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Dr. Drew
Bobbi Kristina`s Boyfriend Enters Rehab; Two Students Expelled in Oklahoma for Racist Chants; Grandmother Arrested for Killing Grandchild with A Chainsaw
Aired March 11, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: The OU racist chant scandal. Is it time for all fraternities just to be shut down?
Plus, a grandmother is accused of killing her crying grandchild with a power saw. Crime, mental illness.
Let us get started with the most tweeted story of the night. As Bobbi Kristina Brown spends her 40th day needlessly on ventilator support in an
ICU, her boyfriend, Nick Gordon, is receiving treatment for addiction, we believe.
And, tonight, you will see Nick, impaired, belligerent, inconsolable, as his own mother and Dr. Phil convince him to take treatment. Take a look at
what Phil was facing when he Met nick for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHILLIP "PHIL" MCGRAW, HOST OF DR. PHIL SHOW/FORMER PSYCHOLOGIST: You have been drinking, son?
NICK GORDON, BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN`S BOYFRIEND: Yes.
DR. PHIL: How much?
GORDON: Two shots.
DR. PHIL: Two shots this morning?
GORDON: Yes. I have been drinking. I have been doing Xanax. And, that is it. I have been -- I have been like sober besides that. Mom, I lost --
I lost the most legendary singer ever. And, like I am scared to lose Krissy. I want to let all you guys know, I did everything possible in the
world to protect them, even though we did, like, everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: You got to man up. You got to straighten up.
GORDON: I have been so strong for so many people for so long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORDON: Do not disrespect me. OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: Two people in your life that you love and respect, you have lost one of them. You are in danger of losing another.
GORDON: Why do you guys -- why do not you stop filming me and like take -- take this, OK? All right? So, there we go. So, all right. Get to the
point quick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Sam Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu.com; Spirit, psychotherapist; Anneelise Goetz, attorney. He says, Spirit, he has been
sober. He used the word, sober except for alcohol and Xanax. This is not a sober man. This has not been a sober man for a long, long, long, long,
long time.
SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely. And, if he were my client, then the next question would have been, "What do you normally use?"
PINSKY: Right.
CLANTON: Because for him that very well may be sober.
PINSKY: Yes. It does not matter, really? And, my next question would be, I need to get you in the hospital immediately. Do you believe -- let me
ask this, Spirit. Do you believe his nonsense when he says he only started using because of his distress around Whitney and Bobbi Kristina?
CLANTON: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: I believe that they probably used as part of just recreation, as part of their relationship.
PINSKY: Sure. Of course.
CLANTON: I mean he is probably bipolar.
PINSKY: Well, he seems --
CLANTON: He has a lot going on.
PINSKY: It seem -- I have not seen a sustained footage of him until just now. And, I agree with you. It looks like this is more than just
addiction. There is mental illness here.
CLANTON: Yes. Clearly. I mean you look at the histrionic pieces.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: You look at all the attention seeking, the rolling of the sleeves to make sure that the camera gets the tattoos. Then he is not sure if they
are getting them, so he asked to point it out. There is a lot of the attention seeking behavior that is happening there.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. And, Sam, you are convinced that substances did play a part in what happens to Bobbi Kristina.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF POP TRIGGER ON HULU.COM: I am. And, I know that we have had a lot of speculation about this now, Dr. Drew. But, it is
not too hard to connect all the dots, OK? We know that now, yes, Nick Gordon has a substance abuse problem.
We know that, that other guy, their friend that was there that day when Bobbi Kristina was found face down in that bathtub, he had drug charges.
He was known as a dealer. We know that she, herself, Bobbi Kristina, has had issues with substance abuse, and her parents were addicts.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: So, I mean we need to call it what it is. I mean I know we do not have all the facts, but --
PINSKY: Sam, I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. So , let me consult with my attorney on the panel here. Anneelise, look,
is there any problem with calling this what it is?
I mean there is drugs all around and somebody is found dead with a history of having been intoxicated herself. This is a drug death. Let us call it
what it is. There is no way it is anything else. Now, I do not know about foul play. Well, let me ask you this --
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: That is the thing.
PINSKY: What is the thing? What if somebody provided her the drugs? We know that ends up being Nick for instance. Do we call him a murderer
because he gave her the drugs then she died ?
GOETZ: Well, it is interesting that you say that., because right now, there are two individuals that are surrounding the case. We have Max and
we have Nick. And, Max who is willing to go speak to the cops, Nick is not.
He will talk to Dr. Phil but he will not talk to the cops. Max has requested immunity. And, I think the reason we are seeing that is because
he maybe could have been the dealer, and he is worried about his own culpability in this situation.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. If he ends up being the person that provided her the drugs that had a material effect on her drowning, is he guilty of
something?
GOETZ: You know, there are -- I have not seen that many prosecutors try and take it that far, that many causational affects.
