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Dr. Drew
Nick Gordon to Blame for Bobbi Kristina Brown Tragedy; Gordon Reportedly Started Treatment Immediately After Emotional Interview with Dr. Phil; Male Transitioning to Female in Women`s Locker Room; Superbug Outbreak at UCLA Medical Center
Aired March 09, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, is Nick Gordon to blame for the Bobbi Kristina Brown`s tragedy? She has been in a
coma since January. That is 38 days. No end in sight. And, he now reportedly headed to rehab.
Plus, a transgender scandal. A male transitioning to a female, belong in the women`s locker room. We will start with the story you are tweeting
about most tonight. Bobbi Kristina`s Nick Gordon apparently seeking treatment for addiction. He reportedly started treatment immediately after
an emotional and nearly violent interview with Dr. Phil. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHILLIP "PHIL" MCGRAW, HOST OF DR. PHIL SHOW/FORMER PSYCHOLOGIST: Your son left to his own devices he will be dead inside a week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Nick Gordon --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON, KRISTINA BOBBI BROWN`S BOYFRIEND: I miss Krissy and Whitney so much. I want them back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: The exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORDON: I hate bobby brown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: You have been drinking a lot, though, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: That turns --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORDON: And to the point I am getting frustrated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: -- into an intervention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: I want to you go straight to rehab.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORDON: I am done with the interview.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell and Dr.
Bill Lloyd, Surgeon/Pathologist. Vanessa, do you have any issues with Nick going to treatment like this?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. It is kind of just out of the blue. You hear of this interview and then all of a sudden it turns
into an intervention. And, then we hear that he has issues with alcohol. He has issues with prescription drugs, maybe. It is just all so sudden and
it makes you very confused.
PINSKY: Hold on, Vanessa. You are shocked and confused. But, my question is, the manner in which this happened in front of cameras and -- these were
probably paid interviews. Any problem with that?
BARNETT: I think it is a problem when it is a paid interview. I have always heard that --
PINSKY: Why? Why?
BARNETT: Because why does it need to be this? If you have a serious issue, people handle issues like this all the time in private. If you have an
issue, you go to rehab in private. Not everyone needs to display everything on the small screen. And on top of that, he is under so much
scrutiny as it is. He has done too much on Twitter. He has talked too much, but he is not talking to the authorities.
PINSKY: But, Vanessa -- Vanessa, it was not like he was manipulated --
BARNETT: Why Dr. Phil? Why to Twitter?
PINSKY: -- it was not like somebody forced him to have this interview or he was manipulated. He asked for the interview. He was paid for the
interview.
BARNETT: That is the problem.
PINSKY: I think it is reasonable that a guy shows up wasted and Dr. Phil then goes, "Hey! You are going to treatment." That is an appropriate
thing.
BARNETT: I think it is a problem that the interview was even booked. He needs to be talking to the police not Dr. Phil.
PINSKY: But that is not up to -- that is up to Nick, right? And, he decided to do the interview. Loni, you know what I am saying here?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes. He is a man of his own free will.
COOMBS: Yes. Right.
PINSKY: He wants to make some money and be paid for an interview. And, then people appropriately identify a serious medical problem here.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: And say, "Dude, get to treatment."
COOMBS: Exactly, Dr. Drew. How many times do we say here on this show, why did not they get help? Why did not -- when people saw something, why
did not they speak up? And, say "You need an intervention." This is what Dr. Phil did. He saw that this guy was clearly drunk, under the influence,
struggling, needed help. He said, "You need intervention and we are going to do it now."
And, that is what we advocate on this show over and over again. If you have substance abuse problems, if you have addiction, if you have mental
illness, get help. And, the people around you bring that up and say it, call it when you see it. And, that is what Dr. Phil did.
PINSKY: And, Dr. Lloyd, I do not know if you agree or disagree with that. But, there would have been a better way to do it, which is to say, "Hey,
Nick, I tell you what. We are going to have this interview. I will pay you after you completed three months, six months of treatment." Who cares
what the motivation is, as long as they get him into treatment and through treatment.
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: I am not taking the bait. I am not going to take it. This is another story of a celebrity in trouble who
goes into rehab to escape law enforcement.
COOMBS: Well --
PINSKY: I cannot disagree with that. Loni? Listen, my thing is, I do not care -- Dr. Lloyd, half the time people when they came to treatment with me
were sent by the court.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: The court sends people to treatment. Their family sends people to treatment. Who cares what gets them there? Once we get them there, we can
do things with them.
BARNETT: No.
PINSKY: No. Vanessa, that is --
DR. LLOYD: They are not motivated.
PINSKY: Wait. Vanessa, that is simply a fact.
DR. LLOYD: They are not motivated to cooperate.
BARNETT: That is not the issue that play here. If he is --
DR. LLOYD: It is just not going to mean anything. It is just going to be a wasted vacation.
PINSKY: Sometimes. Sometimes.
DR. LLOYD: Here is what we know. As long as Bobbi Kristina is alive, there has been no murder. As long as Bobbi Kristina is alive, there will
be no homicide investigation. There are plenty of people pulling for Bobbi Kristina to stay alive for a very long time.
