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Dr. Drew
Transgender Gym Outrage over Male Transitioning to Female; bobbi Kristina`s Family to Make Decisions about Her Care; Cell Phone Video Exposes Ugly Racist Behavior From Fraternity Brothers at University of Oklahoma
Aired March 10, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, a transgender gym outrage. A male transitioning to female. Did she belong
in the women`s locker room? And news on Bobbi Kristina Brown. Is her family finally ready to make some decisions about her future and her care.
But, let us get started with "WTF," a story having a huge impact on social media. And, also there are two University Oklahoma students are expelled.
Cell phone video exposes ugly racist behavior from fraternity brothers. Everyone is talking about this. Take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROUP OF STUDENTS (singing): There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. You can hang them
from a tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but they will
never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, now a second video presumably from the same bus trip. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROUP OF STUDENTS (singing): You can hang them from a tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
You can hang them from a tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
(END VIDO CLIP)
PINSKY: And just hours ago, the University`s president sent letters to the two students believed to have leadership roles in these, quote, "Racist
Exclusionary Chant." The fraternity how shattered members told to move out.
Joining us to discuss Spirit, Psychotherapist; Larry Elder, Radio Host of Larry Elder Radio; Loni Coombs, former Prosecutor, author of "You`re
Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell." Spirit, appropriate response? Should kids have been kicked out? Should the house have been shattered?
SPIRIR CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I would not have kicked them out, honestly. I thought that this was a great teachable moment and the
university, unfortunately, to me, took the easy way out.
PINSKY: Now, wait a minute. Are not they --
CLANTON: Two people, "You are out of here," and that is it.
PINSKY: Is not this a form of teaching by taking action as they have?
CLANTON: No. Because let us be real about this. This university and what is happening here, Dr. Drew, is a microcosm of what is happening in America
each and every day. Racism is always going to exist.
And, so to simply say we are going to take two people off the bus where everybody, mind you, was chanting, and you are going to decide because they
were the ringleaders here.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: That they should be the ones to bear this burden? No way.
PINSKY: But, Spirit, it is not as though the conversation is stopping with the expulsion of these two guys that is going on. People are still talking
about this. There is still a teachable potential. Larry, do not you think there needs to be a consequence?
LARRY ELDER, RADIO HOST: Dr. Drew, as you pointed out, everybody is talking about this. They are talking about this in Bangladesh. The
chapter has been shut down by the school. They have been delisted by the fraternity national league.
They -- the fraternity put out a statement, the national did, apologizing, saying that, "We are ethnically diversed." Two people have been kicked out
already. There are serious consequences going on right now. It shows you there is zero tolerance for white racism in America. Zero.
PINSKY: OK.
ELDER: Somebody once said that white racism exists but the social power is weak. The social power against it overwhelming.
PINSKY: So, it exists because we see video evidence of it existing but you are saying the reactions suggest that it is intolerant. We are intolerant
of where we find it. The frat brother in that first video has been identified as freshman Parker Rice. CNN spoke to a boy who lives on his
floor, who says Rice is a friend. Here is what he says about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: That video does not represent his core personality. Unfortunately, though, as things are, that might define him
for a while, but it does not define him personally, I believe. Because before this situation, I defined him as anyone that has ever met -- someone
that has high character, high values, not a racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Parker Rice has just apologized in a statement. He says, in part, quote, "I am deeply sorry for what I did. I made a horrible mistake by
joining into the singing and encouraging others to do the same. At this moment, our family is not able to be in our home because of threatening
calls as well as frightening talk on social media. Likely it was fueled by alcohol consumed at the house before the bus trip." But, that is not an
excuse. Loni, yes -- OK -- for sure, but --
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes.
PINSKY: I broke the law. I am a 19-year-old drinking heavily and then I got involved in a ritualistic behavior that is not excusable. I do not
know. It is a little too little, too late.
COOMBS: Yes. Exactly. I mean this whole alcoholic excuse. I do not consider that an excuse at all for bad behavior. And, even his friend is
saying that it is not him. I mean it came from him. If it is not his position, why in the world would he ever think it is OK to do this?
PINSKY: Well --
COOMBS: I mean it is so clearly --
PINSKY: It came from -- to be fair, Larry, it came from them, right? It came from the group whipping themselves into a clearly is a ritualized
song. This is not something that he made up on the spot. This is something that has probably passed along, and how is that continued -- for
whatever period of time, it has been indoctrinated in that little community. How has it been there?
ELDER: Dr. Drew, you were at college. I was in college. College kids do a lot of stupid things. I just wish we could donate one smidgen of the
attention that we donate to fighting white racism, to dealing with things like black on black crime, the implosion of the black family and lousy
government schools that intercity parents are sending their kids to.