PINSKY: OK. I have not seen that either.
GOETZ: You could. You could.
PINSKY: I have not seen that either. Let me ask you another thing.
GOETZ: OK.
PINSKY: I have been distressed since day probably 8th that poor Bobbi Kristina is being kept needlessly on these intensive levels of care that
are unconscionable. They are fruitless. They are needless. They are adding suffering. They are utilizing precious resources. Is not there
somebody that can take some legal action to bring sanity to bear on that situation?
GOETZ: We see this all the time, though, do not we, Dr. Drew? Where you have family members that just want to keep someone alive and will ignore
the request of other family members saying, "It is time. It is time to let nature take its course."
PINSKY: What is the fear? Why is everyone so fearful of some sort of litigation or somebody -- there is so much fear around doing what is right
for the patient. Why should anybody be fearful? What is the legal action they can take?
GOETZ: It is America. We will sue. We will sue the lawyer. I am sorry, we will sue the doctor. If we think the doctor gave us the wrong advance
and there is a chance she could have leaved and he told us to take her off and really there was a possibility. You have to have every eye dotted,
every T-cross when you are talking about healthcare.
PINSKY: So sad. I know. I have been there a million times.
GOETZ: You should know that more than anyone.
PINSKY: I have been there a million times. And, Spirit, it makes me -- and see -- Spirit, what I do is I make sure I talk to the patients before
they ever get in a situation like that. Everybody -- Anybody, I have taken care of, so I can legitimately say, I know what that person`s wishes are.
My job as the physician is to represent the patient. If the family is not going to come to terms with it, I am going to do what is right for the
patient. Why are people so fearful of doing that?
CLANTON: Yes. Well, you know, because this situation, it still would not have mattered, Dr. Drew. You are talking about a 21-year-old vibrant young
woman. Nobody saw this coming, unfortunately. So, no one ever stopped to say, what do you want to do at 21 years old in the event that something
should happen and you are not here.
PINSKY: Yes, you are right. You are right.
CLANTON: And, we keep talking about the family making the decision, why will not the family do it. At the end of the day, there is only one person
who has the right to make the decision. Everyone else here is just background noise. And, so it is not about reaching all the family.
PINSKY: The dad. It must be the father.
CLANTON: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: He is the only one who has the legal right to be able to make this decision. Everyone else is just background noise, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: And, Sam, this whole situation is chaotic and messy. And, I agree with you, when I look at Nick and see him -- by the way, hats off to Phil
for getting that chaos into treatment. But,I look at that kind of chaos that we see there in front of the camera, that is what -- that is what Nick
was living with, right?
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Kristina, rather.
SCHACHER: Yes, Bobbi Kristina.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: That is the last thing that she should have been surrounding herself with. And, Nick Gordon, too. I mean, it was a disaster waiting to
happen. But, Dr. Drew, yes, I am happy that he is in treatment. And, I have a lot of empathy for him.
But, I also have a really sour taste in my mouth that he is, as Spirit so eloquently put it, he is doing this, this attention seeking behavior for
everybody to see the way he acts on social media, the way he is rolling up his sleeves, the way he is doing this with Dr. Phil while she is in a coma,
I do not like it.
PINSKY: All of it is a distraction. It is a distraction so he can keep doing drugs, frankly. That is what drug addicts do. Now, there is an
overlay here of massive --
CLANTON: Oh!
PINSKY: -- But, Spirit, that is what addicts do. That is what --
(LAUGHING)
CLANTON: I think that is an --
PINSKY: Listen, it is a simplification.
CLANTON: It is true, but I think --
PINSKY: That is what they do.
CLANTON: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: I think it is an oversimplification, though, because what it is, is that he is not getting his need met. He is not being able to see her in
the hospital. He is not being able to have his voice heard.
PINSKY: Why does he care? He does care about her. Why does he care?
CLANTON: Are you kidding?
PINSKY: Why does he care.
CLANTON: Because this was young love. This was young love.
PINSKY: Oh, please.
CLANTON: And as dysfunction as it was.
PINSKY: His young love, these are using buddies.
CLANTON: It is true.
PINSKY: They are using buddies. T
CLANTON: That too.
PINSKY: That is the deal.
CLANTON: That too.
PINSKY: He is getting to keep using. That is what is important.
CLANTON: Dr. Drew, come on. You were 20 before. You know what it is like. Your parents and nobody can take you away from that love.
PINSKY: But, I was not a drug addict. I was not a drug user.
CLANTON: This is true. It is dysfunctional.
PINSKY: That is the motivational priority in their head. There is other stuff going on here, as you and I, both agree.
CLANTON: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: But, fundamentally, it is about using. Next, Nick`s mother reveals some surprising things about her son and about previous rehab.
And, later, fraternity rant that got two University of Oklahoma students expelled. Is this racism exclusively or is there something more going on
here. Maybe we have overlooked the fraternities. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: Why now? Why this moment?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BROWN: And, why on national T.V.?
