. Not long enough time. I totally agree with you, they

need to be in for at least six months. I wish they would make it mandatory.

PINSKY: Yes.

STANKOV: I even had to have my son locked up in prison.

PINSKY: I bet that helped more than anything.

STANKOV: Yes, it did. At that point in time, yes. I needed to shut the addiction down.

PINSKY: Yes. Sometimes you can get them contained; however, you get it, they come to a little bit. And, there is a little more sane than when they

are under the influence of the drug. Cheryl, lastly, please tell me about the City of Angels.

STANKOV: City of Angels, we are an organization, non-profit, that helps those that get into -- that need rehab, intervention, recovery, whatever we

can do. We try to scholarship them. We need money. Everybody can help send us some. We need to get these kids the help they need.

PINSKY: Thank you, Cheryl. And, listen, here is what I think here is that people are making big news out of a study that says we are having a shift

in who is using heroin. I am telling you, this is not news, everybody.

This has been going on for years. It started with the oral opiates. People were able to get enough oral opiates to equivalently do the same

thing that they were doing with the heroin now. And, it still -- if somebody dies, they typically are not dying of the heroin. They are dying

of the combo -- the oral painkiller and a benzodiazepine like a Xanax or Klonopin .

You put that together, that is a deadly combination. Heroin death by overdose are relatively uncommon, as you hear even in this poor young man`s

case. It was a heroin nod that ended him on the subway tracks. It is a tragedy. It is a deadly condition. And, it is happening all over the

place.

Vanessa made a great point that because it is shifting into a population that seems to attract our attention, suddenly we are making more of it. I

say that is true. I think she is on to something there. It is always been a problem. It is time to get on top of this. It is ridiculous.

Next up, Nick Gordon says he wants to, quote, "Do myself in." We will take a little bit look at what that means. And, also, is it time for this

family to back off, Bobbi Kristina? I am going to speak to medical professionals that have been in this situation, including myself. We have

a lot to say. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: There are comas and then there are comas. All right, everybody?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Drew, I am getting tired of you trying to recruit me to your death panel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICCI GILBERT-DANIELS, R&B ARTIST: All due respect, Dr. Drew, I am one who believes in the power of people being able to heal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: This is not a miracle situation. The probability is zero. Not one in a million, zero.

BARNETT: That is exactly what a miracle is.

PINSKY: Zero. Not .00001 percent, zero percent that she will come back in a meaningful way.

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Some hope is better than none.

PINSKY: No. I get it.

ODUOLOWU: I understand that she may never come back to be fully what she was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: She is a fighter and she is getting better. I am sorry, but that is absolute nonsense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Time for our behavior bureau. Sam Schacher is back. Vanessa Barnett with me and Dr. Bill Lloyd, surgeon and pathologist joins us.

Thirty-three days in a coma. Today is tragically Bobbi Kristina`s birthday.

Family posted this message on Whitney Houston`s website, quote, "Today is Bobbi Kristina`s 22nd birthday. We ask you to continue to keep her in your

prayers as she is still fighting the battle of her life.

Dr. Lloyd, this is not a battle. This is not a fight. Even if she were fighting, she is so deeply affected by her seizuring and the medications

she has her on -- they have her on that no one could fight in that condition. Thirty-three days in a coma. When are we going to call this?

DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Well, we are going to say happy birthday to Bobbi Kristina and happy anniversary to the Quinlan family. It

was 1978 when Karen Ann Quinlan was finally allowed to die. She was in a coma for a much longer time. And that case went to the Supreme Court.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: Situation is now reversed. In this case, the family wants to support the child and allow her to stay alive. And, everybody else seems

to be ready to throw in the towel. But, guess what? If you want to disconnect the ventilator from her, you could be in trouble, Drew.

PINSKY: I am not saying disconnect the ventilator. I am saying -- listen, I walk into ICUs every day in my professional life. And, all I hear is

complaints from nursing staff, almost every ICU nurse I have ever met complains about this issue.

"Why will not the doctors stand up to the family? How long will this go on that these patients are allowed to suffer before we adopt the philosophy of

care that focuses on the comfort and the reality of this situation?"

Every ICU in every hospital I have walked in, people are distraught and overwrought with cases like this. It is not about hope, it is about the

proper management of the reality of the medical circumstance. And, that is what I am concerned about here. There seems to be no realistic assessment

going on.

