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Police Investigation at NSA Headquarters; Mayors Ban City Workers from Going to Indiana; U.S. Oil Surplus. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired March 30, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We have to allow for the possibility that this was another kind of incident. That it was not tied to terrorism but keep in mind the NSA, like other government agencies, very aware of the current threat level and they have kept their security high and tight as a result of that.

[10:30:03] And, in fact, that's the way they designed these facilities. They've been designed this way for a number of years to keep the threat away, to keep public access a safe distance from the main buildings. In this case the NSA, Fort Meade and the other facilities there, and the thousands of workers who work there as well.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And we do have reports from our affiliate, WJLA there was a tweet from Anne Arundel County police that shots were fired. We don't know who was shooting the gun right in this case, the suspect or the police. We're going to find out in a little bit.

Actually we probably won't find that out for quite some time because I don't think the NSA will come out quickly. And give us some more information.

I wanted to go to our security analyst and FBI guy Tom Fuentes. He's on the phone. Can you tell anything from this scene at all, Tom?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Carol -- without seeing the big picture I can't tell how far away. There are several security perimeters around NSA headquarters. As you mentioned having been there, I've been there many, many times also. The idea that somebody could drive any kind of a vehicle, I don't care if it's a bulldozer, through those security checkpoints (INAUDIBLE).

COSTELLO: Oh, our connection died with Tom Fuentes. We're going to try to get Tom back. He was just about to say something quite interesting.

But Jim, we'll expound on that because you've been to the NSA building yourself and security is quite tight. They know when you come off the highway and hit it on that exit ramp to the NSA. In fact, I used to drive to work to Washington early in the morning and my cell phone signal would always go out when I passed the NSA. It's very eerie, actually.

SCIUTTO: I have noticed that as well sometimes and I don't know if it's imagined but I think it makes sense when I pass other intelligence facilities.

Listen, they are concerned about the threat and you see similar security facilities such as the CIA where, remember, you had a shooting like this a number of years ago where someone drove up to the public access road and fired an automatic weapon at the CIA headquarters. So there's a history here. They know that they could be a target.

Again, we don't know the circumstances of this incident. Was it, you know, intentional? Was someone just driving their car, ramming? Did someone from the car fire? Is it something else? We have to allow for that possibility as always in incidents like this.

But we also know that the current terror threat is one where government facilities, particularly intelligence facilities, military facilities, are very much on alert for the possibility of attacks like this one.

So right now all the information coming from emergency services, the Anne Arundel County police, the fire department that they responded to an incident. And you know as well as I Carol that probably the last organization we'll hear from will be the NSA itself but trust me I've been making a lot of calls to them to get that coming.

COSTELLO: All right. Tom Fuentes, I got him back on the phone. You were saying, Tom?

FUENTES: You know, Carol, I was saying that the perimeter security of that at the very outer most perimeters would still be within police jurisdiction. NSA has its own security within the perimeter. So if you had somebody actually break through the outer perimeter then try to drive through the inner perimeter then try to drive through other perimeters -- you know, the idea of driving a vehicle anywhere close to that building is absurd.

And, you know, we very probably could just have a mental illness issue with somebody that has something against NSA and wants to make a statement. As far as the security, they will shoot you if you try to ram your way through these outer perimeters.

And this happened at Andrews Air Force Base and I think it's about 10 or 15 years ago now and it turned out to be a teenage boy who just refused to stop at the checkpoint, drove through the barricade and they shot and killed him. And it turned out to not to be a terrorist. You know, it'll be a situation like that.

So right now we don't know the motive but we do know that if somebody tries to go through those perimeters forcibly they will get shot.

COSTELLO: Yes. I'm seeing FBI agents on the scene right now and you mentioned all of the police agencies who would be in charge of this investigation but who ultimately would have the upper hand?

FUENTES: Carol, the agency in charge of this, an attack on NSA was an attack on a federal government preservation. The FBI will be in charge of this completely. But if the whole incident occurred right at the outer perimeter, then you would have possibly local police that intercepted or maybe the NSA's police, you know, calling for help with the local police.

But we don't know exactly how the local police ended up there. Maybe this was a high-speed pursuit that ended up there or some other situation. But the actual attempt to penetrate NSA headquarters would be an FBI matter.

