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At This Hour
Security Breach Just Outside Fort Meade; Final Moments of Germanwings Flight; Families Grieving at Crash Site; Mental Illness in Aviation; Is Indiana Religious Freedom Bill License to Discriminate? Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired March 30, 2015 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[11:00:29] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: For god's sake, open the door. The dramatic final moments of the Germanwings Flight 9525 revealed for the first time as new questions emerge now about the secret medical history of the man authorities say killed 149 people, believed that he had been suicidal.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Political firestorm in Indiana. Can the governor there withstand the heat as everyone from Apple to the NCAA to Angie's List says a new religious freedom law opens the door to discrimination?
BOLDUAN: Deadline drama. With just two days left to reach a framework deal on Iran's nuclear program, Tehran backs away on a key issue. Has the opportunity for agreement just unraveled?
BERMAN: Hello, everyone, I'm John Berman.
BOLDUAN: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. We are following breaking news AT THIS HOUR. A security breach just outside the headquarters of the NSA at Fort Meade, Maryland.
BERMAN: One man was shot and killed by police, another seriously injured. I want to bring in CNN's justice reporter Evan Perez. Evan, what's the latest? What do we know right now?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: John, the FBI is now at the scene and is now investigating this incident which occurred at Fort Meade, which is where the headquarters of the NSA is located.
Now there's a lot we don't know yet. It's not clear what these two people were thinking, whether they were intentionally trying to get on to the grounds or whether this was something of a mistake. We do know that, according to the NSA officers on the scene, they believe they were trying to ram through the gate and therefore an NSA officer opened fire, killing one of these people and wounding the second.
Now, that is what we know at this time. The FBI, like I said, is at the scene trying to investigate. They're looking at camera footage, trying to review where this vehicle came from, whether it possibly could have been a mistake or whether this was intentional. Obviously, it's something that will have to be investigated fully before we find out more information.
BOLDUAN: Now, Evan, real quick, I mean, at this point, from the images we can see, it seems that everyone is calm at the sane. Is this over? Is there any ongoing threat that you're hearing from your source?
PEREZ: Right. We don't believe there's any more ongoing threat. As you can see from the video, you can see what looks like the vehicle of -- that tried to enter. And you can also see a police vehicle that is damaged. Now, it's not clear how that damage occurred, whether the vehicle -- as the suspect vehicle was entering the grounds, whether the police tried to ram it, or whether this vehicle initiated the incident there. So that is also something that is being investigated.
We do believe that they don't believe there's any further threat, but they're taking it seriously and they're trying to figure out what exactly was going on to cause these two people to get where they are.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. All right, we're going to be following this breaking news out of Fort Meade, Maryland, right outside of Washington. And this is a huge military and civilian installation.
BERMAN: Yes, 11,000 --
BOLDUAN: John and I were just reminding ourselves of the numbers.
BERMAN: 11,000 military personnel. 29,000 civilians. As you're looking at this picture of what happened out there, the crashed vehicles, remember, this is at a checkpoint outside the facility. Well outside.
Tom Fuentes, the former assistant FBI director, was pointing out moments ago that it's very difficult, almost impossible to get anywhere near the actual buildings inside. This was stopped on the perimeter.
BOLDUAN: And there are a lot of warnings coming off of any public roads that you're entering this space. So it's not something -- a mistake -- anyone can make a mistake, and we're not going to jump to any conclusions, but there are a lot of warnings that you're heading into this installation, into this facility. You can see one of the checkpoints right there.
We're going to continue to follow this very, very closely. As you saw Evan reporting, two men, from his sources, two men tried to ram the main gate to enter the NSA headquarters at Fort Meade. Their intentions so far unclear.
BERMAN: New revelations dealing with the Germanwings flight that co- pilot Andreas Lubitz was suicidal and in psychotherapy in the years before he got his license to fly.
BOLDUAN: Information on the 27-year-old coming just a short time ago from the German prosecutor's office. This German prosecutor's office, they draw a distinction, though, on if Lubitz was believed to be suicidal at the time of last week's crash. Listen here to a little bit more.
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CHRISTOPH KUMPA, DUSSELDORF STATE PROSECUTOR: These documents don't show any hint of being suicidal or being aggressive against other people.
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[11:05:04] BERMAN: Various reports say evidence shows Lubitz had been taking anti-psychotic injections, antidepressants, and also had failing eyesight that could have ended his career before he had that chance to do what authorities say he did, to kill the 149 innocent people on that flight.
Now, there are also new reports from the cockpit voice recorder leaked to a prominent German newspaper that reveal that the pilot pleaded -- the captain pleaded, "For god's sake, open the door." after being locked out of the cockpit by the co-pilot.