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: Why not in your own home?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLANTON: What you are finally seeing is he introduction to Nick that no one has ever seen. Nobody has cared about him up until this point, until
Bobbi Kristina was injured.
PINSKY: I do not buy any of it. I am sorry, Spirit. I maybe seem hard hearted. I think it is a reason to obfuscate and continue using.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Spirit and Anneelise. And, Spirit, I am looking at Twitter. I really have to explain myself. When somebody is a severe drug
addict, their brain motivational system, it is permanently altered in such a way that the only thing that is important to them is using drugs. They
do not think about it that way --
CLANTON: Right. The next time. The next time.
PINSKY: But, every feeling, every thought, every idea they have, they are not aware of it, but it is under this motivational push to keep using. So,
when he becomes histrionic and crazed and acting out this way, behind that is, "Yes, keep making the scene because then you get to keep using.
Now, I am beginning to think Spirit, what we are looking at on some of this footage is him in drug withdrawal. I think what we are calling mental
illness may actually be drug withdrawal because you know, withdrawal can manifest -- can look like almost any mental illness you can name.
CLANTON: Absolutely.
Now, the mom knew -- that mom knew that her son had been to rehab at least twice and went with Whitney Houston and Bobbi Kristina. I do not know
where on Earth does a legitimate licensed program that admitted a family for treatment. And, you will not believe why she thinks Nick was there.
Listen to what she told Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE GORDON, NICK GORDON`S MOM: He has been blamed himself for her being in the condition that she is in. He is torn up by that. He is
dealing with it by drinking.
DR. PHIL: Whitney and Bobbi Kristina and Nick attended rehab together a number of times --
MICHELLE GORDON: Correct.
DR. PHIL: Actually, three times.
MICHELLE GORDON: Correct.
DR. PHIL: If he had not had trouble with drugs or alcohol, why was he going g going to rehab three times?
MICHELLE GORDON: I believe Whitney wanted to keep them all together as a family.
DR. PHIL: Whitney was going because she had the problem.
MICHELLE GORDON: Yes, sir.
DR. PHIL: And she took nick into rehab even though he did not have a problem?
MICHELLE GORDON: I do not -- from me listening to my son on the phone and speaking -- talking to him on Skype, he never appeared to be high off of
drugs or inebriated.
DR. PHIL: Was Bobbi Kristina there as support or was she there because she had a problem?
MICHELLE GORDON: I am assuming she had a problem, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anneelise, let us help people understand something, that when a facility calls itself a drug treatment center and is licensed by the state,
it must have criteria for admission. You have criteria.
Each patient is evaluated. They must meet criteria for what it is this program treats. And, if it is a drug treatment center, everyone that fills
a bed must meet criteria for drug addiction. Right or wrong?
GOETZ: Right. Right.
PINSKY: Of course. Of course. What a bunch of lying nonsense that is -- first of all, I cannot believe mom bought that. Secondly, you are getting
a sense of what an obfuscating lying gentleman we are dealing with here?
GOETZ: But, also, Dr. Drew, I think it is interesting, because we have always heard of this guy as being Whitney`s adopted son, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: So, question like, how much did she -- how involved was she actually in her son`s life? Did she know why he was going to rehab? He
probably had a problem.
PINSKY: You mean the son or the biological mom? The biological mom.
GOETZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. She was Skyping with him because he was staying with this family that was his. And, listen, I am going to tell you something. We
would never allow people to be in the same treatment program that were currently involved in a relationship.
You can formerly have been involved in a relationship. A lot of drug addicts run together and hook up and fall apart. And, they end up in the
same program sometimes.
That happens, but you never put a husband and wife, a mother and a daughter, a couple into treatment and then three people into treatment.
Where did they go? What was this place? Maybe it was just a -- Sam, maybe it was just a vacation somewhere. They went to Aruba.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: I do not know what the -- What could they possibly be talking about?
SCHACHER: You know, Dr. Drew, I do not really believe a lot of what this mother is saying. I am sorry. I question her motivation.
PINSKY: Clearly, the mom is lying?
SCHACHER: Yes. I question -- maybe she does not know, but I question her motivation, period. Where was she over the past six or seven years where
Nick Gordon claims he had nobody in his life, but Whitney Houston and Bobbi Kristina.
So, where was she then? Why is she here now? Why is she on Dr. Phil? Why is she saying all these things that she apparently did not know of
beforehand? It does not add up.
PINSKY: And, she says he felt responsible for -- I mean this guy, responsible for protecting Whitney and Bobbi Kristina? This guy is your
protection, Spirit? How badly impaired must they have been if this is the guy they rely upon for their protection? Listen to what the mom says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE GORDON: He has failed Whitney because Whitney asked Nicholas to protect Bobbi Kristina. And, Nicholas has always felt like he was a
protector of Whitney and Bobbi Kristina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Spirit, what kind of nonsense are we talking about here? Come on now. I mean realistically, come on.