COSTELLO: Got you. You know, I'm just thinking of the incidents we've had at the White House recently with people not in their right minds trying to do nefarious things on the White House grounds.

[10:35:04] Does it seem that there are more incidents like this to you? Or are they just happening in quick succession and it seems that way?

FUENTES: That's a good question. I think that, you know, possibly there's just more people also realizing that any attempt on the White House or on another federal facility of high profile as NSA headquarters or CIA headquarters will also guarantee their 15 minutes of fame if it's a mental situation. If they were some kind of a trained terrorist group, this is a really feeble unprofessional attempt if it was terrorists.

COSTELLO: Yes, because it's -- I don't know. I can't remember -- it's not marked off the highway that the NSA is back there, is it?

FUENTES: I think NSA, if it still is, is the largest employer in the state of Maryland and that facility is obviously known far and wide off of Highway 32. And I believe there are signs that mark that. There's no hiding it. And when you're driving on the outer perimeter and the sidewalk, you can see the massive array of gigantic disk monitoring satellites from the sky sending messages from all over the world. So this is in no way a secret or covert facility from the public.

COSTELLO: And you can certainly see the security gates from the highway, from the BW Parkway. I do indeed know that because I've seen them many times. So you're right. People know there's a secured facility behind there. But who knows?

We're going to try to gather more information and I'll be back on the other side of the break. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:40:06] COSTELLO: All right. Welcome back.

We're following some breaking news right now for you. This is coming from outside of Washington. Police and FBI agents reporting to the disturbance of some kind at Fort Meade. This video is from our CNN affiliate WJLA. You can see badly damaged vehicles near a security gate there and what appears to be a body lying on the concrete there covered with a white sheet.

According to the "Washington Post" and other news media, this is on the campus on the National Security Administration, the NSA -- the American spy agency which is housed at this army installation. We do have reports from local police, as in tweets from Anne Arundel County -- one dead and one injured.

Jim Sciutto has been working his sources. He has a bit more information for us. What have you got, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Carol, some new information now. Again, the NSA still not commenting on this but a law enforcement source speaking to our own Evan Perez saying that two men tried to ram the gate at the NSA in a vehicle, that NSA security officers at that gate fired at them, shot one dead and seriously injured a second. That coming from law enforcement sources now.

So, again, the details -- two men tried to ram that security gate that you're seeing there on our air now in a vehicle, possibly that vehicle in the foreground there, that NSA security officers responded with gunfire. They killed one, seriously injured a second one.

And that, lining up with the reports we'd heard from local police earlier about one dead and one injured. Again the NSA still not commenting, but law enforcement commenting to our own Evan Perez. So this appears to look like an attack, an attempted attack, but no motive determined at this point.

No nexus to terrorism determined at this point. Just that the security officers at the scene made a judgment that that vehicle was attempting to ram the gate and they fired. They were able to kill one, injure the other, and, of course, stop the threat that they perceived at the time.

COSTELLO: It's interesting that two men were inside of that vehicle. I wish we could see the license plate so we know where that vehicle was from but we don't know much else about the suspects other than one is dead and one injured?

SCIUTTO: That's exactly right. And, again, this gets to -- and Tom Fuentes raised this question before, as well. What is the motivation? You have -- you know this is now a security incident. You know that the security officers on the scene judged that they were a threat. You still don't know what their motivation is. It could be terrorism, it could be something else. It could be mental illness.

But when you do have two people present that raises more questions because for two people to act, that implies that there may be something more intentional than one person but, again, we don't know. Law enforcement not commenting on this, the NSA not -- not commenting on motivation, I should say, and the NSA not commenting on the incident at all.

COSTELLO: All right. Jim Sciutto, many thanks. I appreciate it.

In other news this morning anger at Indiana's new religious freedom law prompting travel bans to the state for city employees from two major cities. In San Francisco, the mayor says no public funds can be spent for employee travel unless quote, "essential to public health and safety". Seattle's mayor agrees and will also inspect city contracts to see if there are any businesses located in Indiana.

CNN's Rosa Flores is in Indianapolis this morning with more. She joins me now on the phone. Hi, Rosa.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol.

