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Dr. Drew

Germanwings Co-Pilot Reportedly Was Suicidal And On Antidepressants; A German Paper Publishes The Doomed Flight`s Black Box Recordings; A Baby`s Paternity Is In Question, But The Infant Dies Hours Before Appearing On A Talk Show, Where They Were Going To Learn Who Is The Daddy; A Husband Suspects His Wife Has Been Cheating, So He Super Glued Her Genitalia

Aired March 30, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:08] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: He was clearly unfit to fly. The co-pilot reportedly was suicidal and on

antidepressants. And, I will tell you that is not the problem. There was something much more serious out there. Being depressed does not make you a

mass murder. I will also tell you what else was missed.

And a baby`s paternity is in question, but the infant dies hours before appearing on a talk show, where they were going to learn who is the daddy.

What caused this tragedy?

But, first it is our most tweeted story of the day. Tonight, disturbing new details about the co-pilot, who deliberately slammed a passenger jet

into the French Alps. And, a German paper publishes the doomed flight`s black box recordings. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Around 10:00 A.M., the plane takes off from Barcelona. The captain then tells Lubitz, he did not go to the bathroom in

Barcelona and Lubitz replies "Go any time." The captain is heard getting up and saying, "You can take over."

Lubitz now alone with a door locked reprograms the autopilot from 38,000 feet to 100 feet. An alarm goes off inside the cockpit warning "Sink

Rate." Then a loud bang on the door. The captain screaming, "For God sake, open the door."

Passengers are also heard screaming. Five minutes before impact, more bangs can be heard, metallic noises as if someone was trying to knock the

door down. 90 seconds later, another alarm goes off warning, "Terrain, pull up."

The captain screams, "Open the damn door." 10:40 A.M., investigators believe they hear the plane`s right wing scrape a mountaintop. Then

screams once more from the 149 on board. Lubitz apparently stays silent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, Professor at Pepperdine University and Loni Coombs, former

prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies Parent`s Tell." I also got CNN Correspondent Will Ripley in Dusseldorf, Germany. Will, give

us an update, if you would.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, prosecutors here in Dusseldorf today talked about this vision problem that had been in the news the past few

days being psychosomatic. Meaning that essentially Andreas Lubitz, his mental state made his vision problems worse.

It was not because of an illness of any kind. But, it just goes to show, his mental illness that he had been living with for a number of years had

kept getting worse. And, he was able to while seekiing the treatment of doctors, he kept it hidden from his employer and most of the people in his

life.

We know that he was suicidal even before he got his pilot`s license. He struggled with tremendous amount of anxiety. He had what is described as a

burnout system, a burnout -- I apologized.

He was basically experiencing so much trauma and stress in his job that that was also a diagnosis, Doc. And, as you know, if you are a pilot, you

are not supposed to be -- certainly, suicide attempts could disqualify you from being a pilot --

PINSKY: Will --

RIPLEY: And, there is a questionnaire that they are supposed to fill out - -

PINSKY: Wil --

RIPLEY -- to talk about it --

PINSKY: I get it. I got to tell you, I know that is what is being reported. And, that is the way it is being reported. And, I am telling

you, they got it all wrong. They are not looking at the right stuff here at all, but I do appreciate that update, Will.

Judy, first of all, let us go to the psychosomatic vision problems. Listen, all we know is that he went to the eye doctor and was told there is

nothing wrong with his eyes. One of the conclusions could be that it is something to do with his psychiatric condition or his psychological state.

Mind you, this is a guy that had been receiving huge doses of anti- psychotic medication for which one of the main side effects is blurry vision. And, we know he was not telling anybody. So, there is an easy

interpretation for why the eye doctor did not find any problems.

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right. And, when he say psychosomatic, there is actually a clinical syndrome that aligns with that.

And, it is possible that he could have some type of somatiform disorder where he experiences physical illnesses, but they are actually a

manifestation of a psychological symptom.

PINSKY: Especially -- well, I hate to use the word psychological for this guy, because he was receiving long-acting intramascular lon-acting

antipsychotic medication. That is reserved for very seriously ill psychiatric patients.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: People that will not take their meds or in denial about their condition and are dangerous ill. The doctor will sometimes give them one

of these. There are several. My bet -- I heard olanzapine was being discussed, but I bet it was risperidone.

There were all kind of -- they are saying it is atypical and there are newer antipsychotic medications. But if the flight authority knew that he

was receiving this medication, it is unlikely it seems to me they would not let him fly.

But, Loni, in Germany, the privacy laws are so stringent and so ridiculous that even knowing the -- the doctor knows he was unfit to fly, a dangerous

person, he or she was unable to report it to the employer because of the German privacy laws, the medical privacy laws.

[21:05:07] So, they gave him a note saying, "you are unfit to work." And, they could not give that to the employer. They had to trust this guy to do

that.

LONI COOMBS , FORMER PROSECUTOR: How crazy is that, right? They are saying he is not fit to fly and yet they are saying, "But, you are fit

enough to decide if you should tell your employer that you are fit to fly or not." But that is not the doctor`s --

PINSKY: What is wrong with the German laws? What is going on with them? They are crazy.

