Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Boat Owner Takes Stand in Tsarnaev Trial; Watertown Police Chief Describes Manhunt Standoff; The Hunt to Find Art Thieves; Secrecy Guru Says Hillary Clinton's E-mail Excuse "Laughable." Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired March 17, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

<14:30:48> BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

To Boston. And this quote, he said, "He just kept fixating on the blood." David Henneberry, the Massachusetts boat owner who found the Boston bombing suspect hiding out in his Watertown backyard, took the stand today in the federal trial against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. He recounted for members of the jury today those incredibly frightening moments during this massive manhunt for the Tsarnaev brothers. And the moments he realized this younger brother was in his backyard hiding in his boat, Henneberry -- seen right here on the left side of the screen leaving court after his testimony -- said he noticed something was amiss. He was a pretty astute man. He saw the shrink wrap was loose. Looked tampered with, he said. Then he said he saw the blood. He said his eyes went to the other side of the boat. That's when Henneberry says he saw a body. He said Tsarnaev's back was to him and that he could, quote, "see his shoes, his clothes." His wife then told him to call 911.

Days after Tsarnaev's arrest, our Boston affiliate, WCBB, spoke with David Henneberry about finding the 19-year-old in his backyard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID HENNEBERRY, WITNESS: I know people say there was blood on the boat and he saw blood and went in.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: Not true?

HENNEBERRY: Not true. No.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: The word is you saw the boat, you pulled back the wrapping, you saw a body, it moved, and you called 911.

HENNEBERRY: Oh, no, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: No?

HENNEBERRY: No, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So he went to the garage and grabbed a stepladder.

HENNEBERRY: I got, I think, three steps up the ladder. I rolled it up and can see through now the shrink wrap. I didn't expect to see anything. I look in the boat over here on the floor, and I see blood. And --

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT (on camera): A lot of blood?

HENNEBERRY: Good amount of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.

HENNEBERRY: My eyes went to the other side of the engine box. The engine box is in the middle. There was a body.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: And at that moment, what did you do? What were you thinking at that moment?

HENNEBERRY: Oh, my god.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He couldn't see suspect number two's face. He was glad he couldn't see his face.

HENNEBERRY: Well, I know I took three steps up the ladder. I don't remember stepping down off the ladder.

This hits you more afterwards when you think, my god, we probably slept last night. This guy could be in -- you know, I don't know. It's just surreal.

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: In that instant, police responded and he and his wife were taken away.

(on camera): People are calling you a national hero.

HENNEBERRY: If the people killed can get something from --

UNIDENTIFIED WCBB CORRESPONDENT: You know, in many ways, they do.

HENNEBERRY: Then I'm at peace with it, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Before that dramatic boat standoff unfolded, there was, of course, that massive manhunt in the entire city of Boston in that deadly confrontation that would claim Tamerlan Tsarnaev's life, the older brother. Watertown police officers described that moment as, quote/unquote, "eight minutes of sheer terror." On the stand, many recounted how, with the Boston area on lockdown, they found themselves embroiled in this fierce battle with the brothers, tossing these homemade bombs and opening fire. We now know the elder brother, Tamerlan, was killed.

I want you to hear how Watertown's police chief described the scene to Wolf Blitzer. This was back in 2013, days after that standoff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Walk us through what happened. The older brother, he's wounded, right? He's thrown out of the car. And there are reports that the younger brother drove away and drove over his brother. Is that right?

EDWARD DEVEAU, CHIEF, WATERTOWN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, eventually, yes. That's exactly what happened. What happened was, at some point, the first brother who died at the scene, he all of the sudden comes out from under cover and starts walking down the street, shooting at police officers, trying to get closer. Now my closest police officer is five to 10 feet away and they're exchanging gunfire. He runs out of ammunition, the bad guy. And so one of my police officers comes off from the side, tackles him in the street. We're trying to get him handcuffed. There's two or three officers handcuffing him in the street.

