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Kerry, Carter Testify Before Senate Foreign Relations Committee on ISIS Strategy

Aired March 11, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

The opening bell ringing just moments ago. Markets are poised to edge higher this morning. A slight rebound after yesterday's dramatic losses. Investors are eyeing the euro this morning. It's trading at a 12-year low. Of course that's good news for Americans traveling abroad but it could put a dent in corporate profits. We'll keep you posted.

OK, right now on Capitol Hill, the Obama strategy to defeat ISIS is under the microscope. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee opens its hearing on formally authorizing the use of military force. And top Obama officials will face a grilling from skeptics on both sides of the aisle.

Here's the Obama proposal. It will set a three-year limit on the president's authority to wage war against ISIS. Some Republicans fear that is limiting. And the White House would be limited on the use of ground troops but they would not be banned all together. Some Democrats worry that this power is too open ended.

So let's talk about all of this. Joe Johns is CNN's senior Washington correspondent, Elise Labott is our global affairs correspondent and Lieutenant General Michael Barbero served three tours in Iraq. He joins us now. Also Colonel Cedric Leighton is a former member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Thanks to all of you for being with me.

Joe, I want to start with you. Tell us again the purpose of this hearing. Uh-oh, Code Pink, Code Pink's in the room already, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Oh, my gosh, yes, Code Pink is an ever present presence, if you will, on Capitol Hill, especially on issues of war.

Look, we're expecting to see the secretaries of state, defense, and the chairmen of the Joint Chiefs at this hearing. Important to say the president's proposal is a draft, considered a starting point. The authorization of military force the White House is calling for is very limited in scope. It sunsets or expires in three years. As you said, Carol, ground forces would not be used except in the most limited ways.

What is slightly unclear here is what would happen to the broad authorization of use of force that was passed in 2001 in the Bush administration. For example, whether the old one would be superseded if a new one is passed. The White House says that's something that will have to be worked out at another time. But if that's true, then the president would seemingly have both resolutions to justify use of force at his disposal at any given time for the rest of his administration.

The administration appears, in this, to be threading a needle between those on the left, who are weary of war and don't want any more of it, and those on the right who say the administration needs to be able to threaten the full use of the military against ISIS, Carol.

COSTELLO: OK. And on hand to testify is the secretary of state, John Kerry, Ashton B. Carter, who's the secretary of defense now, and General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They will be grilled after opening statements from the chairman of this committee, Senator Bob Corker, a Republican. And the ranking Democratic member, Bob Menendez, will also give a five-minute opening statement. And then each of those witnesses will give opening statements and, of course, take questions from the sitting senators.

General, I don't mean to be cynical here, but is this hearing a waste of time? Because last I checked, America is already participating in a war against ISIS?

LT. GEN. MICHAEL BARBERO, U.S. ARMY: Well, I'm not a constitutional expert, but we are using force in Iraq, have been doing -- and Syria -- for months now. The question is, and the questions that need to be asked, is the strategy and the application of this force sufficient to achieve the stated end state of the strategy, which is to defeat ISIS? I don't think it is. I don't think 2,800 forces and a series of airstrikes will be sufficient. So it is worthy of having that discussion.

COSTELLO: It is worthy having that discussion because I think, colonel, most Americans want to know a strategy. They want it laid out in black and white. Will these hearings achieve anything near that?

COLONEL CEDRIC LEIGHTON, FMR. DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR TRAINING, NSA: I don't think so, Carol. And the reason I don't think so is that this document, the AUMF, is really a document that is supposed to give an authorization to use military power. The strategy part of it should have been developed long ago. And what you're seeing here is in essence a result of some very muddled processes here in Washington, and that's very unfortunate because these processes are pretty well- defined in the Constitution and the military is used to really reacting to these processes and implementing what the result is. And we should be doing that. We should be doing it very carefully. We should understand exactly what we're getting into, but we also should do it without our hands tied behind our backs.