COOMBS: It is the German -- It is -- they are. And, it is not the doctor`s fault. It is the German laws, which are some of the most

stringent in the world. And, essentially, the doctor can be criminally prosecuted. If they report anything like that, all they do --

PINSKY: Well, stop, stop, Loni. They can be criminally prosecuted --

COOMBS: Yes.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Wow!

PINSKY: Vanessa, they can be criminally prosecuted if they go to the employer and try to save the lives of the people on that plane, because

mind you -- if they went to the employer, this dude would not have killed anybody and that doctor would have gone to jail.

BARNETT: Exactly. And, now, I want to blame the doctors, but their hands are tied like you said, but who was being held accountable? You cannot

trust this man who has a storied history of different illnesses --

PINSKY: Of course not. He said he is not well --

BARNETT: And, his doctor has said, he has all these drugs --

PINSKY: You are relying on the sick person --

BARNETT: -- You cannot trust him to make the right decisions.

PINSKY: You are relying on the sick person, who lacks insight into their illness. That is one of the features in these kinds of illnesses, to have

insight and report their illness. Judy, you get me on this ?

HO: Absolutely, I do, Dr. Drew. And, it is a little bit different here in the U.S. --

PINSKY: A lot different. A lot different.

HO: -- because we are bound by different rules.

PINSKY: Yes, a lot different.

HO: Absolutely. So, it is actually our responsibility to report --

PINSKY: But, lots of Americans go overseas and fly. And, we need to know about this.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Because -- my God. And, listen, the FAA, I just learned -- I did in Anderson Cooper a few minutes ago. And, the FAA has a hotline. You can

give anonymous tips. Anybody can give tips with this concerns.

They police them like professionals. That is what professional societies do, they police themselves. And, I do not see how you can possibly do that

in Germany with these kinds of stringent regulations.

HO: Yes, and to add to that, Dr. Drew, there is so much stigma about mental illness in Germany, so much more than even in the U.S. In fact,

their levels of somatization when somebody has a mental illness is at the levels of countries in Asia that are known to --

PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait, say that again. That is almost comical if it were not tragic.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: You are saying that when they get mental illness, they are so much in denial, so much stigmatized that they have to make it a physical

problem?

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Oh my God!

HO: And, they are at the levels of somatization, Dr. Drew, that we associate with some Asian cultures like Chinese and Japanese, who also do

this to a great degree. And, that is why even in the U.S., you see Chinese-Americans presenting at the emergency room with supposed medical

conditions. They are actually psychiatric in nature.

PINSKY: And, then when you give them the psychiatric diagnosis, they go into denial, but I have never been proud of our system, frankly.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Because I will tell you what, I have always been worried about our privacy laws trumping the well-being and the needs of the community. In

Germany, that is what happened.

In here, doctors can use their judgment to report things and the FAA is doing a really good job, actually, of having an anonymous hotline available

for anyone, not just doctors. And, they have a system in place where people can report mental illness and have them satisfactorily treated.

And if somebody has an illness, well, guess what? They should not be flying a plane. I am sorry, there are conditions like that. There are

conditions where you should not be driving a car.

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: And, guess what? That is to help you when that gets reported as well as help the rest of us.

Next up, did a nightmare foreshadow this disaster? Well, I do not think so. But, find out what the pilot`s -- the co-pilot`s former girlfriend has

is saying.

And, later, a baby dies hours before her mother was to appear on the "Maury Show." I will tell you what happened.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN PUTHENPURACKAL, REPORTER FOR GERMAN NEWSPAPER WHO INTERVIEWED ANDREAS LUBITZ`S GIRLFRIEND: She felt after those months with him a little bit

scared, a little bit frightened because his spontaneous reaction. He tends to be aggressive.

One night, he suddenly jumped up after suffering from a nightmare. And, he screamed, "The plane goes down. We are going down," you know? And, there

was another moment, where he locked himself into a toilet according to her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Vanessa, Judy and Loni. We are talking about the co- pilot who deliberately crashed a plane into the French Alps, killing all on board. Listen, that story interesting, everybody. We are trying to

connect the dots, where humans` do want to make sense of all this. That means almost nothing to me.

So, he had a night terror, big deal, years ago. He was irritable and labile. That means something to me. How aggressive was he? What was he

thinking about it? Did he have strange ideas? Did he say strange things?

This whole business about being reported that he said he was going do something that changed everything, maybe one of the conditions this guy may

have had was bipolar.

BARNETT: Right.

PINSKY: That is one of the things that they will give the long-acting antipsychotics too. So, Judy, there really only two possibilities for this

guy in terms of what conditions he would have. One is bipolar and the other is schizophrenia. That is it. Right?

HO: That is right, because he is being prescribed an antipsychotic, Dr. Drew. And, you do not give those for depression. Even when the depression

is very severe, you would not give somebody an antipsychotic --

PINSKY: You might --

HO: -- unless there were other issues.

PINSKY: No, no. No, no. I am going to correct you. I am going to say -- Right, other issues like a psychotic depression --

HO: Right, exactly.