I hope you can hear me clearly, I'm having a little trouble hearing you but we just finished two different press conferences -- one on the Republican side and another on the Democrat side.

Let me tell you something, Republicans, they are saying that this law is definitely not discriminating against anyone, not discriminating against the LGBT community; the Democrats coming right after that and saying that they're asking for a repeal of the religious law. And so they're saying, you know, that this is the time to correct this. This is the time to take action and both sides very adamant about their position -- Carol.

COSTELLO: What are the Republicans saying? Are they in any way going to clarify the law?

FLORES: Yes. They said that they are working on language. I specifically asked them what language they would be adding to clarify this. They said that their lawyers are still working on the actual language and so they don't have specifics.

I'm actually going to be interviewing the speaker of the house at about 12:15 today. And I plan to ask him that question specifically. What is it that you would add to this law to make sure that it's clear enough that people don't think that it's OK to discriminate?

[10:45:08] And they know that they have a real perception issue right now. As you mentioned, that some mayors from other cities, Seattle and San Francisco, saying that they don't want to spent taxpayer money in Indiana at all. So they know they have a perception issue and they say that now they're going to have to correct it and they said that this press conference is the first step in doing that.

COSTELLO: All right Rosa Flores. I'll let you get right back to it. Thanks so much.

I want to bring in Joey Jackson now, HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. Welcome.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you -- Carol.

COSTELLO: I want to like go through this law to find out why it's confusing so many people.

JACKSON: Sure.

COSTELLO: Here's the key part of the law that is kind of vague, it's confusing. It says and I'm quoting from the law itself, "A governmental entity may not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability." What does that mean?

JACKSON: That's a great question, which is why there's an underlying concern. Let's talk about the general then we'll go into the specific. I think in general concerns, that's politics above my pay grade but I think there's a concern that, of course, this state attempted to ban gay marriage. Was unsuccessful at that and so there's an inherent distrust in now passing this legislation. That's the one general thing we have to talk about.

The second thing, Carol, is that sexual orientation as a protected class is not a protected class in this state. So, for example, when the governor came out and said Barack Obama, he voted on this issue and he voted the same way on the reformation in Illinois, that's true. But Illinois has a protection that bans discrimination predicated upon sexual orientation. Indianapolis -- Indiana does not. And so that's a major distinction because you would not otherwise have that protection.

COSTELLO: OK. So let's simplify further. Let's simplify. And this is what George Stephanopoulos asked the mayor of Indiana over the weekend. Could a gay couple go into a florist's shop and could the florist say "You know, I don't sell flowers to gay people."

JACKSON: Well, let's talk about the bill itself.

COSTELLO: Because the governor, by the way, did not answer that.

JACKSON: Did not answer the question. I saw the interview. He didn't answer the question. Let's talk about a couple of provisions, not to get too in the weeds but we have to look to the legislation itself.

Look at Section V. What does it say -- Carol? As used in this chapter, exercise of religion includes any exercise of religion whether or not compelled or central to a central religious belief. Now, it says includes. It doesn't say religion means and generally statute provides specific example of what religion means. So if this is a friend's religious belief I have, it doesn't have to be central to my general religious principles, if it's on the outskirts that's enough.

Now specifically to your question about the florist, the other concern I think that people are very concerned about, if you look at Section VII, and that Section VII talks about what a person means. An individual, an organization, religious society -- it defines person very broadly.

So unlike what appears the governor is saying that governmental action would be what this bill gets to, it seems like a private individual, so if I'm that florist owner, it's not central to my religious belief, as a result of that I may or may not choose to serve or not serve. So I think that's a very compelling concern that this legislation has. COSTELLO: And that's how Indiana's legislation differs from the

Religious Freedom Restoration Act signed by President Clinton in 1993. It's much more broad than that federal statute.

JACKSON: Exactly. It's broader than that federal statute. I should also point out, Carol, that that federal statute in 1993 does not apply to the states. States in and of themselves have to make their own recognition by passing legislation like this. Not only does it differ from the federal statute in that way even though when applied, but in addition to that, it differs from the 19 other states, viewers should also know that 19 other states have these laws.