So many new details to discuss this morning. Senior international correspondent Frederik Pleitgen is standing outside the Germanwings headquarters in Cologne, Germany. And the bombshell we heard, evidence that this co-pilot had been suicidal in the past. Fred?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, in the very past. And it's interesting also, as you said, how the prosecutors office seems to draw the distinction between any suicidal tendencies that he had before trying to get his pilot license and then the way that he was feeling in the time leading up to when he crashed -- or allegedly crashed -- that plane into the side of that mountain.
Now, one of the interesting tidbits from that press conference, John, was also the fact that the state prosecutor's spokesman also said that, at the time, it does not appear Lubitz was suffering for any organic illness, he said. With that, they mean any sort of physical ailment. It's very interesting to hear that because there had been some speculation here in German media that those vision problems, that various media outlets have been reporting about that he seems to have been suffering from, may have coming from a retina detachment. Still unclear, however, where they come from. But they certainly are now saying it does not appear he seemed to have any sort of physical ailment.
Also interesting in light of the fact that Germanwings has come out and said that he passed a physical in summer of 2014 and he certainly didn't have any vision problems at that point in time. However, of course, we do know that he did have sick notes that were given to him by the doctor that was treating him that he tried to hide from his employer. So certainly a lot of things we're finding out from this press conference as we slowly try to piece together what sort of ailments, what sort of mental illness also, or mental problems Andreas Lubitz might have been suffering from. John?
BOLDUAN: And it makes it all the more important, Fred, what exactly were -- what exactly was the reasoning on that not-fit-to-fly order that he had tried to shred and put in a trash bin in his apartment that the prosecutors have talked about? What exactly was on that doctor's note and in those medical records? That makes that all the more important, what you're laying out right there.
But also additionally, we are learning, you are learning more details -- really it's difficult to even get into -- of the final moments of that flight.
PLEITGEN: Yes, very chilling, very devastating. There comes from an alleged transcript from the cockpit voice recorder that was released by a German newspaper called "The Bild", which is the largest newspaper here in Germany. Impossible for us to independently verify the authenticity, but again it is a very chilling read.
It seems as though the flight started out in a very normal way. It had 20 minutes' delay, and then it appears as though Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot, in many ways was trying to get his captain out of the cockpit. Now, it seems as though at about 38,000 feet, when they reached cruising altitude, that that's what happened. The captain got out, went to the bathroom, and at that point almost immediately the plane started descending. What happened then is that air traffic control tried to get in touch with the aircraft, did not succeed. And then there seemed to have been various attempts by the captain, by Patrick Sondenheimer, to try and make his way back into the cockpit, banging on the cockpit door.
There were metallic banging sounds on cockpit door a little later. There were warnings from the aircraft that it was approaching terrain. Then at some point there was screaming also coming from the cabin. One of the last noises the investigators say they heard was the right wing, they believe, of the aircraft scraping over a mountain top. Then they heard screaming from the passengers one more time, and that is then when this recording ends.
Again, a very, very chilling read and certainly the French investigators say they are not happy that any sort of information about this investigation might have been leaked.
BERMAN: Not happy, although those details do show -- maybe reveal why there was so much certainty among investigators last week when they pointed the finger at this co-pilot. Frederik Pleitgen for us in Cologne. Thanks so much, Fred.
We do have new developments at the crash site itself this morning. Among other things, they're trying to build a road to help speed the recovery in the mountains. Erin McLaughin is at the staging area for us. Good morning, Erin.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. An incredibly emotional scene, an incredibly somber scene playing out here in Vernet, France. The families have arrived at this memorial site to remember their loved ones.
[11:10:00] You see that light blue bus just over that way. Well, they arrived on board that bus. They arrived with a police escort. Behind that bus is a memorial stone with an inscriptions in multiple languages dedicated to the victims of Flight 9525. The French police opening up the various national flags belonging to the home countries of the passengers as well.
Among the relatives here today, the family members of Carol Friday, 68 years old, her son Greig, 29. They were on board Flight 9525; they're from Melbourne, Australia. The Australian Press Attache saying that they're here to lay flowers. They came bringing messages from home. Here's her brother, Mal Coram, as well as his two daughters. You can see them holding each other. They even went for a little walk in the area. Incredibly emotional and incredibly somber.
Now the residents in this area say they want to help these families grieve. They want to help them through this process. Many local residents say they've opened up their homes to these families. One resident saying that this is their home too now. And he said that they will always be welcome here. Take a listen.
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PASQUIN CRISTOFARI, LA VERNET RESIDENT (through translator): Yes, it's unimaginable, but above all I'm thinking about the families. The families, be they German or Spanish or whatever nationality, must not think it's a hostile land here. They have to come back. We'll welcome them. They have to know it's their land, too, now, because their bodies, or at least parts of bodies, which remain buried in the ground, and they'll stay forever. So they need to come back. It will be good for them and for us, too.
