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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Tunisian Terror Attack; Caroline Kennedy Receives Death Threats; Dallas Police Shooting of Mentally Ill Man. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired March 18, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[12:00:28] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin with our breaking news this hour coming out of Tunisia. The site of a terrorist rampage that is now being blamed for 19 deaths, not including two gunmen who were shot dead on the spot by security forces. At this hour, three attackers are said to still be on the loose.

But the siege of the Bardo Museum, which is part of a complex that includes the Tunisian parliament, is effectively over. All of the surviving museum visitors are safe, though 20 of them are said to be hurt. Seventeen of the dead were foreigners, tourists from Poland and Italy and Germany and Spain. And that's just the beginning of the count. At least two Mediterranean cruise ships had sent thousands of their tourists into the city for a day trip. Many of them were at that museum.

My CNN colleague, Atika Shubert, is sorting out all of the fast- breaking details from London. I'm also joined by Mubin Sheikh, a jihadi turned counterterrorism operative, and CNN military analyst and retired Air Force lieutenant, Colonel Rick Francona.

First to you, Atika, the very latest on what they know and how all of these survivors are doing at this point?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know so far is that there were at least 20 people wounded, some of them critically, and they were brought to hospitals nearby. Unfortunately, as I pointed -- said, you know, some of them seem to be very severely wounded. So the death toll could still rise.

There are so far 19 people believed to have been killed in the attack. Most of them foreign tourists. Poland has confirmed that at least one of their nationals was killed. And there was also a Tunisian security officer who was killed. In addition to that, of course, we now know that two of the gunmen were killed. But, according to the prime minister, another three attackers could still be on the loose. And security officers are now trying to track them down.

What we know in terms of the details of the attack is that it appears it was tourists that were specifically targeted. The gunmen opened fire as the tourists were getting out of the buses. They were just about to get into the museum when they sprayed them with gunfire. So a horrific attack. It looks as though specifically targeting foreign tourists.

BANFIELD: And then, Atika, of course the claim of responsibility, are we hearing anything about who is saying they're responsible for this?

SHUBERT: Nobody has claimed responsibility for this yet. But the spokesman for the interior minister described the attackers as, quote, Islamists. Now, we don't know which group that could mean. There are a number of groups in the region, al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. There are militant groups in Libya. There is Ansar al-Sharia, quite a militant group within Tunisia itself.

And, of course, Tunisia has -- is the country with the most jihadi fighters sent to join groups like ISIS in Syria and Iraq. More than 3,000 by the government's own estimate. And over the last few years, hundreds have returned. So there are multiple possibilities for who might have carried out this attack. It's something that Tunisian officials are now trying to nail down.

BANFIELD: All right, Atika, if you could stand by for a moment.

Mubin Shaikh, if I can get you to weigh in on this. It is absolutely remarkable when you see the numbers of foreign jihadis in Iraq and Syria that come from Tunisia. More come from Tunisia than any other country. That's according to the International Center for the Study of Radicalization in London, and that amounts to anywhere between 1,500 and 3,000 Tunisians who have gone to fight in the region. Is there any notion that this could yet again be another extension of ISIS and that we might hear from them soon about this?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADI: Well, ISIS has created this, you know, environment in which we all -- we assume that it's them unless we know otherwise. So don't be surprised that you will hear some kind of claim of responsibility. Just a couple of days ago, four cells were dismantled of Ansar al-Sharia. They have linked to individuals in Libya who have worked close to the IS or Islamic State or ISIS, whatever they are, links to Ansar al-Sharia leaders. And, of course, in early February, there were like 20-plus individuals who had been arrested plotting attacks on civilian and military targets. So it's very likely that this group are the remnants of those who were arrested.

[12:04:56] BANFIELD: And, Colonel Francona, if you could weigh in on this. I've just been made aware that you're actually scheduled for a speaking engagement on board a ship due to actually dock in Tunis later on this year. I don't know if you're going to continue on that plan. But in the meantime, it just doesn't seem to make sense. If Tunis is ripe with terrorists, why conduct a terror attack there?

RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to make this kind of attack. As Atika has said and Mubin has talked about, Tunis -- Tunisia is the primary country for recruitment for ISIS and these other jihadi groups, al Qaeda as well. So they go to do their fighting and they come back. There are hundreds that have returned from the battlefield. Yet we haven't seen this kind of activity in Tunisia yet. I think it's -- I think it's -- was only a matter of time and today was the day. So I think that this was to be expected, although it is a shock.