How about spending a little bit of time on that as oppose to combating something that is not serious anymore? The litmus tax provision in America
as far as I am concerned is interracial marriage.
In the `60s, less than 2 percent. Right now, 12 percent. In California where I am, 20 to 25 percent of the marriages are interracial. If we are
not getting along, if racism remains a major problem in America, how does something like that happen?
PINSKY: Well, Spirit --
ELDER: It does not.
PINSKY: -- you say, you would not go that far.
CLANTON: Yes. I would not go that far. See, because this is the thing. The fact of the matter is that, racism does still exist. So to even go in
that direction, I just will not even entertain that. But, I think if you really --
ELDER: I never say it did not. I said it is not a serious problem.
CLANTON: No, it is.
ELDER: I said it is not a serious problem.
CLANTON: It definitely is. You have people who are still killing people and dying in the streets because of racism. So, I will not go there.
ELDER: Example -- example, please.
CLANTON: But, what I will say --
ELDER: Example?
CLANTON: Wait, I am not finished.
ELDER: Example.
CLANTON: I am not finished.
ELDER: One example. One example.
CLANTON: What I will say is what they should have done here --
ELDER: It is ridiculous.
CLANTON: I am not finished. What they should have done here was use this as a teachable moment. What I would have done is, I would have looked at
integrating their fraternity.
And, guess who would have been at the center of race relations and tension? See, because what happens here with racism often times, Dr. Drew, you know
this better than anybody, it is about precedence. It is about lack of exposure to.
PINSKY: Well --
CLANTON: What these children need to do is, they need to step into an integrated world --
PINSKY: Spirit, I --
CLANTON: And not be allowed to continue to be a scrooge.
PINSKY: I agree with you. Listen, I do not think Spirit is going to give you that one example, Larry, but I agree with what you are saying, Spirit.
There needs to be integration, bu, why do we have these exclusionary clubs on college campuses in the first place?
ELDER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: This is something that really concerns me. Larry --
ELDER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Larry, go ahead.
ELDER: Dr. Drew, if the members of the fraternity had been black --
PINSKY: No. I am not saying and I am not --
CLANTON: True.
PINSKY: I am taking it away from the race issue, Larry, for a second and saying, when I go around, I speak in campuses around the country, whenever
I see a lot of heavy alcohol binging, a lot of hooking up culture, a lot of, you know, exclusionary, you know --
CLANTON: Right.
PINSKY: -- when people get into groupthink and they do things they do things they would not do as an individual like maybe we are seeing here.
Why do we -- have not fraternities outlived their utility perhaps, anybody?
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Loni?
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Loni, go ahead.
COOMBS: I agree 100 percent, Dr. Drew. I am not a fan of fraternities. From the very beginning, the fact that they --
PINSKY: Spring break will still exist, Larry, I am sure. As long as there is a Daytona Beach, Cancun, there will be plenty of spring breaks.
(CROSSTALKS)
COOMBS: There is plenty of ways -- there is plenty of ways --
PINSKY: Hang on. One at a time. One at a time.
COOMBS: There is plenty of times and places that college kids could act out, but they do not need to do it in this organized fashion. It starts
with the hazing. I mean how many times -- I am sure not every fraternity and sorority is like this.
But, how many times do we hear about these horrific hazing incidents where people are, you know, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, sexual exploitation. This
one university, SAE, Bloomberg said they have had nine deaths, deaths since between 2006 and 2014 during hazing incidents. I mean, how can we say that
this is still a good thing for our kids?
PINSKY: And, Larry, a lot of -- Larry, I see you sort of objecting it, but a lot of the higher education, you know -- the really elite institutions
have eliminated this stuff. How can we defend this? I am not telling people what to do. I think universities should make their own decisions.
But, it makes me wonder. I mean do we really need these things? Are they adversing affecting the health and safety and overall behavior of our kids?
I do not know. It is just something to think about.
Next up, you are going to hear from some fraternity members. We will address the issue. That particular house has until midnight to get out of
their house.
And, later, how long will Bobbi Kristina Brown`s family allow her to remain on life support? It is 39 days. How long, everybody? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What do you think of that, two students expelled?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): I think that is a great thing for the university to do. I think it is really good that the president is showing
a strong support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Even after seeing that video?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Absolutely, because I know it does not speak for the entire student body. It is just some microbial infestation
that is on campus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Did you watch the tape? What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): I did watch the tape and I watched it as it was going viral and I was just like, "Oh, no." You know? It sucks because
I am graduating in May. And, I feel like I am probably going to have to explain this when I move.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Spirit, Larry and Loni. We are discussing the fallout from cell phone video showing fraternity brothers at the University of
Oklahoma taking part in racist songs and chants.