PINSKY: -- which would be a short-term use of antipsychotics, and people use things like Abilify and other things --

HO: Right.

PINSKY: -- where they are sort of in that category of antidepressants to try -- of antipsychotics to try to enhance the antidepressant effects, but

you do not give it as a shot.

HO: No.

PINSKY: When you give it a shot, that is for the desperately in trouble -- usually. I do not want to, you know, make -- take issue with it. The

other thing is before the break, somebody brought up a question about stigma. The one thing we do not want to happen for this whole story is to

worsen stigma for people with mental illness.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: That is the last thing we need to have happen here.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: But everybody, stop being psychologists about this. There is something up with this guy`s brain. He may have actually thought he was

doing something to save people.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: That is how altered he may have been in his delusional thinking. Judy, help me explain that.

HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, the fact that he seemed to be very calm in the data that we are gathering in those final moments --

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: -- actually leads credence to what you were just saying, that he may have believed he was doing something right in his mind.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: That, that is how far he had gone --

PINSKY: This is not --

HO: And, that is not a depressive state.

[21:15:00] PINSKY: Not at all. And, by the way, because -- again, to attack stigma, again, just because somebody is depressed and suicidal, does

not make them a mass murderer.

HO: No.

PINSKY: This is a mass murder this guy committed.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: That is something very specific. Now, if he had a long history of torturing animals and being a sociopath and having trouble with the law and

all kinds of other nonsense, he had none of that.

HO: No.

PINSKY: And, Dr. Drew --

HO: This is not that guy.

PINSKY: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, up to 40 percent of Americans at some point have some depressive symptoms. So, we do not want to further

the stigma.

PINSKY: No.

HO: We do not want people to think that all depressive people are going to harm others. That is not true.

PINSKY: And, by the way, there are -- as we find out some of these medications, these medicines could have strange reactions for people, too.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: We do not really know what the meds are yet except this one thing, the long-acting antipsychotic. Vanessa, you are trying to talk here. I am

sorry.

BARNETT: I just had a question. With all of the issues that we are now finding out he had and all of these drugs that he was prescribed, how did

he go through all of these evaluations and nothing was ever detected?

PINSKY: Great question, because the evaluations really are inadequate to detect this sort. Even the ones here are questionably adequate. They are

going to change them here, I am certain. Particularly in terms of the initial screening that people do before somebody comes and gets a pilot`s

license.

And, I believe the professional organizations may be able to do the monitoring. They do a pretty darn good job such as it is. You do not have

these kinds of problems here. And, they encourage reporting and they encourage people to come in and, you know, assess their pilots and talk

about them.

Loni, speaking of these issues, now these physicians who are practicing on this particular case in this country would have a major malpractice

problem. The question, though, is there any criminal liability for the doctors?

COOMBS: Well, in Germany or here? I mean --

PINSKY: Well, give me both.

COOMBS: Yes. In Germany, it is so stringent. They are really not allowed to say anything to anyone. They are allowed to give this note that is not

supposed to give any details to the actual individual and then the individual decides whether they pass it on to anyone else.

They cannot do anything more than that. Even when, Dr. Drew -- you are talking about in his past, there is this question about during his flight

training. It might have been disrupted for a medical condition.

The airline said once they attach medical condition to that excuse, the airline at that point had no way to get any information about exactly what

was going on if it lies at that point.

PINSKY: It is crazy.

COOMBS: Even if they were going to hire him. I mean how ridiculous is that?

PINSKY: It is ridiculous.

COOMBS: You cannot send information.

PINSKY: It is ridiculous.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: Why -- what is so -- this is how stigma gets built. We have to treat psychiatric problems as special and no one can talk about them.

COOMBS: Yes. Right.

PINSKY: Come on! It is a brain condition. If he had a heart problem, he probably would have gone to the employer to talk about that too and that he

got it handled and it is being treated.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: Now, people made a lot of stress at this guy`s under. Stress is not going to help this guy. But, apparently a woman who claimed to have

been Lubitz`s ex-fiancee told the German newspaper Bild, B-I-L-D, that she was pregnant with his child. And, a day before this crash, she broke up

with him. Judy, again, without being psychological, because that is sort of to just so in this situation.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Having significant losses and stresses can further add to his delusional preoccupations at least.

HO: That is right. They can exacerbate a higher level of that psychosis if he was already having one. That is true. But if not so much that, that

in itself can actually precipitate an entire psychosis. We do not see that quite as often.

PINSKY: Right.

HO: There must have been something that was already underlying prior --

PINSKY: Maybe why she broke up because the guy was getting sick on her. She did not understand what was happening and he would not talk about it.

HO: That is right. That is right, Dr. Drew. And, back to his judgment issue. I feel like when you see all of these different doctors notes over

his house, the different prescriptions, it is because to an extent he may have been kind of doctor shopping. He was not sticking to just one doctor.

PINSKY: And, by the way, just as reasonable as the psychiatric and as more significant than psychological issues, he may have had a neurological

issue.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: He may have had some neurodegenerative disease that was actually affecting his vision or affecting his ability to think or making him

psychotic. I mean there are a lot of neurodegenerative diseases that are very bizarre and very Prodine. They looked like psychiatric conditions.

