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Dr. Drew
Airline Crash Mystery: Co-Pilot Deliberately Destroys Plane; Lufthansa Ceo: Airline Does Not Do Ongoing Psychological Testing; The Sole Survivor Passenjet Crash Shares Her Story
Aired March 26, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:06] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, breaking news. Airline crash mystery, co-pilot deliberately destroys a
plane carrying 150 passengers and crew. 150 souls lot, but why? The airline says he was 100 percent fit. 100 percent fit to fly. I will tell
you why. In my opinion that means nothing.
How could this mass murder suicide have been prevented? Let us get started with the most tweeted story of the day. It is breaking news tonight about
the co-pilot, who deliberately slammed a plane into a mountain range killing all 150 on board. What was his mental state? What was his
motivation? We are going to try to figure that out. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRICE ROBIN, MARSEILLE PROSECUTOR: At the moment, I consider it to be deliberate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Before the plane`s rapid descent, one of the pilots left the cockpit and was unable to get back in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN: It is clear that the co-pilot took advantage of the flight captain`s leaving the cockpit. It does seem that he was breathing
normally. It is not the breathing of somebody, who is having a stroke or heart attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN: I am speechless that this aircraft was deliberately crashed by the co-pilot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN: He used this button to lose altitude for reasons that are totally unknown at the moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: A 28-year-old German native, Andreas Lubitz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: They are absolutely combing every single hard drive to find out what could have motivated this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Lubitz passed his initial medical screening, but the Lufthansa CEO said the airline does not do ongoing psychological
testing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: He says that he was 100 percent fit to fly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The co-pilot said nothing despite all the urgency and warnings from the captain on the outside, as he was trying to
break in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are taking your questions throughout the hour at #germanwingscues. So #germanwingscues. We will put you on the air and we
will answer your questions. From my panel, Evy Poumpouras, Security Expert, former special agent secret service; Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on
Hulu.com and Emily Roberts, psychotherapist.
Here is what we know about this guy, this co-pilot. He is a German 27 years old, hired less than two years ago. Completed somewhere around 630
hours of flight time. Evy, the question on everyone`s mind is, if you want to commit suicide, just kill yourself. Why bring down 150 souls with you?
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: Yes. I understand that. But if you look -- first of all, if you look at his history and you read up on what we know
about him, he loved flying. He loved it from a very young age. And, he was obsessed with it.
And, if he is having these issues or whatever issues he was dealing with, if he wants to end his life, he is thinking, "I want to end it probably in
the way that it makes me happiest." If you are disconnected and if you got psychological issues, you are not really thinking about the people in the
back.
And, you know what, Dr. Drew? We would see this or I would see this in law enforcement when you see individuals who would -- it was death by suicide.
You know, by cops.
PINSKY: By cops. Suicide by cops.
POUMPOURAS: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: Correct. Where they would do these actions where they go out and do random killings, and just shoot random people because they wanted to
die.
PINSKY: Yes. Those people are usually in acute agitated states. I have seen those people. And, they are -- literally, their eyes are spinning
around. You would not want to be around somebody like that.
They are really not usually -- it is not a quiet premeditated sort of a thing the way this seems to have been, where he just is having a normal day
and all of a sudden -- boom, he locks out his pilot.
Emily, do you think a depression, which allegedly this guy suffered from, do you think depression is an explanation of any sort here?
EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Not at all. I think it is murder. We keep calling it suicide. And, yes, he killed himself, but he murdered all
these innocent people. This -- I do not even believe that this has to do with depression.
I think this is something a little bit deeper and something that is maybe not even on -- within the DSM in a way. I really think this is an evil
guy. And, you know, it may not be a mental health thing. It maybe that he just really is a Sicko.
PINSKY: Emily. Emily --
ROBERTS: And that is what I -- that is how I can put it.
PINSKY: Emily, would not you have expected there to be some evidence of that kind of nonsense at other times in his life? I mean think about the
kind of people we put under the evil moniker.
There are people that torture animals. There are people that have no sense of other people. They do not have friends. I mean this guy seemed to be
conducting a normal life.
ROBERTS: Exactly. He seemed to be conducting a normal life. He also did not meet any sort of criteria before he got on the plane, right? He looked
normal. No one can pick up anything. He was not having sort of, you know, hallucinations. Anything like that. Nothing to really drive him. We also
do not have all the information.
PINSKY: Yes, that is right.
ROBERTS: We are only hearing a little bit of information at this point.
PINSKY: No. That is right. And, he is --
ROBERTS: Yes. So, we do not know if he is going to have some of this.