CLANTON: You know, I am laughing because you guys have so much disdain for this situation. But, from a therapeutic perspective, do not you see the
dysfunction here?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
CLANTON: A plus B always equals C. I can totally understand where he is coming from. I totally understand where mom has just checked out. There
are so many dynamics here that make perfect sense, Dr. Drew.
If you sit back and look at it and go, "OK, you guys were all dysfunctional. You guys were all addicts. You guys were all enmeshed."
You mentioned it last night the thing about rehab.
PINSKY: Yes. No, I agree. I agree.
CLANTON: Bad service. And it goes against help once you have too many money and too much privilege. Is not it likely that somebody cross the
line here?
PINSKY: So, you think they paid --
CLANTON: Dr. Drew, money gives you a lot of things here.
PINSKY: So, you think they paid their way there. Maybe you are right. Maybe it was money that got all this. Listen, it could -- it is the worst
-- here is the thing. When you are treating a special person, you have to not treat them as special, because a part of getting well is just being a
human being with a condition.
You got to say, "Whitney, sit down and shut up." "Nick, shut up. You are going to the treatment program down the street. You got a bad disease.
You need to do what everyone else does and take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, and put your butt in a seat and shut up."
That is what we do. That is what they need. And, just because they are special, you cannot go, "Yes, you do not want to go to group, whatever.
And, they pay extra money, and they get special care. And, they get -- then they die. That is what happens. And, that is what we are dealing
with here.
So, I cannot tell you how -- well, if you want to know a great example is look at Conrad Murray. That was special care, everybody. That was Michael
Jackson getting special, special, highly special, individualized care.
And, it could not get worse than that. Sam, you get what I am getting at here? I mean maybe you have never been around this kind of thing. But the
average person does not really understand this kind of thing.
SCHACHER: I was just listening to everything that you said, Dr. Drew with all your grandiose -- I loved it. I love authoritative Dr. Drew -- so
much. I love that you are saying sit down, shut up, take the cotton out of your ears put it in your mouth. More of that, please.
PINSKY: And, well, that is what -- I am not excited to say that to people, except I know that is what someone like this needs.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: They need containment. They need a firm hand. Because look at him flopping around all over the place if he is left to his own devices. I
mean we have two women -- well, we have one who is essentially brain dead.
I mean she is not brain dead, but she does not have enough brain function to get out of an ICU after 40 days. It is not going to get much better.
We have another woman dead. I mean can things get much worse? Now, was Nick using distraction throughout just to undermine the intervention? That
is simply a question.
And, later a grandmother is arrested for killing her own grandchild with a chainsaw. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The family is in denial. They do not want to say that this happened on their watch. This completely happened on your watch, the same
way it happened with Whitney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN, ONLY DAUGHTER OF WHITNEY HOUSTON AND BOBBY BROWN (singing): I heard that your dreams came true, guess she gave you things,
I could not give to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Spirit, and Anneelise. Nick Gordon says he did not want to leave Bobbi Kristina to get treatment because she might wake up.
She might wake up. There is no waking up from comas like this. It does not happen.
Over years, sometimes somebody sort of slowly reconstitutes and maybe is able to swallow and move their limbs again. They do not wake up. It does
not happen like that. She has been on a ventilator for 40 days.
Her brain is swollen and crushed in the skull. She has no conscious function. She has only reflexes and only some primitive reflexes, not
swallowing, not breathing effectively. That is how far down into coma she is.
If she ever -- if she makes it through this, there will not be somebody waking up in the way that it would happen on a daytime drama. Given that -
- Sam, you have a reaction to this?
SCHACHER: Yes, because I am curious. The way you just put that, Dr. Drew, immediately I felt anger for Bobbi Kristina. Do you think --
PINSKY: For her?
SCHACHER: For her.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Do you think that their doctor -- Bobbi Kristina`s doctor is saying that to the family?
PINSKY: If they are not --
SCHACHER: Because I feel If they did --
PINSKY: If they are not --
SCHACHER: -- that they would rethink things.
DR. DREW: If they are not, it is unconscionable to me. I wonder if Bobby Brown or somebody that comes back and go, "Are you telling me there is,
absolutely, no chance? And, doctors always have to go, Anneelise -- they kind of have to go, "Well, I can never say there is, absolutely, no
chance." But the reality is, there is zero chance. That is the reality here. There is zero chance.
And, so, my thing would be, it is incumbent on you as a doctor to say zero. Because without zero, this family cannot get on with the grieving. Even if
there is a one in a trillion chance, which there is not. There is not. There just is not in situations like this. There is a chance she will
survive. A pretty good chance she will survive, but it will never be -- he will never have his daughter back.