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MCLAUGHLIN: The residents here say they, too, are trying to cope with this tremendous loss, trying to understand just how something so horrifying could happen in such a place so serene. John and Kate?
BOLDUAN: That could be a long time before they, if ever, that they get an answer to that. I was also reading this morning that over 300 family members of victims have already arrived in France and are heading there. You can imagine everything they're up against right when they arrive on that crash site.
Erin, thank you so much.
BERMAN: We have a horrible vehicle crash to tell you about out of Florida. A van carrying a church group ran a stop sign, then crossed four lanes on a major highway, before crashing into a median wall and landing in a water-filled ditch. Eight people were killed, ten others hurt. A four-year-old child did survive and is hospitalized right now in stable condition.
BOLDUAN: And also this, President Obama, 19 other world leaders facing a pretty shocking data breach right now. Their private information released by mistake. This is really private information, including details like passport numbers, visa information. You and I wouldn't want that released.
Well, it was inadvertently sent by the Australian Immigration Department to the local organizers of a soccer tournament. They do say that the data was destroyed and not distributed further. That leak also involved the heads of Russia, China, India, Japan, Germany and the United Kingdom.
BERMAN: I will say, if you try to steal President Obama's identity, you're going to have a hard time.
BOLDUAN: Yes, there's this agency called the National Security Agency that they could probably --
BERMAN: Yes, you're not going to go into the store and say hey, I'm Barack Obama. They're going to be like -- really?
BOLDUAN: Really? We've got something to talk to you.
Coming up for us AT THIS HOUR, what medical issue could have made a pilot crash a plane and kill 149 people? We're going to take a closer look at the life, as we know it, and as the details unfold of Andreas Lubitz and what he was hiding from his employer.
BERMAN: And what is this new Indiana religious freedom law really about? Is it anti-gay? Indiana's governor says no and insists he's not backing down, though he does refuse to answer some key questions.
[11:13:47]
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[11:17:08] BOLDUAN: AT THIS HOUR, we're learning important new details about co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, the man, of course, accused of flying Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountainside.
There's a lot to parse through. This one is the important part. German prosecutors say that before he was a pilot, it is believed that Lubitz was suicidal and underwent psychotherapy. But they also make a distinction that say that he showed no evidence, no signs of being suicidal or having any aggressive behavior around the time of the crash. Then you have this, "Britain's Daily Mail" reporting that Lubitz was suffering from serious visual impairment which was likely to worsen. He had reportedly lost some large percentage of his eyesight from a detached retina and may have worried his dream to become a long haul pilot was doomed.
BERMAN: Veteran pilot and author Karlene Petitt joins us now from Seattle. CNN aviation analyst and former NTSB managing director, Peter Goelz, joins us from Washington.
Peter, let me start with you here. This revelation just this morning that this man, Andreas Lubitz, had been suicidal. We don't know how recently. It seems much of it was well in the past. We know that mental health issues are something that a lot of people deal with, a lot of them are treatable, a lot of people lead very functional, full, thorough healthy lives when they are treated. But when you are dealing with being a commercial airline pilot, Peter, what needs to be taken into account? Is that something that the airline needed to know and should have considered? PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I think Lufthansa is noted in
the industry as having one of the most extensive screening processes available. They are known to delve deeply into people's background and insist on technical excellence. What this does is it opens the door for a thorough review of the policies. For instance, in the military, if you're seeing an outside doctor and you're flying for the military, you must report that to your flight surgeon and he can reach out to that doctor and get all of the information he needs or she needs to determine whether you're fit to fly. So this is an issue that's going to be, I think, debated extensively in the coming months.
BOLDUAN: Karlene, you're an international airline pilot. From your perspective, when you're looking at this, the fact that they now believe he was suicidal in the past, they also talk about that he had taken a break in his training at one point then he came back and finished his pilot training. When you come back after an intensive break like that, if it coincided with the suicidal tendencies and the psychotherapy, would he have to report that? Who needs to know this?
KARLENE PETITT, INTERNATIONAL AIRLINE PILOT: You know, that's a very touchy subject. Everyone should report it.
[11:20:00] But when you're dealing with mental health patients, a mental health patient is not going to have the ability to report their own illness. They just don't know. Not only do they not identify it, they don't report it. So I'm going to have to look back at the doctors treating him. Those doctors had a responsibility to contact the airline. If they thought that individual should not be flying an airplane and give them a note, they should have contacted the airline, contacted the CAA and said this man should not be in an airplane. And because-
BOLDUAN: But Karlene, could-Are those doctors even allowed to contact the airline? I would say no.