COSTELLO: And, Elise, it's fascinating to me that the secretary of state, John Kerry, will testify. Of course he's the one, in part, negotiating with Iran on this nuclear deal. And all but two of the Republicans sitting on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee signed this letter to Iran. It's just sort of ironic, right?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's ironic and interesting, Carol, because what the Obama administration has really tried to do here is kind of really separate the Iranian nuclear issue from the issue going on in Syria with ISIS. And even though Secretary Kerry speaks with his Iranian counterpart, Foreign Minister Zarif, they're really not getting into that much detail on what's going on, on the ground in Syria. And the question is I think that the Obama administration is hoping is, if they can get that nuclear deal behind them, can the U.S. work with Iran on trying to combat ISIS. Clearly Iran no friend of ISIS and works on behalf of the president, Bashar al Assad, in Syria. The question is, is Iran ready for something like that. And when you hear the supreme leader of Iran talking, it looks like they're not. So I think Secretary Kerry will be grilled by these senators on the correlation between the nuclear agreement, those nuclear negotiations, and Iranian behavior in the region. You can't separate that also from the Syrian civil war. And I think Secretary Kerry will be asked a lot about Iranian behavior on behalf of the Syrian regime, Carol.

COSTELLO: I'm sure. OK, you guys stand by. I need to take a break right now. We'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM.

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COSTELLO: The gavel comes down, the temperature heats up. Top Obama officials on Capitol Hill to face a grilling over the use of military force against ISIS. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee is examining the president's formal request for that authority. The White House proposal carries limits and faces concerns from both Republicans and fellow Democrats. I want to bring back in CNN's Joe John, Elise Labott, Lieutenant General Michael Barbero. I'm also joined by Josh Rogin (ph), a CNN political analyst and columnist for "The Bloomberg View."

Welcome back and thank you for being here.

So, Bob Menendez, the ranking member, is giving his opening statement right now. It's interesting to note, Joe Johns, that the U.S. Justice Department is thinking about bringing charges against him.

JOHNS: Right, the U.S. Justice Department apparently is thinking about bringing charges against him. There are allegations of corruption surrounding his involvement with a political donor and the question, of course, is whether Mr. Menendez did anything wrong. Usually, in these corruption situations, the Justice Department is investigating whether there were any official acts that were committed by the person in power in exchange for things of value. So Justice Department is looking into that. CNN's reporting is that he is likely to face some type of exposure on those issues.

COSTELLO: Can I interrupt you, Joe? We're going to let --

JOHNS: Yes, go ahead. COSTELLO: Joe, Joe, can I interrupt you? We want to listen to Secretary of State John Kerry.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are pleased to be here. I'm pleased to return here, and particularly so with -- in the distinguished company of Defense Secretary Ash Carter and our chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marty Dempsey.

From my 29 years of service on this committee, I have nothing but respect for the committee's prerogatives and particularly the role that it can play on a critical issue like this. We are very simply looking for, as I think both of you, Mr. Chairman, ranking member, have said, the appropriate present day authorization, not, as you said, Senator Menendez, 2001, but 2015 statement by the United States Congress about the authority with which we should be able to go after, degrade, and destroy as the president has said a group known as ISIL or Daesh.

Now, Mr. Chairman, in our democracy, there are many views about the challenges and the opportunities that we face. And that's appropriate. That's who we are. But I hope we believe that there is an overwhelming consensus that Daesh has to be stopped.

Our nation is strongest, always has been, when we act together. There's a great tradition in this country of foreign policy having a special place, that politics ends at the water's edge and that we will act on behalf of our nation, without regard to party ideology.

We simply cannot allow this collection of murderers and thugs to achieve in their group -- their ambitions, which includes, by the way, most likely, the death or submission of all those who oppose it, the seizure of land, the theft of resources, the incitement of terrorism across the globe, the killing and attacking of people simply for what they believe or for who they are.

And the joint resolution that is proposed by the president provides the means for America and its representatives to speak with a single powerful voice at this pivotal hour.

When I came here last time, I -- I mentioned that...

PROTESTER: The American people are speaking out, Secretary Kerry. We're tired of the endless war. We don't want to go into a war with no...

SEN. BOB CORKER (R-TN), CHAIRMAN, FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: The committee will be in order.

Look, we appreciate...

PROTESTER: (OFF-MIKE) another endless war, the killing of innocent people.

CORKER: OK. If this happens again, I would ask the police to escort immediately people out of the room.

PROTESTER: (OFF-MIKE) dollars on the war, creating more terrorism, killing more innocent people.

