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Germanwings' Co-Pilot Believed To Have Hidden A Psychiatric Condition; Saudi Arabia Continues Air Strikes In Yemen. Aired 8-830p ET

Aired March 28, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At least $10 million a year for off-duty officers and security.

DIANA WILLIAMS, METROLINK SPOKESWOMAN: What we're doing in response is talking to St. Louis City, our partner in the city, about how they can increase their patrols and increase their protection of our system.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it was disgusting that no one. That people were sort of laughing and smiling about it. No one offered to help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Three suspects on the run. As far as the victim is concerned, he suffered only superficial injuries. He didn't have to be hospitalized, but he says he's not going to run. He is not going to take the train now for fear of his own safety.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Very close call.

All right, thank you so much, Nick Valencia, appreciate that.

All right, that's going to do it for us here in the NEWSROOM. Thanks for being with us this afternoon, Nick and me, Fredricka Whitfield. More NEWSROOM straight ahead with Poppy Harlow.

[15:00:59] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: 3:00 eastern here in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you from New York.

First up, a new and shocking development to the downing flight 9525, was the co-pilot who investigators believe deliberately took down that plane, hiding a psychiatric condition? And ex-girlfriend of 27-year- old Andreas Lubitz telling the German tabloid magazine "Build," that he was a troubled man who often had bad dreams that his plane was going down. CNN cannot independently confirm that report.

This comes after police found ripped up documents in the home of the 27-year-old co-pilot stating that he was quote "unfit to work' on a number of days including on Tuesday, the very day that Lubitz apparently decided to steer that air bus A320 into the southern French alps. Just what was ailing Lubitz thinking that's not yet been revealed?

But in addition to media reports citing anonymous sources that he was suffering from a mental illness, and new report in "The New York Times' says he has been treated for vision problems that may have threaten his career.

Let's go straight to the mountainside area where they are staging all the search and recovery efforts near the crash site. Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson joins me from there.

And Nic, I can't imagine how difficult it is to be there as people are just waiting for any remains they could get to be returned. But when it comes to the search, I know they are trying to construct some sort of access road to make it a bit easier for them to get to the crash site because it's been so tough. What are you seeing?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they really feel that they need to put in this access road because, you know, if the weather changes here for the worst, that could means the helicopters are not able to fly, that means the whole mission would grinds to a halt. So the locals mass is that building a road, that could take as long as eight days from the closest sort of main highway here to the crash site would be a distance of about four or so -- three or four miles, that sort of distance, maybe a little less. Some of the road is already there, rough track, but they have to extended over the top of the hill, then down into a - down a very steep valley, obviously, as rocky terrain. So it's going to take some time to do that.

Today, we know there have been 40 recovery workers on the ground, some 400 people employed sort of more widely on the mission here, two helicopters in the air. And we spoke to one of the helicopter pilots, and he told us just how hard it is, the conditions, the wind in particular.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very difficult conditions. We are in a closed area, very, very closed from the mountains. It's a very short place, and so it's quite difficult for us.

ROBERTSON: Dangerous?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can't say dangerous because we have to stay focused on what we do, but it's a lot of mental conditioning and a lot of concentration. I don't want to focus on the possible victims I see on the floor. So I'm proud because I know I will bring back bodies to the family. And I think it's very important. That's my duty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And, of course, getting the bodies back is so important for the families. And then from the mountainside, they go to a medical center where forensic tests are done, DNA testing by a metric, testing fingerprints, that sort of things. There are, we are told, 24 technicians working on that. Also here in the area, 13 Spanish and German, and Interpol investigators as well, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, truly global effort because people on the plane, these victims, were so many different nationalities.

Nic, let me ask you this. When it comes to the pilot, we have learned his name today, also one of these victims. What else do we know about him?

[15:05:00] ROBERTSON: Well, he was the man aboard the aircraft that had all the experience, Patrick (INAUDIBLE). He was the man who was, you know, the one who would have kept the aircraft out of trouble, had it got into difficulty in the air, and had he been inside the cockpit.