BANFIELD: And, Mubin, as the birthplace of the Arab Spring, you would think that terrorists who would prosecute this kind of action in that backyard might find that it backfires with those who really felt they could move that country forward.

SHEIKH: Well, the problem with these kinds of groups is they don't want to participate in the political process, in the political system. They're already isolated and marginalized and they further isolate and marginalize themselves by these actions they take. A lot of the economy, you know, revolves around tourism and this just hurts the Tunisian economy and the Tunisian people. So this will just further isolate and alienate these groups from the rest of the public.

BANFIELD: Colonel Francona, we're being told that the -- there were no Americans involved in the casualties and that right now the United States has no plans to close the embassy or change any of its operations. Given the history of this particular region, Libya next door, Benghazi, is this such a good idea given how fast and how easy this happened right adjacent to parliament?

FRANCONA: I think that it would be wise to err on the side of caution. Put out a recall for the embassy staff and think about closing the embassy, getting people into safe positions and then look at the future of what our embassy should look like. I don't think this will be the end of this. This might be the beginning. We may see more of this. It could be dangerous. So we need to assess the situation and determine that. Just the statement that we're not changing our posture, I think, might be a little premature.

BANFIELD: Colonel Francona and Mubin Sheikh, I appreciate your insight in this breaking situation. And our thanks to Atika Shubert, who has left us to gather more details because they are coming in as we speak. We're going to continue to update you on this.

In the meantime, we have another situation that's developing farther to the east. Reports of death threats against Caroline Kennedy. She is America's ambassador to Japan. This coming just days after that knife attack on the U.S. ambassador to South Korea. We'll update you on the details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:11:31] BANFIELD: Welcome back.

Just two weeks after the U.S. ambassador to South Korea was savagely attacked with a knife, we've got breaking news of another top U.S. diplomat reportedly getting death threats. And she's not just any diplomat. According to the wire services, this is Caroline Kennedy, the United States ambassador to Japan. She was threatened in phone calls last month that were made to the U.S. ambassador in Tokyo. That is her office. The timing of these reports could not be worse because the first lady

of the United States, Michelle Obama, just arrived this morning in Tokyo for a five-day visit to Japan and Cambodia. And former President Bill Clinton is also in Japan as we speak.

White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski is following every detail of this story today. She is live at the White House.

Maybe you could give me the State Department's response to this. I mean it's a heck of a headline to hear that a Kennedy is getting death threats, especially as she has this diplomatic title.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Right, right, of course.

BANFIELD: What's the State Department's response (ph)?

KOSINSKI: I mean of course that's going to turn heads. And the fact that it is in Tokyo while the first lady is there, as well as coming only days after the U.S. ambassador to South Korea was brutally attacked, slashed in the face with a knife.

So here's what we're hearing from the State Department today. "We take any threats to U.S. diplomats seriously. We take every step possible to protect our personnel. We're working with the Japanese government to ensure the necessary measures are in place. We will not comment on the specific details of any threats or the steps we take to address them."

So, we're hearing from the State Department, now from the White House, from the National Security Council, from the U.S. embassy in Tokyo, none of them confirming that these threats took place or how credible they're viewing them.

BANFIELD: Wow.

KOSINSKI: I mean that's what we really want to know. How credibly are they seeing these threats that were made? But keep in mind, they were all made last month, so that would have been even before the U.S. ambassador to South Korea was attacked. The threats -- they threatened Caroline Kennedy's life, also the life of another U.S. consulate general based in Japan, but based in Okinawa.

So we know that there's an investigation going on there that's based on sources that were quoted in the Asian press. But, obviously, the U.S. government doesn't want to comment on that and they're not giving any more detail than that. And if they were taking any additional precautions in security, you can see why they wouldn't want to give any detail on that as well. So that's kind of what we're left with, the fact that sources there are saying this investigation is going on, but, you know, how far does this reach and does it -- is it causing any changes? Those are the questions that remain.

BANFIELD: Right, changes. Michelle Obama just landed there this morning. We never expect to show these pictures of a first lady on a, you know, a goodwill tour. This is to highlight the importance of girl's education. We don't expect to run these pictures in conjunction with, is she OK, are they going to be derailing the five-day trip at all because of these threats, and is she -- is she even going to be meeting with Ms. Kennedy?

