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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

NSA Gate Rammed at Fort Meade; Learning More About the Germanwings Crash; Obama Dedicates the Kennedy Institute. Aired 12- 12:30p ET

Aired March 30, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[12:00:15] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

And we do begin with breaking news at this hour. At the NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, two men tried to ram the main gate outside of the National Security Agency. One of those men shot and killed on the spot by the police. Another seriously injured. I want to bring in CNN's justice correspondent Evan Perez and CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes.

Evan, you've been working the story. What more do we know at this hour?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, this is a very strange one. We know that the NSA police shot and killed one man and injured a second when they believed these two in a vehicle tried to ram one of the outer perimeter entrances for the NSA complex there at Fort Meade. The two men were dressed as women. They were in drag. So that's one of the stranger details to come out of law enforcement officials on this one.

They don't know what intent they had. The FBI is now on the scene and they're running this investigation. They don't believe it's terrorism related, but everybody's scratching their heads to try to figure out what exactly was on the mind of these two -- these two people trying to get into one of the most secure complexes in this capital region. And one which, you know, there's plenty of warning as to what you're entering. So it's not clear whether they entered the complex by mistake, the compound by mistake, or whether this was intentional.

We do know that police found drugs in the car. We don't know how much of it and we don't know what kind. But, again, that's something that's playing into this investigation. The FBI is looking at all possibilities here. But what we do know, they don't believe is that it is terrorism, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Stand by, Evan, for a moment.

Tom Fuentes, if I could bring you in on that. This is the first I'm hearing of this news that these two men were apparently dressed as women and there were drugs in the car. What do you make of this? TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I make what I kind of

thought earlier is that these would not be dedicated terrorists because most terrorists wouldn't be that stupid to think you could penetrate NSA headquarters by vehicle. And in this case, they didn't get past the first perimeter because having Anne Arundel County Police there means that they were still on the public streets or just coming off the public street entering the compound. So the local police patrol the exterior streets that are public streets. NSA has its own police handling security inside. And they're not going to let anybody in. And if you try to crash a barricade, you're going to be shot dead, or they're going to try to shoot you dead.

BANFIELD: And not only that, look at the police vehicle on the screen as well. It appears to have been damaged perhaps as an attempt prior to the shots being fired to mitigate whatever was about to happen.

By the way, I want the both of you just to stand by for a moment. We're getting word now the NSA is planning a live news conference. The cameras are set up. Local reporters getting ready as well. We're not exactly sure who at the NSA is going to come out and brief the press, but perhaps we'll get further details, further to your details, Evan Perez. Really remarkable, dressed as women, drugs found in the vehicle, but yet no terror link is suspected at this time.

Tom Fuentes, Evan Perez, thank you for that. We'll watch this live picture from Fort Meade, Maryland. We'll bring it to you just as soon as that begins.

In the meantime, another very big story that we're following. Official public confirmation that Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz had, at one time, been treated for suicidal tendencies. In a statement you may have seen live here on CNN, the Dusseldorf prosecutor said it was years ago, before Lubitz got his pilot's license, before he was hired by Germanwings, and long before this, before ditching his Airbus into the southern French Alps murdering all 150 people on board that aircraft. The prosecutor says there is no recent evidence of psychosis, nor of physical illness concerning Lubitz's eyesight or anything else for that matter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPH KUMPA, DUSSELDORF PUBLIC PROSECUTOR: We don't have any documentation that says that regarding his sight any problems that he might have had or might have assumed to have. There isn't any documentation that says that this is caused by an organic illness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Over the weekend, the German newspaper "Bild" (ph) was publishing a virtually unprecedented leak, the transcripts of Flight 9525's cockpit voice recordings. It covers 10 or more minutes of sheer terror as the captain and the passengers begin to realize what's happening on that plane. What's about to happen and then, of course, their own utter helplessness to stop anything from continuing.

[12:05:06] The flight took off at about 10:00 a.m. local time last Tuesday. And by 10:27, it was at cruising altitude of 38,000 feet. According to the transcripts, the captain, Patrick Sondenheimer, asks First Officer Lubitz to prepare the landing. And afterward, Lubitz says, "you can go now." They had discussed before taking off that that captain had not been able to go to the bathroom when they were in Barcelona and that he would need to do so while they were in flight. So two minutes after he says, "you can go now," the ground radar detects the plane starting to drop.

And at exactly 10:32, the controllers try to make voice contact, but, unfortunately, they get absolutely no answer from that cockpit. At about the same time, that's when an alarm goes off in the cockpit. And soon after that, that's when you start to hear a loud bang on the cockpit door. That's when you also begin hearing the captain screaming, "for God's sake, open the door!"

Passengers, at that point, can be heard screaming in the background. At 10:35, loud metallic bangs on the cockpit door. And by now that plane has fallen to 15,000 feet. Ninety seconds later, a minute and a half later, another cockpit alarm goes off. The pilot screams, "open the damn door!" At 10:40, sounds that are being interpreted as the plane's right wing possibly scraping by a mountaintop and more screams heard from the passengers. And then what is so foreboding, utter silence.