PINSKY: Well, that is interesting. Maybe that is why they are keeping her alive the way they are so cruelly in my opinion. But, Loni there is at
least a potentially an attempted murder charge. Is not there?
COOMBS: Right. Right.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
COOMBS: Absolutely. There is still a possible criminal investigation. The police just reiterated and said, "Look, we are not considering this an
accident investigation. We are considering this a criminal investigation."
And, they are doing what they can to get the evidence. Whether she dies, that means it is a homicide, a murder, but that does not stop the criminal
prosecution from going forward for an attempted murder if they have the evidence.
DR. LLOYD: Once it goes to homicide, many switches get thrown.
BARNETT: Is not that the biggest issue here?
DR. LLOYD: Oh, no.
BARNETT: Is not that the bigger issue, not Nick Gordon?
DR. LLOYD: Once it is a homicide,you bring in many different resources, many different resources when it switches from violent behavior to
homicide. And, when those switches get thrown, people get into trouble.
PINSKY: Now, I want to show you something that Bobby Brown`s sister Leolah posted. It was an open letter to Dr. Phil in her Facebook page. It says,
quote, "With all due respect, Nick Gordon is under investigation for the attempted murder of my niece, Bobbi Kristina Brown." Again, we do not know
if this is true or not. This is her letter.
"We have strong evidence of foul play. Until this investigation is completed by law enforcement, I would ask that you or anyone else not
provide this individual a platform to spin the situation to his benefit. If Nick Gordon does not have the courage to speak with my brother, Bobby
Brown, and/or law enforcement about what happened the day my niece`s body was found in the bathtub, he does not deserve to have a platform to speak
to anyone of your caliber until this investigation is concluded."
BARNETT: I agree.
PINSKY: Who said that, Vanessa?
BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: Why?
BARNETT: Because now, it is all of a sudden Nick Gordon is the victim and we are talking about him going to rehab and his drug issues. No, the issue
here is that he knows firsthand information that no one else knows. He was the only one in the house aside from another friend.
And, he has not spoken to the authorities. So, I do not care right now about what you are going through and what is going on. You could possibly
have had a hand in this young woman`s demise.
PINSKY: But, in the meantime --
BARNETT: And, you need to talk to authorities.
PINSKY: Loni, in the meantime, he is entitled to get treatment. God knows if he is in his right mind, he will be able to come to his own defense. I
will tell you what did bother me about the interview, though, is this guy`s nonsense of carrying on about how he misses Bobbi Kristina and how
traumatized he is. He is going to go keep doing drugs because he is being so traumatized.
BARNETT: Playing victim.
COOMBS: Yes, but let me tell you --
PINSKY: Nonsense.
COOMBS: Let me tell you this. From the point of view of the prosecutor, sure, their preference would be that he come in and talk to the police.
But, apparently, they do not have any leverage right now to get him do that. Any time they go ahead -- a suspect -- we do not know if he is a
suspect. But they make a statement in the media.
Believe me, the prosecutor will take that tape and they will look for any little thing that they can use to help their case. Now, it may be a
totally self-serving thing. It may be, "Oh, poor me." Be sympathetic towards me." But you never know if they might say something that is going
to help the prosecution. I mean look at Jodi Arias` interviews.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: They came back to bite her in the butt. And, you do not know what Nick Gordon might say that might come back to be able to be used against
him.
PINSKY: Of course.
COOMBS: And, because, he said it on T.V., right there --
PINSKY: He would be an attorney`s worst nightmare, right|?
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: He gets on T.V. and says all kinds of crazy stuff.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: And, next he says he wants to do himself in. What exactly does that mean? Would he harm himself? Was that a real threat?
And, later, scandal at a gym. A woman who was a man uses the woman`s locker room and it is a scandal. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO Clip)
DR. LLOYD: The family wants to support the child and allow her to stay alive, and everybody else seems to be ready to throw in the towel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am not wishing that she should die. I am not wishing that at all. I am saying that she should she get the appropriate level of care for
the condition, the reality of this condition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICCI GILBET-DANIELS, R&B ARTIST/PRODUCER: With all due respect, Dr. Drew, I am one who believes in the power of people being able to heal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: It is just about her life for this family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Some hope is better than none --
PINSKY: No -- Yes.
ODUOLOWU: I understand that she may never come back to be fully what she was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is about the proper management of the reality of the medical circumstance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa and Loni and joining us Emily Roberts, psychotherapist. I got to address that little piece of tape you just saw
before we go on with the Nick Gordon situation. She is 38 days -- Bobbi Kristina Brown, 38 days into a coma from, which she is not going to
recover.
We spoke to a neurologist during the show. I have spoken to other neurologists. I walk into intensive care units everyday in my professional
life. And, most of the time when I am walking in the unit the first thing I would encounter would be a nurse, who is upset because doctors were
unnecessarily keeping somebody alive and utilizing resources and keeping somebody in a miserable, just awful state for no reason.
Zero. The probability of recovery is zero. Now, that does not mean she is going to die. It does not mean she is brain dead. But, it means that you
should have the appropriate level of care, given that nothing good is going to happen here. And, by the way, I would want zero care.