So, the question I was bringing up is whether or not these Greek systems encourage not just this kind of behavior but other problematic behaviors,
that in my experience, Spirit, impacts negatively on the health of our young people.
And, if that is true, we can measurably show that. Do not we have some sort of obligation to really give it some thought about whether or not we
want these things to continue?
CLANTON: Well, we definitely have to give it thought, Dr. Drew. But, I honestly think that this is a trickle down thing. This is not just about
these children. And, remember, these are freshman that we are talking about, 18, 19, impressionable.
What about the adults that were on the bus? The bus kept moving. Where was the driver? Where was everyone else? And, so, I do not want to just
take fraternities and sororities and just discount all of the wonderful things that they do.
All the things that their alumni chapters do, all the service, all the good things about them. But we have to hold everybody accountable in this
situation. And, again, I think it is just too simple to say we will take these two students --
PINSKY: All right.
CLANTON: We will get them out. We will shut it down and that is it.
PINSKY: I totally agree with you. And CNN affiliate KOCO confronted some of the SAE brothers as they were packing up. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CNN REPORTER: Are you embarrassed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CNN REPORTER: Can you believe this is happening?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): I cannot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CNN REPORTER: You are not embarrassed at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): I am very embarrassed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CNN REPORTER: Do you have a place to go?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CNN REPORTER: Are you embarrassed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): Extremely. I cannot say anything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us by phone, I got David Stollman. He is a former fraternity member, who is co-founder of Campuspeak and
Hazingprevention.org. David, what is your take on this controversy?
DAVID STOLLMAN, FORMER FRATERNITY MEMBER/CO-FOUNDER OF CAMPUSPEAK AND HAZINGPREVENTION.ORG: Well, it is interesting. And, I think that the
calls for closing everything down, it is not going to fix anything. I think the reality is that fraternities are needed more today than ever.
PINSKY: In what sense? Why is that?
STOLLMAN: You know, more students come in to college in need of support, in need of a network that provides them members that are close people, that
are closer than just friends that encouraged them to be better people, provide a ritual ceremony.
And these ritual ceremonies actually do a path of helping one and hence the understanding of their own personal values, challenge them to strive for
higher achievement in all aspects of life.
And, then when they do have mistakes and they do fail in different ways, pick them up, dust them off and challenge them to do it again. The people
most offended by this, are the members.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. David, David, David. It is impossible to take issue with what you are saying. But as a matter of fact -- I go around the
country a lot and visit a lot of different universities and some of them, not all of then, but some of them, the university fraternity programs
support a behavior that I would call everything but healthy.
And, listen, the binge alcohol, the everyone dressing the same, everyone thinking the same. Yes, there may be a certain amount of support and there
may have a certain amount of -- sort of feeling connected and that I kind of an idealized fusion, but I have not measurably seen it to be healthy.
In fact, I have seen the measurably to be quite the opposite.
STOLLMAN: Well, I think if you look at the success rates of what is going on in the North American fraternity world, whether it is the graduation
rates, whether it is the academic achievement, whether it is the commitment to service and philanthropy, and whether it is the fact that we engage our
members in leading campuses.
And, yes, it is just like -- these are franchises, OK? These are franchises, just like the local McDonald`s and you may have a bad
experience and learned certain things about a local McDonald`s and say, "You know, it is not for me," but to shut the idea of all restaurants down
because of it is -- it is absurd.
PINSKY: All right. Larry, you want to comment, go ahead. Larry.
ELDER: Yes. Dr. Drew, there are black fraternities too.
PINSKY: Yes, of course.
ELDER: There is a famous movie done by Spike Lee called, "School Days," where it talked about the hazing that goes on between black fraternities.
If you are going to shut down fraternities, shut down black fraternities as well.
PINSKY: Of course.
ELDER: It is ridiculous. Talk about overreaction. Deal with these kids. They are being dealt with. There was a football player who was going to
come to Oklahoma. He is not coming because of this. I am sure there are other students who have made commitments to come, who are now not going to
come.
Probably, faculty members who might have come, who are not going to come. This is a real problem. It is not like giving money. It is a real
problem. It is not like it is not being dealt with.
PINSKY: Yes. And, you heard a graduating senior there saying that he is concerned about getting a job in the workforce because he has to explain
that he came from a culture where this was happening. Spirit, what do you say to this?
CLANTON: I say that this is happening everywhere. And, so, again, this is a great cause for dialogue, but this is not just about white people being
racist or black people being racist.
PINSKY: No. We are kind of moving it away --
CLANTON: This is America.
PINSKY: No. Listen, I agree with that. I agree with everybody. We are trying to move the conversation to a bigger platform as to whether or not
the entire concept has created this and it is not just so much about the racism that is being -- it is about the indoctrination more than the
racism. Loni, you know what I am saying?