KOSINSKI: Right. Well, according to the schedule, she is expected to meet with Caroline Kennedy, as would be expected for a trip like this. I mean often a traveling dignitary of any kind is going to meet and spend some time with embassy personnel. So that is expected. The timing of it, we're not 100 percent sure of or whether we're going to see that on camera. But now this is getting a lot of attention.

[12:14:53] Keep in mind there, because these threats -- and there were multiple threats made according to reports there -- they all happened in February. So there has been time to try to get to the bottom of it. And whatever they've managed to determine or whatever they've managed to put into place to try to make the trip safer, we just don't know those details. But we are being told that there's no expected changes to the first lady's movements while she's there in Tokyo and in Cambodia afterwards, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, Michelle Kosinski working that beat for us today, thank you for that. Let us know if there are any changes at all.

And we are also awaiting possibly more information about these threats against Ambassador Kennedy. In just a few minutes, the State Department has a plan to hold a news briefing and then, of course, there is the issue in Tunisia as well. Given no Americans dead or injured in that, the State Department has a keen interest in that part of the region. So we are going to keep you abreast of that and we're going to go live to it right away.

And also, coming up next, another story, this is a tough one, a mentally ill man shot and killed by the police. In his hand, a screwdriver. You are going to see the video for yourself and you will be able to judge for yourself if it was justified.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Still with the breaking news here at CNN. We have been bringing you information on an attack on the embassy in -- or rather on a museum complex in Tunisia. And we are hearing from the State Department that there are no Americans among the 19 people who have been confirmed killed. Two attackers also shot on the spot by the responding SWAT officers. We expect to get more information from the U.S. State Department when they hold a live briefing. It's scheduled to begin in just a couple of minutes. No exact timing on it. So stick with us because we're being nimble. You've got the live shot up on the right-hand side, the small box on your screen, and we're going to pop (ph) it up just as soon as we start hearing information.

[12:20:18] I have this other story I want to bring to you in the meantime though. These are stories that are seemingly all too common. Police responding to a 911 call about a mentally ill person acting out. The mentally ill person doesn't comply, ultimately ends up dead. The latest case is making headlines out of Dallas this past June. I want to warn you, the video that we just received at CNN, it is the body cam video from the perspective of the police officer.

We're about to show it to you. It's very graphic. It's very distressing. It shows two officers arriving at a Dallas home. The mother of the mentally ill man, who called 911, says that her son is, quote, and I'm using her words, "bipolar schizo." Everything seems very calm. Thirty-eight-year-old Jason Harrison then appears behind his mother, right before the officers, and he's holding a screwdriver. And it is but seconds later that he is on the ground, unconscious and bleeding to death, suffering from multiple gunshot wounds. I want to want -- I want you to watch the video for yourself so that you can decide if you think that the officers acted appropriately.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you know, it's (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police. Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing? What's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE). Incoherent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who's that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) my son, bipolar schizo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You drop that for me. Drop that for me, guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay! Don't shoot. Oh, you killed my son! Oh, you killed my son!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). Shots fired.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, you killed my son!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) code three.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, you killed my son!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop that!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dropt it! Drop it!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put it down!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you shot my son! Oh, you shot -- oh -- oh (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) 725 (INAUDIBLE) by resident at this location. (INAUDIBLE). Gunshot wound to the torso.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh -- oh --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I need code three covered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got it. We're all right, man. It's all right, buddy. Drop it, guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put the damn thing down! Put the screwdriver down! Put the screwdriver down!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, he's not (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put the screwdriver down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it, guy.

(EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, please stand back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your camera rolling?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's rolling. Yours?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mine's -- of course mine crapped out. Oh, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, damn.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it, guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's unconscious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It is just harrowing to hear that mother crying in the background. The camera did not stop recording. It also picked up a conversation between the officers moments after the shooting. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's still alive. He's still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten four.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't let that get too far.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) watch that. He was in the doorway. He had a screwdriver.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a screwdriver.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had this behind us. We had to shoot. He came at us.

(EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So where were you, watch this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just watch that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, is there anybody else in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where's the screwdriver at?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's right there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) slowing down. We need some crime scene tape out here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We -- we shouldn't probably talk about it but -- yes, we can't talk about it. We can't talk about it, yes. He's alive. We need to get (INAUDIBLE) here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I don't -- they're en route.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Want to discuss the officers' actions with former police officer Dennis Root, who now trains officers in safe arrest tactics. And along with me also, HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson and CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos.