This is one of the situations where you better be sure to specify in your living will exactly what you want, because I would not want be a vegetable.
She is going to be a vegetable. Let us just call it what it is. That is what is going to happen here, and there is nothing any of us can do about
it.
Now, you can let nature take its course and be less aggressive with her. Why they are keeping her at the highest level of care? Tracheostomy, on a
breathing machine on her neck, a tube to feed her through abdominal wall, she has no response to the external world whatsoever we are hearing. No
response.
And, at 38 days, there is not going to be any meaningful response down the road. There just is not going to be. As such, why not at least get her
out of the ICU or maybe off the ventilator? Find a way to get her off if that is possible.
And, just have an appropriate level of care for this woman who -- would any of us want to be in that shape and have our family just because we as the
family had difficulty saying good-bye, keeping us in some sort of suspended state of animation? I have said enough.
I want to switch to Dr. Phil. He predicts that Nick Gordon left alone would be dead in one week. He came in for that interview. He was
intoxicated. He was belligerent.
Emily, predicting death in one week, that is a pretty -- I cannot do that. I worked in the field for 20 years. I have been shocked by people that do
well and shocked by people that die of this disease. It is very cunning baffling disorder.
EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, for sure. And, he displayed some really meaningful behavior on that show. He was expressing how he was
feeling. And, I got to be honest with you, whether or not he committed this alleged crime or not, if that was my sister or my girlfriend`s sister,
wife, whatever he is, I think that I would probably want to be somewhere where I would be mentally taken care of as well. Anyone would be
depressed.
PINSKY: All right.
ROBERTS: That is how I feel.
PINSKY: Take a look at the tweet that got Dr. Phil`s attention. It is from Nick. He says, quote, "I am so hurt. I want to do myself in. I know
I have to be strong." Let us go around the panel here. Vanessa, do you believe that? Do you believe he really wants to hurt himself?
BARNETT: Absolutely not. I feel like all of this is just a diversion tactic from the real issue at hand, which is Bobbi Kristina and the marks
that were found on her body that suggest that there was some foul play.
He is trying to make us look at everything around what is happening with the tweets, with this interview now. Now, he is the one that is the
victim. No. I am not buying it.
PINSKY: Right.
BARNETT: I do not want to hear it.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: He is not the issue.
PINSKY: Loni?
COOMBS: You know, there is a lot of reasons why he could be se suicidal. If there indeed was a foul play and he feel guilty he could feel suicidal.
If he is just depressed because he just lost his fiancee, the person closest to him, he could feel suicidal.
And, sometimes, Dr. Drew, I worry that when people -- even if they are not necessarily suicidal, but they put things out like that on social media,
sort of testing the waters, depending on the response they get, it might push them towards that when they are not really there yet.
PINSKY: Well -- yes. And, Emily, you would agree you can never take these things other than as a potentially life-threatening situation. But, I
would say just judging by the way this guy behaves, all of this is a reason to keep using drugs. I know drug addicts. And, they will find any good
reason to keep using. This guy has a ton of good reasons.
ROBERTS: And he was using substances before it.
PINSKY: Of course.
ROBERTS: You know, in 2012 I believe --
PINSKY: Of course.
ROBERTS: Yes. This is not brand new behavior. He has been using this for years. And, you know what? I got to be honest with you. How was this
reinforced growing up? He was around Whitney Houston. I mean let us be honest, not the best role model.
PINSKY: And, you could argue that the two of them, Bobbi Kristina and Nick, were sort of recreating the chaos and the domestic -- chaos is what
it was. There was abuse that we have heard about too. But all of that is being recreated now from their families of origin.
ROBERTS: Absolutely. I completely agree.
PINSKY: Now, there is another piece of this, who is Nick Gordon`s mother suddenly shows up. I do not understand -- I have been confused about this
guy from the get go. Vanessa, you are going to agree with that.
She is suddenly deeply involved in his life and yet she hands the kid over at age 12 to Whitney Houston? How does that work? I did not understand
that.
BARNETT: All of a sudden you pop up and you watch your son on Dr. Drew and now you have tears and you are so hurt. Where were you when he needed
guidance? Where were you when you were supposed to be his mother and you left Whitney Houston to raise him?
And, now we hear these things about that -- you know, he was involved in drugs at a young age and was helping Whitney get drugs, like all these
crazy stories that could have been averted had your mother stepped in at the right time and not years later when, Lord knows what is going on.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, we opened this by saying -- what is that, Loni? Go ahead. Is that Emily or Loni?
ROBERTS: Emily.
PINSKY: Emily, go ahead.
ROBERTS: She was not being paid to be his mom then.
PINSKY: Brutal. Brutal.
ROBERTS: She is being paid to be his mom now, and now she is set this way --
PINSKY: Mom is mom. We do not know what was going on then. But, I am just saying, it is a weird thing. We opened this by saying Phil predicted
this kid would be dead in a week. You cannot make predictions like that. That is why I disagree with him. You cannot.