DR. LLOYD: The only reality that remains is disconnection from life support.

PINSKY: No, no.

DR. LLOYD: Stop. Tell me one other thing --

PINSKY: Move her out of the --

DR. LLOYD: Tell me one other thing you would do?

PINSKY: No. Move her out of the ICU.

(CROSSTALKS)

DR. LLOYD: One other thing you would do, other than support and comfort. She is at a world class medical center in Emory --

PINSKY: Yes, she has.

DR. LLOYD: She is getting all of that.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: So, what else is there besides disconnecting her?

PINSKY: There it is. Move her out of the ICU.

DR. LLOYD: Yes?

PINSKY: And to step down the level of intensity of services.

DR. LLOYD: Yes?

PINSKY: Kind of come what may understanding that the continued -- to continue keeping her in a suspended state and using all the available

resources that could be available for somebody that could come out of their coma who could recover from their ICU stay, we reserve those resources for

somebody -- Sam, I am going to go to you. Sam, your sister is a nurse. I am sure she complains to you about stuff like this all the time

SCHACHER: She was my independent researcher. If you remember, Dr. Drew, the other day, because I used to be alongside with Vanessa saying I cannot

imagine ever having to take any loved one off life support.

And, then I talked to my sister. And, she said, "No, Sam. Actually, that is really selfish of you because certain comas, they are not all the same.

And, in this case the probability is zero."

PINSKY: Zero. Zero.

SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, I cannot imagine having to make that decision --

PINSKY: Of course. Of course.

SCHACHER: -- unless you pulled me aside. I would need you to pull me aside.

PINSKY: Of course you would.

SCHACHER: I would need you.

PINSKY: That would be my job. That is the hospital`s job. Vanessa, that is what we have to do. We have to understand how painful this is and our

job is to get the family into reality.

BARNETT: I understand that, but we also have to trust Emory and their staff. And, if they have not deemed it the point where --

PINSKY: I am sure they have. I am sure they have. Dr. Lloyd just said, you are in big trouble legally if you take these things over. That is

exactly right. You have to work with the family.

BARNETT: But, we know that, that staff is capable of talking to a family in this situation and getting them to do what they need to do. So, maybe

it is not the time yet. Maybe they do not feel like right now --

PINSKY: When is the time? I am going to show you something Bobby Brown`s sister posted on Facebook. This throws another wrench into this whole

story.

Quote, "My niece, Bobbi Kris, is painfully suffering because of neglect and greed that certain ones who on a daily basis maliciously aim to simply see

her where she is today."

Very damning. "I, as her aunt, and one who truly loves her will not sit back and let the sick, sad madness and injustice continue. With the help

of almighty God, I intend to expose the liars who pretend to have her back but are yet the evil doers!"

What is this, Sam? I think it is a suggestion that there is -- there is something motivating this continued insistence on her staying in the state

of suffering.

SCHACHER: I got out of it that she was pointing fingers at Nick Gordon because Nick Gordon is continuously posting on Twitter that he is the one

that has her back. He should be the one by her side. And, I think that is infuriating her. And, she wants all of these lies to be exposed, because

she thinks that he has been the detriment to her over the past few years.

PINSKY: And, Dr. Lloyd --

SCHACHER: That is what I got out of it.

PINSKY: OK, maybe. And, Dr. Lloyd, you think there may be some foul play?

DR. LLOYD: Sure. We are operating in an information vacuum. We have no information regarding the details of the circumstances that brought to this

girl to the hospital that required her to be pulled out of a bathtub and sent to the hospital.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: And, now she is in a coma.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: We do not know what went on. And, the law enforcement has not told us anything, which means if we have not heard anything about foul

play, suspects, possible drug use, then there must be foul play, suspects and drug use.

But, let me first address the law of unintended consequences. And, listen carefully. If the family gets together, they go to the step down unit and

they bring them downstairs to a quieter, more restful place.

And, then the decision is made to withdraw her from the ventilator. It may not work out as well as you think. In a large series in 2007, when they

took a large number --

PINSKY: They survived.

DR. LLOYD: They are on a ventilator for a long period of time --

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: 23 percent did not die.

PINSKY: I know that and that is fine. If nature takes its course and she recovers without all this insane level of services.

DR. LLOYD: No. She did not recover -- They did not recover.

PINSKY: Of course not.