Now, the first time I heard about this case -- and Vanessa, I am going to ask you if we are making this clear enough for a layperson to understand.

The first time I heard about this case, when people jumped to a psychological problem, I was disturbed.

The first thing you jump to always before you assume there is a psychiatric or a psychological explanation is medical. You rule out the medical. They

have still not really done that.

They may never be able to really, because this guy did not -- maybe did not go for the full evaluations. It will be interesting to see if anybody is

thinking that way. But, it is not psychological. It is at least psychiatric. Is that sensible to you, Vanessa?

BARNETT: Because I have been in your world for quite some time, I believe so.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: OK.

BARNETT: But, when I am looking at Twitter, I see people saying things like, "This man is a mass murderer." "This man is a terrorist." This man

is crazy in the head." This man got away with murder." I see things like that. And, so, I do not think it is that clear for people who are not,

again, in the Dr. Drew world. That is all I am saying.

PINSKY: All right. OK. Let me calm and ask Judy to help me help people understand that none of those things are wrong, by the way.

HO: No.

[21:20:04] PINSKY: He is a mass murderer. He did some terrible things, but there may be a neurobiological explanation for why that happened.

And, it is the system that let this guy break down to the point that he became the mass murderer. Judy, is that about right?

HO: I totally agree with you, Dr. Drew. And, I think you are right here that the system has really failed everybody in this situation.

PINSKY: Everybody.

HO: I really hope that they can utilize this as a lesson, a horrible lesson, but to able to revamp their system in a way where, one, people can

actually talk about it if there are medical and psychiatric illnesses and, two, that there is some kind of upkeep for these individuals. That they do

not feel like they will lose their job and their entire lives just because they disclose that they might be going through a difficult time. You know,

that is part of the problem.

PINSKY: Yes. And, I think there is some other stuff to learn here, which is that if they disclose symptoms that suggest they should lose their job,

it is because they should, because it protects them and the public.

And, if they do not need to lose their job, they should be well within their rights to get treatment, like most people. And, the vast, vast

majority of these conditions are going to be quite treatable. I mean you can return these guys to work.

Listen, they get older, too. We have to monitor that. We get brain disorder as we get older and they may not realize it. That is all needs to

be monitored and it needs to be open.

The rights of the individual are important, but they cannot trump the rest of us. We have gone way too far. We even here have this -- there they

clearly have. And, that is a great example of where we do not want to go.

Next, an infant`s death is linked to a paternity episode of the "Maury" show. I have got details.

And, later, this is unbelievable. A husband suspects his wife has been cheating, so he super glued her genitalia. That is right, back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:25:41] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Tragedy strikes when a young couple about to appear on the "Maury" show discovers their baby daughter is

unconscious and not breathing. According to reports, they were scheduled to be on an episode that would reveal their 8-month-old`s biological father

using DNA.

According to police, the 27-year-old mother said she found the baby on a pillow lodged between the bed and the wall. She claimed the baby must have

fallen off the bed during the night. First responders tried to revive the infant, but she later died.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with our Behavior Bureau, Vanessa, Judy and Loni. And, Vanessa, there is some more details about what was reportedly going on in

that motel room. Tell me.

BARNETT: Yes. Actually, you may have noticed in the video there, there was a fourth person. That is, actually, the couple`s 2-year-old child. I

believe a boy. They have a 2-year-old together. And, he was in the bed with the mother.

And, then, the father was in a completely separate bed. And, police say when they showed up that the room was messy and that they were, quote, "on

the fence on whether or not there was child endangerment involved" and that they are exploring all avenues right now.

PINSKY: I heard there were food containers, beer and alcohol around the room.

BARNETT: Right. Liquor.

PINSKY: But, you know, again, that does not -- child endangerment necessarily make. I guess what I would be worried about here is whether or

not this was their usual practice to keep the kids in the bed with them.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: And, for Judy, you are siding with me here. That is one of the concerns, that people roll over on their babies --

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: People with the babies get stuck between the bed and the wall. -- this is the great -- Forget the talk show part, this is a great opportunity

to have that debate as well, Judy.

HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. You know, infants who sleep in the same bed as their parents are five times as likely to suffer from sudden infant

death syndrome. And, there is a lot of different types of things that the mom or dad could expose a child`s to when they are sleeping together.

So, actually, there has been tons of initiatives to try to educate everybody in the world about this and to actually urge them at least in the

first six months to a year to put them in a separate bed because of these problems.

PINSKY: And, to be fair, Vanessa, they are in a hotel room. They are about to be on a talk show. I mean they may not have had that option.

BARNETT: Right.

PINSKY: I understand that.

BARNETT: You do not have this random crib with you. And, I know many mothers that support co-sleeping and find that they have greater bonds with

their children. And, there is a safe-- I believe there are safe ways to co-sleep.

HO: No.

BARNETT: I know a lot of mothers in this whole mother world that is actually doing it --

PINSKY: Judy, I think Vanessa co-sleeps. I think Vanessa --

HO: I know.

