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CDC: Patients Flying on Non-Commercial Planes; Report: Al Qaeda Paid With CIA Dollars; President Reconsidering Afghan Drawdown; Investigators: Several Leads in Police Shooting; 5-5:30p ET; Several Leads in Ferguson Police Shooting; Prince Charles Opens Up on Camilla; Ferguson Mayor Says Will Not Step Down Following DOJ Report; O.U. Fraternity Hires High-Profile Attorney

Aired March 14, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. 5:00 Eastern. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you from New York.

And this just into us here at CNN. Several American aid workers possibly exposed to the deadly Ebola virus. They are on a plane right now on their way back to the United States from Africa. The CDC says that they're being flown on of course charter planes. They're coming here from Sierra Leone. This comes just one day after another American aid worker already diagnosed with the Ebola virus arrived in the U.S. for treatment. That brings the total number of Americans treated for Ebola up to 11.

Joining me on the phone our senior medical course correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. Elizabeth, what more do we know at this point in time?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, what we know right now was that these folks will be flown to three different places. They'll be flown to Atlanta to be near Emory University, to Maryland to be near the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center, or to Nebraska to be near the University of Nebraska. You notice that I said near. They will not be admitted to these places. They will actually be staying in hotels or some other kind of housing. Because they're not sick right now. They'll be watched, they'll be closely monitored. If they do get sick they'll be admitted.

Some of these folks, we're told, are self-quarantining. They are going to keep themselves in the hotel or wherever they're staying. Others, though, will not be. They've decided that they want to be able to be out and about in the community. Again, none of these people are sick. And you can't give someone Ebola unless you're sick. Which I think is a point that I know you and I emphasized often when we were covering, both talking about Ebola in the fall, emphasized it again. You can't get Ebola from someone unless that person is sick. So far as far as we know none of these people are sick yet.

HARLOW: Elizabeth, can you put the number ten in context for us in terms of these ten people in the air right now being flown for observation and possible treatment? It just seems pretty big. COHEN: Poppy, indeed it is a big number. When you consider that in

this country 11 people have been treated with Ebola. So this is ten more who might possibly have Ebola. So ten people treated with Ebola here in the United States since August. Most of them treated in Nebraska or at the NIH or at Emory. And I want to be very clear with this. You know, Ebola has an incredibly high mortality rate in Africa. In this country it hasn't. Out of those 11, only two of them died. And those two both of their cases were caught quite late. In this country we have a very good track record of saving people with Ebola. And for the most part with the glaring exception of Presbyterian hospital in Texas, we have an excellent track record, really a perfect track record of treating people and making sure the doctors and nurses don't also get the Ebola. Again with the exception of Presbyterian in Texas.

HARLOW: Elizabeth Cohen, our senior medical correspondent. Thank you. Stand by as I bring in Dr. Alexander Garza, Alexander Garza joins me from St. Louis University, he's the Associate Dean of public health practice there. Thank you for being with me sir. I appreciate it.

DR. ALEXANDER GARZA, ASSOCIATE DEAN, ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY (on the phone): Sure. Thanks, Poppy. How are you?

HARLOW: I'm well, thank you. Do you agree with Elizabeth that this number ten seems like a lot? And if so I'm wondering if you have any inclination as to why so many are being flown here for monitoring.

GARZA: Sure. Well, it certainly is the largest amount of Americans that have been evacuated from West Africa from people that have been exposed to the virus. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are high risk patients. I believe or my impression of this is out of the abundance of caution that these people were evacuated. Because this patient that just came over from the NIH wasn't, you know, they were sick when they came over. And they didn't know that this patient had Ebola. And so they had some exposure to the virus. And so I think just out of the abundance of caution they're going to bring these people back, keep an eye on them, make sure that they don't get ill. And if they do that they can receive the proper treatment.

HARLOW: In terms of what we know about how hard it is for someone to contract Ebola, right? It's not transmitted through the air. It's bodily fluids, et cetera. Do you -- how confident are you that these people are just being monitored out of an abundance of caution? I know we're still waiting on a lot of details. Or are you concerned that indeed these ten people may have contracted Ebola?