[12:25:06] Mr. Root, if I can ask you right off the bat, these officers -- this has been investigated. These officers are back on the job. It's very hard to know the entire picture by seeing that one body cam perspective. But from what you've seen, did you see anything untowards on the part of the officers in this response?

DENNIS ROOT, POLICE PRACTICES & USE OF FORCE EXPERT: You know, when we really take a look at the video, like you've already mentioned, it's a very small snapshot in time. There's multiple things to be considered. The first thing is the objective reasonableness of the use of deadly force, whether they perceived an actual threat to their lives or the life of the other individual involved. Then you also have to consider the training and things that go into dealing with someone who has emotional issues or mental health issues. So when you look at it, the officers have to be able to articulate their fear for their lives and the safety maybe even of the young man's mother.

But then we also have to remember our interactions and how they're going to feed into an event. When you're dealing with a -- somebody that has mental health issues, the way you communicate and the things that you do can either escalate the situation or de-escalate the situation. And I see, from a training perspective, where we have a variety of things, whether it be the consideration of how the event began to unfold, the way that they were interacting with somebody that they knew from history within their community that he has mental health issues --

BANFIELD: Yes.

ROOT: All the way up to, and including, the rendering of aid. I mean that wasn't even something that, from watching the video --

BANFIELD: Well, and thank you for bringing that up, because I could not help but notice. Listen, that video goes on a lot longer than we just aired on CNN and it looked like at no point, or certainly for several minutes, at least six, I would say, at no point did any of the officers render aid. Is that part of protocol or is that troubling?

ROOT: For me, from my perspective, it's troubling because they were involved in what they perceived apparently as a deadly force encounter. They did have a gentleman armed with a screwdriver that could be used to inflict serious bodily injury or death. But once they had secured him, in other words, they had already fired their shots, they had removed the threat, they had taken the weapon away, now they have an obligation to properly secure him, whether that be with handcuffs, just because they felt in fear of him, but also to render aid. Once the force is over, once they've achieved the objective, now they have a responsibility to do something to try to help the individual that they were just involved in this conflict with.

So I think that really when you look at the training aspects and things like that, we really have to take into consideration how much time is being allotted for officers to learn proper intervention techniques --

BANFIELD: Yes.

ROOT: And something as simple as first aid. Believe it or not, there's a lot of agencies that render minimal training in that specific topic area by itself.

BANFIELD: Let me -- let me bring in Danny and Joey on this. As attorneys, listen, we need to be very clear that the family has launched a civil lawsuit against the Dallas P.D. There is, in some of the court filings, there are suggestions that the police officers and fire and rescue and EMTs, et cetera, had been to this house 100-plus times. One hundred plus times. Does that speak against the officers or does that speak for the officers given that they would have felt comfortable being there and that something must have happened for them to actually end up opening fire? Danny.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We've come a long way in responding to calls with mental illnesses and police training. In Dallas, like many other cities, police are trained in -- or through CIT crisis intervention teams, to respond specifically to the growing problem of calls with mental illness. But that being said, even taking a five-day course on how to respond to something like this, a call like this, put that up against the hours, the months, the years of training that police get that at any moment, any event can escalate into something deadly. And what you have as a result is this sort of firing of neurons that clash with each other in the heat of the moment. Yes, they've been trained how to de-escalate a situation with someone with mental illness. But at the same time, they have so much training, such -- it's so -- they're so trained that anything could be deadly in a moment.

BANFIELD: So, Joey, Joey, the police, in their defense, they say that this man lunged at them. It's hard to tell from that perspective. You really have to slow it down and watch it a whole bunch of times and be a better investigator than I.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Right.

BANFIELD: But, again, they've been there hundreds of times. Can you see this playing the other way or does this say, you've been there hundreds of times and you knew what he was like?

JACKSON: Let's unpack this. I don't purport to know what police officers go through on the street, what must be a very difficult job. My dad was one. Through him, I know. Through being a former prosecutor, I know. But I don't know.

But I will say this. I analyze this in two respects. Number one, was there an imminent threat posed that created, you know, sort of a deadly situation? Did they fear for their own life or did they fear for serious bodily harm? That's number one.

[12:30:01] Even if you get to that step and answer yes, what concerns me and troubles me greatly is step number two. Is the force you use proportionate to the threat posed?