GOETZ: And, that is the problem. You say there is a chance, there is a pretty good chance that she will survive. And, as a father, I am sure he
thinks, "Well, then what am I going to do? I mean to take her off this and she will not survive."
PINSKY: No. I am not, but how about --
GOETZ: And, then her life is on me?
PINSKY: -- well, but how about -- right. So, how about we leave the Intensive Care Unit, go to a step down level of care. And, if she starts
to have trouble functioning there, that tells us that she is not likely to survive. And, we can prognosticate a little better about how this is
likely to go.
If we keep intervening with the most aggressive measures available in a hospital, we as doctors can keep people alive indefinitely. We really can.
Even people that if you pulled back a little bit would die and we know for sure they are going to die.
Because the statistics on somebody surviving, regardless of what puts them in the ICU, if they are there in extremis, we called, this for months, the
probability of ever going home is almost -- it is zero. It is zero. And, the probability of meaningful life is zero. Now, as far as this wake-up
thing goes, watch how Dr. Phil convinces Nick to go to treatment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE GORDON: He is going to kill himself, and he has tried.
DR. PHIL: How has he tried?
MICHELLE GORDON: Taking pills.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: I miss Krissy and Whitney so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: I am going to seem so weak in front of the world.
MICHELLE GORDON: No. No, you are not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: I hate Bobby Brown.
DR. PHIL: But, you got to take care of yourself.
NICK GORDON: Yes, I hate him. Yes, I hate him.
DR. PHIL: You cannot be a protector for Krissy if you do not take care of yourself.
MICHELLE GORDON: Right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: So, what if Krissy calls my name and I cannot -- like it is three hours away?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If that happens, we will deal with it.
NICK GORDON: If it happens, it will happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: My name will be the first she calls, OK? So --
DR. PHIL: All right. Look at me in the eye. If that happens, Dr. Phil will get a chopper on the ground that willing way and we will fly you back
to the facility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Again, hats off to Phil. That is a great bet he just made. Because the probability of that person that is on the ventilator speaking
suddenly, that is zero. Zero, zero, zero. She has a trache in her neck. She cannot breath on her own.
Even if she did not have all the brain injury -- If we were just going to try to bring her back just from the pulmonary standpoint, weeks to months
before she ever spoke. Now, the question our Twitter followers want to know is Nick ill or is something else going on, like is he just insincere
and obfuscating. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: Mom, I would never hurt anybody.
MICHELLE GORDON: I know. I know.
NICK GORDON: I like -- I love people. I love babies, everything.
MICHELLE GORDON: I know. It is OK. Take a deep breath. Take a deep breath.
NICK GORDON: All right. So, here we go --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Spirit, do you understand people taking issue with the -- whether or not he is believable in the way he is flying with all the histrionics,
which seems excessive?
CLANTON: Yes, because the average person has never seen behavior like this. So, you look at it as the average person and you go, "He is faking
it."
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: "He wants attention."
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: "He is all over the place."
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: But, the essence of the mental illness that he is likely dealing with, this is just characteristic of that. So, when I look at it, I see
something totally different than what most people will see.
PINSKY: I -- I -- let us just look a little more of it. Here is some more of him distracting Dr. Phil from what really is -- where the rubber hits
the road is, dude, you are dying of addiction, it is time to get treatment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: I am fine.
DR. PHIL: We will make you better than fine. We want to make you --
NICK GORDON: Thank you, doc. I appreciate it.
DR. PHIL: We will make you sharp, gilt-edge, so you can make the best decisions.
NICK GORDON: Mom, you have Krissy`s ring?
MICHELLE GORDON: I did not bring it. I did not bring it.
NICK GORDON: Oh my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE GORDON: I have Krissy`s engagement ring. He wants me to hold it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK GORDON: Why do not you guys --
DR. PHIL: That is too much.
NICK GORDON: Why do not you stop filming me and like take this. OK? All right? There we go. So, all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam, what do you think?
SCHACHER: I do not like it, Dr. Drew. I am sorry. And, I have so much empathy for addiction. OK? I dealt with addiction with a number of people
in my life. This does not seem -- of course, he is an addict, but this reaction does not seem sincere to me. And, I even hate saying that out
loud, because I feel like a bad person saying that. But I do not see any tears throughout that whole interview from the mother and him. It just --
it seems -- it seems inauthentic.
PINSKY: You see them. It seems inauthentic from an average person looking at it. I felt it was a little empty. And, I -- you know, with somebody
dealing with addition, I could say, "Well, he maybe just an addict looking for a way to keep using, whatever." But, he is obfuscating. He is
overdramatizing. He is lying. He is blaming. He is manipulating. Could it be criminality?
GOETZ: Well, if it is criminality, he did about the worst thing he could do by going on national television, high as a kite, and just spilling his
guts. That is the prosecutor, if he says anything, is going to have just - - it is going a playground for the prosecutor. I mean -- and I wonder, he talks about guilt, right? "I feel so guilty. I feel so guilty." What do
you feel guilty about?