This is where I bring in CNN's Fred Pleitgen, who is in Cologne, Germany.

I don't know what to make of this because the only thing that stands out to me is the length of time that that pilot and all of those passengers were absolutely terrorized. It was not a short amount of time. It was closer to about eight or nine minutes. But what about the notion of this being a premeditated act, Fred? Is this something that the investigators are drilling in on now that they have this time line?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they certainly will be. I mean it's certainly something that they'll be looking at. I mean, on the one hand, you have to see the formal way that this investigation is looking -- is going forward, Ashleigh. And so far the French prosecutor, for his part, says that he's still treating this as a manslaughter case. However, the Germans have formed a special police commission, and that is one known as a murder commission here in Germany. And so, therefore, it seems as though at least the investigative part of it does certainly have the propensity to go into being a murder investigation.

Now, the big question, as you say, is whether or not this might have been premeditated. And there you really have to look at the transcript or at least the part that appears to have been leaked. Again, we can't independently verify its authenticity, but it does seem to offer some very interesting clues.

What it gives the impression is that Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot who flew his jet into that mountainside killing those 150 people, apparently from the very get-go, from even before that flight took off, was trying to get his captain to leave the cockpit. It was interesting because as they were making the flight preparations, it seemed as though they were a little bit behind schedule, about 20 minutes. The captain tells his co-pilot that he forgot to go to bathroom in Barcelona. And so Lubitz immediately says, well, you can go any time. Don't worry.

Then what happens is, the jet takes off. They get to cruising altitude. And once they reach cruising altitude, immediately again Lubitz tells his captain, don't worry, you can go now. And that is when the captain pushes his seat back and says, you have control of the aircraft, and leaves the cockpit.

Now, whether or not Lubitz had been setting this up for a long time, whether or not he might have been waiting for a flight where he would be alone in the cockpit is, of course, something that is still very much under investigation. There are still many things that we don't know. But certainly there are indications that he might have actively been trying to get his captain to get out of that cockpit to then crash that plane into the mountain, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right. Fled Pleitgen, thank you for that.

As he continues to investigate what the prosecutor is releasing and all of the other issues regarding this crash, this mass murder, we're learning so much more about the mental state of that co-pilot, including the fact that he was once suicidal. So did he still have a pilot's license even though these things were developing in the shadows? Of course he did. But why? And can that be prevented in the future?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:13:10] BANFIELD: We're trying to process the latest confirmed pieces of evidence in the deliberate crash of Germanwings Flight 9525 in some of the most difficult terrain in Europe. Joining me here in New York are best-selling author and psychologist Gail Saltz, Boeing 777 captain and commentator Les Abend, and aviation attorney Justin Green. And from Charleston, South Carolina, we're joined by CNN aviation analyst and former DOT inspector general Mary Schiavo.

Les, if I can begin with you. This reporting now that, if this time line is to be believed, this leaked transcript of the time line, the co-pilot saying to the pilot upon reaching cruising altitude, you can go now. As a pilot, did that stick out to you at all as unusual?

LES ABEND, BOEING 777 CAPTAIN: You know, this is the -- first of all, I -- this is sacred ground, that cockpit voice recorder. This should -- never should have never been released, so I agree with the investigation team about this. This is awful stuff. Awful for the family.

But in answer to your question, yes, it sounded like a routine type of little discussion. You know, they probably had a quick turnaround. You know, it's time -- it's typical just to kind of let's get to -- let's get the airplane out of here.

BANFIELD: It didn't seem like he was prodding the captain to leave? ABEND: Well, it's possible, maybe urging him to go and wait and he was

already plotting this in his mind. It's certainly possible. But this is a routine situation for us to go behind the cockpit door and just go to the bathroom real quick, come back, do our duties, and, you know, it's just one of those things.

BANFIELD: Gail, I want to bring you into this conversation because one of the first things I thought of when I heard this time line, I was hoping, you know, I was praying that those passengers didn't know much until maybe a minute or two prior. But it turns out that screaming was heard upwards of eight minutes. And all I could think of was what it was like for each and every one of them, the mother holding the baby -- there were two babies on board, the teenagers, the students, the elderly. Does -- I can't even begin to ask this question. Is it processed differently when this is happening? What on earth would they be going through, each of them as individuals and as a collective?

[12:15:09] GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, that's very hard to know because both of those things apply. Collectively, it's normal to have fear. I mean you are facing potentially a death-defying situation. And so it would be appropriate, there's nothing pathologic about that, to have a normal, panicked, terror/fear response and yet everybody brings their own bit of baggage to individual responses. So if you've had past trauma, you know, it may have a replay of that. If you have particular worries or fears about flying, it would evoke that. And some people are --

BANFIELD: Is there strength in the collective? Is there anything that can mitigate the horrors that we're thinking these people went through?