What we know is that he had ten years experience flying this aircraft, more than 6,000 hours flying. So, you know, the loss of him in the cabin, clearly, clearly, a dramatic effect when he couldn't get back in and locked out by the co-pilot, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, and heard on the audio recording from the cockpit, banging, banging, banging, trying to get in as the plane descended.

Nic Robertson, thank you very much.

And we are going to continue to talk about this as investigators work to piece together as the life of Andreas Lubitz, 27-year-old, there is intense focus on his state of mind the day he crashed that Germanwings flight into the French Alps.

Joining me to discuss, Dr. Jacqueline Brunetti, she is the senior FAA aviation medical examiner, also former FAA safety inspector and CNN safety analyst David Soucie is with me.

Thank you both for being here.

Doctor, let me begin with you, you are a medical examiner. It is up to you and your peers to determine the physical well being of pilots to man these aircrafts. When you heard that Lubitz had apparently torn up doctor's notes, saying he was unfit to fly, including on that day that he flew the plane into the Alps, what do you think?

DR. JACQUELINE BRUNETTI, SENIOR FAA AVIATION MEDICAL EXAMINER: That's more than disturbing to know that someone would try and conceal that type of information. And to me, what's interesting about that is who were the physicians who were giving him those notes? You know, it's unclear in the story that's unfolding right now. So I think that's a big question.

HARLOW: Right. And what did the notes say?

BRUNETTI: Exactly.

HARLOW: We don't know if they said anything about a mental illness.

But David Soucie, to you, you know, a lot of people have been talking about whether or not there's too much a stigma around a potential mental illness. These are the number of reports right now that he suffered a severe depress episode back in 2009. That he was battling depression, we cannot independently confirm that, but is there a stigma from pilots that are trying to battle it. That they are -- don't want to come forward with it?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, I think that this -- the pilots I know who experienced this had their depression, gone through divorces, had difficulty financially, and things like that, that have suffered depressive episodes, got out of it, fine. And I don't know there's any kind of social stigma within the pilot community. I think they banned together. This is a band of brothers that know they have the same responsibility. And they do that.

HARLOW: They go back in the cockpit when well enough?

SOUCIE: They are. In fact, they are pretty -- it's kept quiet. They don't know what's going on. But usually when a pilot takes time off, at least a couple other friends of his would know what's going on, and it's not really well communicated. I don't see that as a significant problem within that community. Now within passengers, it might be could be a different story if thigh knew.

HARLOW: Doctor, I wonder, though, this whole system relies on self- reporting. Is that a mistake?

BRUNETTI: Well, let me say first, I'm not speaking for the FAA. I'm speaking as an aviation medical examiner and private physician. It's -- you know, you rely on a patient, and as a physician for years, you rely on the patient to come to you and tell you their symptoms. There is onus on the medical examiner to ask the right questions and to observe the person and to see if -- that you can pick out certain signs that would perhaps give you a clue into something going on that's not on the surface and maybe would trigger some further testing.

HARLOW: Here's the question that my team and I keep going over and over is, as a doctor in your position, you were required to look at their physical condition, but not to do a psychiatric evaluation. Why is that?

BRUNETTI: Well, there is -- there is somewhat of a psychiatric --

HARLOW: Somewhat, though, but not a set.

BRUNETTI: But not a formal psychiatric or psycho-logic testing. And that's not part of it. I think that it was probably part in the industry of the hiring process. But, you know, once they get to me, they've been hire. And you maybe --

HARLOW: Yes, but, I wonder if you think that's a mistake?

SOUCIE: Well, I don't think it's a mistake because of the perspective it was. I think it does needs to be looked at and improved. There is no doubt about that. But you have to understand the perspective of that state of approval and that is that they are looking at symptoms. So the question there, the things that they asked during the medical exam are psychiatric. But they are symptomatic. There are things like what have you gone through? Do you think you have this? Do you think you have that? So it's not sufficient. I don't believe at all.

[15:10:00] BRUNETTI: I ask about stress, I ask about sleep, I ask about what kind of schedule do they have, and some of it is pretty erroneous.