PINSKY: Right. He is in an age group where major psychiatric illness can come on. And, if you are pilot, the last thing you want anyone to know is
that you got that kind of a condition because you will lose your job.
You will not be able to fly an aircraft, which is why I want to bring in Rob Waldo Waldman, a retired Air Force pilot and author of "Never Flies
Solo." Waldo, what happens if a pilot admits that he or she is suffering from a psychiatric condition?
[21:05:01] WALDO WALDMAN, USAF PILOT (RET.): Well, number one, you are grounded because it could definitely impact your ability to get the job
done. And, number two, you meet a review board. In the military in particular, you are constantly being evaluated by your peers. You are
constantly getting new training.
It is under a very stressful environments. When you look at this young man, 27 years old, 750 hours, that is not a lot of time. In the U.S., in
the FAA, you need at least 1,500 hours for the most part and special, you know, certifications to fly. Because there is a pilot shortage, in
particular overseas, they let these young men and women fly. They are inexperienced.
PINSKY: Oh, that is interesting.
WALDMAN: They do not have a lot of training. So, they are at an extreme disadvantage in that subjective analysis from the captain, walking in the
door saying, "How are you today?" "How long you have been flying?" It is very, very important. These are human beings flying very, very
sophisticated aircraft and responsible for other people`s lives.
PINSKY: And, Waldo, let me ask you what your sense of what happened is. Because, listen, I fluctuate back and forth between thinking, "Oh, maybe he
had, you know, cerebral aneurysm or something. He became confused. He thought he was setting the aircraft to the right settings.
He really did not know what he was doing and locked the door for some - because he was confused." Or this guy is psychiatrically ill, may have
been responding to some stimuli that we do not understand. Or he just was a bad dude that was feeling aggressive. You know, when you feel angry, you
feel angry against everybody.
WALDMAN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: So, do one of those three fit your sense of what might have happen here?
WALDMAN: Well, like I said there, human beings flying these aircraft. They walk into that cockpit. There is a tremendous amount of
responsibility. So, I think this individual had some very, very serious latent issues, depression --
PINSKY: Psychological stuff. Yes.
WALDMAN: He could have been -- I think in the early part of his career, he left the cockpit for a while. You do not know if he had a drinking
problem, a female problem, some emotional problems. And, you cannot tell many times walking into the cockpit or even somebody -- a co-worker perhaps
at work here at CNN, who is having an issue, a problem.
PINSKY: Well, I can usually tell -- I can usually tell. Sam --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Yes?
PINSKY: Do you want to make a comment?
SCHACHER: I want to.
PINSKY: I want you also to give me any of the tweets that are coming in, because --
SCHACHER: Yes. OK. I can do both.
PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead.
SCHACHER: I have a question quick for Waldo.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Because, Waldo, I was talking to you in the green room. And, I learned that not only have you flown with a co-pilot, but you have trained
pilots. So, through your experience, have you ever been in a situation where you notice, "Hmm, something is off about this pilot?" And, if you
had been in that situation, did you feel like you had to alert somebody? Is there protocol that goes along with that?
WALDMAN: Absolutely. you are the pilot in command. As an instructor pilot, I was a pilot in command as an F-16 pilot. I was the pilot in
command. So, I would fly with these young men and women, very inexperienced, nervous, scared, under a lot of pressure.
But, I have flown with very experienced pilots, teaching them how to be instructor pilots. I have had to take the aircraft away from senior
officers with more hours than me because they lost focus.
SCHACHER: Wow!
WALDMAN: I was also, actually, struck by lightning as a pilot with a senior instructor in the cockpit with me. He freaked out. I had to take
the aircraft from him and actually land the aircraft. You never know what type of stressor is going to set somebody off.
So, once again, people, it requires discipline, accountability and a good wing man in the cockpit or outside who is going to notice the problems.
Check your blind spot and intervene when necessary.
SCHACHER: And, then I have a tweet --
PINSKY: Hang on, Sam. I got to ask something real quick. We are going to get to the tweets in the next block, I think because -- My question on the
heels of what Waldo just said is, is not the -- are these people precisely who should be very carefully psychiatrically and psychologically screened?
And, they do not seemed to be.
I mean they said he is 100 percent fit. I have done some of the physical exams for pilots. They are mostly focused on their vision and that they
have their blood pressure and pulse, and that is about it. They are not careful neurologic exams. They are nominal mental health screens. Should
not we be doing a little better in that front?
WALDMAN: There is, as a matter of fact in the airlines in the United States, the pilots view each other. If there is -- you can list up to five
pilots that you do not want to fly with.