<14:35:08> BLITZER: The older brother?

DEVEAU: The older brother. At the same time, at the last minute, they obviously have tunnel vision. Just a very, very stressful situation. One of them yells, "Look out." Here comes the black SUV, the carjacked car, directly at them. They dive out of the way, and he runs over his brother and drags him a short distance down the street.

BLITZER: In effect, killing his brother?

DEVEAU: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Then the chief detailed with Wolf how authorities were able to get Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to surrender from the boat in that Watertown backyard. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: When did you realize that this was going down, that you had the second suspect?

DEVEAU: We -- it was late in the day. You know, we had a report that we got from our citizens. We asked them to keep vigilant. We got the call. It sounded like really good information.

BLITZER: That person called and said there's a guy in this boat in my backyard --

DEVEAU: That's right.

BALDWIN: -- and it looks like there's blood there. Pick up the story there.

DEVEAU: Right. I do want to talk about what happened the night before.

(CROSSTALK) BLITZER: We'll get to that in a second. Pick up the story --

(CROSSTALK)

DEVEAU: At that point, we had a couple thousand police officers on scene. The turnout was just incredible, the support that we got from the state and the region. So we had the tactical people to be able to close that scene down and secure it. We did take our time to make sure that everybody was safe in the neighborhood. Eventually, we had to use some flash bangs to render the subject --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Tell our viewers what a flash bang is.

DEVEAU: It's just a loud compression that would stun somebody for a short period of time. Then we began negotiations. Slowly, over a 15, 20-minute period, we were able to get him to stand up and show us he didn't have a device on him.

BLITZER: So he's lying in this boat. He's been there for several hours. He's wounded, bleeding.

DEVEAU: Right.

BALDWIN: He's obviously weak. You come over there, and what do you say to him? You have a bull horn, start saying, "Come up with your hands up?"

DEVEAU: We have a negotiator who was actually on the second floor of the house looking down at the boat.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: You could see him?

DEVEAU: No, we couldn't see. There was a plastic top over him. We had the state police helicopter that could tell us when there was movement in the boat by the heat sensor. We could tell he was alive and moving. We began the negotiations that way. Over a long period of time, we were able to finally get him to surrender without any other -- anybody hurt.

BLITZER: So he didn't use anymore gunfire?

DEVEAU: Once we got the place surrounded, there was early gunfire when we first got in the area. He exchanged gunfire with some of the officers. Then we secured the scene.

BLITZER: Who did the negotiations? Who did the talking with him?

DEVEAU: That would have been the FBI task force.

BLITZER: And he raised up his shirt. He showed he wasn't wearing an explosive device. And then what happened? DEVEAU: Well, we took -- at that point, once we saw that, we felt

comfortable enough to send some officers with tactical equipment to go in and grab him and pull him away from the boat so he wouldn't have anything else. He needed first aid, you know, so he was transported by ambulance into a Boston hospital.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: And again, that was April two years ago.

Coming up here on CNN, 13 of the world's greatest works of art, worth half a billion dollars, stolen in the greatest art heist in history. The hunt is still on for these thieves. What new clues could now mean for the search, after this. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

<14:43:50> BALDWIN: The empty frames still hang on the walls, the memory of some of the world's greatest, most priceless works of art stolen from the Boston Museum some 25 years ago. 13 works of art worth half a billion dollars, taken during the greatest art heist in history.

A new CNN special tonight looks at the hunt to find the thieves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Inside these walls, priceless works of art. But also a mystery that has lasted for 25 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like to say it is Boston's last best secret.

KAYE: On March 18th, 1990, $500 million worth of art stolen from a Boston Museum, the biggest art heist in history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the creme de la creme of art recovery.

KAYE: How did the thieves get inside? How did they get away with 13 priceless pieces? And a quarter century later, where are the paintings?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once they leave, they're never heard from again.

KAYE: In his only television interview, hear from the security guard who let the thieves in. Was this an inside job?