PETITT: You know, I'm not sure what the-Well, here is a point, I'm going to have to ask you this question. If you knew 150, 300 people's lives or thousands of lives could be in danger, would you be willing to risk breaking the law to notify somebody? I would. If I knew somebody was going to be in danger, I would definitely step up and say something and then you sort it out afterwards. But I'm not sure how the-
BERMAN: A lot of the screening measures that are in place here are actually to protect pilots applying and protect pilot safety. Let me as you, as someone who was in the cockpit, would you feel comfortable flying alongside someone as your co-pilot who had been suicidal in the past? Even if it's treated?
PETITT: Not-suicidal is a completely different thing. If somebody is being treated for depression or anxiety disorder, just some normal-I want to say everyday stressors of life that we all deal with but they might not be coping that well so they need assistance to cope, absolutely I would be willing to fly with them. Anyone suicidal, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Suicidal, anybody who has suicidal tendencies should not be in an airplane. BERMAN: Even someone who had had them-I guess, 2008-if that was it,
several years in the past and maybe it had been treated?
PETITT: How do you treat suicidal tendencies? How do you treat something like that? If they're in a point where that's even an option then, it's going to be an option today and it will probably be an option tomorrow. You know, I'm not-I have a master's in human services and I've done critical incident response training. I don't have a psychology degree, in essence, so I don't know. That would be for a psychiatrist to answer that, but from the training I have I don't know if you can fix something like that. And it depends on the level. It depends on the level of what it was. You could take a teenager who's having these thoughts because they're dealing with life situations and then they learn and get through it and learn life's fine and they're going to be perfectly normal functioning human beings. So it depends. It's case by case. It's really going to have to depend on the level and what was happening. This is pretty short term from 2008 to 2015 and have nobody notified.
BERMAN: I think there will be some discussions ahead inside the industry as to what they do going forward. Karlene Petitt, Peter Goelz, thank you so much.
BOLDUAN: We're going to continue discussing this first. But Karlene pointed out and Peter also discussed it, it's a touchy subject, it's difficult and by and large, we're not looking at every pilot having this kind of a situation. This is clearly an extreme situation, not the vast majority of the pilots that are in the cockpits right now.
BERMAN: But it seemed to happen here, you want to keep it from happening again.
BOLDUAN: Exactly right, John.
BERMAN: Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, some people are calling it a license to discriminate, but the Governor of Indiana claims that his state's new religious freedom law is misunderstood. There's been a huge backlash and now new attempts to clarify this law just within the last few hours. Will this only add fuel to that fire?
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[11:27:11] BERMAN: Happening now, Indiana Governor Mike Pence says the media is engaging in "shameless rhetoric"` over his state's new restoration of religious freedom law. Critics say the law would allow businesses to discriminate against gay customers based on religious grounds.
BOLDUAN: He made the comments during his Sunday interview with ABC. But when pressed by George Stephanopoulos, the governor wouldn't answer a pretty direct question. Take a look.
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GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC: Yes or no, if a florist in Indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in Indiana? GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: George, this is where this debate has
gone with misinformation and-
STEPHANOPOULOS: It's just a question, sir. Yes or no?
PENCE: Well, there has been shameless rhetoric about my state and about this law and about its intention all over the internet. People are trying to make it about one particular issue and now you're doing that as well.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Is that true or not?
PENCE: George, look, the issue here is, is tolerance a two-way street or not?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Joining us now from Indianapolis, Rosa Flores. You've been following this. Rosa, continuing today, there's been some more back and forth between Republicans and Democrats in Indiana. What are you hearing?
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, one of the fascinating things, Kate, is we just heard that sound bite from the governor and the Republicans coming forward and saying we support the governor, however, we do not like how he answered the question about discrimination, the question that ABC was grilling him on, that's why they say that they felt compelled to have a press conference today to say this. Take a listen.
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DAVID LONG, INDIANA SENATE PRESIDENT PRO TEM: We don't believe that anyone should be discriminated against, we wouldn't have supported this law if we thought that what the effect of it, to the extent that we need to clarify that by adding something to the law to make that clear that's not the intent of the law. We're more than willing to do it, we plan to do that. But again, we don't support discrimination against anyone and this law doesn't do that.
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FLORES: And then Democrats had a press conference right after that saying that they don't want this bill to be clarified, they want this law repealed. John, Kate?
BOLDUAN: I also found interesting, Rosa, that the governor has said he wanted to go on the Sunday show because he wanted to offer clarity and it seems that he did not help his case there. A lot to discuss on this and Rosa is on the ground for us. Rosa, thank you so much.
Ahead for us still AT THIS HOUR, the Germanwings crash was devastating and it will be costly. Next, a look at just how much this air disaster could cost Lufthansa.
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