GARZA: Right. So, you know, one of the big question marks is what was their exposure status. And so the CDC had put out guidelines, of course, on how to take care of isolation and quarantine and all these things. But it was really dependent upon exposure status. And so that's one of the things that we don't really know right now is what sort of exposure these ten people had to the index patient, the person that's being treated at NIH. So if there was exposure to bodily fluids without personal protective equipment that's one thing. If there was we were just working around this person but didn't have exposure, then that's another thing. And so there's a lot of factors that go into how worried should we be about these people, how close of an eye should we keep on them. And all those other things that go into developing how close of an eye we should keep on these folks.

<17:07:27> HARLOW: Doctor, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Of course we'll keep our viewers updated as we learn more about this. Again those ten Americans being flown right now from Sierra Leone to the U.S. for monitoring for possible Ebola exposure. Thank you.

Also now, this very disturbing story coming to us from "The New York Times." It details how al Qaeda may have filled its pockets with money from the U.S. government handed to them by the bag full. This is what The Times is reporting, that money from the CIA was paid to the government of Afghanistan who then used that money to pay al Qaeda ransom. It is no secret that U.S. dollars have been flowing into Afghanistan for years. Money earmarked for government use, internal projects, scholarships, rebuilding after years of war. But according to this "New York Times" report, in 2010 Afghan officials struck a deal to free an Afghan diplomat being held hostage by al Qaeda but the price was steep. Five million dollars. And senior security officials were scrambling to come up with that money. That is when, according to the Times, Afghan officials turned those bags of cash, cash from the CIA, over to al Qaeda and the group's then leader, Osama bin Laden.

Bob Baer spent most of his career with the CIA in that part of the world. Bob, again this is all "New York Times" reporting. According to them the CIA has not responded yet. We have not heard back from the CIA about this. Does this surprise you at all?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Poppy, no. I tell you the way this works. The White House comes to the Central Intelligence Agency and says, listen, we have to support the Afghan government, Karzai in particular.

HARLOW: Right.

BAER: And the CIA says, okay, we will. Whatever amount of money you want it's appropriated by Congress. And the CIA also informs the White House there's no way we can keep track of this money. Karzai can spend it any way he wants. He can go into the drug business, he can pay ransom, he can give the money to al Qaeda, he can do anything he wants. And that is very clear to the White House. And the White House inevitably, I've seen this over and over again over the years, says do it we need to support this guy, prop it up. Yes, we don't. We will never get accountings from them. And so that this money, $5 million, ended up with al Qaeda and essentially supported it for a good period of time, does not surprise me. This is the problem with covert action. It's neither covert nor action. And the money always gets misspent in one way or another. It's not like the CIA will be surprised by this. Just the unfortunate way things work in that part of the world.

HARLOW: Well, and you have to weigh the benefits and the risks, right? And so that's clearly the calculation that is done here. And the "New York Times" article has been outlined. Look, you know, unforeseen and not something that the CIA would want to happen. They have this money goad into the hands of terrorists. But at the same time, knowing that they needed to prop up and assist the government there. Should this shedding light on something like this change at all the way things are done on this front?

BAER: Poppy, it will never change it. I mean, this is a messy part of the world, especially Afghanistan, where corruption is sort of cheerful and open there. And, you know, when we invaded in October 2001, we went in with good intentions. At the same time we all knew that this was Afghanistan is a mess and there was no way to control it. And we've been in there before in the 80s. Same way with Pakistan. And go right across the Middle East, including Iraq now. And you just can't control the money. And in no sense should the CIA be blamed for sloppy accounting. I've just been in the Middle East things before. And I've told the White House myself that we can't control this money. Yes, we will spend it if you want us to. But where it ends up we can't tell you.

HARLOW: All right. Bob Baer, thanks very much for that analysis. We appreciate it.

BAER: Thank you.

HARLOW: We do hear back from the CIA on that we will let you know.