PINSKY: Right.
GOETZ: And, the prosecutor is going to take that and run with it. We have not seen the whole clip, but I wonder, you know, what else he divulged in
that interview. If that was my client, I would not let him anywhere near those cameras.
And, Dr. Phil, let alone, you know, by himself, with the woman, his mother, who he has not even seen. She is, "Oh, I am so concern. I am so concern."
You have not seen him since Bobbi Kristina -- the first time you see him is when you are going to go on the Dr. Phil show.
PINSKY: Spirit, do you agree with me that we should give a little nod o Phil for getting him into treatment at all? That is a pretty good move.
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: I say, hats off to him -- and people go, "Oh, they paid him. They put him on T.V." Who cares? However, you get him into treatment, you can
make a change.
CLANTON: Yes. And, you know, absolutely, just for full disclosure, I mean I even reached out to his team after I saw the tweets on Twitter. I was
really disturbed by some of those things. Any time you have somebody who is in the state that he is in dealing with the kind of things that he has
been dealing with, it does not matter how you have to get him there. You just have to get him there.
PINSKY: You just got to get them there. Now, the question is --
CLANON: Now, the thing is, are they going to be able to keep him there?
PINSKY: That is my question. That is exactly what I was wondering.
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: How do you keep the guy there? Now, again, if you say to him, "Hey, we will pay you half of your, whatever we promised you for the
interview, we will pay the other half when you completed three months, six months." My eye is -- I think he is in drug withdrawal. I think it is a
big part of what we are seeing here.
It is why it feels so empty and bizarre because he is flailing. And, that kind of flailing, as Spirit said, could be mental illness. It could be.
But it can also be drug withdraw. And, that would explain everything. It could all be drug addiction. Even if it is -- let us say it is a character
illness, like he is a manipulative kid. Let us say, it is some sort of mood disturbance. Let us say, addiction is on top of that.
Whatever the combination, the kinds of things, I am sure Spirit you will agree with it, we are thinking about are on the order of six to 12 months
of treatment before you are going to get anywhere with this guy. So, this is a long-term proposition if this kid is going to get anywhere near
something we would call well.
Next up, the OU fraternity scandal. Is this perhaps a reason to look at whether or not we even need fraternities?
And, later a grandmother is accused of killing her grandchild with a power saw. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRATERNITY BROTHERS AT UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA (chanting): You can hang them from a tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a
(EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Fraternity brothers at the University of Oklahoma taking part in racist songs and chants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CNN REPORTER: Are you embarrassed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): Extremely. I cannot say anything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDNETIFIED MALE SPEAKER: People completely actually just overlook all the good things fraternities and sororities do. I mean it is the largest
network of volunteers in the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: If you look at every unwanted outcome for that age group, whether it is an accident or pregnancy or sexually transmitted disease or sexual
assault or a fight, every single one you find alcohol and it lives nowhere more vividly than in the fraternity system. That is what I am asking the
universities to maybe take a look at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Spirit and Anneelise. And, "WTF," the story having a huge impact on Twitter and Facebook. Fallout continues following that
racist -- following that racist rant from the fraternity members at the University of Oklahoma.
The second of two expelled students, Levi Pettit, according to the campus newspaper, "The Oklahoma Daily," Levi Pettit. And, his parents apologized
for the son saying in part, quote, "We know his heart and he is not a racist. We raised him to be loving and inclusive. We apologize to the
community he has hurt." Spirit, is this kid racist and does not realize it or was he just caught up --
CLANTON: He realizes it.
PINSKY: Now he does.
(LAUGHING)
CLANTON: He realizes it.
PINSKY: Now he does, but --
CLANTON: No. He realized it beforehand.
PINSKY: Well, tell me because I am thinking that it is these insulated cultures of these -- it is Lord of the flies in some of these
organizations. And, somebody passes down a tradition that is pathetic, and they pick it up.
CLANTON: No. You know what? I think that is just too simple, Dr. Drew. The bottom line is that unfortunately, the reality check here is that their
son is a racist. They do not know his heart. They may have taught him one thing, but what he has adapted is something different. And, that is the
bottom line. Hello? Here is a reality check. This is your kid.
And, so, parents, as parents we have to get real about who our children are. And, so, instead of saying, "He did not mean it. We apologize to the
community that he offended." So, then that still tells me you are a separatist because you do not see yourself as part of the community. You
are not offended. There is a problem here. And, we are not dealing with the real problem, that is the racist culture. That is what the issue is.
PINSKY: Samantha, you sort of jolted when Spirit said that. What are you thinking?