COOMBS: Absolutely. And, like you talked about is that group mentality, when everyone gets together and they have connected in their bound. I
agree, college kids -- going to college nowadays are probably the least prepared they have ever been to be able to deal with the real world.
But, I do not think that when there is an emphasis on the kind of conduct that goes on in the hazing and it starts there and then it continues on.
That is not the kind of connectedness that these kids need.
PINSKY: Well, and to be fair. The hazing is, you know, as David is into an anti-hazing group. There is hazing that is being addressed. That is
less of a concern now, but there is a lot of collateral damage in all of this.
Yesterday the CBS News interviewed the fraternity houses mother known as "Mom B" about her job and how she lost it when the house closed. Here is
what she said about that and the video. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEAUTON GILBOW "MOM B", 78-YEAR-OLD FATERNITY HOUSE MOTHER: I heard the words. Unbelievable. This is not -- this is not SAE. This has been my
family. I cannot imagine tomorrow. I am very disappointed. I am very ashamed, embarrassed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And last night, though, someone posted a vine video from 2013 apparently showing, I guess, Mom B repeating something as she sings along
in a hip-hop song. Take a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GILBOW "MOM B" (singing): OK. This (EXPLETIVE WORD)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mom B issued a statement that says in part, quote, "I am heartbroken about a portrayal that I am in some way racist. I have friends
of all races and do not tolerate any form of discrimination in my life." So, Spirit, there is more than just the fraternity brothers getting dragged
into this thing.
CLANTON: Exactly.
PINSKY: And, I just cannot help but wonder if there is something more going on here than just this sort of issue of the indoctrination of racist
attitudes. I mean this is a song that this kid did not just make up tonight.
CLANTON: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And, by the way, he is a 19-year-old binging on alcohol. That is OK? That is already an issue there. He is using, saying, "Hey, everybody!
I am sorry, it is because I was drunk. I am 19. In my fraternity, we drink. That is what we do. We are a fraternity and we drink." Everyone
is supposed to go, "OK, Spirit. Yes, OK. I get it?"
CLANTON: Right.
PINSKY: If you look at every unwanted outcome for that age group, whether it is an accident or pregnancy or sexually transmitted disease or a sexual
assault or a fight, every single one you find alcohol and it so indoctrinated on college campuses and it lives nowhere more vividly than in
the fraternity system. That is what I am asking the universities to may be take a look at.
Next up, we got the latest news on Bobbi Kristina Brown`s condition, in a coma for 39 days. And, later, we will revisit the transgender locker room
controversy. People are taking sides on this one. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: She is going to be a vegetable. Let us just call it what it is. That is what is going to happen here and there is nothing any of us can do
about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: The family wants to support the child and allow her to stay alive and everybody else seems to be ready to
throw in the towel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: It is just about her life for this family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am not wishing that she should die. I am not wishing that at all. I am saying that she should be getting the appropriate level of care
for the condition, the reality of this condition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the story you are tweeting about most tonight. Bobbi Kristina Brown on ventilate, life support in an ICU for 39 days with no
meaningful brain function. Spirit still with me along now Karamo, social worker; Brooke Nichol, Registered Nurse from Savingfaceaustin.com.
For almost six weeks, Bobbi Kristina Brown has been unresponsive after a near death, a near full drowning. Brain is swollen and crushed and
diffusely nonfunctional to the point that she does not breathe, does not swallow, does not have reflexes for almost 40 days.
After that period of time, it does not come back. It just does not. This is not a situation there. Brooke, you are an R.N. There are a comas and
there are a comas. And, some comas have a zero probability of meaningful recovery. Some have an almost zero and if people want to fight through an
almost zero. I get that, but this is zero. And, how do we get people to come to terms with that?
BROOKE NICHOL, REGISTERED NURSE ON SAVINGFACEAUSTIN.COM: You know, it is going to be up to the health care providers and the family to finally make
a decision. And, you know, I cannot imagine how hard it is going to be to make that decision. But in the ICU, life support is meant for acute care.
They can go to a long-term acute care facility --
PINSKY: Yes.
NICHOL: -- if they are going to still take time to decide on what kind of care she needs.
PINSKY: Yes. That is right.
NICHOL: ICU mentality is to save lives.
PINSKY: Brooke, this has been my point from the beginning. She is so unstable that they cannot move her out of the ICU, which by the way,
prognostically is absolutely horrible after 40 days. I mean that is a death sentence if that is true.
NICHOL: Yes.
PINSKY: Or are they unwilling to take a risk of stepping her down as you are suggesting. In some way, you deal with in the ICU every day, I am sure
you have seen this a million times.