UNIDENTIFIED SECURITY GUARD: Well, I'm the guy who opened up the door. They're obviously going to be looking at me.

KAYE: Who else are investigators looking at? And will the artworks by masters like Rembrandt, Rene and Degas ever be recovered?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever has them just is waiting for the right time.

KAYE: It's the $500 million question: Who pulled off the greatest art heist in history?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Oh, Randi Kaye, Randi Kaye, what a documentary. I can't wait to watch this tonight. Just to think, they still have the frames on the walls.

So it's tomorrow that marks 25 years since this heist. One of the craziest parts about this whole story is apparently the FBI says they know the "who dun it" but they may not be able to do anything about it.

<14:44:35> KAYE: Exactly, Brooke. That's because they say they've identified the thieves. They think they're part of a criminal organization from the mid-Atlantic or New England. They've never named them publicly. They did tell us just this week that there was a credible sighting of that Monet in the home of one of the thieves, they believe, certainly, in the home of a man that matched or resembled the sketch given by somebody who was at the crime scene. Again, they've never recovered that Monet, nor have they recovered the other 12 pieces of artwork.

And also, Brooke, here's the thing. They're offering immunity to anyone who comes forward with these paintings. And because, Brooke, it happened 25 years ago, the statute of limitations has run out. They can't really charge these guys anymore with the actual theft. They might be able to charge someone with possession of stolen property, possession of artwork, maybe obstructing justice, but not the theft.

BALDWIN: How about that? And to think, a Monet. You can't just steal a Monet and pop it on a wall and think no one is going to notice.

Randi Kaye, We'll be watching your full investigation.

It's called "The $500 Million Question," the CNN special report tonight at 9:00 eastern and pacific.

Coming up, my next guest oversaw Freedom of Information requests, FOIAs, for the DOJ. Why he says Hillary Clinton's e-mail defense is, quote, "laughable." And has this controversy changed the public's opinion of the former secretary of state?

Plus, why is Russian President Vladimir Putin putting his entire northern fleet, troops, warships, aircraft, on full alert? Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

<14:50:24) BALDWIN: The questions surrounding Hillary Clinton's private e-mail server, the one she used while she was secretary of state, they're not going away. Last week, she said she will not turn over the server that hosts the e-mails. Now you have the House Republicans who are tossing around this idea of issuing subpoenas for this. This new poll shows voters are actually split over this entire thing.

When asked if Clinton's use of a personal e-mail system is a serious problem, you see the numbers here. Pretty split. A new CNN/ORC poll shows that Americans fall fairly even on both sides.

But a government secrecy guru, this man who ran the Justice Department's response to documents requests, says her defense is, quote/unquote, "laughable."

Let's talk to him about that. Dan Metcalfe was the founding director of the Justice Department's Office of Information and Privacy, guiding federal agencies on how to respond to requests for information.

Professor Metcalfe, welcome to the show.

DANIEL METCALFE, FORMER FOUNDING DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND PRIVACY, U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: Thank you, Brooke. Good afternoon.

BALDWIN: Good afternoon.

So just off the top, sir, why do you think Secretary Clinton used the private e-mail server, period?

METCALFE: Well, I probably should caution you right at the outset that it's not just the server. That actually was a secondary step that she took. The first step was when it came to using e-mail itself, just in general, she used exclusively a personal e-mail account as opposed to an official government e-mail account. That's point one.

Secondly, when she did that, she didn't take the steps that the government says should be taken in the exceptional circumstance in which there is resort to a personal e-mail account. The rule is that you should use the official e-mail account, but if you're a busy secretary of state responding to crises around the world in the middle of the night, sometimes you can't grab that device so readily. So there is some flexibility as a practical matter to allow a personal account to be used occasionally. When that happens, the step is then to be taken of putting that, forwarding that e-mail into the State Department system. She didn't to that at all. Then she relied upon, instead, the fact that the vast majority -- and I'm quoting her here -- of her e-mail correspondence was with State Department or other government officials where you would imagine there would be residue information in the accounts of those agencies for that. But that's only the majority, not the minority.