If there is a trend, if a flight attendant does not like a pilot, feels they are aggressive or whatever, if you get written up, you either meet a
review board, get counseling, the union gets involved, the airline can get involved.
So, there is a degree of peer to peer review. And, if you do not continue to qualify, if you are ticking people off and are not fit to fly and are
not 100 percent safe, you can lose your wings permanently.
PINSKY: All right.
WALDMAN: So, U.S. take it seriously, but probably it is different over in Europe.
PINSKY: Well, it seems to be. And, next up, this is not the first time there has been a so-called killer in the cockpit. So, what are the plans
to do more to protect us?
And, later, if you are afraid to fly since this tragedy, we will talk to a pilot about concurring fear of flying. We are back after this.
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Could there have been indications that this person might have been mentally unstable?
CARSTEN SPOHR, LUFTHANSA CEO: No. The pilot has passed all his tests, all his medical exams. We have at Lufthansa a reporting system where crew can
report without being punished their own problems or they can report about problems of others without any kind of punishment.
We do have a safety procedure in place in case the remaining pilot gets unconscious. There is a way to open the door from the outside, unless the
person in the inside blocks it. And, this apparently has happened here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Evy, Sam, Emily and breaking news. We are talking about the co-pilot who intentionally crashed a plane into the French Alps,
killing all 150 on board. Evy, do you think this is a premeditated in some sinister way?
[21:15:00] POUMPOURAS: Yes, I do think it is premeditated. I do think it is premeditated because if you look at just the way the whole thing worked
out. He sat there. He flew the plane. As soon as that pilot left, he locked that door and he altered the adjustment for that aircraft.
And he sat there and he deliberately -- there was a time span of ten minutes, ten minutes where all this was happening where he could hear the
people screaming outside. You could hear the pilot banging on the door. And, he stayed on course with what he was going to do.
PINSKY: You know, I think --
POUMPOURAS: He did not change his mind.
PINSKY: I know. And, people ask why the autopilot? Apparently -- let me bring in Waldo back in. Waldo, apparently, he set the autopilot at the
steepest decline that it could do and then sort of sat back and like breathed calmly or like probably meditated or something. Because he knew
if he was doing it on his own, he might pull out of it, right?
WALDMAN: Right. Well, I cannot truly assess what this person did. Obviously, he had serious mental issues to kill people like that. And, it
is a tragedy either way you look at it. But, you know, in the U.S., FAA and airlines in the United States, we have to have that two-person rule. I
do not know if you guys are familiar with it.
We never allow one person in the cockpit. There always has to be two. Either both pilots, a pilot and a jump seater, or somebody that is not
necessarily flying but a pilot that is just kind of dead heading they call it. And, also even a flight attendant. So, there is accountability.
Because that person was in there by himself, he gets clicking off switch, set it.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALDMAN: And, you know, maybe this was a sense of power. Maybe this was his way of getting back at the world, getting the attention that he wanted.
You just never know --
PINSKY: Oh my God!
WALDMAN: -- but it was definitely intentional and definitely manic.
PINSKY: Well, let me play a little tape of what one of his friends said about him. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (translated to English): Andreas was a very nice young man who got his training here and was a member of the club. He was a
lot of fun, even though he was perhaps sometimes a bit quiet. He was just another boy like so many others here. He was well integrated and I think
he had a lot of fun here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And of course, Emily, that does not really mean anything, does it?
ROBERTS: Not at all. What is freaking me out the most here, actually, is why are these people being self-monitored for mental health? I am not even
self-monitored for my mental health -- How am I letting a pilot when I walk on the plane by his peers review or he deems himself appropriate be my
pilot? Waldo, maybe you can help me answer that question, because I think --
PINSKY: Well, let me just say. I would say, Emily, I think they are trying to use a model that healthcare providers` use. But to be fair,
healthcare providers know how to evaluate these things. We evaluate one another and we have some training in doing so.
ROBERTS: Right, absolutely.
PINSKY: But I have -- Waldo, I will bring you back. I have worked with the airlines a little bit for -- on their alcoholic pilots. And, they do a
very good job with them. They really monitor them very, very carefully. They bring them back appropriately.
They follow the direction of a professional team. So, my experience has been good. I just wonder if they have expanded or really -- if they have a
sophisticated approach as it pertains to other neurological medical and mental health issues.
WALDMAN: Well, as a matter of fact, just going back to, I think what Emily said or Evy. I do not even know if you guys know that before you fly an
airline plane, the pilots have to visually sign off on how they feel, number 1. So, it is self-assessment.