NICHOL: Yes. Yes, you can go to a step-down unit and still be on life support. I mean it is not a matter of not being able to move them in this
condition. I mean I just --
PINSKY: Well, maybe she cannot be, though. Maybe she is so unstable that she cannot be for some reason, we are not aware of. I mean it is weird
that she is still at the most intensive level of care available as though it would be too dangerous for her to move out, which is hard to imagine,
right?
NICHOL: Yes. Very hard to imagine. I mean, you know, it is -- with all the technology we have today, it is not hard to be transferred.
PINSKY: Yes.
NICHOL: Even if she is this unstable. I do not believe so.
PINSKY: This has been my question all along. Why at this level of care, unless the family is in such massive denial, massive denial or insisting on
such special care.
NICHOL: Right.
PINSKY: Karamo, people when they get special care, get terrible care. There is a reason the standard of care is the standard, it is because it is
the best. When people insist on V.I.P. or special care, they are going to get something substandard.
KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: I agree with you. I mean if you are looking at this --
NICHOL: I agree.
BROWN: If you are looking at this family, such as with Bobby Brown and the Brown family and the Houston family, not to say that they are bad people
but there is a little ego attached, and they think that they can save her. We saw this with Whitney Houston. We saw that they denied and did not like
look at where her real issues were, and now we are seeing this again.
Unfortunately, what needs to happen is that the health care workers, the social workers there, people need to probably start going to like their
pastors and other people that can helpfully convince them of what is really going on, because right now they are in a delusional state.
PINSKY: Yes. And, the boyfriend --
NICHOL: I agree. I agree.
PINSKY: Thank you, Brooke. You are, again -- we, all three of us, Karamo, I am sure you have consulted in ICU. I have walked in to intensive care
unit almost every day in my professional life for 15 years. Brooke, you have served in there. We see this stuff. It is one of the dirty little
secrets of ICUs.
As Brooke said, it is meant for life-saving interventions in the moment. If it gets dragged out, it was not intended for that and the prognosis is
horrible. Now, back to Nick Gordon and all this business.
He agreed to join his mother for an interview with Dr. Phil, but it turned to what is apparently was an intervention, when it became clear that Nick
was really in trouble. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHILLIP "PHIL" MCGRAW, HOST OF DR. PHIL SHOW/FORMER PSYCHOLOGIST: Your son left to his own devices he will be dead inside a week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Bobbi Kristina`s boyfriend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: He seems to be unraveling in a really bad way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE GORDON, NICK GORDON`S MOTHER: He is going to kill himself for all of this. He is trying to kill himself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Now --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON, BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN`S BOYFRIEND: Mommy! I am so sorry for everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Nick Gordon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORDON: I miss Krissy and Whitney so much. I want them back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: The exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORDON: I hate Bobby Brown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: You have been drinking a lot, though right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: That turns --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: You got to man up.
GORDON: Do not tell me to man up.
DR. PHIL: I just did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Into an intervention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: I want you to go straight to rehab.
GORDON: I am done with the interview. I am done. I am done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Phil described this interview as volatile. He described this kid as in enormous amount of guilt and pain and clearly in an altered state of
consciousness, of course not sober. And, Spirit, I know I have a hard time believing what we are looking at there was all alcohol. It look like more
than -- at least alcohol and pills.
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: And, then what is he -- what is he doing? What is he thinking? All that histrionics and that excessive emotionality, just to what?
Deflect against people seeing how wasted he is?
CLANTON: Well, you have to remember, though, Dr. Drew, that life attracts like. And, so, if you think about the history of the past, unfortunately,
of the lifestyle that Bobbi Kristina has come out of, what would you imagine that her current partners would look like?
I mean this is the manifestation of what she is most comfortable with. And, so, yes, you know, for him it is just a breakdown. It is a being
confronted by all of these emotions. He sees his mother, probably one of the few people that he can be transparent with, and he loses it,
unfortunately.
PINSKY: I do not buy any of it. I am sorry, Spirit. Maybe, I seem hard. I think it is all a reason to obfuscate and continue using. And, now the
mother is involved suddenly. This is the same woman that handed him over at age 12.
CLANTON: Right.
PINSKY: We got answers -- We got questions. And later, the gym controversy that has erupted after a woman says a man used the ladies`
locker room. We will get into that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: He needs to be talking to the police, not Dr. Phil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. LLOYD: This is another story of a celebrity in trouble who goes into rehab to escape law enforcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Take a look at the tweet that got Dr. Phil`s attention. It is from Nick. He says, quote, "I am so hurt. I want to do myself in. I know
I have to be strong."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: All of this is a diversion tactic from the real issue at hand, which is Bobbi Kristina and the marks that were found on her body that
suggest that there was some foul play.
He is trying to make us look around at everything around what is happening with the tweets, with this interview. Now, he is the one that is the
victim. No. I am not buying it.