HARLOW: Here is the thing. If there were a mechanical problem found on a plane, right, even if they were very rare that a plane crashed because of that, one in, you know, many millions, right, like this instance is, that would get change. The laws would change. And that would have to be fixed. So I got to push back a little and ask, should these procedures change?

BRUNETTI: My problem with this is what test do you do? How specific is the test? How accurate is the test? And once you start applying testing to a large population, most of whom will be absolutely normal, there's the potential of picking up false positives or missing real disease. And then I think that in any of those questionnaires, you know, you -- you may be great one day, the day you take the test, and two weeks later, something is a trigger.

SOUCIE: As opposed to the mechanical issue you brought up, we know what's in the black box, the flight data recorders that were there, the cockpit and voice recorders are there, that the red box, this is what we call the red box in the investigation is it changes, and you -- they are so variable, and every person is unique. So I think there's a big challenge in trying to figure this out and come out with a litmus test that says you're ready to play and you're not.

HARLOW: And you are not.

David Soucie, thank you very much. Dr. Brunetti, thank you very much. Appreciate the perspective.

And we're going to continue to talk about this tragic crash throughout the hour. I also, though, want to get to another top story here that we're following very closely.

Iranian nuclear talks hitting a roadblock as time ticks down to a deal deadline at the end of the month, that's ahead.

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[15:14:55] HARLOW: As nuclear talks reach a critical point over the deadline, sources tell CNN today's talks did hit a snag when Iran refused to budge on several key sticking points. But a short time later, talks appear to be back on track when Iran foreign minister said that he has an excellent meeting with his French and German counterparts.

Let's go to our global affairs analyst Elise Labott. She joins us live in Switzerland where these talks have been taking place.

Earlier this morning, somewhat was crossing, I was reading like it looked pretty dire, and now really things like seemed like thing have turned a corner. Is that right? ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, we're

reaching the end game here in (INAUDIBLE) to these nuclear talks ahead of Tuesday's deadline. So everyone is really posturing. There is a lot of rhetoric floating around. But I do understand Iran is really playing hardball on a few key speaking points.

First of all, there's a research advanced nuclear technology. We've been talking a lot about enrichment and how much Iran would be able to enrich. Now they want to start developing technology that could make them do that much faster while even the deal's in effect. So international community really try to put some limits on that.

Secondly, on the sanctions, Iran wants to get those sanctions lifted on day one of the deal, but the international community, particularly the United States who has a lot of congressional restrictions, say that they want to phase those sanctions out as Iran makes clear that it's making its end of the bargain.

HARLOW: And Elise, let me ask you this as well. When you look at what the senior U.S. official did say this morning saying, you know, the Iranians are being very tough on the most difficult issues. We really don't know if we will get there. If we will get there by Tuesday is a question, but this is not a legal deadline, right?

LABOTT: OK, it's not a legal deadline. The real legal deadline is June 30th when a full comprehensive deal with all those technical annexes needs to be negotiated. But when the parties extended the last agreement, you know, this joint plan of action, this interim agreement, they put March 31st as a deadline for what's called political frame work, which is basically an outline of what the deal would look like. And that that deadline is seen as critical milestone, not just for the Iranians who want to show the hardliners back home that there's a reason that they are negotiating and there's a path way to lift those sanctions, but also for the Obama administration, they want to show Congress that Iran is making commitments. They want to prevent Congress who was threatening to impose its sanctions in April from doing so.

So if go on Tuesday and they need a day or two to tie up some loose ends, I don't think there's a problem. But if there's no deal in this round of talks, I think that's going to give the kind of hardliners, if you will, on both sides, a reason to say this deal's not going to happen. And those positions kind of harden further, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, and we've seen Republicans in Congress, that wanted those additional sanctions pass against Iran, sort of backing off for a few weeks while they wait for this to hopefully knock itself out. They could also come back to the table with this if it's not successful.

Elise, thank you very much live for in (INAUDIBLE). I appreciate it.

Coming up next, Yemen, spiraling into absolute chaos while it's supposed president pleas for help and the people of Yemen worry about what's could be next. Also ahead, after the Germanwings crash, some are asking this

question, could planes ever be blown by people on the ground? The technology's there. Will it ever happen? We'll discuss next.