However, he was being polemic, perhaps just to make the seriousness -- the point of the moment, how deadly serious this situation is. And, I do not
disagree with that. This kid is really in serious trouble. In the last segment, we were talking about whether he is motivated to go through
treatment. We will see.
But, I will tell you what, if you can get people into treatment, does not matter how you get them there, sometimes you can get them to a place where
they suddenly find the motivation to get well. We used to call it, getting it. How do you give somebody get it.
It is very unpredictable. Who is going to get it and when? But, if you get them into treatment, at least you have the possibility of getting
somewhere with them. So, I say, hats off to the fact that he got him into treatment.
Next up, Bobbi Kristina`s aunt has another message on Facebook for Nick Gordon.
And, later, a woman`s gym membership is revoked after she complains about a transgender individual using the woman`s locker room. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I wish she were thriving. I wish she could sing again. I wish a lot of things, but it is not possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: So, can you do a little?
BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN, ONLY DAUGHTER OF WHITNEY HOUSTON AND BOBBY BROWN (singing): From the moment I saw you, I went out of my mind. I never
believed in love at first sight. But you got that magic boy that is making me fly. And, you got a, you got a, you got a thing that you are making me
feel --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes. That is good.
BROWN (singing): I can do anything for you baby
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Vanessa, Loni and Emily. That tape actually breaks my heart. And, I want to ask my panel something. You guys I know you were
not prepared for this, but I want to ask you. Do you have any questions about the condition she is in? Do you understand what I am trying to
communicate to viewers? This whole situation is unconscious to the line.
COOMBS: Well, you know, I am so glad you asked this, Dr. Drew because I am always trying to read, you know, beyond the medical jargon. And, when you
say that they should let nature take its course and get her the appropriate level of care --
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: I wrote that down. I do not really know what that means specifically.
PINSKY: What that means is that they are using -- I mean you can keep somebody breathing and heart beating almost indefinitely. We just have
that ability now. And, so, as such, there comes a time where it is not appropriate to be doing that with somebody just because --
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: You have to see what you got. You got to pull back a little bit and see what happens and develop a philosophy of care that says, you know,
if she does not make it and we pull back, we really should think twice about intervening.
The probability of anybody with any condition spending two months in an ICU on a ventilator unconscious ever having meaningful existence, I do not care
what you are in there for, the probability is very low. And, if you are in there for a brain injury, the probability is zero.
So, given that reality, that is simply the reality. It just is what has to be contended with. That is what doctors do, we prognosticate and then we
make decisions based on that prognosis. We have talked to multiple physicians now. We are all in agreement based on what we are hearing.
That is what is going on there.
So, you have to back off and then maybe if she starts having trouble you do not intervene with the same aggression, because the probability of it being
of the end coming anyway is simply 100 percent.
COOMBS: OK.
PINSKY: And, so, you have to let nature take its course at a certain time. I am not saying -- I am not there. I do not know for sure, but I am
wondering why that is not happening.
COOMBS: But, the reality of what you are saying is substantially at some point just let her go home --
PINSKY: No. No. Not at home. Just out of the ICU.
COOMBS: OK.
PINSKY: Just out of an Intensive Care Unit.
COOMBS: OK.
PINSKY: Just in a hospital ward somewhere and agree that if things get bad, we are not going to put her back in the ICU, because we are just going
to keep doing that over and over again indefinitely, because she is never going to get better, if that starts to happen. Vanessa?
BARNETT: Could they be sustaining her life because of the ongoing investigation?
PINSKY: That is what I wonder.
BARNETT: Is her body needed for that investigation?
PINSKY: I wonder. Loni, is there any evidence of anything like that or anything about the will or whatever might be going on around the financial
issues?
COOMBS: Yes. There has been no talk of that and I do not know about that. And, I would think that if that was the sole purpose for keeping her alive,
then that that would be essentially -- I mean inhuman to keep somebody alive for financial reasons. But, I would think that the family would step
in at that point and say, "We do not want you to keep her alive at that point solely for financial reasons."
PINSKY: Loni, I am going to switch over to Emily and ask this question. Why is it different to keep people, someone alive unnecessarily or sort of
artificially because of people`s unwillingness to grieve, which we do all the time?"
ROBERTS: That is a really good question. I mean I think there is a lot of this emotional detachment. They do not really know how to grieve. That is
what I am figuring out or attempting to figure out is why would you want to do this to your daughter?
PINSKY: That is right.
ROBERTS: You know?
PINSKY: Thank you.
ROBERTS: There has to be somebody to step in to help them.
PINSKY: Thank you.
ROBERTS: Like I said before, hospice, something.
PINSKY: Somebody to be direct and honest and establish a philosophy of care. Now, Bobbi Kristina`s aunt seems to be somebody who is calling
things straight. She is sort of been a leader in all this. She also is fed up with the criticism of the brown family.
By, the way, I am not being critical. I am being sympathetic. I feel as though they are not getting the right direction. Listen to this re-
enactment of what she posted on Facebook.
(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
LEOLAH BROWN, BOBBY BROWN`S SISTER (audio-reenactment): "I am so sick and tired of so called civilized and so called educated people making ugly
comments about my family. How many times have you seen a Brown trying to do a story to make money? So, you see, will the real money hungry people,
please stand up.