KERRY: Killing more innocent people? I wonder how our journalists who were beheaded and the pilot, who was fighting for freedom, who was burned alive -- what they would have to say to their efforts to protect innocent people.

ISIL's momentum has been diminished, Mr. Chairman.

It's still picking up supporters in places. Obviously, we've -- we've all observed that. But in the places where we have focused and where we are asking you to focus, at this moment in time, it is clear that even while savage attacks continue, there is the beginning of a process to cut off their supply lines, to take out their leaders, to cut off their finances, to reduce the foreign fighters, to counter the messaging that has brought some of the fighters to this effort.

But to ensure its defeat, we have to persist until we prevail in the broad-based campaign along multiple lines of efforts that have been laid out over the course of the last months.

The president already has statutory authority to act against ISIL. But a clear and formal expression of this Congress's backing at this moment in time would dispel doubts that might exist anywhere that Americans are united in this effort.

Approval of this revolution resolution would encourage our friends and our partners in the Middle East, it would further energize the members and prospective members of the global coalition that we have assembled to oppose Daesh, and it would constitute a richly deserved vote of confidence in the men and women of our armed forces who are on the front lines, prosecuting this effort on our behalf.

Your unity would also send an unmistakable message to the leaders of Daesh. They have to understand they can't divide us. Don't let them. They cannot intimidate us, and they have no hope of defeating us.

The resolution that we have proposed would give the president a clear mandate to prosecute the armed component of this conflict against Daesh and associated persons or forces, which we believe is carefully delineated and defined.

And while the proposal contains certain limitations that are appropriate in light of the nature of this mission, it provides the flexibility that the president needs to direct a successful military campaign. And that's why the administration did propose a limitation on the use of, quote, "enduring offensive ground-combat operations."

I might add, that was after the committee -- then committee chair Senator Menendez and the committee moved forward with its language, and we came up here and testified and responded basically to the dynamics that were presented us within the committee and the Congress itself.

So the proposal also includes no geographic limitation, not because there are plans to take it anywhere, but because -- because it would be a mistake to communicate to ISIL...

PROTESTER: (OFF-MIKE) United States and all of the world. The United States is killing innocent civilians with drones...

CORKER: I would just ask those in the audience, we live in a country where people...

PROTESTER: You are killing innocent people...

(CROSSTALK)

CORKER: ... have the opportunity to express themselves in democratic ways. We would hope that you would allow this hearing to proceed in an orderly way, and respect other citizens' rights to be here and to observe what is happening in a -- in a civil manner.

I would say that I don't think you're helping your cause at all. I would say you're hurting your cause. And hopefully you will remain in an appropriate manner.

Thank you.

KERRY: Mr. Chairman, thank you.

The point of the no geographic limitation is not that there are any plans or any contemplation -- I think the president has been so clear on this. But what a mistake it would be to send the message to Daesh that there are safe havens, that there is somehow just a two- country limitation so they go off and put their base, and then we go through months and months of deliberation again.

We can't afford that. So that's why there's no limitation.

And, Mr. Chairman, we know that there are groups in the world, affiliated terrorist groups, who aspire to harm the United States, our allies, our partners. Daesh is, however, very distinctive in that, because it holds territory and it will continue, if not stopped, to seize more, because it has financial resources, because of the debilitating impact of its activities in the broader Middle East, because of its pretensions to worldwide leadership and because it has already been culpable in violent deaths of Americans and others.

And I don't need to preview for this committee the full litany of the outrages that are committed by Daesh. But let me just say that just among them, scratching the surface, are atrocities against the Syrian Christian and Yazidi religious communities. The crucifixion of children. The sale and enslavement of women and girls. The hideous murder of captives from as near as Jordan and as distant as Japan.

And the destruction of irreplaceable cultural and historical sites. The plunder and destruction of cities and towns in which followers of Islam worship and raise their families.

Now, I testified before this committee just a couple of weeks ago regarding our strategy for disrupting and defeating ISIL. That strategy continues to move forward on all fronts.

Secretary Carter and General Dempsey will touch on the military elements, but I can say from a diplomatic perspective that the world is strongly united in seeking Daesh's defeat. Our coalition is receiving help from governments throughout and beyond the Middle East, governments that may disagree on other issues, but not about the need to take decisive action against Daesh.