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[15:22:15] HARLOW: The president of Yemen is in Egypt today pleading with his Arab league colleagues to help him regain control of his own country. This, as Arab leaders meet to discuss the crisis, and the majority of United Nations humanitarian workers who were left in Yemen were just evacuated today.

Meantime, Saudi Arabia continued these air strikes in Yemen bombarding the rebel fighters that forced the president to flee.

Joining me on the phone, a journalist on the ground there Hakeem Almazmari (ph) joins me now from Sana'a, the capital of Yemen. Thank you for being with me.

What can you tell me about that you are seeing on the ground in terms of the security situation? Who's really in control?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (via phone): to be honest, no one is in control right now. Yemen is very chaotic. You have clashes going on between different fashions in at least 12 provinces. That's half of the country. And in the south, you have (INAUDIBLE) clashing between the pro-Habib (ph) and anti-Habib (ph) troops or militants.

In the north, you have the same thing. In (INAUDIBLE), out of control of the politic politics, but they are in control of the government. It's safer than it is in other areas because it's under one control. But outside Sana'a, it's very difficult to say one faction is controlling it. But the problem with Sana'a is that air raids continue by invasion. Last night was by far the heaviest air strikes in Yemen where attacks could be heard every two to three seconds, and these attacks were powerful, and shoot the houses, and broke windows and doors on houses.

HARLOW: How is it for the average people in Sana'a, the capital of Yemen, right now? Are people out on the street? Are they trying to go about their daily business or are people really just staying inside, no one venturing out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neither. Right now, tens of thousands, if not over a hundred thousand, have evacuated Sana's, the capital fearing that these air strikes could accidentally or gradually increase. Many families, including myself, have evacuated our children and wives to ensure they are in a safe area while the attacks happen in Sana'a.

Problem is, they are millions in Yemen who are under the poverty line and cannot relocate, cannot evacuate, and are already living under the poverty line. So how will they be able to continue going forward during this economic political crisis. And they are worried that this Yemen escalation could continue, gradually continue, like it did in Syria where it started gradually, having a target, but then ended up destroyed Syria completely. [15:25:08] HARLOW: Yes, very understandable. And, of course, at the

same time, those humanitarian aid workers from the U.N. being evacuate today as well and the help they were providing will not be there either.

Thank you very much. Please stay safe, you and your family. Thank you for joining us, (INAUDIBLE). Appreciate it.

Well, the latest developments in the Middle East are changing U.S. policymakers and challenging them like never before. The Sunni-Arab coalition led by Saudi Arabia is doing more than attack rebels in Yemen. It is seen by many as an attempt to deflect Shiite Iran expanding regional influence.

Let's get some insight from Bob Baer, former CIA operative, now a CNN security and intelligence analyst and Chris Dickey joins me now from Paris. He is a foreign editor for "the Daily Beast."

Bob, first this. The Arab league is discussing Yemen today, right? They are all meeting in Egypt? The president of Yemen is there. Is there any way, anything they could do effectively to try to contain what's broken out in Yemen?

BOB BAER, CNN SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I don't think so. You can't do this from the air. Would the Saudis actually send ground troops across the border to take back Sana'a for Hadi, for President Hadi. Your guess good as mine, but they may consider that if it's bad enough.

You have to look at the world from the Saudi perspective. They are losing on all fronts, whether it's Syria, where Iranians have moved in, the Islamic coalition guard core, Lebanon or Hezbollah, you know, basically controls the government, and you got Iraq. This attack on Tikrit. So the Saudis are feeling very, you know, under attack. And they are going into Yemen. Shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, but whether they can solve it or not, very the rough terrain, I don't think so. They are just kind to hold back the chaos at this point.

HARLOW: And Chris, you wrote about in your column this week. Let me read part of that to our viewers. You wrote quote "a cataclysmic (ph) war is taking shape in Yemen, one that pits nearly all of Washington's key allies in the Middle East against Iran and its proxies in a fight that could quickly spin out of control. How real is the threat of regional civil war here, civil wars?

CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, FOREIGN EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST: I think it's very real. I think Bob would agree with that. It may be difficult for the Saudis to roll in on the ground, but they have Egyptians on board with them now. Egypt has a huge army, three or four times as big as the Saudi army, and all of these countries that are involved in this, all ten countries plus Turkey, see Iran, see chaos as a threat, and they also see that the United States is not going to come in and solve the problem for them. That's why they have been acting on their own in this case whether they can get the kind of coordination and effectiveness that is needed to try to bring stability to the reason, that's another question. But the Saudis have taken the initiative and everybody, all the Sunni countries in the region are falling in line behind them in an effort to say they are going to stand against Iran. And also, almost as an afterthought, they will stand against the extremists of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic state.

HARLOW: Bob, this week, the Saudi ambassador to the U.S. was on CNN with our Wolf Blitzer. And wolf asked him about the situation, and he made news when he would not rule out the possibility of Saudi Arabia creating their own nuclear bomb to counter a potentially nuclear Iran. How big is that threat?

BAER: I think it's huge. I think the Saudis have in place the pieces to make one. This breakout as they call it, they do it very quickly. I think they are, as Chris was saying, I think we are approaching the regional war. He is absolutely right. We are heading that way as of today. And the Saudis have a very weak army. And the only way they're going to compensate for it is going nuclear.

Now, whether they do this in secret, there is probably, we can't stop them. They don't like this Iranian deal that is being conducted in Luson (ph). They think we're, you know, in effect backing the Iranians, and they don't trust the Americans anymore. The royal family's legitimacy is under attack. And they may go for a bomb. I don't think we shouldn't rule that out.

HARLOW: Chris, what about the complexity here? If you look at this, the U.S. opposed to Iranian influence in Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, but the U.S. and Iran share the same goal as do many around the world of defeating ISIS.

All of this happening as the U.S. is literally days away from a March 31st deadline to get a deal, a nuclear deal with Tehran. What is the U.S. willing to sacrifice to get that deal done?

DICKEY: Well, I don't think that the United States is willing to sacrifice a lot. The question is can they get a deal done at all under the present circumstances. And when we are really looking at two Irans, one Iran is (INAUDIBLE), president Rouhani, foreign minister Serif (ph), Iran, we're playing hardball in the negotiations, but we want a deal.

The other Iran is the Iran of (INAUDIBLE), the head of their expeditionary force, the Kuds force which is basically in charge of Hezbollah, of the Iranian militias in Iraq, of the (INAUDIBLE) in Yemen, and that is an expansionary aggressive force. How do you reconcile the two? And what would happen if that aggressive force had nuclear weapons as well? That's what the region is looking at. It's very hard to cut a deal under those circumstances.

[15:30:29] HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. Great insight, guys. Thank you very much, Bob Baer and Chris Dickey in joining me with that.

And coming up next, we are going to talk about, continue to talk about the tragedy of the Germanwings flight. It's also led to new questions about technology in cockpits.

And are we possibly too focused on the wrong threat to airliners? We'll discuss that next.

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[15:32:02] HARLOW: The deliberate crash of flight 9525 is sparking renewed interest in an idea that could prevent similar disasters, planes that are piloted from the ground. The technology is there. A lot of people think it is crazy, but our Tom Foreman takes a look at the technology and why it's not being used.

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TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Some of the biggest tech names in the world like Google and Boeing are looking into this idea of planes that can be flown from the ground because there is a belief that such planes might be impervious to terrorist attacks and criminal acts, and to precisely what happened in the French Alps.

Watch closely. This plane over England has a crew at the controls, passengers in the back, but something extraordinary is about to happen, a pilot on the ground is taking over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ready to take control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proceed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have control.

FOREMAN: This is the $94 million Astria project by the British aerospace company BAE, one of several efforts around the world to develop planes that can be flown remotely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what you can hear at the moment is the discussion with the traffic that's exactly the same conversation that the pilots would be having if in charge of the steering of the aircraft.

FOREMAN: Military success with drones has driven much of the interest, and some efforts are focused on airplanes in hazardous conditions such as hurricane research and fighting wildfires. Analysts say pilotless planes could be a $400 billion a year global business, so why not passenger flights?