Because a lot of times you have triggers that you may not even be aware of. You may be having a bad day. You got to ask yourself, "Am I ready?" And,
then the captain is responsible for that other pilot asking them, "Hey, how are you feeling today?" There is a little bit of self-assessment.
But, remember also, these are professionals. These are highly-trained individuals. You know we are not wondering if somebody is going to walk
into the cockpit one day and crash it into the ground. It is just not part of the agenda of a professional --
PINSKY: Yes.
WALDMAN: -- and the training they have.
PINSKY: Right.
WALDMAN: But once again, it happens. I mean --
PINSKY: It is human. It is human.
WALDMAN: -- people walk in -- people are going into a high school and murder people. People kill themselves. You would not even know it, but
this is a human issue.
PINSKY: Well, usually -- here is the thing. This is what I report all the time on this show and on CNN, is that you do usually have good hints.
There is usually something that lets you know that had is somebody who should have been referred for help before the disaster. Sam, what is going
on, on Twitter? Give me some of the Twitter feeds.
SCHACHER: OK. So, we had a number of tweets about the psychology screening, but I feel like that we have answered that. I want to move on
to Miranda Wood`s tweet.
he tweets, "Why do not we have live cameras on planes. So, when we detect something wrong, we can help the innocent and take over and help?" So,
preventative measures. What other additional preventative measures could exist?
PINSKY: Waldo.
WALDMAN: I think that is not very logical to have live cameras on the plane. You cannot constantly be monitored. You have to be relaxed in that
cockpit, focused. You know, if you do not say the perfect thing -- I think that is not something that is going to happen. However, one thing I want
to say is that a lot of times -- you bring work home and you bring home to work.
[21:20:03] I think there has to be assessment from spouses, from friends, from co-workers. We need to be more cognizant than ever of the issues
that are going on, in people`s lives that may trigger something like this.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALDMAN: Look at terrorism. Look at depression going on. You just watch the news and you could be depressed in seconds. So, assessment from your
peers, your wing men in your personal and professional life that may not be working with you, but who can call out what I call a missile launch.
Hey, you, you know, are not having a good day. You do not seem right. And, it takes a lot of courage to do that. To really call somebody out and
to possibly tick them off to do the right thing. We need to do that at work and --
PINSKY: I completely agree. In fact, I encourage people whatever your field of employee or whatever you do -- you know if you are in school,
whatever it might be, you see something, you say something. But, I also want to point out to viewers that this is not the first time a pilot has
deliberately crashed a plane.
In 1994, there was a morocco flight killed 44. In 1999, I hope you remembered this one. There is an Egypt air flight flew out of JFK and
right into the ocean, killed 217. Still debated what that was, but it seemed like it was a suicide.
In Namibia, there was a 2013 flight where 33 people were killed. Now, here also an interesting study, the FAA released last year. Aircraft assisted
pilot suicides in the U.S. from 2003 to 2012. There are eight instances.
The pilots were all male. Some of these had drug and alcohol or even anti- depressant associated with the incident. And, this guy does not seem to fit that pattern, per se, Waldo. This is not -- I guess you could say,
perhaps, he is male. They were older, too.
The median age was something like late middle ages are in their 40s when men tend to get things like depression. But is this guy is so young and so
new to the aviation industry. He does not really fit the pattern.
WALDMAN: Yes. That is very, very true. And, that is why I think there has to be better processes and procedures maybe overseas like they do in
the United States. The two minimum persons -- Two-person rule in the cockpit.
You know, after 9/11 when they had the doors and the codes on the door to prevent people from going in, there is going to be some benefits to that.
There are also going to be some problems.
So, we need to cut out maybe implement some new processes within the cockpit that will overcome human error, human issues, psychosis or
whatever.
PINSKY: Yes. And, not just human issues. There could be medical things. People can have sudden brain problems, neurological problems, bleeding
infections, things that can make them misconstrue the circumstances they are in. We are human biological beings. Stuff can happen.
I have a pilot up next who has dedicated his life to helping terrified passengers get back on the planes and get over their fear of flying. I had
fear of flying at one point. It was terrible.
And, later, if you have questions, we will continue to take them, #germanwingsques. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:26:54] UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The impact was instantaneous, 7,000 kilometers -- 700 rather kilometers an hour, the speed of the impact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN: I reckon that the victims only became aware of what was going on at the very last moment. Let me finish. Because on the tape, sound that we
are hearing, the screams are only in the very last moments before impact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: This person says that they did not feel they knew what was going on until very close when the plane slammed into the
ground. Although, it makes me wonder if your pilot is locked out and banging on the door, you would know something is up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Evy, Sam and Emily. These are chilling details coming to light about the horrific case the what is being called a multiple murder
suicide. I call it a mass murder suicide aboard Germanwings Flight 9525. And, sam, you have some information about the co-pilot`s social profile.