PINSKY: All right.
BARNETT: I do not want to hear it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I completely agree with Vanessa. I am back with Spirit, Karamo Brown, Brooke Nichol. I got a tweet from a hospital pastor. I just want
to share with you. "As a hospital chapel and pastoral care is important in a medical setting. You cannot believe the layers there are in families."
Oh, no, I cannot believe it. And, unfortunately, if you do not leave specific directions, all of us, if we do not leave directions, it is
incumbent upon our family to make our decisions on our behalf, and they may not be equipped to do it.
Now, Dr. Phil in his interview with Nick Gordon, Dr. Phil says, "During the interview with Nick Gordon, Nick played a Whitney Houston Song on his phone
and then started weeping." Poor nick, Spirit. Why the histrionics? What is he up to here? I do not buy any of it. I am with Vanessa on this one.
CLANTON: Well, he is a mess. I do not think it is necessarily that he is up to anything. He cannot stop the police from arresting him and doing
everything that they need to do if that is what it comes down to.
But, what you are finally seeing is the introduction to Nick that no one has ever seen. Nobody has cared about him up until this point until Bobbi
Kristina was injured. From a year ago did you know him? Did you hear about him?
PINSKY: I just see a drug addict. I just see drug addict with the back against the wall. And, Karamo, I do not know if you agree with me or not,
but I assume you do. My question is, why is Nick Gordon`s mother suddenly involved in his wife? Is not this the woman that handed him over to
Whitney when he was 12?
BROWN: Yes. Well, I am a bit conflicted with the mother. Because part of me thinks to myself as someone who is raising a child who is not
biologically mine, I understand that if my child was in need that his mother would step up in a heartbeat and be there for him because that is
the love.
PINSKY: Sure. OK.
BROWN: But at the other part of me and the other part of me that is a little more cynical says, "Why now? Why this moment?"
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BROWN: And why on national T.V.?
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: Why not in your own home? Why not get him somewhere where you can support him? Is Dr. Phil the only doctor you had access to? That is the
issue I have. And, I think that there is something there where she is now wanting attention. She is trying to get a bit of the fame that is coming
along with this.
PINSKY: It is awful, but that is true. And, by the way, I am very supportive of Phil getting this guy into treatment. I do not care how
somebody gets into treatment. If you get them there, whether you put them on T.V. or pay him whatever, fantastic.
But, keep him there, that kid needs to be in treatment for a long time. Bobbi Kristina`s aunt has a message for Phil on her Facebook. It says --
Take a listen, I will read it to you. We will hear this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEOLAH BROWN, BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN`S AUNT: "With all due respect, Nick Gordon is under investigation for the attempted murder of my niece, Bobbi
Kristina Brown. We have strong evidence of foul play. Until this investigation is completed by law enforcement, I would ask that you or
anyone else not provide this individual a platform to spin the situation to his benefit.
If Nick Gordon does not have the courage to speak with my brother, Bobby Brown, and/or law enforcement about what happened the day my niece`s body
was found in the bathtub, he does not deserve to have a platform to speak to anyone of your caliber until this investigation is concluded."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: And to clarify, the police are actively investigating the near drowning, of course, of Bobbi Kristina, but have not confirmed that Nick,
himself, is under investigation.
I do not know, the whole thing -- and then in the end, the family goes on to say this does not happen under their watch. Bobbi Kristina`s aunt,
Whitney`s death and Bobbi Kristina`s incident did not happen on their watch, is what the family is saying. Karamo, go ahead.
BROWN: Yes. That is part of that denial that I have been talking about this entire past 39 days.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: Is that the family is in denial. They do not want to say that this happened on their watch. This completely happened on your watch. Same way
it happened with Whitney and the same way it happened with countless other family members that I am hearing about now. It is the unfortunate reason
why this young woman is still sitting in intensive care in 39 days in and no one is making a decision.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Brooke, if you -- you worked in ICU, I guess, you must have been in these situations where families -- they are conflicting
amongst themselves. No one can reach a decision. The physicians are scared to death that if they take moves where they are withdrawing care and
something bad happens, they are going to get sued.
NICHOL: Right.
PINSKY: It is a high-profile case. The hospital is on them. Nursing is in the middle of all of it. I have the greatest compassion for nurses
because they are the ones rendering the care and dealing with the frustration of the futility of what they are doing.
NICHOL: Oh, absolutely, because you have to find that balance of compassion. But to be a realist and to bring the reality to the situation
and the reality of the situation is quality of life. Clearly, she was suffering before and how much longer are we going to allow her to suffer?
You know?
PINSKY: Yes.
NICHOL: And, like I said, as a parent, I could not imagine making that decision but at the same time, you have to not be selfish. And, you have
to look at what her life is going to be if, you know, you keep her this way. You could keep someone alive for a year.
