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Investigating Germanwings Crash. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 26, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:23:] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Back at the staging area in the French Alps, more families arriving there just absolutely stunned as they're learning their loved ones may have known they were going to die, because also from that chip in that cockpit voice recorder, we now know that there were screams, audible screams on that recording in those final moments as the aircraft careened towards those mountains.

Back with me from Cologne, Germany, is CNN's Fred Pleitgen, who just sat down with the CEO of Lufthansa .

Fred, what could he tell you about this co-pilot on board this plane?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the big question, of course, were there issues that this co-pilot might have had in the past, Andreas Lubitz, whether or not he might have had sort of mental issues and whether or not other colleagues might have seen there was potentially something wrong with him.

In this case, the Lufthansa CEO told me they have a rigorous system where people can come anonymously and report folks who they think might be having issues, whether it's something like this, whether it's some sort of psychological issue, whether they have some sort of problems at home or whether it might be some sort of alcohol-related issue. They say they have a system that's been in place and working in place.

But he also did acknowledge that in this case, that system clearly failed. Let's listen in to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSTEN SPOHR, CEO, LUFTHANSA: The pilot has passed all his tests, all his medical exams. We have at Lufthansa a reporting system where crew can report without being punished their own problems or they can report more problems of others without any kind of punishment. That hasn't been used either in this case. All the safety nets, all the safety nets we are so proud of here have not worked in this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: He also said, Brooke, that of course these pilots always go through medical evaluation all the time and especially during a time that they're cadets. They go through very hard training to see whether or not they're mentally fit to actually fly an aircraft with people in it. They go through things like assessment centers where they have to do multitasking under very difficult conditions. And he said by this individual by all accounts passed all of these

tests and was 100 percent fit to fly, at least as far as they could see. He also acknowledged that maybe they might have to change their procedures that have been in place many, many years -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Fred Pleitgen, my thanks to you in Cologne.

Right now, we know airlines and plane manufactures all across the world are facing tough questions. It centers on what you're about to see here on your screen. The cockpit door locking system, it's a keypad and a lock designed to keep passengers out with any kind of nefarious motives.

But now we have learned of this unintended consequence, keeping a pilot intent on downing a plane locked inside.

Let's talk about this with Brian Alexander, former military pilot, now a pilot and aviation attorney. Also with me, Darelle Joiner, former air marshal.

Gentlemen, great to have both of you on.

BRIAN ALEXANDER, PILOT AND AVIATION ATTORNEY: Thank you.

DARELLE JOINER, FORMER AIR MARSHAL: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: Brian, to you first. Let's just begin, before we talk about the two-person cockpit rule, which is not the play in a situation like this unfortunately, when you hear about this pilot banging on that door, I keep thinking of the people who must have been sitting and watching this in the front of the cabin, banging on the door, how could he have gained entry?

ALEXANDER: Really, that's the crux of this problem. You have the door designed after 9/11 specifically to keep people from being able to enter it. They can withstand up to a grenade.

BALDWIN: A grenade.

ALEXANDER: A grenade level of force is the requirement. There's really not a good way to get in, other than the system as it was designed with a secret code which covers some circumstances.

What's interesting here is the circumstance that has happened, the scenario, which one would think the security community would have thought of certainly and provided for, clearly slipped through the cracks as to these carriers. When we think about the U.S. carriers, they at least made an effort by having the requirement for another crew member in the cockpit when a change of this of sort is happening.

That kind of at least assists and reduces the possibility of a rogue pilot being able to do this.

[15:05:00] BALDWIN: Darelle, as a former air marshal, I'm also wondering would there have been the presence of an air marshal on board this? This was a budget airline, this was short flight. Do you know if an air marshal would have been there?

JOINER: I can't really speak to the requirements of a foreign carrier.

However, I do know that some of the foreign nations do have security programs in place. I'm not going to say because of the size of the budget of the aircraft that that would determine whether there would be a team on it or not. They have their own specific filters as to why or why not they wouldn't be on an actual aircraft.

BALDWIN: Tell me what you can speak to. You have heard all these details from the prosecutor, to the CEO of Lufthansa. What jumps out at you?

JOINER: Yes, absolutely.

I think the gentleman just spoke to it. I think the number one thing that is missing is the regulation which is requiring a second crew member to be in that cockpit at all times. We as air marshals, when I was flying -- I'm no longer an air marshal now, but when I was an air marshal, we knew the regulations. We knew that in order for one of the flight deck officers, meaning the pilots, to come out, a flight crew member had to go inside first.