SCHACHER: Yes. His Facebook page, Dr. Drew, which has since been taken down, by the way. But, It did reflect a pretty normal guy. So, according
to published reports, on his Facebook page, he likes flying the Airbus 320, which is the plane he took down.
He linked to a pilot`s chat room. He mentioned a German astronaut who went to the international space station last year. He liked gadgets, electronic
music, discos, bowling. Really normal. He had a sense of humor. No red flags on his Facebook page.
PINSKY: It is so weird.
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: It almost makes it more disturbing.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: And, it is harder to understand. If we could link it to something. Yes, Evy, you got incredulity written all over your face. And,
Waldo just taught us something interesting too is that the pilot is ultimately responsible for the aircraft. So, you do not think that way,
but that is the responsible party. And, then we have this guy behaving strange ways but not a clue as to why.
POUMPOURAS: You know, I was laughing earlier because you guys were talking about his social media. And, because everything looks normal on his
Facebook page, well then he must be normal human being. And, then we always talk about, "Oh my God! This person seems so normal. Why would
they do such a thing?"
And, this is what baffles me sometimes. People who have underlying issues, deep issues, they do not always walk around with, you know, this crazy
template on their forehead, screaming and acting erratically. Sometimes they are very high functioning individuals.
So, you can have mental and emotional disorders and still be of high functioning. Another thing is he is in the cockpit. He is lucid. He is
breathing. And, we talked earlier in the last block about how he is just quiet and peaceful.
To me, that is somebody who is very aware of what is going on. OK? So, often when you are dealing with people who do suicides or people who are
about to do something where they know their life is going to end, they tend to Dr. Drew enter into a moment of peace and clarity. They become quiet
and peaceful because know they know the end is coming. And, they actually feel better.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. That is true. It is true. People -- when people make a decision to kill themselves, they are giving their things away and that
kind of thing. They want to die. That is really part of the crazy thinking of being suicidal. But, that does not factor in the mass murder.
That part -- that is so alter.
ROBERTS: Right.
[21:30:00] PINSKY: That is so different from what the average -- what the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people who want to hurt themselves.
They are not interested in harming other people. They are interested in ending their pain. What is that, Evy?
POUMPOURAS: But, Dr. Drew, you are seeing it -- this is the thing. You see it from your perspective, from your eyes as a doctor, as you. You are
seeing the world in the way you see it and you are saying, "How could someone do this?"
But, what we have to do -- if you are doing a true forensic profile on someone, we have to see it from his eyes, his world and what is going on in
social media, that means nothing.
I want to interview his friends, his family. I want to know what he did. I want to know if he tortured animals when he was a kid. I want to know
everything about this person. But, you have to see the world through his eyes.
So, although we sit here and sometimes we are baffled by the things people do, I have to tell you, Dr. Drew, human beings, people, we are capable of
the most wonderful, extraordinary things. And, we at the same time are capable of the most heinous awful things. If the human behind can think,
it can do it even if it says devious and evil as this.
PINSKY: Emily, I want you to ring in here. I am feeling, as usual I am feeling pretty gross after -- after Evy talks about how bad people could
be. I am used to thinking in terms of understanding, explaining, coming to terms with some sort of way of understanding the behavior.
ROBERTS: Understanding. I think I am with you, too. I am a little confused myself. And I agree with her in some capacity. There is a way
for us to, you know, not -- of course, we do not know anything that is going on in his life. And, Facebook is not going to tell us much.
But, at the same time, what we are seeing is -- usually people who have these mass murder profiles, right? Like these criminals. There are cues.
There are some signs within his life. You are not going to let this guys on a plane necessarily or you are not going to -- I mean there is a lot of
other things that we are going to look for, right?
PINSKY: Right.
ROBERTS: There is a lot of other things that we would actually see that would show that he is kind of this psycho guy.
PINSKY: Yes.
ROBERTS: And, no one is coming out and saying he was a psycho. Everyone is like, "He is so lovable." "He is so great."
PINSKY: Right. Or anything, they are not giving us a shred of evidence of anything peculiar --
ROBERTS: Right. Right.
PINSKY: -- which is what is the most confusing, but Evy says no. I want to bring in Captain Tom Bunn. He is a retired airline pilot and he is also
a therapist himself. He is founder of fearofflying.com.