SCHACHER: Well, I think it is a combination of what both of you are saying, Dr. Drew. Because, obviously, we are not living in a post-racial
America, unfortunately. But, also, when I was at UCLA -- And, I know that, the Greek system does a lot for their students, but it also was a little
bit unattractive to me in the sense that it did promote segregation and divide.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: There was the loser sorority. There was the loser sorority. There was the hot chick sorority. There was the black fraternity. The
Latino fraternity. How is that promoting unity? If anything, it is just promoting divide within the student body.
PINSKY: See, Anneelise, I guess legally people have -- well, of course, legally they have a right to have these clubs, but I just think college
campuses are supposed to be designed to create healthy behavior amongst kids.
And, having all these sort of -- all this segregated behaviors and this environment that encourages binge alcohol use. And, by the way, let us
reminds ourselves that these kids, 19.
They are justification for their inappropriate behavior. He was saying, "Hey, I was drinking. I was wasted." At 19, I am wasted. I am drinking
and that is just, "Oh, what do you expect me to do? I am in a fraternity."
GOETZ: That is college. There is no excuse for that, but that is not -- that is not --
PINSKY: You, Anneelise, you are doing it too. Wait a minute. That is college is exactly what I am talking about.
GOETZ: But that is what I am saying.
PINSKY: Well, no, it is what I am saying, which is the problem is every time you dismiss the behavior that is contributing to horrible outcomes on
college campuses, you are being a part of the problem.
GOETZ: No. I think that unfortunately, we have a community -- in our college campuses, there is underage drinking is a problem. But, I think
that it is incredibly unfair to put that on the Greek system, because that is pervasive throughout the dorms, throughout the --
PINSKY: Well, I degree.
GOETZ: -- the athletic programs, through all their organizations --
PINSKY: I agree. But, let us look at some data. Let us look at some data. 2009 study, 86 percent of frat residence compared to 45 percent of
non-fraternity. More likely to binge drink. 500,000 unintentional injuries each year linked to the fraternity system.
2007 study, fraternity members three times more likely to commit a rape. I mean, again, I am just a health professional looking at data going, "Whoa!
I am not so sure this is a good thing. Maybe we eliminate all these things."
Maybe we eliminate -- my college got rid of them a long time ago. A lot of institutions of higher education, the lead institutions look at these and
say, you cannot justify this. I do not know. But, I wonder, next whether criminal charges might be filed against those kids who took part in that
racist chant.
And, later, a crying baby dies when her neck is cut with a power saw. The accused, her grandmother. Evil or mentally ill? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRATERNITY BROTHERS AT UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA (chanting): There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in
SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Two University of Oklahoma students are expelled. Cell phone video exposes ugly racist behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This student, seen leading the racist chants, identified as a 19-year-old freshman from Dallas, Parker Rice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Likely this was fuelled by alcohol consumed at the house before the bus trip.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I mean this whole alcoholic excuse, I do not consider that an excuse at all for bad behaviors.
PINSKY: The university fraternity programs support a behavior that I would call everything but healthy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam, Spirit and Anneelise, cell phone video of a racist rant lead to the expulsion of two students, plus shuttering of the SAE Fraternity
house at University Of Oklahoma.
And, now, the attorney general of Oklahoma says, his office will work with the university to determine if there are possible criminal charges.
Anneelise, are they going too far? Is not speech constitutionally protected? You may not like what they are saying , the school needs to
take action but criminal?
GOETZ: Yes. I would be shocked if we end up, actually, seeing criminal charges. There may be something under the civil rights act. I do not
think we are seeing anything criminal. The fact the matter is the university should be lawyering up.
Because I think that the actions they took violated the due process rights of those students, plus they just trampled all over their first amendment
rights. The hardest time to enforce a first amendment is when someone is saying something that you do not want to hear. And, that is what is going
on here.
PINSKY: Yes. I always hear that people say the stuff, you need to protect the most is the speech that you hate the most. Joining us by phone, I got
Karamo Brown, our friend, social worker. Karamo, you have an interesting take on this. Tell me what you are thinking.
KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: Yes, Dr. Drew. As I was sharing with everyone, yesterday. My biggest issue here is that it is hard for me to
just jump on the bandwagon and say that these kids are racist. Obviously, them using the "N" word is wrong.
But as I was sharing, I do not use the "N" word personally as an African- American man. And, part of it is when I hear individuals who are outside of African-American community using this race is because hip hop has told
them that it is OK.
And, I was at a concert, recently. If I can tell you this, where I was around all these little white girls who were maybe no more than five to ten
years old, had no malice in their heart, had nothing and the DJ was playing music.
And during that time, while he was playing music they were singing along with the words. Some of those words being the "N" word. And, of course,
in this video, they said things like hanging from a tree, which I do not condone it. It is not right.
PINSKY: Of course. Of course. But, it is interesting, Karamo. Spirit, I know you are going to have a reaction to this. But, you know, I spoke to
Reverend Jesse Jackson this morning on my KBC radio program. And, he said something very similar to Karamo, believe it or the not.