Had we seen something like that occur, we would have brought immediate attention to that matter and obviously intervened.

BALDWIN: And then my next thought, Brian, as I mentioned a moment ago, because this whole time, I have just been thinking what are these passengers thinking, first of all? At what point did they realize they were descending? And then to think of a pilot banging on the door and that was loud enough to picked up by the little microphones in the cockpit tells me they would have had to have seen this pilot making this ruckus.

I just have to wonder, would we ever know if any of these individuals got up to try to help him or perhaps thought he shouldn't have been doing what he was something?

ALEXANDER: Yes. One can only shutter to think about what was going through the minds of the passengers as they witnessed this particular pilot try to get in. And as the airplane begins what was not an uncontrolled descent, but was still a much -- an abnormal descent, they had to know that...

BALDWIN: What would that have felt like? We know the co-pilot activated the descent. That's the words from the CEO. What would that have felt like if you were on the plane?

ALEXANDER: Well, as I said, it's probably at two times at least, maybe even a little bit more than that, what a normal descent would be towards a landing, for example, and 1,000 to 1,500 feet would be normal. Here we have, based on the radar information, a descent that is more like 3,000 or 4,000 feet at various times during this descent.

While it's controlled, you're not falling out of the sky, the forces would have been significant. You certainly would have known that something was amiss. And then you throw into it again the pilot trying to get in, that seals the deal that something terrible is happening. And then it's for eight or nine minutes. I just honestly can't even imagine the agony that these poor, poor folks had to suffer through.

BALDWIN: Knowing, Darelle, knowing all the while according to this chip that amazingly has been found amid the wreckage from the cockpit voice recorder, knowing that this co-pilot was heard breathing normally, so that means not a stroke, not a heart attack, how do you read that?

JOINER: I read that as this was a definitely deliberate act. I think that it speaks to possibly or potentially a better program in place to make sure they're doing as much as they can to be certain that you're evaluating these flight deck officers before they take these flights, having psychological evaluations take place not just at the initial hiring, but also possibly through -- and then also as a co-pilot knowing your person.

As a former federal air marshal, we always knew our partners who were flying with us. You would be able to detect if there was sense of change or erratic behavior or anything in place. So, apparently, there was a certain sense of comfort here amongst the flight crew, in which cases they normally are, because a lot of flight crews fly together on trips.

However, I think this is one that just slipped through the crack as it seems now through more information coming out from the investigation.

BALDWIN: Darelle, thank you.

Brian, I have just been told by the control room we're going to do this together on the fly. I just found out we got a picture. This is the actual plane. This is the cockpit of the plane. This is a photo from actually -- it was just taken a couple of days ago. I know cockpits differ obviously depending on the airline and the type of aircraft.

But when you look at this, what do you see?

ALEXANDER: Here, the thing -- this is just a normal cockpit for the A-320, of course. It's a complex system.

The thing to remember about this aircraft is it's a fly by wire, so it's highly technical computerized aircraft. But it's really a simple system that we're focused on now when we talk about the door. There's one button that the pilot inside would control to override the outside sequencing of the secret code to get in.

It's not that complicated. Again, the one thing that's just unfortunately tragic here is they didn't contemplate this scenario, at least in this aircraft, and put in a procedure, maybe not even a perfect one, to have another person up front, but nonetheless at least reducing this possibility of a rogue pilot. [15:10:06] BALDWIN: But we also know -- you tell me if you know

anyone on this cockpit where -- again this is the very plane that crashed in the Alps. This is the actual cockpit.

We did learn also this morning from the news conference that whoever is in the cockpit, there's a screen. You can see who's outside that cockpit door.

ALEXANDER: That's right. That's designed specifically for the primary purpose of having a secure door, an impenetrable door, when you do have someone leave the cockpit, you want to make sure when they're trying to come back in, that they're not under duress, that they're not someone with a box cutter, as we saw on 9/11, to their throat trying to gain access in that way.

Video confirmation is a part of that process or audio in some other aircraft or both. That makes perfect sense. That is what deals with that particular threat. It's the other threat inside that the European carriers apparently or Lufthansa included did not really see through.

BALDWIN: I guess the part that really gets me is the fact you know there's this code outside this door. You know if the pilot had tried to type the code in, this loud high-pitched piercing alarm goes off in the cockpit for at least 30 seconds, as it's been explained to me.