And, I am certain that the conversation we are all having here is making people even more and more and more anxious. Captain Bunn, help me explain
to people what they can do if they are having severe fear of flying as a result of all this.
CAPT. TOM BUNN, RETIRED AIRLINE PILOT AND FOUNDER OF FEAROFFLYING.COM: Well, what we can do is we can train the emotional part of the mind to --
when on the plane just not produce the stressors that cause the trouble. It is pretty easy to do.
But, I do want to mention something. As I was listening in on what you are saying. And, you are looking at a person that why would a person cause
this mass murder. And, one of the things that comes to my mind is schizoid personality disorder where a person just does not connect.
PINSKY: Yes.
CAPT. BUNN: They live maybe -- Maybe extensively, they look normal but inside they are not connected.
PINSKY: Yes.
CAPT. BUNN: And, I am thinking, for example -- in fact, you know, flying an airplane is a pretty disconnected job. You know, you are way above the
earth. You do not necessarily connect with people. If you have someone who is profoundly schizoid, they live their whole life on the edge of
suicide, because life does not have any juice in it.
PINSKY: But usually those people are not described as fun and like everybody else and social, but we may find out differently. I mean that
was one guy`s report. I mean you are right.
And, there are also people that have psychopathic brains that they compensate for, do not become psychopath. There is all kinds of things
that can happen. But usually there is a shred of evidence. There is a hint of this going on. And, I just do not see any of that. Do you, Tom?
CAPT. BUNN: No. I know, I am also thinking that when you have a person who is not really connecting with his real self, his act may be something
that people interpret as being, "Hey, he is a nice friendly guy." But, I would be willing to bet there is no one who is close to him.
PINSKY: That would not be surprising. If we find that piece of evidence, then this starts to fall into place for me. I am with you on that. And,
again, I had severe fear of flying, and you can get over it. Tom, you taught me that it peeks around age 27. Is that right?
CAPT. BUNN: Yes. That was funny. You know what, that was the research we did. And, we were kind of surprised that it really clusters right around
that age. And, when you ask a person about their fear of flying, they talk about how come I used to fly OK and now I do not. It has to do with
maturing, you know?
When you are a kid you think nothing is going to go wrong. And, as you get a little older, you realize something to debut, you start paying attention
to protecting yourself and controlling things around you, controlling risks. And, when you get on the plane, guess what?
PINSKY: Yes.
CAPT. BUNN: You do not have any control.
PINSKY: You have family. You have a job. Any of the three of my panelists ever have a fear of flying? Do you ever go through that, you
guys? Anybody? Raise your hands. Anybody? None of you guys --
(LAUGHING)
[21:35:02] SCHACHER: Now I do.
PINSKY: Yes, but not severe fear flight, not where you are paralyzed and panicking in the airplane? All right, the control room now does. I am
hearing that there are multiple people in the control room has severe fear of flying. But -- all right, thank you, Tom. I appreciate it. Again,
fearofflying.com.
Next up, the sole survivor passenjet crash. Somebody who has been through with this shares her story. She has not only been a survivor of a crash.
She has had family members on that same crash, she has had to grieve. So, she knows both sides of this story.
And, later, we will try to get to your questions. Our guests have been so great. We are going to get to them later in the show. Use a hash tag,
#germanwingsques. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: French officials believe that Lubitz purposely put that plane into a dive and that he deliberately killed every passenger
and crew member on board.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:04] HALEY HOLMES, EMILY SELKE`S CLOSE FRIEND WHO IS A PASSENGER IN GERMANWINGS FLIGHT 9525: They were not two Americans on a plane, not a
mother and daughter on the plane, but two -- Yvonne and Emily, two amazing, loving people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
The third American aboard Germanwings Flight 9525 has been identified. His name is Robert Calvo. And, he was living in Barcelona. This picture is
from his Facebook page.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Evy, Sam and Emily. And, all 150 people were killed when officials say that this 27-year-old co-pilot crashed a passenger jet
into the alps. Joining me, author of "Turbulence:A Survival Story."
In 1992, the plane that she and fiance were in crashed. She was the sole survivor. And, that everyone -- thank you for joining me, first of all.
And, everyone is wondering what this experience is like. They are hearing about screams that are being heard right before flight 9525 crashed.
And, a lot of people have been sending us questions on the internet. They want to know, do passengers -- when something like this is happening --
have a sense of what is about to happen?