BAER: Coming up, new information about U.S. policies. We were just talking about U.S. policy in Afghanistan. This concerns the number of troops there. President Obama may be rethinking his plan for a steep drawdown of troops by the end of this year. We'll have a live report from the White House, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

<17:14:44> HARLOW: President Obama is said to be reconsidering a drawdown plan to reduce U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Erin McPike joins me live from the White House. What do we know at this point, Erin, on this?

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, this is coming at the request of Afghan President Ghani. He and President Obama talked via teleconference earlier this week now. Right now, there are now 10,000 U.S. troops there and the long-time plan has been to reduce hat number to 5500 by the end of the year. Also for some context, Defense Secretary Ash Carter visit Afghanistan earlier this year and said, during that trip he may advise the President to reconsider the troop drawdown impart because the conditions may not be appropriate for U.S. forces to step back yet and the U.S. government is enjoying better relations with the new Afghani government. So, officials want to keep that going.

HARLOW: Right.

MCPIKE: So, according to a senior administration official, General John Campbell, and he is the commander of the U.S. forces in Afghanistan, the senior administration official says that he has developed recommendations to enhance the training, advising and assisting of the Afghan National Security Forces, the maintenance of appropriate counterterrorism capabilities, and ways to manage the retrograde in a way that prioritizes force protection for our troops. These discussions remain ongoing and no decisions have yet been made. But Poppy, generally when the administration begins to contemplate a move like this they will float it for us with this kind of trial balloon and get the initial scuttle out of the way before an official announcement is made.

HARLOW: Here's the thing I'm wondering, Erin. Right? To the President, this administration has come under a lot of criticism by some who have seen ISIS expand in Iraq and have said this wouldn't be happening if more U.S. troops had stayed. The administration does not agree with that. But do you think this is at all a response to that?

MCPIKE: Poppy, I think that is certainly the case. As we have been seeing lawmakers debate this for the past several months, they're saying this very thing, that they don't want to see conditions happen like it happened in Afghanistan and in Iraq. So I think that's certainly weighing into this decision.

HARLOW: Yes. All right, Erin McPike at the White House for us. Thank you, Erin.

James Williams joins me now, he is a retired U.S. Marine Corps major general. He commanded a marine combat division in Iraq. General Williams, your reaction to this headline that the administration may not reduce troops from 10,000 to 5500 on the timeline that was expected. Is that right move to change strategy here?

MAJOR GEN. JAMES WILLIAMS (RET.), FORMER COMMANDER, 4RTH MARINE DIVISION: Oh, absolutely. Poppy, I think this is a very wise decision on the administration's part. I think with the advent of Ash Carter as the new secretary of defense, with the assessment of General Campbell and probably with General Austin, the commander of Central Command, you know, it made an assessment. Plus the request from the President of Afghanistan, to have this delay probably makes great sense. I mean, ultimately you're dealing with a government that is not very strong. You know, you're still trying to develop the forces to shore up what they need to do internally. And between all the tribal issues that you typically have in this region, it's very important that we create some level of stability. I mean, let's face it. If we don't stabilize Afghanistan, the potential for Afghanistan to devolve and become something like Syria and Iraq is becoming to a degree what the ISIL challenge, that I think is part of the hopefully the wisdom of this decision.

HARLOW: I just wonder if you think that it should be floated publicly like this as Erin just said for sort of to take the temperature of public and official reaction to a move like this. I mean, shouldn't this be a decision that is decided by the administration, by the generals on the ground?

WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, part of this is a political decision. But ultimately the decision being political in its nature requires sort of an analysis by what everybody thinks, whether it's in Congress, whether our allies in Europe, as well as our allies in the Middle East. I think without a doubt this is a good moral decision in terms of judgment, stabilizing the force, leaving the troops there. They're in a training and advising role, which is a good role at this point. But you also have to protect the troops that are there. I mean, otherwise we would be remiss in our responsibilities to do so.

<17:19:15> HARLOW: So here's the thing. What do you say to the critics that say for how long? This cannot be endless. We've seen others fail in Afghanistan over decades. How long can we keep this up? What do you say to them?