My sister, Whitney Houston`s, tragedy was not done on the Brown`s watch! Remember that. Furthermore, my niece, Bobbi Kristina Brown`s, tragedy was
also not done on the Brown`s watch. Remember that as well."
(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)
PINSKY: She says, Bobbi Kristina`s -- that is the aunt said, Whitney`s death, Bobbi Kristina`s incident did not happen on our watch. But, you
know, I agree with her. And, I do not want to spread -- making more guilt and more responsibility.
We got to find out what did in fact happen. But it seems like, Emily, that if you look at Bobbi Kristina and her family, they were not exactly close.
And, that might not have been the family`s fault.
ROBERTS: No, not at all. It seems like they were not close at all. They did not have -- they were angry. There was a lot of tension, especially --
PINSKY: And, it might have been around Nick Gordon, right? It might have been Nick Gordon causing all that tension.
ROBERTS: But he was around from the beginning.
PINSKY: Well, but maybe -- maybe --
ROBERTS: He was around for a long time.
PINSKY: But, maybe they saw the substance use and maybe they started thinking this guy is at the core of why she is being alienated. Loni, you
are nodding your head, you agree with that?
COOMBS: Yes. And, I think there has been some mention of that by the grandmother -- the mother of Whitney Houston saying, "We do not approve of
this guy. We love you, Bobbi, but we do not approve of this guy."
And, when he came in, sort of full-time as fiance or husband, or whatever they want to call it, I think the grandmother and the rest of the family
members were pulled back, because they were not allowed to be a part of that. Because they did not approve of him.
PINSKY: But not just did not approve. Vanessa --
ROBERTS: Allowed her to --
PINSKY: Well, hang on a second, Emily. Vanessa, whenever somebody is in a relationship where the individual is separating them from their family of
origin, separating them from their support group, that is a concern.
And, it seemed like at least based on what we are hearing, that is kind of what was happening with Bobbi Kristina. You look a little stun here, put
this all together for me.
BARNETT: Absolutely. They had a very co-dependent relationship. All they needed -- all they thought they needed was each other. They were very
isolated. They were very closed off and they did not ask people to come in. They did not want people to come in.
And, so, there was not that opportunity for anyone to kind a step in and say, "Oh, no, this looks really bad." Once they heard the criticism of
their relationship, they took it and they were in that little condo and all they have was each other.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, so, you cannot really blame the family when they could not even get into kind of help and rescue both of these individuals that looked
like they both needed help.
PINSKY: All right. Here is what I think. I am going to pull the curtain back, again. I am sorry. I do not know any other way to do it. I do not
know these people. I do not know what went on here, but we can learn something from this.
He, we now know, drugs and alcohol. He was clear about that on Dr. Phil interview. Hats off to Phil for getting him an interview. I might not
agree on some of the things he said, but any way you get somebody in treatment, hats off to you for having done that.
And, for by the way, changing gears it seems like mid-interview to intervene on this guy and get him to get treatment. They got him there.
Hats off. Hats off. Full respect. That is number one.
Number two, if he is an addict and doing drugs and we saw her seemingly intoxicated on her reality show, the big picture is addiction. I do not
know these people, but I am going to call it. I mean let us call it what it is.
When people are found drown in a bathtub and there is drugs and alcohol around, each drugs and alcohol do that and it is pills almost always. I
have said it. I have said it. I have said it. We are going to find out that is what undoubtedly is going to be the problem here.
People do not take an illicit drug and then get in the bathtub. They take pills and get in the bathtub. And, unfortunately, she may have gotten them
from some of my peers. And, it breaks my heart. This is a tragedy.
Next up, a transgender locker room controversy that has many people talking tonight.
And, later, another thing that makes me crazy. The so-called superbug. It is on the front page of newspapers and it is nonsense. It is hype. I am
going to address it. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YVETTE CORMIER, A 48-YEAR-OLD COMPLAINANT OF MIDLAND PLANET FITNESS: Gunned and shocked. And, he totally looked like a man. He was not dressed
like a woman at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: That woman, Yvette Cormier, alleges she lost her membership at a Planet Fitness Gym after complaining about seeing a man
in the woman`s locker room. But Planet Fitness says, the transgender woman she encountered has every right to use the woman`s locker room and points
to the gym is judgment free zone policy.
LGBT advocates applaud the policy and say it protects the safety of transgender women, who could be at risk in a men`s locker room. But
Cormier`s supporters say the gym`s policy is dead wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I do not think just because you say that you identify yourself as a woman that you can just go into the woman`s locker
room every time you feel like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: It is time for "Seriously," a story that might be hard to believe unless it were in fact true. Back with Nicole Ramos, she is a transgender
YouTube star. Sam Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu! and Loni Coombs still with me.
Planet Fitness told CNN that a man or woman can choose a locker room based on -- this is their quoted policy, quote, "Sincere self-reported gender
identity." Yet Yvette Cormier says, she understands that some men may identify as such as a woman but alleged Planet Fitness gym should have told
her about the policy before she had joined. Sam, help me understand exactly why her gym membership was in fact revoked.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: OK. So, Planet Fitness says that they revoked her membership not because she complained but rather
the manner in which she complained.