The person inside the cockpit has a couple of options. Right? They can either open the door. They can refuse entry, thus locking the door. Or after the 30 seconds, that door automatically opens. That pilot should have been able to go in the cockpit. That didn't happen.

(CROSSTALK)

ALEXANDER: That didn't because of the override.

BALDWIN: Because of the override.

ALEXANDER: Because of the override, which gives the pilot in the cockpit, the remaining person up there, the ability to override the secret code. Just terrible.

BALDWIN: Brian Alexander, thank you very, very much.

And, Darelle Joiner, my thanks to you. Just horrible. There are no words for this one.

Coming up next, we don't know what exactly was going on inside the co- pilot's head. Why? But if he was depressed, if he was suicidal, would the airline have known about that? The guidelines or perhaps lack thereof of psychological evaluations, we will look at that.

Plus, the chilling audio from the cockpits. The pilots, as we mentioned, the ordinary, the normal breathing that was heard in the cockpit voice recorder and the people on the plane in those final moments heard screaming. What investigators will learn from those pieces of information. Also, the crash site and the families. We will take you live where

these mothers and fathers and sons and daughters are now gathering there in the French Alps, as they have arrived on the scene to stop and mourn. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:51] BALDWIN: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching our live special coverage here of this crashed plane in the French Alps.

And the mental well-being -- let's begin there, the mental well-being of this Germanwings Flight 9525 co-pilot obviously has come into much scrutiny after this French prosecutor now today saying this 28-year- old who is pictured here deliberately locked his captain out of the cockpit and steered the plane into the French Alps.

The airline's parent company, Lufthansa, said this young man, Andreas Lubitz, passed all the required psychological tests when he was hired. But it was also revealed that the airline does not routinely conduct psychological testing for its pilots after they're on staff, just medical, not psychological. A member of Lubitz's flight club described the co-pilot as a funny, regular guy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER REUCKER, KNEW ANDREAS LUBITZ (through translator): Andreas was a very nice young man who underwent training here. He was a member of the club. He was funny. Sometimes, maybe he was a bit quiet. He was a boy like many boys we have here. He was integrated well and he had fun here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk about the psychological testing or lack thereof with Elizabeth Cohen, our senior medical correspondent.

Let's just begin with pilot mental health screenings. I know Lufthansa doesn't use them ordinarily once you're hired.

First, just what about here in the United States?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, I think a lot of people will be surprised to hear we don't use them in the United States after someone is hired.

We don't do regular screening or regular testing for any kind for psychological issues. Pilots get physicals once a year or twice a year. The examiners are given explicit instructions by the FAA for what to ask. It's very detailed.

I want to just read you a little part and show you a little part of that.

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: And it says: "The FAA does not expect the examiner to perform a formal psychiatric examination."

Not only do they not do them. But they specifically say we don't expect you to be doing a formal psyche exam.

BALDWIN: We know this co-pilot was a fairly recent hire, though. At least we're not talking about someone that had been on the job 20 years and had that psychological exam two decades ago. This was someone who was hired in the last few years.

So when he underwent this psychological testing, what kinds of questions, what would they have looked at?

COHEN: You mean when he was first hired, what would they have looked at?

BALDWIN: Yes.

COHEN: Right. That test was probably pretty -- they do these testings regularly when they hire police officers, firefighters, at least in this country.

It is pretty thorough, at least in this country, where they look for a variety of different things that could possibly be wrong. But I want to talk a little bit about what's done once somebody is already hired, because even though I think it was about two years ago that he was hired, a lot can change in two years.

BALDWIN: Sure.

COHEN: So, at least in this country, the FAA tells doctors, typically a family doctor doing the annual physical, try to get a general impression of the pilot's psychological state, just a general impression.

For example, they say, ask the pilot if he or she is experiencing anxiety or depression. They name some other issues. Observe the pilot for bizarre behavior while you're with the pilot. Is the pilot delusional? Are they hallucinating?

[15:20:05] They do these sort of very broad-brush kinds of things. But professionals have pointed out to me you can fake your way through that, even if you are feeling anxious or depressed. You can say just that you're not. Even if you are delusional, you can get sort of yourself together for that one physical and say you're not delusional, because you would lose your job if you were.

The psychologists I talked to poked a lot of holes at this way of doing things.