And to date, we have a coalition of some 62 members, including 14 nations that are contributing directly to the operations against Daesh, in Iraq or in Syria, 16 of which have committed to help train or otherwise assist Iraqi security forces.

Since the coalition came together, less than half a year ago, we have stopped ISIL's surge. We have degraded its leadership. We have forced it to change its communications and its movement and its tactics, and heavily damaged its revenue-generating oil facilities.

And if you have a classified briefing, I think you'll get a very good grounding in the progress that is being made to date.

We continue to see progress in governance in Iraq, where new leaders are working to strengthen and reform the country's security forces through the purging of incompetent or corrupt officers, and the more extensive inclusion of Sunni fighters.

In Tikrit, right now, there are nearly 1,000 Sunni taking part. There's a cross-section of engagement.

So, Mr. Chairman, just to respond, to move rapidly here...

CORKER: We're not moving that rapidly, actually.

KERRY: That's why I'm cutting, and I'm gonna cut to the chase.

CORKER: OK. Good.

KERRY: Responding to the threat posed by ISIL is just not a partisan issue, at least it shouldn't be. It's not even a bipartisan issue. It's really a test that transcends political affiliations. And it's a tremendous challenge to the security of our nation and to the values of our citizens. And so, it's really the kind of challenge that this committee is here to deal with.

And my hope is that we will live up to the tradition that we have never failed to meet in the past, that when we had this kind of challenge, the Congress came together, the Senate, particularly, I think, in this format. And I'm confident that we can do so here again today and in the next few days.

So I'm happy to respond to your questions, but first I'll turn to Secretary Carter.

CORKER: Thank you.

Secretary Carter, thank you. ASHTON CARTER, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Menendez, all the members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be with you today on this important subject.

Before I begin, I'm sure you're all aware that a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter was involved in an accident last night near Egland Air Force Base in Florida. We know there were four air crew, Army, from a National Guard unit, in Hammond, Louisiana, and seven Marines, assigned to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, on board that helicopter.

And I know that with me, our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families as the search and rescue continues, just as I know we're all proud to have the finest fighting force the world has ever known.

That is why, at the end of my first week as secretary of defense, I traveled to Afghanistan and Kuwait, where I thanked our men and women in uniform for their contributions to important missions. And in Kuwait, I talked with our ambassadors and our military leaders in the region about the campaign against ISIL.

The trip confirmed for me that ISIL represents a serious and complex threat, especially in our interconnected and networked world. But it also confirmed to me that the enemy can be defeated, and we will deliver ISIL the lasting defeat. And I'm happy to share my thoughts about that campaign with you.

But let me turn to the subject of this hearing, which is the authorization for the use of military force. And in reviewing the president's proposed AUMF as secretary of defense, I asked myself two questions. First, does it provide the necessary authority and flexibility to wage our campaign, allowing for a full range of likely military scenarios? And, second, will it send the message to the people I'm responsible for, our brave men and women in uniform and civilian personnel who will wage this campaign, that the country is behind them?

I believe the president's AUMF does both, and I urge Congress to pass it. And let me explain why I judged that the proposed AUMF gives the authority and flexibility needed to prevail in this campaign.

First, the proposed AUMF takes into account the reality, as Secretary Kerry has noted already, that ISIL is an organization -- as an organization is likely to evolve strategically, morphing, rebranding and associating with other terrorist groups, while continuing to threaten the United States and our allies.

Second, the proposed AUMF wisely does not include any geographical restriction, because ISIL already shows signs of metastasizing outside of Syria and Iraq.

Third, the president's proposed authorization provides great flexibility in the military means we need as we pursue our strategy, with one exception. The proposed AUMF does not authorize long-term, large-scale offensive ground combat operations like those we conducted in Iraq and Afghanistan, because our strategy does not call for them. Instead, local forces must provide the enduring presence needed for an enduring victory against ISIL.

And fourth and finally, the proposed AUMF expires in three years. I cannot tell you that our campaign to defeat ISIL would be completed in three years. But I understand the reason for the proposed sunset provision. It derives from the important principle stemming from the Constitution that makes the grave matter of enacting an authorization for the use of military force a shared responsibility of the president and Congress.

The president's proposed authorization affords the American people the chance to assess our progress in three years time, and provides the next president and the next Congress the opportunity to reauthorize it, if they find it necessary.