PINSKY: So, this is what? What happened?
SCHACHER: So, this is how it all went down, OK? She reportedly voiced her concern that there was a man in the woman`s locker room, OK? She called
headquarters. She went to the manager. Planet Fitness says that they reminded her about this gender policy that they have in place.
Also, that this was not a man but rather a transgender woman that identified as a woman. Then she told them, "Why I was not aware of this
policy. You should have told me this before I signed up."
Also, she encountered this transgender woman on a Saturday, OK? Then she came back reportedly that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and
according to the gym, she disrupted all of the gym members by alerting them that there was a man in the locker room --
PINSKY: And, Sam -- Sam --
SCHACHER: -- And that is when she got her membership revoked.
PINSKY: What? She came in with a big bell? Here ye! Hear ye!
SCHACHER: Who knows. She apparently was --
PINSKY: There is a penis loose in the woman`s locker room. What did she do? This is naughty. Did she walk around like telling people the yell or
did she stand in front and yell? What is that?
SCHACHER: I do not know the exact details, but the language that I have from Planet Fitness was that she was very disruptive. And, they did not
like the idea that she was going around almost rallying the other gym members and alerting them about this man in the locker room.
PINSKY: Crazy. Loni, is not it up to this woman that was complaining to have read her -- I guess it is a contract you sign with the gym, right?
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Is not that on her, not the gym?
COOMBS: Well, yes. You know, when you sign those gym membership contracts, there is so much stuff in there, and it is all written really
small. I will tell you, yes, she should have read it, but I am also wondering how well the gym handled it when she talked to them.
I think maybe they needed to give her a little more information and understanding. I do not like the way she handled it, and I really think
that the policy of the gym is very progressive.
However, let us be honest here. Yes, everyone here is on the cutting edge and we are much more aware of the transgender community and the issues that
they are facing. But, there is a lot of people out there still that are very uninformed and uneducated and do not understand and might be taken
back by this.
PINSKY: Well --
COOMBS: And I do not understand --
PINSKY: But is that incumbent on the gym to bring her up to speed? Let me ask somebody who lived through a lot of this. Nicole, I imagine you must
have been through some experiences like this, and I wonder what you are thinking.
NICOLE RAMOS, TRANSGERDER YOUTUBE STAR: You know, I have never had an experience in a locker room or a bathroom, but I have known girls who have
had this type of experience. It is a real-life experience that trans-women often times face a lot of the times where women who are newly transitioned
or maybe are not as passable. This is definitely something that we experience.
PINSKY: What do you think the policy should be? And, how do you think they should have handled this woman? And, by the way and what is the
issue? I mean -- because I get confused about this.
Is it -- think about it. I mean is it sexual orientation that this woman is suddenly worried about? Or is it just the fact of anatomy? I mean what
is she so upset about? Help me, Nicole. Can you get sense of this?
RAMOS: You know, I really think that this is ignorance. I think A lot of the times we have subconscious kind of bigotry. And, I think that this is
kind of where this is coming from.
I think the policy is really, really great. Especially considering that there has been six transgender women that have been murdered this year.
So, I think it is really great to see that not everyone is against us.
PINSKY: OK. So, we would applaud. Sam, we would applaud this gym. You support the gym. Nicole supports the gym. What does your instinct tell
you that this woman is reacting to other than she is not familiar with it? Nicole used the word ignorance. I do not want to use that strong word, but
I am wondering what really --
SCHACHER: I think she --
PINSKY: -- why they react like that?
SCHACHER: I think she is a little bit of a troublemaker, Dr. Drew. I will just say it. I am sorry. I get that she would be -- would have a concern.
And, if it was a genuine concern, I do not fault her at that but as soon as the manager of the gym informed her of the policy; and also informed her
that, listen, "This is not a man, this is a transgender woman," what is this woman supposed to do?
Go hold up in the men`s bathroom where she does not feel comfortable. If we came from a place of compassion, Dr. Drew, and understanding, none of
this would happen. People just seem to be more tolerant --
PINSKY: Well, it is more than that. I mean what are we going to next, Loni? We have to say that gay men cannot be in a men`s locker room or
lesbian women cannot be in the women`s locker room?
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: I mean, where do we draw the line? What is it that is troubling people? Is it anatomy? No penis allowed in that locker room? Where is
our problem? How do we adjudicate? How do we understand this?
COOMBS: Yes. But, Dr. Drew, let us not look at this at totally rose colored glasses. It was not that long ago that gays and lesbians had a lot
of discrimination against them, too. So, we have come a long way. We have a lot further to go. I am impressed that this gym had a written policy
about this issue.
SCHACHER: Right.
COOMBS: That they actually thought about it and put it in writing and put it in the contract, so that they could say this to people who had a
question when this situation came up, because it does come up. The whole rest room, bathroom, where do I go, it comes up in people`s -- in public
places and especially in the gym.