WILLIAMS: Well, Poppy, it's actually centuries. You know, we've had six empires goes through the region. And the question is, how long do we want to stay? How much money do we want to burn? I think that's a legitimate question. But a lot of that depends on the vision of the politicians. Certainly the generals know what has to be done. And ultimately it's up to Congress since Congress maintains and supports the military financially to ensure that whatever we're going to do is meaningful not only in the region but for our national security but also for the stability of our allies in the region.

HARLOW: General Williams, thank you for your service to this country. Thank you for joining me to talk about this headline just into us here at CNN.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.

HARLOW: All right. Unrest continues in Ferguson. This is still a town that is on the edge. And a manhunt is continuing for whoever shot two police officers on Wednesday night. We'll talk about that.

Also, though, coming up. When you look at exercising, we all have to do it. But maybe doing it with your partner, that might just be the motivation that you need to get fit. Here's our Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: How important is this to do together?

JULIA SMOOKLER, FIT NATION PARTICIPANT: You know, accountability is huge. And I feel like we would hold each other accountable. That we have the same goal. Like if you don't want to work out one day, but I do, let me help motivate you.

GUPTA: Is this going to be more supporting each other? Is there going to be some friendly competition?

EUGENE SMOOKLER, FIT NATION PARTICIPANT: I'm a little better.

JULIA SMOOKLER: He's awesome.

EUGENE SMOOKLER: Yes, right. You know, I think I really just want to support each other. I just want to make it fun for both of us and help one another.

GUPTA: Your husband, what are you most concerned about?

JULIA SMOOKLER: I'm concerned for to us stay on track, to make sure we really stick with it. I think having that team support, knowing that four other members are doing it with us too that's a pretty cool thing.

GUPTA: Any doubt right now that Julia's going to have any difficulty crossing the finish line?

EUGENE SMOOKLER: Well, you know, I was concerned because she had a little back surgery last year. A disc bulge. You know, because she's delivering babies all the time that's not easy. And I was a little concerned. But she has the strongest work ethic I've ever seen. So like I don't doubt at all she'll finish. We may have challenges but there's no one that can outwork her. So I'm really excited. I know she'll finish.

GUPTA: We're going to cross that finish line together.

EUGENE SMOOKLER: Yes.

JULIA SMOOKLER: It sounds good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

<17:25:46> HARLOW: In Ferguson, Missouri, police are working around the clock, hoping to identify who shot two of their own officers during a Wednesday night protest. Reward for any information, that amount now sits at $10,000. That number could grow as more people donate. Investigators say so far they have come up short in this manhunt. They are pursuing several leads, though. Also this hour, Mayor James Knowles meeting with black business owners right in Ferguson. This a day after he says he will not be stepping down.

Let's discuss, joining me now former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik and also former FBI assistant director and CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes. Thank you both for being here.

Bernard to you first, when you look at this a lot of people are saying how could a shot go that far that accurately to these officers. Do you think that this was well planned, executed, or more random spur the moment?

BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: I think it's premature to tell whether it's, you know, random or spur of the moment. It was 125 yards, they're estimating. According to the initial information, the rounds fired were out of a handgun. That's a football field and a quarter.

HARLOW: Right.

KERIK: That's a long way. But they had a group of officers all combined in one area.

HARLOW: So you're saying maybe not to hit one specific or two specific officers but to hit officers in general.

KERIK: Their intent was to hit officers.

HARLOW: Police.

KERIK: Hit police.

HARLOW: Yes. Tom Fuentes, to you, part of this investigation as Bernard was just saying is what kind of gun was used. You walked the scene. You were in Ferguson yesterday. What's your take?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, my take is Bernie is exactly right, that you know, police officers don't worry about the bullet with their name on it, they worry about the thousands that are addressed to whom it may concern. And that's probably what you have here. In talking to the local reporter and others that were at scene, they said that shortly before the shooting happened the police cleared the protesters off the street and they were moved across the street in two separate parking lots. And from the top of the hill, when you look down you see that whoever shot had a clear shot at the police. There would have been no protesters in the way. So it didn't require too much elevation to be shooting straight at the police.