Thirdly, she created or established this regime in which she used purely a personal e-mail server at her home.

BALDWIN: All right. And let me jump in. I hear you on points "A," "B," and "C." Let me throw out a point "D." That being the separation form. I know the State Department has been getting grilled over this all week over this particular form.

For people who aren't familiar, if you're an employee of the State Department, when you leave state, you are supposed to sign the separation form in which, you know, these employees are forced to turn over any and all official records before leaving.

So, Professor, if the State Department says there is no record of her signing this form, does it matter if Secretary Clinton signed the form?

METCALFE: Well, I want to be careful here because I don't know for sure what might or might not have happened at the time of her departure. I know at the Justice Department when you depart -- for example, when I retired eight years ago, you go through a process that's called for by the Federal Records Act with respect to your records or the records in your office and how they are to be handled by way of either disposal, removal by the official, taking something home with you, or not. I assume they have that process at the Department of State. And you're right. That is a rather large question. Once they set this record-keeping regime up with a purely personal account, exclusively for her official e-mail, with a private server, I can't help but wonder how that could have been looked at, at the time of her departure. Whether they use a particular form or not, I don't have personal knowledge of that. I know only what we did at the Justice Department. But it certainly is a very logical area of focus, as you indicate.

<14:55:38> BALDWIN: Would it matter -- let me press you on that again.

METCALFE: Sure.

BALDWIN: From everything I've seen, there is a said form when you leave state. State has no record of her signing this form. Would it matter if she signed the form?

METCALFE: Well, again, I have to be very careful. I'm a careful lawyer, just as Clinton is.

BALDWIN: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

Good man.

METCALFE: I don't know what the form says.

BALDWIN: Right. Got it.

METCALFE: If the form represents something that was not true and she signed it, certainly that would appear to be a problem. It really depends upon what she is attesting to or representing to the State Department if and when she signs that form.

BALDWIN: OK.

METCALFE: I just don't have personal knowledge of that.

BALDWIN: Understand. Appropriate answer.

In the poll we showed a moment ago, where you see Americans are split on Hillary Clinton's -- how people perceive her honesty, her trustworthiness, she has taken a six-point hit in the last year. I can't imagine this e-mail situation is helping her. What do you think Hillary Clinton could do to make sure, to show the American people she's being fully transparent? Is there anything?

METCALFE: Well, I guess I can answer that question by telling you what I would advise her to do if I were in that position and she were looking for advice. Under these circumstances, I would advise her to sort of roll back the clock on her press conference, not continue with the careful delineation, language that she used there, which, quite frankly, is laughable in some respects, and then to acknowledge that she went too far and that she's now going to try to do whatever she possibly can.

One thing in particular she could do is, with respect to the official e-mails on that side of the line in her server, where she transmitted to the State Department last year that information only in paper form, not electronic form, I suggest it would go a long way if she did the latter. There's a difference between a paper printout and the electronic form. For purposes of the Freedom of Information Act, for example, there could be a keyword search electronically as opposed to a more laborious, partly erroneous search, through pieces of paper. There also could be metadata surrounding those e-mail communications in electronic form and server logs as well. That would go a long way.

BALDWIN: OK, if you were advising here.

METCALFE: In my opinion.

BALDWIN: I understand.

Dan Metcalfe, thank you so much. Professor, I really appreciate it.

METCALFE: Glad to be here.

<14:57:14> BALDWIN: Coming up next, we've got to get you back to breaking news here. Congressman Aaron Schock, Republican, Illinois, announcing his resignation over spending questions. We'll talk to our investigative correspondent, Drew Griffin, who tracked him down recently.

Plus, a U.S. Air Force veteran arrested for trying to join ISIS. How authorities managed to track him down, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)