PINSKY: 0Let me go to the source, again. Nicole, you are the expert on this. I am just sort of confused by how people react. Did you have any
sense of this? I mean this is something you live with, you think about. I am trying to understand. I am trying to understand why people react the
way they do. What do you say?
RAMOS: Well, as far as why she is so offended -- once again, I just -- I have to stick with the fact that I think it is a form of bigotry that she
has going on.
PINSKY: Yes, but why would she -- what is in it for her? Think about it. So, why react like that, unless she is having some kind of a weird visceral
response. She is having some reaction.
RAMOS: One thing I want to point out is that there are a lot of people who kind of feel this way.
PINSKY: And, what is that? What is it? If you come across it -- Nicole, hold on, I will interrupt you. If you come across it, what is that?
RAMOS: I think it is ignorance. It is kind of -- I do not know. I am not in their mind. So, I do not really know where exactly it is coming from.
PINSKY: OK.
RAMOS: But, I think it is ignorance. But I think trying to push us towards the men`s locker room and the men`s restroom is very reminiscent of
trans-women who are in men prison. I really do not think it is a safe environment for us either. I think we all needs to be comfortable and
safe.
PINSKY: All right. Well, we asked -- we took a poll tonight. We asked whether or not, you agree with the gym having revoked the woman`s
membership. 56 percent agree with the gym`s decision. It is pretty close to split, if you see this. 44 percent say they in fact disagree.
And, I will tell you what. We need to -- it is confusing. I understand that it is confusing. And, I understand people have these sort of visceral
reactions to it. But they really need to sit back and be just passionate and think about it.
I mean what is it she is reacting, is it genitalia? Is it hormones or hormonal status? Is it sexual preferences? And if so, how and why? And,
what is it you are going to use as your standard. And, I understand it is different. It is hard to get used to and you are having kind of a
reaction.
But, that reaction if you sit back and think about it is not founded on any principle that you can really defend. I think the gym probably is --
Certainly, they should be commended for trying to move this forward having a policy as Loni said.
Next up, this so-called superbug. I hate that term. It is generated a lot of fear unnecessarily. I got answers. Be sure please check us out also on
Facebook. Watch our after show or tell us what you think about tonight`s show or anything else. Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The deadly superbug outbreak.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN MEADE, HLN HOST OF "MORNING EXPRESS WITH ROBIN MEADE": The superbug outbreak at the UCLA Medical Center.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ZACHARY RUBIN, MEDICAL DIRECTOR OF CLINICAL EPIDEMIOLOGY AND INFECTION PREVENTION: An unusual organism, a bacteria resistant to a lot of strains
that normally act to antibiotics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (audio re-enactment): Wash your hands and stop with the antibiotics for a cold. Superbug can be slowed down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROBERT CHERRY, UCLA HEALTH SYSTEM`S CHIEF MEDICAL AND QUALITY OFFICER: There were two endoscopes that were used that had a CRE infection embedded
in them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BENJAMIN SCHWARTZ, DEPUTY CHIEF AT LOS ANGELES COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH: CRE and other antimicrobial resistant bacteria are an
emerging threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (audio re-enactment): Fear is not my thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Loni, Bill and joining us Jamie Otis, registered nurse and television host. People are getting Ebola first, right? Everyone is
getting Ebola. I told you, you were not going to get Ebola.
And, now it is the dreaded superbug, so-called. And, I say, print media is doing the public a tremendous disservice by putting headlines about so-
called superbugs. That is insanity in my opinion.
Three excellent hospitals have been making headlines because some equipment, medical equipment -- two in fact got infected with bacteria that
does not respond to antibiotics. It can be very serious. They identified it. They took care of it.
But, Dr. Lloyd, my concern is this whole term superbug. Listen, back when I was a resident, 30 years ago, we had bacteria all over our ICU. That is
why we have infection control departments and nurses monitoring everything in the hospital, especially in the ICU. It is not something that just
started.
DR. LLOYD: No, it is not, Drew. And, I think we are looking at the wrong end of the problem, if you will. This is something all about protecting
theses infections from happening. Every single one of those cases could be protected.
So, instead of hype, one man`s hype become another person`s education. The message here for your viewers, the millions of viewers that you have is
that whenever you go to the doctor`s office and are going to have a procedure --
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: Ask questions.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: What devices will be using? Will you be sharing devices or they actually just infected? Do you attempt to sterilize them or not?
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. LLOYD: There are some simple steps you could take. Make sure you are the first one of the day to have one of these procedures. The best chance
that the equipment is properly sterilized overnight and just start clean.
But what we learned from the hospital in Los Angeles at UCLA was that there were teams that were using the same instruments. And, they were changing
them over so quickly instead of having a sufficient number of these scopes, they were cleaning them manually and getting away with it for good long
while.
PINSKY: No, no, no. That is not what is happening. What was happening was the way the machine is manufactured. There is a potential for certain
kinds of bacteria to stick on the metal. And, even when they stick the brushes through, when they use the glued around -- there is a potential for
the bacteria to hide there.
And, when it is say CRE, which is what these superbugs are called, Carbopenemj-Resistant Enterobacteriacease. They have been around forever.
Jamie, I will ask you.