First, the airline industry has a remarkable safety record despite high profile disasters. Many believe on board pilots remain the most reliable way to handle problems and retrofitting planes would cost billions of dollars.

And second, passengers may not be ready. Robert Goyer is with "Flying" magazine.

[15:35:03] ROBERT GOYER, FLYING MAGAZINE: I start by asking myself that question, how do you feel getting in the airliner with no airline pilots up front? And I wouldn't do it. FOREMAN: There are many unanswered questions about reliability and

what happens if this plane were to break free from its electronic tether, and what if terrorists take over a ground station and in that form take control of an airplane? One possible solution is to have multiple stations involved at any given time so it can't happen with one station being controlled. But even then, what if somebody manage to hack into the data stream and take over the plane from somewhere else.

All of these questions have to be answered. Yes, airplanes are much more automated now than they once were. You probably take off and lands at times with a robot essentially at the throttle, but for this idea, planes to be controlled from the ground to really become effective, it's going to take a lot more testing, a lot more application, and that really could be quite a number of years in the future.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: All right, Tom Foreman for us there. And we are going to talk about this with someone who just wrote a column in part about it, "Daily Beast" contributor, Clive Irving joins me now from London.

You wrote about those who talk about this, the possibility of pilot- free plane. I want to read our viewers part of you wrote. You wrote in part, our grandchildren may come to that place. Our grandchildren may live to be 150 years old and have brain replacements, but I'm damn sure that right now nobody of sober disposition will argue for the cockpit containing no humans at all. Tell me more.

CLIVE IRVING, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Yes. Well, we have mass transit systems all over the world which are running trains without drivers, and no one thinks about that. So I think it's very much a question of accepting that in the air, you're in a completely different environment. As soon as the door closes on you in the plane, you know that you're leaving the ground. And I think that un- tethers people sense of security sufficiently to make want to have some human hand involved.

HARLOW: And also in this article, you agree with the chief executive of Lufthansa saying that no security system in the world could have prevented this. Could have prevent as something like this? Nothing at all.

IRVING: Yes. Well, I think - and something is not being said so far is that this wasn't the single flight with this guy on that day. The plane left to (INAUDIBLE) that morning, flew to Barcelona and then flew from Barcelona into the Alps, which meant that he checked in for his flight briefing at around 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., flew with the captain. I'd like to know how often he flew with the captain because that concerns whether the captain was aware of anything wrong.

Secondly, was anything observable? Was anything observable in his behavior that morning? We're not talking about just the time spent in the plane, we are talking about the time spent on the previous flight. And the other question I want to know is we are gradually learning

more and more about the guy's medical record. It's seeping out. But I wonder if medication was somehow involved because some medication taken for depression can trigger extraordinary behavior and that's not being explained. So I hope this will come out soon.

HARLOW: Yes. We certainly don't know that. There's a lot that we don't know. We don't even know what was written on those doctor's notes saying that he was unfit to work on that day.

IRVING: Right.

HARLOW: Let me ask you this. When you look at the technology and setting altitudes, why should a plane be able to set an altitude or a pilot set an altitude of 100 feet in the Alps, in a mountain range? Why should that even be possible?

IRVING: Well, that's a very good question, but the computer does not recognize there's anything other than the ground level. The altitude is the plane in the computers is fixed at ground level, whatever that ground level is. And in this case, he set the autopilot to a setting of, I think, it was 100 feet when he was at 30,000 feet, then he set it on accelerated dissent mode in the computer which he adjusted, I think, twice.

He knew that he couldn't put the nose down and go into a dive, which other suicidal pilots have done, because there is a thing called (INAUDIBLE) protection system. And I think the computers in the airbus which stops the pilot from taking extreme maneuvers. But ironically, within the envelope, he was able to do this because it was not an abnormal. It wasn't abnormal thing to do according to the computer's brain.

HARLOW: Should that be a technology that is addressed, that is changed so that you cannot set an altitude to 100 feet in the mountain range?