He said -- he did not say this. I have heard some people say the "N" word needs to die, needs to stop, and that we are all sick. And, these poor
young people are a reflection of how sick we are as adults and how divisive we are and that we should not put all the focus there. We all need to take
a good look at ourselves.
CLANTON: Yes. You know, I hear what Karamo is saying. I hear what the good reverend is saying. I hear what all of them are saying. And, I am
saying, I am not buying it. Because even if you used it within context , within the context of hip hop, that is not what they are using it in as
illustrated by the first line. You can hang them from a tree.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
CLANTON: They are talking about the history of lynching.
PINSKY: I know. It is crazy.
CLANTON: Let us be real here.
PINSKY: I know. Listen, I know you are right. But, I just think, Sam, why do I keep going back to the fact that it is the Lord of the flies at
the fraternities? At Wesleyan University, one of the little three where I spent my time, family members of mine spent their time, they are doing away
with fraternities like so many of them are. One more follow suit if they have problems with the way members are behaving, maybe the exclusionary
principles and itself.
SCHACHER: Yes. At the very least, they need to update and reform and regulate some of these old ass traditions, Dr. Drew. I do not buy the head
of this national fraternity chapter saying, "Oh, we knew nothing about that chant." BS.
I guarantee you, that chant has been chanted for years and years and years. And, guess who is taking the blame? These kids. And, it is disgusting.
And, I actually think they should be taking the blame because they are all guilty, but it is not just these kids, Dr. Drew. Give me a break.
PINSKY: And, I just heard Anneelise say something surprising. Those kids maybe lawyering up, which is interesting.
Next up, a tragedy involving a grandmother and a crying baby and a power saw and mental illness. But, is she also just evil? Hey, listen, if you
would like to see our show in person. Here is your chance to be in a live audience with a special Dr. Drew on call. It is next Thursday, March 19,
right here at the CNN building in Los Angeles.
You can message us on our Facebook page. That is facebook/drdrewhln. Get tickets there and let us know how many tickets you want. Contact e-mail,
we can get back to you. And, we would love to see you here.
It is going to be a great show in our new theater with a big old audience. And you must be 18 or over and we will see you there. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A Chicago area grandmother is accused of killing her 7-month-old granddaughter with a power saw. According to
neighbors, 52-year-old Manuela Rodriguez lived in the home with her two grown daughters, each of whom had a small child. Neighbors are shocked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: It is sad. It is just sad, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A WGN Reporter said on Twitter that Rodriguez had previously sought help for psychological problems prior to
the baby`s death.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: More than psychological problems. Back with Sam, Spirit and Anneelise. The suspect reportedly tried to kill herself. Manuela
Rodriguez is charged for the murder of the granddaughter, Rose. Police say she beat, choked and then cut the little girl`s throat with a power saw.
She has been denied bail, but she is getting mental health evaluation. So, my question Spirit is, you know, there is a certain point at which people
start to look at somebody with mental illness as evil. And, indeed, if somebody is going to be evil, truly evil, sometimes it is associated with
mental illness.
CLANTON: Absolutely. And, we got to do a better job, Dr. Drew, with getting people help.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: When they are identified or they step up and identify themselves, this country has to deal with the issue of mental health.
PINSKY: And, then now we have -- you and I have talked -- chanted about this on this program for so long. And, now we have people having children
under the -- they are supervising kids and the system is failing everybody.
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: I want to show you an interview I did with a woman name Sheilla Shea. She is convicted of having killed her son, and she did it. She is
now -- was then put in a mental health facility rather than a jail.
And, you are going to get a sense of -- I hope, in this clip how mental illness can lead to this kind of horrific behavior. It is not everyone
with mental illness, but when it does, when it happens, this is how it plays out. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEILLA SHEA, CONVICTED PF KILLING HER OWN SON: I was going down the hall towards the bathroom. And, I was like my kids, you know, they are going --
they are going to rape my kids. They are going to torture my kids. They are going to mutilate my kids. And, I thought that if I killed my kids and
then killed myself that there would not be anybody to hurt them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anneelise, you see how this gets? So, she starts believing that by hurting the kids, by killing the kid, she is saving them from a worst
fate. She is actually being a good mother. It is an evil act in a delusional system.
GOETZ: I am not going to lie to you, Dr. Drew. It is hard for me as a lawyer, especially not as a medical professional like yourself, to wrap my
head around this. But, we are in a society where you cannot just take people. They are scary like that, they have not done anything wrong and
incarcerate them. We cannot do it. You cannot force treatment on someone.
CLANTON: You can hospitalize.
PINSKY: I wish we could. I will tell you, we would save a lot of people from pain, especially the people who themselves are suffering these
delusional processes. DVR us then you watch us any time. Do not forget to apply for those tickets at our Facebook page. "Forensic Files" up next.
END