PINSKY: Indefinitely, Brooke. I could monkey with things and keep things going indefinitely. But, I tell you what, it is the coolest thing I could
possibly do. It is cruel. You are talking about playing God, that is playing God, everybody.
That is how we play God, not by withdrawing care but keeping people in suspended animation for extended periods of time knowing that it is futile.
It is futility. We can prognosticate. We know it is futile. We got to do what is reasonable.
And, in this case, I tell you what, this is not a reasonable situation. I feel for everyone involved, but somebody has got to step up on behalf of
the patient. As you see, Brooke has worked in ICU as I have. We have dealt with this many times and somebody has to have the courage to step up
on behalf of the person who is really at the center of this, the patient.
Next up, the debate over a man in a woman`s locker room is getting heated. We will talk to a first transgender reporter, Zoey Tur, and see what she
thinks about this topic. Also, we post new pictures every night. See what goes on before and after our show. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A transgender scandal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YVETTE CORMIER, A 48-YEAR-OLD COMPLAINANT OF MIDLAND PLANET FITNESS: Gunned and shocked. And, he totally looked like a man. He was not dressed
like a woman at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is a male transitioning to a female belong in the women is locker room?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORMIER: They proceeded to tell me that they have to embrace whatever sex somebody thinks they are, and that they are allowed to use whatever
restroom that they would want to use.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOMBS: Well, I think if, you know, the first impression that this is a man and here I am changing my clothes, I do not want to get naked in front
of a strange man.
PINSKY: What is it? Is it penis? Is it that he looks like a man? She looks like a man? Is it OK that chromosome -- How far? How transgender do
you have to be?
COOMBS: This is just the beginning of the tip of the iceberg. This is going to happen every public place.
PINSKY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORMIER: This is very unprofessional. It is very scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with "Seriously?" A story that might be hard to believe, unless in fact it were true and it is. Joining us Sam Schacher from "Pop
Trigger" on Hulu, Nicole Ramos, transgender YouTube star and Zoey Tur, first transgender reporter and special correspondent for "Inside Edition."
Yvette Cormier was booted from "Planet Fitness" after complaining that, quote, "A man was using a woman`s locker room." Planet Fitness says the
company policy provides for what they call, quote, "A judgment-free zone." They say Cormier became disruptive.
And, Sam, tonight, many people have switched -- First people were saying, good on you, for the planet fitness, for having an open-minded policy. But
now people are coming to Cormier`s defense. Is that right?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER": Oh that is right, Dr. Drew. Just take a look at our Facebook page. OK? We have been inundated all day
with comments from people who support Yvette. They believed that Yvette had every right to be disruptive, to alert the other female members that
there was a, quote, "Man in the locker room."
I have a post here that I like to share from Mary. She writes, quote, "If Planet Fitness really had a no judgment zone, they would not be judging
this woman`s objection, and instead they would have a transgender bathroom for whoever is comfortable with that instead of revoking this woman`s
membership. I am sorry, but this is just wrong anyway you look at it."
Also Dr. Drew, some of the comments -- actually, a large number of the comments that I have seen have been very insult-heavy, calling this
transgender woman, a he/she an it, gross. And, at that level of ignorance, Dr. Drew, to me, that is heartbreaking, because where is the compassion,
whether you agree or disagree?
PINSKY: All right. And Nicole, I imagine you have had to slog through your fair share of this yourself. But, even so, I mean I wonder where you
come down on this story given that it seems like -- I think Loni had an interesting point. It was just about modesty and sort of feeling
threatened and really it was not about judging this person. Where do you come down on it?
NICOLE RAMOS, TRANSGENDER YOUTUBE STAR: Well, you know, as a transgender YouTuber, I definitely have come across my share of these kinds of
comments. So, I am definitely not surprised by the comments that have been happening from this story.
But what I want to say is that, you know, she was not -- her membership was not revoked because of where she stood in this. It was revoked because of
how she handled it. So, because of the disrespect of how she handled it, that is why her membership was revoked. It is perfectly fine to not be
comfortable about sharing a locker room with a transgender person. So, I just want to point that out.
PINSKY: OK. Well, that is interesting to me that you call it perfectly fine. Zoey, I wonder what your take is.
ZOEY TUR, FIRST TRANSGENDER REPORTER: Well, my feeling is that I think people have a right to be concerned and I think there should be private
areas. The person at the very center of this controversy, the transgender person and that is really the problem is, your definition of transgender is
a transvestite, a cross dresser. A male that has a sexual fetish dressing as a female.
PINSKY: How do we know that?