IRVING: I'm sure that could be written into software, but obviously, there is a good question. The other thing that bothers me about this whole thing, Poppy, is that this is -- in statistical terms, suicide mass murder by pilots isn't very, very, very remote thing. It's -- it going to happen, I hope, very infrequently. And I think at the moment what we're seeing a sort of the hindsight industry in full cry, concentrating so much on this catastrophe. And it is serious catastrophe. But we are taking our eye off the ball, and the media eyes should be firmly on the ball in the aviation security in the broader sense and not - we should all go chasing off looking for the sweet one.

You had a good report last week, for example, concerning the United States, and the lack of scrutiny and screening of people who work in the airports and what school the air cited (ph) that near the place. We must address these soft spots because at this moment, I'm quite sure ISIS is hoping that some lone wolf is now wanting to go after airplanes. That said, airplanes are still a target. And I'm worried everyone is taking their eyes off the bat, and this is the major threat at the moment.

[15:40:47] HARLOW: Important point. Thank you for joining me to discussion. We appreciate it.

IRVING: You're welcome.

HARLOW: Coming up next, we are going to talk about how can you possibly put a price on life? You can't. But now, this airline will be compensating these victims' families. How much will they receive? The answer might surprise you. That's ahead.

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[15:00:00] HARLOW: How do you put a price on life? You can't. But it's the grim question facing Germanwings' parent company, Lufthansa, as they try to determine compensation for the families of those killed on flight 9525.

Our Cristina Alesci explains why those payouts could increase dramatically over the coming months.

[15:45:10] CHRISTINA ALESCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, in these kinds of situations, airlines are usually ensured for a billion dollars. Now, a lot of costs go into that number. One of the biggest components is victims' compensation.

Here, experts are saying about $350 million will be the total. Now, when you look at that number and what it means for the individual families, there is an international treaty called the Montreal (ph) convention that says, in these cases, victims are at least entitled to about $160,000 each. But if the victims' families decide to sue and the airline is even one percent liable in any kind of way, obviously, those totals individually could be much higher. And a lot of that depends on where the family brings the suit and how much the victim was earning at the time of death and how many dependents the victim had.

Now, on geography, the U.S. tends to be the most generous. Payouts could be up to $4 million for each family. Europe, less so. It's -- there are countries that really discourage litigation in Europe, so geography is important. Also, if you're a higher earner, you are going to get paid out more. And if you have more dependents, obviously, the payouts could be higher. If you are talking about a single person without a job, much lower payout - Poppy.

HARLOW: All right, Christina, thank you very much.

Let's talk about this more now with aviation attorney, Jim Kreindler.

Thank you very much for being with me, Jim. I appreciate it.

JIM KREINDLER, AVIATION ATTORNEY: My pleasure.

HARLOW: Listening to what Cristina says, she brought up the Montreal convention. And you and I were just talked in the break about the fact that those victims' families in the U.S. are the only ones who you think are really going to get a substantial amount of compensation.

KREINDLER: Yes, here the airline is completely responsible and liable. There's no defense. It must pay. The problem is except for a few families where the passenger lived in the United States or bought the ticket in the United States or was returning to the United States, they have to sue in Spain or Germany where compensation is obscenely low. Most of the families are going to get less money than it costs to go and buy a mid priced car.

HARLOW: What?

KREINDLER: Yes. Unfortunately, the United States is the only country where when there's an air disaster, families can receive meaningful compensation.

HARLOW: But don't you think that Lufthansa, this is a huge global airline. Do you think they will willingly pay the families more than that, at least what they deem to be more fair and equitable?

KREINDLER: They may. But unfortunately, the argument is going to be under German law, your case is worth $50,000, we're going to be exceedingly generous and pay you $100,000 for that on the same type of case that could result in a multimillion dollar recovery here.

HARLOW: What about the ability for these families in Europe, across Europe, to bring wrongful death lawsuits?

KREINDLER: These are wrongful death lawsuits, but they are limited to the type of recovery they get in those countries, so they can sue, and the airline has no defense. The airline's on the hook and has to pay full damages. The problem is in Spain or Germany, full damages is almost meaningless, certainly, to have our way of thinking.