You walk in an ICU, people are not telling you watch out for infection control. Watch out, there may be an Acinetobacter or Klebsiella sitting
around the unit. They are all over the place.
Listen, Bobbi Kristina Brown is going to end up with one of these infections in her lungs because that is what happens when people stay in an
ICU for a long period of time almost without exception.
It is around. Every hospital throughout the country. Just check the CDC. Why make a headline about three facilities that got on top of their
infection right away?
JAMIE OTIS, REGISTERED NURSE/ TELEVISION HOST: Absolutely. And, I think the other thing, the take home factor for this is that for the patients, me
as a nurse. When you walk into that room, you got to wash your hands. And, if you are the patient or if your child is the patient, make sure you
are asking, hold that nurse accountable.
Ask her, "Hey, listen. Are you washing your hands before you touch my daughter, my son, before you touch me?" Because it is not something that
you are going to get everyday walking on the street. It is something more common here you find in a hospital.
PINSKY: It is hospitals are where sick people reside and that is where resistant bacteria where high potency antibiotics were used. And, so the
bacteria developed resistance in the settings. That is just the way it goes.
Loni, you are the only non-medical person on my panel here. Does this all make sense to you? Do you have any questions about this? Do you see how
kind of ridiculous it is to make people fearful of going in a hospital if that is what they need to do?
COOMBS: I mean common sense, Dr. Drew. I do not like to go to hospitals for this reason, whether they call it superbug or whatever. You know that
there are germs there. You know that there a lot of sick people there. So, unless you really have to go to the hospital, you try and avoid it.
PINSKY: Here is how you avoid -- Here all of us can contribute to making this entire situation better. Stop using so damn many antibiotics. Stop
it already. Stop every time you get a cold or a virus or a sinus infection demanding an antibiotic. You do not need it.
It is not helping you. And, it is making the bacteria in the environment resistant. Stop it already. It is on us. And, if you want to get very
sophisticated, reduce your meat intake too, because they are animal.
The beef are being treated with antibiotics and with so much beef out there, that is another source -- a potential source of resistant bugs.
This is to may continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CHERRY: There were two endoscopes that were used that had a CRE infection embedded in them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You are literally talking about a toothbrush- type thing to clean this out. I mean an actual toothbrush, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is not an actual -- Listen, I have cleaned those endoscope. It is like -- it is more like a pipe cleaner than a toothbrush. And, the fact
is if you have the right angles and the right solutions, you can get them. But if you have certain kinds of bacteria, you may not be able to get at
it. And, that is a manufacturing flaw that needs to be dealt with. They will deal with it.
Back with Loni, Dr. Bill Lloyd, Jaimie Otis. We are talking about what a lot of people have been discussing as a so-called superbug. It is called a
CRE, Carbopenemj-Resistant Enterobacteriacease. It is linked to two deaths in the nation, in spite of these things being pervasive in most hospitals.
Dr. Lloyd, let us talk about adverse events that can happen any time whenever you interact with a medical professional. You talked a little bit
about it. But, people have to understand, it is almost impossible for a patient -- for there to be a zero probability of an adverse event when you
interact with a patient.
DR. LLOYD: Complications are part of the fabric of medical care because medicine is a human enterprise and humans make mistakes. The secret to the
art of medicine is understanding the risk of complications and communicating it to the patient and be able to detect the earliest signs of
complications so you can deliver effective care.
PINSKY: You know -- and Dr. Lloyd, what I used to tell my residents, I always say, I do not care what choice you make, you better have a good
reason for making the choice, but I want to know what your backup plan is.
I want to know always that you have a plan in place in case things do not go as you expect them to. Jamie you worked in various situations, hospital
settings. There are adverse events that occur, but the consequences can be mitigated when people are attentive.
OTIS: Right. I mean I think that this is a thing just like I said, wash your hands. We are looking for ways to prevent this, right? So, if we are
worried about it and for the general public, they really should not be worried about it. I know that it is scary.
PINSKY: But, that is right. That is the point. Stop it with the print, already. The print should be ashamed of themselves. And, I will tell you
what. If somebody, Loni -- I am sorry, Jamie to interrupt you like this, but this gets me crazy.
Loni, how come we cannot hold somebody responsible if they print something that makes people make a choice that harms themselves? That is the one
situation -- it is like yelling fire in a crowded theater. They should be held accountable for printing material that makes people make dangerous
decisions.
COOMBS: Well, yes, that would be nice. It has not happened. It probably will not happen. The media say things and everybody has their own
individual choice of how to respond to that and interpret it.
But, in this day and age of this social medial like this, where you can put out things in such an irresponsible way, I think everyone needs to be
aware, be careful what you read. Do your own research before you do anything crazy.
PINSKY: Well, and realize -- do you remember the Jimmy Kimmel piece they did about vaccines where they interviewed doctors? You know I have been
training for 12 years and I think I know what I am talking about.
Go to the source. Go to people who really studied this their whole life. They dedicate their life to the science. Go to the highest level
institutions. And, listen to what they say. Go to the CDC if you have questions about CRE. "Forensic Files" up next.
END