BALDWIN: This is something that Fred Pleitgen was just asking the CEO of Lufthansa about, saying why haven't you changed this? He was basically like, well, it's something we will look into.

Elizabeth Cohen, Valuable information. Thank you very much.

COHEN: Thanks. BLITZER: Next, the last few moments on that Germanwings flight must

have been beyond terrifying. Investigators say on that cockpit audio recorder they can hear in those final moments the screams from the passengers. That was all found on this mangled black box on that chip. What else they're learning from that recording, a forensic audio expert will walk me through that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:25] BALDWIN: Just in to CNN, the leaders of the rebels in Yemen spoke out just a couple of minutes ago. Today, Saudi Arabia with a coalition of other Arab nations launched these airstrikes against his group in Yemen.

The supreme leader of the Houthis said if any group troops entered -- quote -- "our country, we will prove that Yemen will be a grave for those who invade us" -- end quote. He then urged for the airstrikes to stop. The Houthi rebels unseated the U.S.-backed president in Yemen and the nation is now on the brink of civil war. The Saudis plan to send as many as 5,000 ground troops in the coming days.

And back to our breaking news here on this plane. The cockpit audio has become everything in the case of this crashed Germanwings Flight 9525. It's the audio file inside of this damaged black box that, according to a French prosecutor, has revealed the co-pilot's actions and the co-pilot's intentions, not just the fact that he locked that cockpit door with the captain banging on that door inside wanting to come back in, but that this co-pilot's breathing was "steady, normal," eliminating, at least in the prosecutor's mind, the possibility he was in any physical distress.

Paul Ginsberg is a forensic audio expert with more than four decades of experience, including assisting the CIA, the FBI.

Always wonderful to have you on here, though we hate the circumstances of this story and just all these details coming about what was heard on this audio recording. I think before we start to dissect, it's so important to explain to everyone, this is just the initial assessment. This is not when they have isolated and turned up any of the audio on this.

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: Exactly. Correct.

This is like a doctor being asked to diagnose a patient over the telephone. Needs to have the patient there, examined, do all sorts of tests and then finally draw conclusions. This can take weeks, months or even longer.

BALDWIN: But the fact that, to use your metaphor of a doctor diagnosing someone over the phone, that despite that they have still been able to figure out that the co-pilot was breathing regularly, there were screams on the plane in the final moments, that there was banging on the cockpit door, to me, says a lot.

GINSBERG: To me, it says the system, the electronic systems were working. The noise-canceling microphones that the pilot and the co-pilot have

were working, so that you could hear the breathing through the very, very loud cockpit noise, and that the recording was sensitive enough to allow us to hear the banging on the door and the people on the other side of the door in the passenger compartment.

The information I feel is there. We now have to analyze it and develop what it means.

BALDWIN: I think again, just to reiterate your point, the cockpit is a loud place. It's a very loud place. Then you add to it the banging on the door and the fact that they could still hear the breathing of this co-pilot?

GINSBERG: Correct and the engine sounds and air. It's noisy, very noisy.

BALDWIN: What else -- walk me through the process of when they really start to analyze this and what else they could potentially hear.

GINSBERG: OK.

We first download all four channels. There's one channel for the pilot, one for the co-pilot, one for intercom to the passenger compartment, and a final one, a microphone in the cockpit to hear everything, voices, as well as instrumentation, alerts, alarms, and anything else that goes on in the cockpit.

All of these are downloaded and played in synchronization and then also joined with the flight data recorder that hopefully we will have, radar information, weather information. Everything is put together.

(CROSSTALK)

GINSBERG: There are so many inputs before we can really get a meaningful take on this.

BALDWIN: Just quickly, do you think that we will even be able to hear perhaps some voices of the passengers sitting in the front of the cabin, maybe jumping in to assist this pilot banging on the door?

GINSBERG: That's -- I have been called a audio archaeologist for digging these sounds out. And that's a tough dig.

BALDWIN: That's a tough dig.

Paul Ginsberg, we will wait for that final report. I appreciate your expertise very, very much.

Let's move along and ask more questions here about all of this, including, how easy is it to lock the captain out of the cockpit? We will look inside a simulator for an Airbus plane similar to the one that crashed in France to see exactly how that lock works. That's straight ahead.

Also , we have just secured a picture of the cockpit from this exact plane that crashed. This was taken, would you believe, mere days ago. We will dissect exactly what this picture shows us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)