HARLOW: Bernard, you say looking at this, you think President Obama should have offered more support to law enforcement right after this happened. What would you have liked to have seen?

KERIK: Well, I just think in the aftermath of Eric Garner, in the aftermath of Michael Brown, you know, the President came out directly pertaining to those incidents. In this case it wasn't the case, you know? And he's basically involved already. Because he involved, you know, it's a national level thing that got involved in a local community. I just think the law enforcement community in general across the country has to know that they have the support of the President, they have the support of the state leaders and the local leaders.

HARLOW: You did hear attorney general -- well, first of all the President did condemn this immediately.

KERIK: Absolutely.

HARLOW: On those comments on Jimmy Kimmel this week. Eric Holder the Attorney General calling it heinous, calling it damn punks whoever did this.

KERIK: And he's right.

HARLOW: You would have liked to see something more formal from the President, possibly at the White House just making very clear?

KERIK: Yes. I don't think it's just me. I think it's across the board. The law enforcement community in general. They have to be supported. They have to feel supported. In many cases I don't think that's the case.

HARLOW: Tom, what is your take? I mean, do you have an opinion on that front?

FUENTES: No, I agree with that. And I'd like to add that there's been no real analysis given to the report that exonerates Officer Wilson. And I think that's a huge tragedy. You know, we had that story go out Hands Up, Don't Shoot. All these witnesses were going to the media and saying they saw him trying to surrender. And a meticulous, extensive, diligent investigation by the FBI determined that every one of those witnesses recanted their story or said they didn't even see it at all and more or less made that up.

And later when they were under oath it turns out and on page eight of that report if you read it, it says there were no credible witnesses that the surrender motion was ever happened. And then in turn it said there are numerous credible witnesses that said that Michael Brown was going towards Officer Wilson on the street when Wilson made his final defensive shot that resulted in the killing of Michael Brown. Now, there's been no coverage on that.

And by the attorney general commingling the racist report about the practices of Ferguson and combining that at the same time, the report on Darren Wilson basically got brushed off and blown over. And I think that's a real tragedy here. Because what happened is that narrative "Hands up, don't shoot," Michael Brown was murdered by the police officer, justice means Wilson needs to be in handcuffs and go to prison, that's all based on a false narrative that never happened. And the attorney general himself says that the report on Officer Wilson is correct, and people should accept that, that all of the things that were previously reported about him murdering Michael Brown were not true and didn't happen.

HARLOW: And that report also, as you said, right at the same time the DOJ report outlined systematic racism within some in the Ferguson Police Department as well.

BERNARD KORIK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: That's right. When you go back and look at this, all those protests so-called peaceful protests that led into damage and devastation and chaos and gunfire was based on a lie.

HARLOW: Well, the protests were also driven by what the DOJ found to be horrendous racist actions by some in the police department.

KORIK: But that's not what started it.

HARLOW: Let's not forget it.

KORIK: But that's not what started it.

(CROSSTALK)

KORIK: It's a piece of it.

HARLOW: You know, a lot of the protesters, most were peaceful, many of them saying look we're not just protesting this shooting we're also protesting what we've been living under, so understood on both fronts. I wish we had a lot more time to discuss it. I want to get both in

there. But understood that has not been the headline that has been coming as Tom Fuentes just pointed out from the DOJ report.

Thank you both, gentlemen. We've got to go.

KORIK: Thank you.

HARLOW: We're back in a moment.

FUENTES: Thank you, Poppy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Two hours from now, only on CNN, an exclusive look into the life of Britain's royal family. Prince Charles opening up about his marriage to Camilla and how she has really been defined by the public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRINCE CHARLES: You can imagine it is a real, real challenge. But she's, I think, been brilliant in the way she's tackled these things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, our royal correspondent, Max Foster, got this special exclusive access to Charles and Camilla at their home. He joins me now from London to talk about it.