PINSKY: I think she is.

BARNETT: I am not even a co-sleeper. I would be very honest. I did not co-sleep with my child. I chose not to co-sleep with my child because of

my own personal feelings --

COOMBS: I did.

PINSKY: Loni did.

BARNETT: -- but I know it has been done safely. And, I will say if those parents were drunk and they were drinking and there was alcohol in the

room, no you should not have a baby in the bed with you. But, you also should not have open cans of beer and alcohol in the room either.

HO: But in general, Vanessa, you should not be having a baby in bed with you when they are only 8-months-old. That is just what the safety

practices are. And, bond or no bond, if the significant bond --

BARNETT: In a hotel room?

HO: Absolutely. I know mothers who actually carry little cribs with them and travel cribs that their baby sleeps in, a travel crib.

COOMBS: Yes.

HO: That is the issue that they can address even when they are traveling.

COOMBS: Yes, but look --

PINSKY: Loni, you want to defend it? Go ahead.

COOMBS: Yes. Yes, I mean I know that all studies are out there now, Judy. And, I recognize that, you know, especially with SIDS in the eye so much,

people are more aware of it.

Look, when I had my son, I was going through a divorce. I was exhausted. I decided because I was breastfeeding him all throughout the night, I put

him in bed with me. I knew it was a little, you know --

PINSKY: Loni, you got a pass. You got a pass.

COOMBS: Yes. Well --

PINSKY: You were trying to survive.

COOMBS: Yes, exactly.

PINSKY: We understand that. I get it.

BARNETT: Everyone has a --

COOMBS: We do not know the circumstances around this situation. We know they are in a hotel in a foreign place, but honestly with the alcohol

there, that to me puts up the red flags of, "Wait a minute, why are you mixing the alcohol and diminishing your judgment when you have these two

young children with you."

PINSKY: Yes. Right. You are right and that may be the bigger story. I mean there really three stories here for me. One is that the -- the issue

of alcohol around kid, the other is the co-sleep and the other is what about talk shows?

What is going on, on talk shows during daytime right now? And, by the way, speaking of talk shows, did you three get on the phone today and decide to

wear red smocks?

(LAUGHING)

HO: Smocks?

PINSKY: I cannot stop thinking about this.

HO: Smocks?

PINSKY: The way it is going crazy about it. I do not know. I just --

HO: These are elegant shirts and dresses.

PINSKY: They are beautiful. I will grant you that, but they are red and they are in the exact same color of red. So, I do not know about you guys.

[21:30:00] All right, now, I am going to show you, apparently, what this couple was scheduled to do a paternity test on Maury. And, if there is

anyone out there who has not seen how this goes, this is not the couple if question, but here is something from NBC Universal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITNEY: I cheated on my ex with Cameron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Whitney says the baby is his.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITNEY: Today, we will find out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCE R: Cameron demands the DNA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAMERON: She gets around quite a bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: The results are in.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: And, this is not the first death to be associated with a daytime talk show. In 1995 a man was killed after revealing a secret crush -- a

male crush to a neighbor. In 2002, Jerry Springer guest was convicted of murdering his ex-wife who had been on the show with him.

There was the famous Jenny Jones case as well long time ago. But, my concern, Judy, is that what are we doing here to protect people that

participated in these things. And, Judy, I am sorry. I am going to pass to you. I am going to Loni, and ask, do they have liabilities? I think I

am they sign away most of the privileges.

COOMBS: Oh boy! They give them a long contract. And, people will sign anything to get on T.V., Dr. Drew. I mean they sign away all their rights.

And, you know, they put long lists of possibilities of things that could happen on the show.

You know, just to cover their butts for any possible outcome. And, the people sign it because they want to go on the T.V. show and so the shows

are covered. You rarely see a show being held liable for something that happens.

PINSKY: They can take civil action if they want to, right?

COOMBS: They can always try. But you know when you sign that contract, you know, you are saying, I am agreeing to it. I am consenting.

PINSKY: Wow! Judy, go ahead? I am sorry. I will let you talk now.

HO: No worries, Dr. Drew. I was just thinking about how shows like this actually prey on the people who need more protection than anyone else.

These tend to be people who are uneducated and might need some money, might need the T.V. angle a little bit more than somebody else. I am just saying

that there are these people who tend to go on these shows, and that is sort of their pull for these individuals.

PINSKY: But, it is not just that, though, Judy. If it were just that, I would feel as though -- all right. And, it is -- The problem is, daytime

talk show is entertainment, right? It is meant to be entertained. And, people are trying to educate. I understand that. They are not just -- you

know, it is not sinister intent here, but they are trying to entertain.

And, unfortunately, I think the public starts to think that they are watching something akin to treatment or appropriate interpersonal behavior.

Trust me, there is nothing on daytime that would go down as treatment. Anybody? Judy, is there anything you would think of on daytime that is

treatment? No.

HO: Dear God, no.

PINSKY: We will get more into this in a second.