HARLOW: And very quickly before I let you go, is -- when you look at this, I just wonder if you think that if any tiny bit is discovered that Lufthansa knew that there was an ailment here, does that change the game?

KREINDLER: Unfortunately, it doesn't. No matter how awful this case is, Lufthansa, the ensure insurers must pay 100 percent of the loss. The problem is the loss is defines in such a low level in those countries.

HARLOW: Jim, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Good to have you on the program.

KREINDLER: My pleasure.

And those victims that we were just talking about, they came from at least 18 countries. Loved ones are mourning in each and every one of those nations, and we remember their lives, next.

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[15:53:00] HARLOW: Recovery crews stay there making progress in their work to locate the remains of the 144 passengers and six crew members who died in Tuesday's Germanwings plane crash. They were sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, and they came from at least 18 countries. Here's Anderson Cooper.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A moment of silence for opera singers Maria Radner and Oleg Grijak outside the opera house in Barcelona where the two had performed in the Spanish production of (INAUDIBLE) Siegfried, a classic German opera. Both singers were returning home to Dusseldorf.

34-year-old Maria was born there and on the plane with her husband and 18-month-old baby. Oleg, 54-years-old, was part of a German opera company based in the city. Oleg and Maria, both internationally known singers, the opera world mourning the loss of the performers both professionally and personally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I broke the news to the ensemble. And as we had a piano dress rehearsal of "Aida," and I summoned everyone to the stage and told them the tragic news. And they were stunned. People started crying. So that we just couldn't go on with the rehearsal.

COOPER: Three Americans were also on board the flight, two of them mother and daughter. Emily Selke, a recent college graduate, was traveling with her Yvonne, a U.S. government contractor. Emily was a music industry major in college who graduated with honors. She recently worked for a company that provides office spaces.

Emily's distraught father told "the Guardian" the two loved traveling together and loved being in each other's company. In a statement, the family said they were deeply saddened, calling Emily and Yvonne two wonderful, caring, amazing people who meant so much to so many.

Another pair of family members traveling together, Carol Friday and her son Greg from Australia. They were on holiday together in Europe. 29-year-old Greg wanted to find a job teaching English in France. Carol just celebrated her 68th birthday on Monday, the day before the crash. The family of Carol and Greg said they were in deep disbelief and crippled with sadness.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They will forever be with us in our hearts, memories and dreams.

COOPER: Marina Vandras Lopez Bellio was in her native Spain for a funeral and was on her way home to the U.K. She was traveling with her 7-month-old baby, Julian. Marina bought their airline tickets last minute. She just wanted to get home as soon as possible.

Paul and Drew Bramley just finished his first year studying hospitality and management in Switzerland. He spent a few days in Barcelona with friends and was on his way home to the U.K. with a stopover in Dusseldorf. Paul was about to start an internship in his home country next week. His parents said he was a kind, caring and loving son. He was the best son, his mother said. He was my world.

Also on board the plane, 16 students and two teachers from the same high school in Germany returning home after a week in Spain for a Spanish language exchange program. The headmaster of the school said he first hoped the students missed their flight, but then received the news that all of them were on board. The community left stunned.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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[15:59:25] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been riding since age four. I will never forget my father when he let go of my seat and I was there on my own. And that was 70 years ago. A lot of kids have never really left the city. To them, everything is concrete.

Is everybody excited?

I decided to take kids who had never had my kind of experience on these mountain bike rides.

OK, you guys, let's hit the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn't trying in school. I was getting straight Fs. I got expelled. When we go on these bike rides it clears my mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking good.

I've been doing this for almost 30 years. You bring them where there are no buildings.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been doing this for almost 30 years. You bring them where there are no buildings. It is like wow, I didn't know that this exists.

And then we have our earn a bike program, where kids in the community come after school.

What's wrong with it?

UNIDENTIFED MALE: The chain.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So the chain's loose?

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They learn how to work on bikes and they earn points toward bikes of their own.

That looks great!

They learn good job skills.

This bike's getting quite an overhaul.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Now I have As and Bs. They're like my guide to a better life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is opportunity to see that yes, I have been able to accomplish what I thought I couldn't. It is not just biking. We are imparting life lessons.

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