ANNETTE HERTKENS, AUTHOR OF "TRUBULENCE: A SURVIVAL STORY": Well -- thank you for having me. I would say in any -- it goes really, really fast. So,
I would say it was worth to wake up in the crash, but it goes so fast, even in this case with the 8 minutes that they had time to realize. You just --
Your mind just trying to figure out what is going on. And, by the time you actually have crashed, you do not -- you do not realize that.
PINSKY: You say -- I want to hang a lantern on something you said that really made me shudder. It is worse to wake up than to go through the
crash. Is that because of the grieving realizing you lost people around you? Is that because of the recovery or both?
HERTKINS: Well, it is the moment of waking up for me was awful. We crashed into a mountain, also. It was a giant drop and we accelerated
motors. People screaming. Another giant drop. And, you just wonder -- some people just scream. But not even realize. Everyone was startled.
And then the next moment -- one moment you hear accelerating motors. And, the next it was in the dead silence or noisy silence of the jungle. With
my fiance was still trapped in his seat. I had the chair on top of me with a dead man as it turned out, which I moved and I must have gone into shock,
because it was terrifying.
And then I had to wait eight days to be rescued. Just that whole realization, like we have crashed and everyone around you is dead. It was
awful. The crash itself really, really went very, very fast. I want to tell that to the family members. You do not realize that even if you
realize, you do not really truly realize that. So, you are not in terrible agony at that moment.
PINSKY: Annette, hold on a second. Sam, do we have any of the questions coming in that are maybe relevant for Annette, do you think? Anything
about the grieving process?
SCHACHER: There is -- not that I have right in front of me. But, prior when you mentioned that we were going to talk about the families, Dr. Drew,
I remember seeing a tweet in regard to, what advice could you or perhaps Annette could give to some of the families here that are grieving? Because
you had to grieve your fiance.
PINSKY: Yes.
HERTKENS: Yes. The moment I was found, I turned into a grieving family member. What I really tried to ask people to stay open. I mean you have
to go through the process of mourning and everything that comes with that, anger and disbelief, et cetera.
But the mind try not to close your mind off and hence your heart. Really try to stay open because even if something like that, a beautiful moment in
the connections that you have with the other families and the connection to other people that are there.
So, just try to stay open. I mean that is really, really what I really would advise. Because by staying is open, you get something to replace
that was -- you would not have had otherwise. I really truly believe that.
PINSKY: I agree with Annette that it is other people that you got to connect with. It is staying open to other people and not closing down and
freezing or shutting down, that sort of thing. But getting open to other people and certainly somebody who knows your grief vividly, someone who is
in the same position is a place to find connection.
Thank you, Annette, very much for sharing the story with us. We are going to keep answering your questions after the break. #germanwingsqques.
Also, you can join us on Instagram for pictures from the show tonight and every night. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR (1) (translated to English): I am speechless. I cannot give you any explanation for that. The way I knew
Andreas, this is inconceivable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR (2) (translated to English): I think these are professional pilots and they undergo checks. They have to be
healthy. That doctor who looks at us pilots, he talks to us and we need to be mentally fit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Those are nominal evaluations, particularly over there. Back with Evy, Sam, Emily and joining the panel, Amber Smith, retired Army Pilot.
The story you are tweeting about most tonight questions about the co-pilot who deliberately crashed a plane.
Taking your questions from Facebook and Twitter. I got a Facebook post here. It is from Danny. It says, "Maybe there should be random mental
checks on flight crew." Amber, we heard from one of another pilot we were talking to tonight that really there is a lot of professional policing
within the pilot community. Now, I know in the military, you have a lot of supervision.
[21:50:06] AMBER SMITH, U.S. ARMY PILOT (RET.): Yes. I actually think it is a great idea to do -- once you get hired and you go through the initial
screening and background checks, including some mental health assessments, basically it sort of drops off the map once you continue on with your
career outside of your annual medical exam.
But, yes, just as you mentioned with the military with the security clearance, basically procedures that you have go through, it has a time
limit. And, then, you have to get reviewed and renewed in order for you to have that clearance again.
And, I think the airlines should probably develop something similar, because -- you know within a couple of years, things happen in your life
and things can change. And, you probably need to have another reassessment.
PINSKY: I guess if nothing, you can have brain disorders. It can develop. Evy, you agree with this?
POUMPOURAS: Yes, I do, but the problem also is, Dr. Drew, they do not do any psychcometric testing on pilot, period.
PINSKY: I know. I know.
POUMPOURAS: Even prior to getting the job. The military is a different animal. They are exceptional. They are going to assess their people in a
different way. But when it comes to aviation pilots, there is no psychcometric testing.
We have seen it in law enforcement and in many other jobs where they do that where you and I discussed it on the show with police officers and
making sure that they are mentally and psychologically OK.