It is a fascinating report. And they really never speak. So I'm interested in why they chose to speak to the media now.

MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: I think it's been 10 years since the marriage, and when they did get married, Camilla was incredibly unpopular. I think particularly actually in the United States. They're sort of aware of that. And they're heading to the U.S. next week. She's up against Diana. She was the other woman against Diana. She broke up that marriage, Diana said. So, so many people looked up to Diana as the biggest star in the world.

But over the last 10 years, Camilla has really sort of tried to just be herself. And actually, when you meet her, she's very charming, very charismatic. Doesn't always come across on TV. I think the strategy has been to allow her to get on with the things she enjoys doing. People get to know her. They get to like her. And actually, British people, according to polls, are very much warmed towards her. It will be interesting to see whether Americans feel the same way.

HARLOW: I know that he also spoke about being a grandparent.

FOSTER: He did a bit. He's very excited about the imminent arrival of another grandchild, grandchild number two, after Prince George, of course. He enjoys getting on his knees and sort of getting down with young kids. He likes having them around, he said. There's been some reporting here that he doesn't see enough of Prince George. And the Middletons see a lot of Prince George. But when I spoke to him, there's no sense of that at all. They seem very close.

HARLOW: And very quickly, before I let you go, next week they'll be here in the United States?

FOSTER: They will be. They'll be there from Tuesday, starting off in Washington, D.C., at the White House, meeting President Obama. Very busy four days. And are going to go to Kentucky as well.

HARLOW: Sounds like a good trip.

Max Foster, thank you very much.

And you're not going to want to miss Max's special later tonight, special rare access to "Charles and Camilla," 7:00 eastern right here only on CNN.

Quick break. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Police in Ferguson, Missouri, have raised the reward money for any information leading to the arrest of whoever shot two police officers. It now sits at $10,000, and investigators are following up on what they describe as several leads in this case.

Meanwhile, the mayor of Ferguson, one of the only city officials still at his post, he has said he will not be stepping down.

Let's talk about all of this with CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Guys, thank you for joining me. I appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: In the wake of the Department of Justice report, the Ferguson police chief, city manager, top court clerk, two police officers out. And yet you have these two officers attacked. They were attempting to murder these officers overnight on Wednesday.

And I wonder, Ben, what your reaction is, whether the feds should do more to step in here.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think they have to now especially. Because there are many people involved now that they want dead police officers. This was an assassination attempt. They didn't care which officer that they killed. They didn't care if they were on the police force in Ferguson or from surrounding areas helping out. And I think the federal government should step in here in a major way to help protect those. I also think the amount of money that they've raised for tips and leads should be much higher. When you have two police officers, I'm sure they wish there would have been more that would have been hit. I wish this amount of money would be much higher. The federal government should step in here and put in a serious amount of change so that anyone that knows about where this shooter is or shooters will immediately give them up. That's something that the police should know that the government is going to have their back on.

HARLOW: So I want you both to listen to part of what President Obama said after the shooting. It was during his appearance on Jimmy Kimmel, "Jimmy Kimmel Live" this week. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What had been happening in Ferguson was oppressive and objectionable and was worthy of protest. But there was no excuse for criminal acts. And whoever fired those shots shouldn't detract from the issue. They're criminals. They need to be arrested. And then what we need to do is to make sure that like-minded, good-spirited people on both sides, law enforcement who have a terrifically tough job, and people who understandably don't want to be stopped and harassed just because of their race, that we're able to work together to try to come up with some good answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Marc, I've had some guests on this show tonight say, look, that was not the right place for the president to address it. They wanted to see a more formal setting, possibly the White House. And also say he shouldn't have also in that answer talked about the findings of the DOJ report that found horrific racism among some in that police department in Ferguson. Do you think that he should have simply spoken about the fact that this is a heinous attack on two police officers?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. I think the president had a right to speak about and a responsibility in fact to speak about all of those things. The two officers being shot doesn't take away from the fact that a considerable set of events has happened in Ferguson before the police officers were shot that also is worthy of our investigation. And also demands justice. And if we just focus on those two shooters we actually play into the hands of those two shooters, right? We'd only be talking about them instead of the extraordinary amount of work, the extraordinary amount of effort, the extraordinary amount of principled protests and righteous rage that has come out of Ferguson.