And, later, a man suspects his wife is cheating with her uncle, so he super glues her genitals. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:36:54] UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Want to appear on "Maury" Show?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Are you involved in family drama and want to be on our show?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Is your husband a serial cheater?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Do you have a family mystery that can be solved with a DNA test? Be a guest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Vanessa, Judy and Loni. Now, if you want to be a guest on daytime television talk shows? You need drama. You need conflict.

That is what people want -- listen, you want to blame somebody? Blame us for watching this stuff.

If you do not like what they put on television, stop watching it. Now, once you book a show, you sign a release. And, according to a source, once

show`s release comes with at least 20 possible surprises that could unfold during taping that, Loni, they exonerate themselves from. Is that about

right.

COOMBS: Yes. Exactly. They say, this could happen. This could happen. They all sound outlandish. The guy goes, "I want to be on the show." They

sign it away, you know, and then crazy things happen on the show. And, they have no recourse.

PINSKY: Vanessa, do you think anything you see on daytime television is anything like somebody we call treatment?

BARNETT: No.

PINSKY: OK.

BARNETT: It is produced entertainment. We have to --

PINSKY: OK. So, you are behind the curtain here with the rest of us. So, why do people think that? Why do people think it is some sort of treatment

--

BARNETT: I do not even know if people, nowadays, really think it is treatment. I think the people go on because they want their 15 minutes of

fame and other people watch because it is outlandish. You have people, it is like baby daddy lottery like, "Oh, is it him? Is it him? Is it him?"

It is outrageous. And, then you have people running off stage, throwing their bodies on the floor, rolling around when it is not the baby`s daddy

they want. It is pure entertainment. And, I pray that no one really thinks this as a treatment.

PINSKY: Well, I am not talking -- I do not think anybody would mistake this show for treatment. I think they might mistake it for how to handle

interpersonal conflict, which is I cannot imagine a worse way to do it.

But, there are other shows that sort of under the guise of treatment. I do not think they claim to be doing treatment at all. I am really not.

Again, but it is the consumer seems to talk about it as treatment.

I know -- Like for instance, I host a teen mom episode thing. I just did another one this weekend. You know, I was reading some of the Twitter

action. They are like, "Why do not you do this?" Why do not you do that?" I am like, "Because it is a talk show, and we are just talking about their

lives. This is not treatment. It is a talk show."

And, how can people -- And I guess people get maybe confused with me because I did another show where I was doing treatment and it was a

documentary of treatment. But, then they put that together in such a way that you do not see much of the treatment.

Because treatment does not do well on television. It is not very interesting. Real treatment. Loni, you kind of get what I am saying?

COOMBS: Yes. And, honestly, Dr. Drew, I am kind of like with Vanessa. I think half the time some of this is so dramatic and so over the top. So, I

am thinking, "Is this scripted? Is this made up?" You know?

I mean I am thinking the furthest from it being real treatment as far as I am thinking -- they are just like throwing this together and everybody is

kind of making things up as they go along.

PINSKY: Judy, you thoughts?

HO: Well, I think, you know, even a critically acclaimed show like "In Treatment," which is a produced treatment process --

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: -- did not do that well with consumers.

PINSKY: Right.

COOMBS: Yes.

HO: So, clearly, as you were saying before, real treatment does not do well on television. I think what we have here in the daytime television

arena, though, is really people trying to see -- in a way it is a downward comparison, right, Dr. Drew?

That you see some people with really big problems and you kind of feel better about your life. And, it is actually sometimes I actually hear

that, that is why people watch daytime television.

PINSKY: OK. Well --

HO: They actually feel better about themselves. And, that is horrible.

[21:40:05] PINSKY: I think that Schadenfreude is not one of the most loftiest of the human instinct. Schadenfreude is what exactly what Judy is

talking about; when you somebody else suffering or having a worse situation and it makes you feel good.

It is not natural. It is not our loftiest human characteristic. I am just saying. But, I think more than Schadenfreude -- well, maybe not more, but

we also like intensity and conflict. I mean after all, what is drama? What is Shakespeare? What is great plays?

They are sick people behaving sick. That is really what it is. I mean -- she killed the kids or whatever. I mean these are sick people doing

intense, crazy things. It has always been that way.

And, we have found a way to sort of tell it -- the every man`s story of this. It is troubling. I think we have to examine it, look at it. Think

about it when we watch it. It is certainly not going away soon.

Next, a woman claims she can never have sex again because of her husband. She cheated. He poured super glue into her genitalia. I want to talk

about that. I want to talk about female genital mutilation and what is up with men that they would ever do something like this. And, what is up with

women when they do their mutilating actions? Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:45:35] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A woman says she has been permanently scarred by her husband who put super glue on her vagina. She

claims he thought she was cheating with her own uncle. She says she was forced to endure abuse while he threatened her with a machete. She would

like to press charges but her husband has never been caught.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Wow. Back with Vanessa, Judy, Loni and our "Seriously?" story. One that would be hard to believe unless it were in fact true. A woman

says her husband accused her of cheating and then poured super glue on her genitalia.