So why aren't we screaming about those other laws? Because this is much more expansive than those laws in addition to, again, the issue about sexual orientation. Indiana does not protect that as a protected class. People are therefore very concerned about the applicability of this statute to them and to people of the gay and lesbian community.

COSTELLO: So Republican lawmakers in the state of Indiana would respectfully disagree.

JACKSON: Of course.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: But again politics is out of my realm. Just from a pure legal perspective, I'm focusing in on this issue.

COSTELLO: Yes, yes, yes. OK, Joey. Well, here's what the senate president said, David Long. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LONG, INDIANA STATE SENATE PRESIDENT: We don't believe anyone should be discriminated against. We would haven't supported this law if we thought that were the effect of it to the extent that we need to clarify that by adding something to the law to make that clear. That's not the intent of the law. We're more than willing to do it, we plan to do that.

But again, we don't support discrimination against anyone and this law doesn't do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So it's difficult for me to believe that in order to clarify the law that GOP lawmakers would put in specifically you cannot discriminate against gay and lesbians. I just don't think they'll do that. So what other language can they put in that law to clarify things?

[10:50:00] JACKSON: Sure. What ultimately they do is up to them, not getting in the realm of politics but as it's written now, the major concern is how is this going to be applied. And I just talked to you about Section VII which defines person so broadly back to the florist shop. So if I'm an individual and it's against the norms of my religious belief, it doesn't have to be central to my belief system but if it's against the norms or even on the fringes, I could deny.

So perhaps they can add language that suggests that you cannot deny, but that would be dragging them back into the issue of adding sexual orientation as a protected class, something the governor was also asked and said he was not prepared at this point to do.

COSTELLO: Joey Jackson, thanks for clarifying.

JACKSON: Pleasure and privilege.

COSTELLO: Appreciate it as always .

Still to come in the NEWSROOM -- startling new details about the final moments of that Germanwings flight revealed as relatives push to get a closer view of the wreckage. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: OK, the roller coaster ride continues on what -- we should be used to this by now. Yes, the stock market was down but this morning the Dow is -- look at that -- it's up 269 points almost. That's amazing. So we'll wait to see what happens later in the day.

Let's talk about something else that's amazing. Just as oil prices were beginning to creep up after plummeting in recent months, they could be set to drop again. It's amazing in a bad way. Even as unrest in the Middle East threatens to push prices up, a key issue here in the United States may push them down. And get this, this is the reason why, we are running out of places to store all of our surplus oil.

[10:55:06] Chief business correspondent Christine Romans joins me now. Who'd have thunk it?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Our cup runneth over -- literally. They're producing so much oil in this country they're running out of places to put it. That could cause some pressure on prices down the road.

So kind of three story lines here. One we're producing 1.5 million barrels a day, more crude than the world is using so you've got this big supply issue. Two, the Iran nuclear deal; if a deal is done -- tomorrow's the deadline -- if a deal is done then you've got, you know, Iran could potentially be exporting legally more oil. That would be even more supply on top of more supply.

But here let me rein it back a little bit because then there's this other big negative. What about Yemen? Yemen and Saudi Arabia leading potentially more ground offense into Yemen; instability in the Middle East could cause oil prices to pop. Remember there are a lot of different levers being moved in the oil market at any given time.

COSTELLO: Well, let's go back to the storage problem in the United States. ROMANS: Sure.

COSTELLO: Because you hear politicians say all the time that America wants to become oil independent -- right.

ROMANS: Yes.

COSTELLO: but if we don't have enough storage facilities in the United States, that's a problem.

ROMANS: If the U.S. can start to -- if the U.S. economy starts to grow a little more strongly, that would help. The world economy would start to grow a little more strongly, that would help as well. It would take some oil off the market in other parts of the world.

But you're absolutely right. It's a sign of the success of the American energy miracle that there's all this oil sitting around -- quite frankly sitting around. This is what politicians have been promising for decades, right? That we didn't want to be holed into the Middle East politics, we didn't want to be beholden to other countries, that the U.S. needs its energy independence.

COSTELLO: It would have been nice if they were ready. Christine Romans -- thanks so much.

And thank all of you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"AT THIS HOUR" with Berman and Bolduan after a break.

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