And lastly, I find it incredibly fascinating when people want the president to talk. When Michael Brown was shot in Ferguson people said the president should stay out until we have an investigation, until we have answers, until we have more information. All of a sudden, when the police officers are shot, we want President Obama to speak out and say something. We want to get into the minds of the shooters and what their intentions were, even though we don't know anything yet.

FERGUSON: Marc, the shooting --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: This was an awful shooting. It shouldn't have happened. The president has a responsibility to speak to both of them. HARLOW: Ben?

FERGUSON: Marc, the reason why people had a problem when it comes out about Michael Brown is because he's speaking on behalf and giving in to this idea that the police officer automatically did something wrong. Giving in to this idea that --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: He never said that.

FERGUSON: Let me finish. Let me finish. When it actually did not happen --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: That's not true though.

FERGUSON: No. No. This is the point. The principal point is this. The president anytime that there is something involved in the local community that deals with race and he sees an opportunity to jump in there, he does it. But he's timid and calm, and also gives to the people that are going after these police officers -- We know what happened. You had police officers that were targeted to be assassinated.

LAMONT HILL: Oh, god.

FERGUSON: That is when the president should speak out --

HARLOW: Wait.

FERGUSON: -- and should say that that is a problem instantly.

HARLOW: Ben, why do you call it timid?

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: I just want to know why -- Ben, you call it a timid and calm response. The president condemned what happened to the officers.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Attorney General Eric Holder called it heinous, called them "damn punks."

FERGUSON: And I liked Eric Holder's approach.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: It was bold and blunt. When the president is also talking about the report in Ferguson at the same time, I don't think you mix the two. I think the president should be able to come out and be very angry when a police officer is -- the attempted assassination of a police officer. And there shouldn't be any issues about well, also the report said this. You don't assassinate police officers in America.

HARLOW: But he did -- I do want Marc to weigh in very quick, because the president did, before those remarks, tweet exactly that, condemning this right away.

LAMONT HILL: That's what I don't understand. I don't know what Ben wants to hear from the president and when he wants to hear it. Whatever he hears, the opposite seems to come into his brain here.

First of all, Ben says the president essentially said what the police officers did in Ferguson was wrong. There is not one piece of evidence, there's not one transcript, not one sound bite, there's not one news clip, there's not one presser. There's nothing where the president said that what the police officers did in Ferguson was wrong. Hey, I wish he had said something more stern. But he said nothing.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Let me finish, Ben.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: The attorney general --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Hold on, Ben.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: The attorney general of the United States of America takes the cues from the White House to go out there and investigate to see if race was involved. "Hands up, don't shoot" never happened.

LAMONT HILL: Ben, investigating "Hands up, don't shoot" with Eric Holder is different than saying the president stood up and said that the officers did something wrong. He didn't say that. That's simply factually untrue.

You also said that the president sat there and somehow didn't say anything against the shooters. Again he tweeted it out. He spoke on national television about it. Again it's untrue.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: -- what you want to see.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: All right, guys --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Guys, stay with me. I'm going to cut you off here. Stay with me. (CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Stay with me. Guys, stay with me.

Quick break. On the other side, we're going to talk about another very important story that unfolded this week. Fraternity members expelled after a recording shows them saying disgusting racist things. We'll talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: A nine-second video anonymously sent to the student newspaper. Yeah. It is horrific. You can't even believe this happened, right? In the days to follow, the story has snowballed to a story about racism, free speech in this country. Two sigma alpha epsilon members at the University of Oklahoma have been expelled over the video. Investigators are looking into other chapters as well. On Friday, the Oklahoma chapter retained high-profile attorney, Stephen Jones. He is best known for defending Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh.