I had not heard the business, Judy, about the machete. I mean no wonder she cheated. She was probably trying to get away from the guy. But --

Does anybody have questions about -- because I know some of our Twitter followers did, a question about what is that likely to do to tissue, the

Super Glue in the vagina. You guys worried about that one? You guys are quiet --

(LAUGHING)

HO: We do not even want to think about it.

PINSKY: I know -- I just found out how to silence you guys. This is fantastic.

HO: Dr. Drew, you have a panel of women. And, we are trying to imagine what would happened if this happened to our lady parts.

PINSKY: Yes. It is not good. It is not good.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: It can cause a very intense like irritation. It can erode tissue. It can -- obviously, things can get sticky and tear apart.

HO: Oh my gosh.

PINSKY: It can cause infection after the tissue is damaged there. I mean there is a lot -- my wife actually put -- she thought she had an eye

dropper, but she had a super glue. She put it right into her eye. People do that.

And, then she did make the worse move. She pulled her eyelid away from the eye and so the glue hardened on the inner surface of the lid. And, then

she slipped and the eyelid sealed shut. And, now she was eroding, scraping off her cornea every time she moved her eyes.

That needed a surgery right away, an ophthalmological emergency. And, so, these things can have sort of untoward consequences that can go well beyond

just the irritation and the glue and all this stuff. It can be really devastating at times.

Now, Judy, my question though is, what is up with men? I mean what planet do they think -- it occurs to me that this is really brings up the bigger

issue of female genital mutilation. That cultural practice has to come from somewhere.

And, guess where it comes from. It comes from screwball men who have these sorts of impulses. Now, it may feedback on the population and become sort

of a cultural norm.

But, initially, it got to come from somewhere. It come from men. I mean women are not going to choose to do this. Trust me. So, what do you think

it is about men that they would ever think about this sort of thing?

HO: Well, some of it is control and some of it is a way for them to make sure that their women are up to standard. They are up to par.

PINSKY: What? What?

HO: OK? This is, actually, how some of these cultural practices have developed. This is the way to present that you have raise a girl right,

that she is somehow clean and ready to wed. It is like a document, like a driver`s license you present so that you can drive. This is how some of it

have developed.

PINSKY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. No, no. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept that.

HO: That is the truth.

PINSKY: Then why do not we have a certification process? Why do we have to sew her vagina shut? That is craziness. Loni, you are nodding your

head. It is like that is how it is done. No, that is too rational. It is an irrationally impulse. I cannot accept it. It has that kind of a linear

quality to it.

COOMBS: Well, Dr. Drew -- I mean they have all sorts of different explanations, excuses. Some of the regions believe that the women`s

clitoris will actually end up outgrowing the male genitalia. So, it has to be cut off.

PINSKY: OK. OK. But, wait, wait, wait --

COOMBS: Before that happens.

PINSKY: But hang on. That makes sense to me.

COOMBS: OK.

PINSKY: So, they are deeply threatened by female sexuality.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: I mean that goes right to the core of how men are threatened.

HO: Right.

COOMBS: Right.

PINSKY: I mean that is who has the bigger fouls here --

COOMBS: And, another big part of it is, I think they think it will take away from the men`s sexual pleasure.

PINSKY: What?

HO: Yes.

COOMBS: A lot of the female mutilation is to supposedly enhance the male`s sexual pleasure.

PINSKY: No. I do not think so. I do not buy that. I do not buy that.

HO: That is true.

COOMBS: Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: What?

HO: It might be uneducated in that, but that is one of the absided reasons for these cultural practices. As you mentioned, Dr. Drew, they do then

feedback so that these women then defend these sexual practices because they do not want to be shunned from the culture. They want to still be

part of society and they have to abide by the cultural norm.

PINSKY: Vanessa, Vanessa, help me. What is behind that stunned expression, you got?

BARNETT: Well, honestly when I initially read the story, that was not my first thought. I am familiar with genital mutilation. I am familiar with

that practice. And, I have heard of it before.

But, this to me was as, you know, women -- they cut off the man`s member because he is doing something that he is not supposed to do with that

member. So, to me, I thought he was saying, "You used this body part, the way I did not want you to. So, you now have to be punished with that body

part."

[21:50:08] And, you know, women -- I have heard women say they want to throw hot grits on their man`s privates because they are cheating or hot

grits or anything hot just to get them where it really hurts. And, so that was not my first thought. I am sure there is that undertone there --

PINSKY: I agree with you. I agree with you. But I think women tend do this for revenge almost exclusively. Would not you guys say? While, men

are so threatened by female sexuality generally that, yes, it could become a retribution. But it also becomes just a practice to protect them from

the dangers of female sexuality. Does not kind of feel like that?

HO: Maybe, Dr. Drew. But, I think individually, the reasons can differ. Like for this man, he may have been so angry that his prefrontal cortex is

just not able to make a good decision and do something where he is not actually punishing himself in the process.

PINSKY: Well, so what she is talking about -- there is no doubt about that. I just happen to have my brain handy, Judy.

HO: It is perfect.

PINSKY: The prefrontal cortex is part of the brain up here, which is where our executive function is, where we contain impulses. That guy had very

little going on up here. It was all down in the amygdala in the more primitive centers down in this region here.