DR. LLOYD: They are still breathing, but you are still a vegetable.

PINSKY: Of course that is what we are going to dealing with here. And either way that is what you are going to be dealing with here. Listen, if

she stays in ICU indefinitely, she is going to be a vegetable. If she starts breathing on her own, she is going to be a vegetable.

I think she may well start breathing on her own. I have no doubt about that, but that is at least sanity. That is sanity. That is not using

every available resource to sustain -- do you know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars a week are being spent to keep somebody alive

unnecessarily potentially, if this information we are getting is correct?

I want to bring an ICU nurse in here who is going to share her concerns to see if they measure up to my concerns. See if we have the same kind -- I

worked in intensive care medicine for decades. And, these kinds of things when you got into these situations, you wish you had never gotten here in

the place. You wish you did not do the resuscitation.

That is the dirty little secret about situations like this. And, of course, please like us on Facebook. You can watch our after show there.

We will tell you what we think about anything. If you ring in with us there. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ODOULOWU: Dr. Drew, even you have to allow for the possibility of medical, say it with me, everybody -- miracle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It is an injury. If she cut off her arm, are you going to pray for the arm to come back?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: Maybe this is not what they are telling the family, maybe they are telling them, "OK, we have not tried every single thing yet."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I wish she were thriving. I wish she could sing again. I wish a lot of things, but it is not possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: It is just about her life for this family. I do not think they are trying to figure out how to divvy up this money -- sure there are

family members who are looking at her pocket.

ODUOLOWU: But, if a crime has been committed, should not we at least keep her alive until we find out the full facts?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Certainly. Sure, Segun, but you cannot pray for the impossible, the impossible. Erica America joins us now. She is psychotherapist and

radio host. Vanessa Barnett, Dr. Bill Lloyd.

And, do I have on the phone Monica Gauthier? OK. Monica, you are an E.R. and ICU nurse. I am certain you have seen situations like this. How

painful and frustrating is it for nurses to be put in the position of fruitless, useless care?

MONIKA GAUTHIER, E.R. AND ICU NURSE: Hi. Thanks for having me, Dr. Drew. It is definitely hard to watch and hard to take care of patients like this.

I definitely feel for their family and have had numerous experiences with families that have gone through this.

And, I feel like it is just extremely hard for them to understand the difference between their family member is actually not alive and they have

passed compared to us keeping their brain -- or their -- excuse me. Their hearts and their lungs functioning through medicine and machines. Big

difference.

PINSKY: Monica, when I walk into ICUs, almost every single time I walked in there is a nurse who will express frustration with the medical staff not

sort of focusing on bringing the family to reality. Is that been your experience as well?

GAUTHIER: There is definitely some doctors that have better bedside manners and can explain it clearly to patient`s families. And there is

definitely other ones that are not so black and white and give false hope to families because it is easier for them. It is hard to just flat out

say, "I am sorry, there is nothing that can be done."

PINSKY: What we end up treating in cases like this is the family`s grief and not the patient. Would you agree?

GAUTHIER: Exactly. Definitely. I have had many families state that they feel like they are giving up on a family member or actually killing a

family member by pulling the plug. And, then they realize later that their family member had already passed. And, it was basically medications we

were pumping into them and machines letting their lungs function that was keeping, you know, them there.

PINSKY: Thank you so much, Monica. I really appreciate your comments. I know you got a cold. And, you are worried that your voice would not be

clear but it is quite clear.

Dr. Lloyd, so here is my concern. So, let us say you move her out of the ICU and she breathes on her own. I am not wishing that she should die. I

am not wishing it at all. I am saying that she should be getting the appropriate level of care for the condition -- the reality of the

condition, massive, diffuse brain damage that will never get better. And I understand you have a concern about VIP medicine. I bet -- you have a

concern that maybe that is what is going on here. And, that is my concern as well.

DR. LLOYD: With VIP medicine, all the rules get thrown out the window. Bad things happen when people practice VIP medicine. We can take

shortcuts. We do not have to follow normal policies. We can get you the best possible care because you are paying for it.

PINSKY: You know, Dr. Lloyd, you actually gave me chills when you said that. When you give somebody VIP medicine, would you agree with me you are

giving sort of special care? And, there is a reason the standard of care is the standard because it is the best.