And, they are given the MMPI-2 to take different tests that showed, is there any indication this person might have a dormant disorder or even some
criteria of some type of disorder.
PINSKY: Right.
POUMPOURAS: Aviation pilots do nothing.
PINSKY: And, it is interesting. The pilot who is also therapist mentioned a schizoid disorder. That would have shown up on a personality inventory
like the MMPI. Sam, you have anything for us?
SCHACHER: I do. I have a number of questions, Dr. Drew. Let us start with Alice. Alice wrote in, "Was one or more of the passengers a target and the
pilot wanted to take them out?" Perhaps, Evy, did that even cross your mind?
PINSKY: They are looking carefully at that.
SCHACHER: Really?
PINSKY: I heard the FBI was actually trying to make connections between him and anybody who might have been in the back of the plane. I can see
Evy on the screen. She is nodding her head, "Yes, of course." Yes?
POUMPOURAS: Yes. So, what they are going to do, typically, in this type of situation, they are going to assess everybody. First, you want to see
if anybody on that aircraft is on the terrorist watch list, pilot, co- pilot, anybody on that plane.
And, then you are going to try to do some type of assessment on each individual. Who are they do? Do some cursory interviews to get a sense,
do they have any ties affiliations with anybody else? And then obviously examining the co-pilot, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: Where they are doing a search warrant, getting journals.
PINSKY: Looking at his computer.
POUMPOURAS: Exactly. You want to see what is going on. What was he thinking? Who did he speak to last? Get his cell phone records. All those
different things.
PINSKY: All right. I got to take another quick break. Amber, stand by. We got a couple questions that have come in specifically. I think you can
answer about -- we have also a question about plane in trouble, could it be flown remotely and things like that, when we get back. We will be right
back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALDMAN: I think this individual had some very, very serious latent issues, depression --
PINSKY: Psychological stuff. Yes.
WALDMAN: He could have been -- I think in the early part of his career, he left the cockpit for a while. You do not know if he had a drinking
problem, a female problem, some emotional problems. And, you cannot tell many times walking into the cockpit or even somebody -- a co-worker perhaps
at work here at CNN, who is having an issue, a problem. .
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Evy, Sam, Emily and our Army Pilot, Amber. We are taking your questions from Facebook and Twitter. Ryan from Facebook says,
"Could the airline industry an override system that could remotely fly the plane in case of emergencies?" That is a night fantasy, but let me ask you
Amber. Is that even something within the realm of possibilities?
SMITH: Well, look, I think that somewhere aerospace engineers in the research and development department of aviation are working on something
like that. I mean you have to remember, we have drones. We have UABs right now that are piloted remotely.
I do not think that the industry or technology is ready to put passengers to a computer -- a completely computerized system just yet. But, is it a
possibility in the future? Absolutely. But, we have to wait --
PINSKY: That is interesting. It seemed --
SMITH: But it also means like, do we need pilots then when that happens?
PINSKY: Well, I do not -- we will have driverless cars someday soon. It is interesting. It is interesting, you think it is possible override
system. Sam, you got a question.
SCHACHER: I do from Elaine, Dr. Drew. And, this is almost to Waldo`s point in the previous package. Elaine writes, "It seems unusual that the
co-pilot had an 11-month break in his training. What does that tell you?"
PINSKY: Yes. Well, that is the only piece of data we have about this guy -- and there is somebody says depression somewhere in there which is sort
of vague. There was something going on that put him out of commission for 11 months.
SCHACHER: Yes. That is right. One of his co-workers that was training with him, his mother told a German newspaper that the reason -- and this is
all alleged. But she claims the reason why he took that 11-month break is because he had a breakdown and was suffering from depression.
PINSKY: A breakdown. You never know what people mean. Amber, does it mean anything to you?
SMITH: Well, in flight training, a break like that -- while it might seem a little weird, and definitely it is not unheard of. Pilots often have to
take breaks for medical purposes, whether that be physical or mental, as we are starting to think it might be in this case.
But, in the U.S., you have to be able to pass that class I medical certification and say you had some extreme medical condition that you were
trying to resolve or work through and you -- it might take a few years for you to get it. So, it could happen.
PINSKY: Well, the one thing you said that I will cling to is the idea that the military has a good system that perhaps they can learn from in
commercial aviation.
Thank you, panel. Good job. This is a tragic day and a terrible story. But, I think I learned a little bit. We struggle with it, learned a lot.
DVR us then you can watch us any time. "Forensic Files" begins immediately following this program and it starts now.
END