And, I do not know. I am trying to make sense of it, but I cannot. And, I wonder why -- after the break, let us talk about why -- when women do this

to men, there is a little bit -- well, there is more comradeship among women.

A little more of congratulatory behavior sometimes. And, I do not see men behaving that way at all, thankfully. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:55:42] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A woman says her jealous husband punished her by putting super glue on her vagina. She claims he accused

her of cheating and poured glue on her genitals while threatening her with a machete. She is permanently scarred and her husband has never been

caught.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa, Judy and Loni. We are talking about this woman who claims the husband super glued her genitalia because he believed

she was cheating. First of all, I am a little surprised at you guys.

I thought I would have a bunch of banshees on my hands here. I thought you would be a completely -- I thought you would be completely in sense by this

story. I cannot stand it and you guys are very calm about this.

BARNETT: It is disgusting. No, no, no.

PINSKY: So, please, Vanessa, you seem way too mature about this.

BARNETT: No. I am disgusted. No, I do not know what you are confusing my emotion for. When speaking about genital mutilation, it is a very serious

topic. And, it is a complex topic. But when you are talking abuot --

PINSKY: No. I do not think it is complex. I do not think it is complex. I am sorry to interrupt, but I do not think it is complex. I think it is

primitive. I think it is reprehensible. I think it is absolutely barbaric.

I mean everything about it -- to call it complex is to give if way too much credence. And I think even if it is culturally indoctrinated, it is no

different than this guy pouring super glue on his wife`s vagina.

BARNETT: For what is a stupid reason. Can we talk about the reason as well? He thinks his wife is cheating with her own uncle. I think the

whole story is asinine and kind of crazy. We do not know why this man took those kind of measures and then he disappears. I do not think she has seen

him for two years now.

PINSKY: All right, and then Judy has a Monalisa`s smile. Why?

(LAUGHING)

HO: Dr. Drew, I do not even know where to start with this.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: Let us just start with the fact that if this man was actually planning on having sex with his own wife again, he is actually punishing himself.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

HO: Like super gluing her lady part together.

PINSKY: Yes, he is.

HO: Clearly, he is not making good decisions here. Clearly, this is not a cultural issue. He cannot back up his actions by saying that this is

genital mutilation in some country, right?

PINSKY: No, no, no. No, I am not saying that. But, I am saying that as crazy as his actions are, they are no different that people that engaged in

genital mutilation.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: That is my point.

HO: There is going to be a justification process on either person`s part, right?

PINSKY: Right.

HO: Whether is this mine or somebody will practice it cultural --

PINSKY: Yes. It is -- but it is an insane behavior no matter how you think about it.

HO: Yes, it is.

PINSKY: Loni, you know what I am getting at it?

COOMBS: Yes. Yes. But, Dr. Drew, it is kind of like, you know, the people who kill their wives when they say, "I am filling a divorce to you."

If in his mind, she was cheating, it is like, "OK, if you are going to cheat, no one is going to have you sexually. I am going to ruin you

forever for me, for everyone else."

PINSKY: Right. Right.

COOMBS: And, then it is done.

HO: Done.

PINSKY: Right.

COOMBS: That is what he is thinking.

PINSKY: So -- that is the -- Judy we have talked report on this show many times, the narcissistic, aggressive, you know, grandiose male.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: All right, I get that. But, still, we have practices that we let these guys establish. I am just saying. The other thing is and before the

break, I asked you guys, why do you think or do we, women react differently when they see a woman mutilate a male genitalia with justification, mind

you. You guys get behind that a little bit. That becomes, you go girl, as opposed to the same outrage I am expressing here.

(LAUGHING)

HO: I do not agree with that, Dr. Drew. I think women, actually, have been shown embraced to actually light up more with empathy even when

somebody deserves punishment. So, actually, males are the ones who tend to not have as much empathy when they see somebody who deserves to be

punished. The kind of get some glee from that, the reward system lights up.

PINSKY: Well, yes.

BARNETT: I disagree. I disagree. When a girl chops off a man`s penis, I want her to bronze it and put it on her --

HO: What?

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

BARNETT: Because I know she took it off for a reason. A girl does not do that unless there is a real reason.

PINSKY: No, no. Thank you. Vanessa, thank you for being honest. Thank you. I know the other two are feeling the same way. I saw the little

smirk on Loni`s face. I know. I know.

(LAUGHING)

COOMBS: Yes. Yes. I mean it is true. Even in this country, things are not equal. Men still get paid more. They still have more leadership

positions, but when it comes to private parts, those are the great equalizers. And, men are just as vulnerable as women are.

PINSKY: No, no. I heard you say -- that is where you get yours. You get a bigger salary but we are going to reserve this to -- we are going to take

that from you if we feel like it and we will all get behind that girl.

Now, listen -- we are being funny. But there is something in it. There is some kind of weird impulses in this stuff. Look at cultural practices.

They come from human impulses. They are not necessarily our best impulses. DVR us and then you can watch us any time. We have lovely conversations

like this. Watch it again. And "Forensic Files" begins following this show and it starts right now.

[22:00:08]

END