DR. LLOYD: Sometimes special care is horrible care.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: Ask Joan Rivers.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: Let me also ask the fathers of America that are watching this show right now, particularly fathers of daughters, control room, bring up

my Twitter handle if you would. If you are a father with one daughter and she was in this condition and you were willing to say, "Yes, Doc, let he

her go" after 30 days. If you think you could do that, you tweet me, and I will get back to you, Drew and let you know how many followers could let

that happen. I can tell you right now, it will be a small number.

PINSKY: All right. All right. I will tell you what -- I will tell you what, Dr. Lloyd. I got a page full of nurses and doctors saying the same

thing that we just heard the ICU nurse say here. Erica, let me go to you. You are a newcomer to this panel. Any thoughts on what we are discussing

here?

ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/RADIO HOST: No. I agree with both sides. On one side, I want to say -- you know, I am the empathy queen. So, I want

to say, "Dr. Drew, are you thinking it from the family side and how difficult it must be to just, you know, say good-bye to the family member?"

But, then I am hearing what you are saying. And, it is like, it is the reality of the situation. And, it is the brain damage that has been done.

And, why do not we starts to work on the grief, you know, where we are than kind of give false hope?

So, my next question is, what can we do, Dr. Drew, for the hospital staff? What can we do towards these doctors so that it does not continue? So,

that it is not a continued thing. That would be my next question.

PINSKY: And they do not focus on any kind of VIP special care, because it will be substandard. Standard of care is a standard for a reason. You

start giving something special, you are not going to give the standard, it is going to be substandard.

Now, the rumor mill is in overdrove tonight. The Brown family reportedly talking about doing a reality show. I will have more to say on that after

this.

(COMNMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Erica, Vanessa, and Dr. Bill Lloyd. Let us address the reports that members of the Brown family are shooting some sort of reality

show while Bobbi Kristina is hospitalized in a coma.

We have a quote from Bobby Brown`s lawyer, which is as follows: "There is no Brown Family reality show that is in production, which chronicles Bobby

Brown, Bobbi Kristina or the medical emergency she presently faces at Emory Hospital."

I also want to show you one of the recent Nick Gordon tweets. That was a little disturbing. "I am so hurt. I want do myself in. I know I have to

be strong". Erica, do you believe that is a real suicidal threat there? Or is that just more drama?

AMERICA: Well, I think this is scary, OK? Either way. If I could look into my psychological crystal ball, I would say this is bad news whether he

meant it for attention or for real, it is not a good thing. Where is this guy`s support system? Of course, we have to find out whether he is

culpable for what happened.

PINSKY: Listen, this guy -- remember, this guy was adopted by Whitney in sort of weird sort of thing. Where was his family to begin with? How did

he end up in family in the first place? Then he ends -- it is very weird.

AMERICA: Right. So, if he was a part of that family. He has obviously been abandoned by that family. So, he does not have anybody. So, I think

whether -- we got to find out what his role was. But he needs to have support, because we do not want a suicide on top of a murder -- whatever it

was.

PINSKY: Yes. Another drowning or something. Yes.

AMERICA: I think this could be negative. He is ranting on Twitter. I was reading all of his tweets. They were very all over the place. I think he

needs to be watched.

PINSKY: Yes. I agree with you. There is lots of questions, Vanessa, also about Bobbi Kristina`s inheritance and whether the family is fighting over

money. I am going to show you what we do know here. If you guys could put that up.

Bobbi Kristina is the sole heir to $20 million. At age 21, she got 20 percent. At 25, she has 15 percent. At 30, she gets the balance. Now,

she has inherited approximately $2 million in 2014, age 21.

If she dies without children, the remainder goes to Cissy Houston and Whitney`s two brothers. Vanessa, if Bobbi has another will, that will

tramp everything. We just do not know what might be going on. Do you have any suspicions?

BARNETT: I would hope that this has been handled. I hope money is not a factor in keeping this young lady alive or pulling the plug or any of those

things. I do believe that there are some cousins and brothers and sisters distantly that may be trying to capitalize.

PINSKY: All right. What I think is about this case is it is a tragedy on all fronts, but there is a time to be realistic. She is not going to wake

up. She is not going to be the Bobbi Kristina we knew. There is a zero probability of that. It is a massive brain damage.

How this plays out needs to be done very honestly with good guidance to the family. DVR us then you can watch us any time. "Forensic Files" begins

next. Thank you for joining us.

END