TUR: I did some research and I made -- I am very careful about these sorts of things. And, I looked at post in social media and also spoke to the
receptionist at the Planet Fitness. So, yes, you are dealing with a cross- dresser. I have many friends that are cross-dressers and it is not a transsexual. It is a male that gets off dressing as women`s clothe.
PINSKY: So, Zoey, is not it possible -- again, the way Planet Hollywood frames their no judgment policy, as long as you have a sincere opinion
about your gender, they will go with it and maybe this person was sincerely moving in that direction. There is still sort of cross dressing or
presenting as a woman stage and living as a woman rather than moving into the transgender category.
TUR: No. That is not the case.
PINSKY: Tell me.
TUR: This person is a cross dresser that gets a sexual high from dressing as a female, and there is quite a few people like that.
PINSKY: But, Zoey. I am sorry to interrupt you, but I got to go to break. But would not that be criminal, going into a women`s locker room to get
high -- to get his kicks out of dressing like a woman and getting off on that, I mean in a female locker room, right?
TUR: Well, possibly. But, you know, with a federal law and the civil rights act of 1964, title 2, you know, Planet Fitness had no choice but to
have that policy. Much of this is self-identifying and, you know, we have to police our own, I suppose, but I can understand both sides of the issue.
PINSKY: All right, Zoey, I want you to hold that thought. I want you to explain this more to me. Because if somebody is saying, "I am in the
process of changing and it is my sincere belief that is what I am doing" as opposed to, "hey, I am just getting off by going to a women`s locker room,
if I dress like a woman, that is how I get in there." Those are two very different things. We are back with more of this after this, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORMIER: Gunned and shocked. And, he totally looked like a man. He was not dressed like a woman at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: That woman, Yvette Cormier, alleges she lost her membership at a Planet Fitness Gym after complaining about seeing a man
in the women`s locker room. But Planet Fitness says, the transgender woman she encountered has every right to use the women`s locker room and points
to the gym`s judgment free zone policy.
LGBT advocates applaud the policy and say it protects the safety of transgender women, who could be at risk in a men`s locker room. But
Cormier`s supporters say the gym`s policy is dead wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I do not think just because you say that you identify yourself as a woman that you can just go into the woman`s locker
room every time you feel like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: That is what is at issue. I am back with Sam Schacher, Nichol Ramos and Zoey Tur. Planet Fitness told CNN that their gym members can
choose a locker room based on, quote, "Their sincere self-reported gender identity."
Samantha, before the break, Zoey gave me some information about her own reporting that we cannot confirm this but it confused me. Do you share my
confusion?
SCHACHER: Yes. You know that changes everything, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Because I am a huge advocate for this transgender woman that I believe is a transgender woman from the information that I read but if that
is not the case, the only people that should be in the women`s locker room, either you are a female or you identify the female. Anybody else outside
of that parameters should not be in there if that indeed is the case.
PINSKY: And, so, Zoey, we cannot independently corroborate what you are saying. But you are saying that this is somebody who took advantage of
their open-minded policy?
TUR: I believe so. I was able to share with one of your producers some of the social media texts that this person made. And this is a male that is
heterosexual that likes women. And, you know, it is a difficult situation.
So, really the problem is, how do you define transgender? And since transgender has now been folded into the 1964 civil rights act by the
department of justice and now transgender people are privileged to have civil rights protection under title 2.
PINSKY: Reasonably.
TUR: Right -- well, even more than reasonably.
PINSKY: Yes.
TUR: Remember, bad -- you know, bad information or bad situations make bad law.
PINSKY: Right.
TUR: But this is a difficult situation. So, really, what is the definition of transgender? The problem is, that transgender, the umbrella
encompasses people with sexual fetishes, people that go in and out of being female or male transsexuals, people with gender dysphoria, brain anomalies.
So, really, what is the definition. So, maybe what is happening here, is the United States, which is relatively in its infancy is being dragged into
the 21st century to court decisions and will turn into a country more like we see in Germany, where if you go to a major hotel there, you will
encompass -- you will encounter, excuse me, men and women in locker rooms and shower areas. You know, they are co-eds, they are nude areas.
PINSKY: Well, perhaps. Nicole, I want to give you a chance. I got about 30 seconds here. What do you say?
RAMOS: Actually, I just want to point out. I think if this is true, it is really unfortunate, because if things like this as to why it is harder for
transgender people who are fully transitioning to kind of be able to be heard and stuff like that because we are so busy lumping cross-dressers in
with us. So, I think it is really sad and unfortunate.
PINSKY: And the medical system needs to catch up with the legal system needs to -- I agree with Zoey, it is still a process. That is what we
decide on last night on the After Show. And, by the way, be sure to check us out on the after show. We will continue this conversation. You can DVR
this show then watch us anytime. And the "Social Life" with Ali Nejad is up next. It begins now.
END