Joining me again, CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Ben, when you look at this, O.U. President David Boren took swift action, saying they have no place at this university ever. Now you see the fraternity hiring a high-profile attorney. What does that say to you about zero-tolerance policy and what sort of argument do you think could be made on their behalf, if, indeed, that's the route they're going? All we know is he's been retain.

FERGUSON: First of all, it just shows how tone deaf the alumni and the fraternity members that are a part of this are. You don't go hire an attorney, in my opinion, where he's known for defending Timothy McVeigh, which is the Oklahoma City bomber, when you're in Oklahoma. First of all, it just shows you have no taste or class by doing that.

Second of all, you have to know just to walk away and let things calm down a little bit instead of acting like there's some injustice done against you. If you kicked everybody out of school on that bus, by all means, grab an attorney at that point, because you can't say everyone on that bus is doing something wrong. But they only kicked out two students. I think the president of the university made it clear he was going to do an investigation and those that were leading this and maybe others and he took swift action and should be applauded for it.

HARLOW: I think it's interesting, right, because this video somehow got from that bus into the hands of the newspaper. Someone on that bus wanted this to get out there.

Marc, what's your take?

LAMONT HILL: Every once in a while, Ben's right. I think the president did the right thing. And I think reason he didn't expel all the students is because you couldn't see everyone's mouth moving on the bus. Some kid could conceivably, plausibly, say, I didn't want to do it, I was the kid who submitted the tape. But honestly, I think everyone on that bus who did the chanting should be involved in this. I'm completely am aware of the First Amendment issues attached to this. And I typically try to protect peoples' First Amendment right to say things. But on college campuses, public universities, there is a right to go to school without having a hostile environment and without feeling safe. I think they compromised those students' abilities.

HARLOW: We heard from some of the student leaders there in a group called Unheard, saying we've been dealing with racism before this. This is not the first time.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: My team was just telling me you were both in fraternities. And, you know, when things like this happen, it is often -- people can be swift to paint entire organizations with, you know, one brush.

Do you agree, Ben?

FERGUSON: Yeah, absolutely. When I came back in the fraternity that I was in, they'd been kicked off campus five years before and they changed -- we changed the entire culture, and that was part -- we were drastically different. But they made it clear when there was a hazing issue five years before, they were not going to let our fraternity back on campus until anyone that could be around it had graduated or was long gone from the university. And I think that's what the O.U. president was trying to do at the bare minimum. And I think that's a step in the right direction because you have to have everyone around this group that was there completely gone from that university before you can even think about letting them back on.

HARLOW: Marc, before we go, quickly, what do you do about the bigger problem, some of those students at O.U. said, this isn't the first time we've been dealing with racism?

LAMONT HILL: I think there's the point. We don't want to make it seem like these outliers or this fraternity chant was an extraordinary circumstance. We have to talk about the racism on college campuses, about the micro and macro aggressions students have to deal with. There are experts like Sean Harper (ph) and Elon Danzing (ph) who talk about this in their research. This is a bad circumstance. And the whole campus has to come together. We can't feel bad about ourselves until we take out the bad apples.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Right.

Guys, I've got to leave Marc with the last word.

Thank you, gentlemen, both. Important discussions. Appreciate it.

FERGUSON: Thanks.

HARLOW: More news straight ahead after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: The first "CNN Hero" of 2015 is a woman who is changing lives one broken-down car at a time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CATHY HEYING, CNN HERO: I was a social worker for 15 years. I kept seeing people struggling with making ends meet. One car repair can upset the entire apple cart. I kept thinking why isn't somebody doing something about this? One day occurred to me, I think that somebody may be me.

I did not grow up working on cars. I ended up getting a degree in auto technology. Does it get worse when you turn on the heat? How we're different than a regular garage is that people have to meet certain income requirements.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was quoted close to 1,400.

HEYING: We charged customer $15 an hour for labor. Market rate was $100 an hour. We don't do markup on the parts. We are a lot less.

You're looking at 300 bucks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would give you more, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

HEYING: A car that works allows them to meet the basic needs of their lives with dignity.