SALTZ: You know, that's very difficult to say. I mean some people are unusually resilient. And some people have the ability to dissociate, which normally is not a good thing. But in this case, may be a good thing in the sense that you may sort of feel a little out of body in this experience and therefore not be feeling the immediate kind of terror.

BANFIELD: Justin, you and I spoke last week -- and this is a very fast-evolving story in terms of the details, this timeline, perhaps the mensrea (ph) that went into what this co-pilot did, maybe that he was premeditated in his actions, also that there are these depressive issues he had in his past. Last week you said the uglier this gets for this individual and his act, strangely enough, the better it is legally speaking for the airline. But does that metric change at all given what we've learned just over the last three, four days?

JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: Well, I think in a major way because what we just learned I think today is that he had a major suicidal depressive period before he was hired, before the airline brought him into the cockpit. And I think that has to be looked at in a really serious manner. Les and I we were talking at the break, he had a period in training that he was not able to continue training, presumably because of these issues. And I've got to tell you, when I was in the Navy flight school, if I told the C.O., hey, I'm going to take six months off because I'm having a problem in training -- BANFIELD: They'd want to know why.

GREEN: They would have given me a pack and a rifle because I wouldn't be back in flight school after that.

BANFIELD: All right. But they might not have known, right?

SALTZ: But --

BANFIELD: Quickly.

SALTZ: And that's not necessarily right because people can have depressions, and they can even be suicidal (INAUDIBLE) --

BANFIELD: But the airline has a right to know.

SALTZ: They have a right to know. But it --

BANFIELD: If I'm on board, I'm a passenger, I have the right to know that the airline has a right to know.

SALTZ: Well, but here's the problem, it -- you can be fully functional afterwards and we're going to stigmatize and tell people that they can never fly again for a past reason years ago, then you're going to have people keeping it a secret.

BANFIELD: Understanding that --

GREEN: But it's -- but it's also -- it's a different -- there's different levels. So I think one of the greatest things is that nowadays we're really seeing pilots getting treatment and being able to fly with depression. But then you have this guy, who I think is on the extreme level who has suicidal tendencies in his background, and he may have been screened out.

BANFIELD: Ah --

ABEND: That should have been made public. (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: And, Mary Schiavo, I'm going to get you to weigh in on something when we come back from the break.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Sure.

BANFIELD: There's a lot of different questions, and certainly about what all this means to the investigation, if anything at all. So, all of you, thank you for that.

I've got a live incident coming up after the break. Actually, this is really a fascinating moment. President Obama's in Boston right now. And he is -- are we going to take a break or can I go to this now?

All right. So this is terrific. Really changing gears here. This is a dedication to the Kennedy Institute. And it's not Washington. Let me take down that banner up there if I can. The president has traveled with a whole host of VIPs to dedicate the Kennedy Center (sic). Let's listen.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So enjoy today because we've got to get back to work.

Distinguished guests, fellow citizens, in 1958, Ted Kennedy was a young man working to re-elect his brother, Jack, to the United States Senate. On election night, the two toasted one another. Here's to 1960, Mr. President, Ted said, if you can make it. and with his quick Irish wit, Jack returned the toast. "Here's to 1962, Senator Kennedy, if you can make it." They both made it. And today they're together again in eternal rest at Arlington.

But their legacies are as alive as ever, together right here in Boston. The John F. Kennedy Library next door is a symbol of our American idealism. The Edward M. Kennedy Institute for the United States Senate as a living example of the hard, frustrating, never- ending but critical work required to make that idealism real. What more fitting tribute, what better testament to the life of Ted Kennedy than this place that he left for a new generation of Americans. A monument not to himself but to what we, the people, have the power to do together.

[12:20:18] Any of us who have had the privilege to serve in the Senate know that it's impossible not to share Ted's awe for the history swirling around you. An awe instilled in him by his brother, Jack.

Ted waited more than a year to deliver his first speech on the Senate floor. That's no longer the custom. It's good to see Trent and Tom Daschle here because they remember what customs were like back then. And Ted gave his speech only because he felt there was a topic, the Civil Rights Act, that demanded it. Nevertheless, he spoke with humility, aware, as he put it, that a freshman senator should be seen, not heard, should learn and not teach. Some of us, I admit, have not always heeded that lesson. But, fortunately, we had Ted to show us the ropes anyway.

And no one made the Senate come alive like Ted Kennedy. It was one of the great pleasures of my life to hear Ted Kennedy deliver one of his stem-winders on the floor. Rarely was he more animated than when he'd lead you through the living museums that were his offices. He could and he would tell you everything that there was to know about all of it.

And then there were more somber moments. I still remember the first time I pulled open the drawer of my desk. Each senator is assigned a desk, and there's a tradition of carving the names of those who had used it before, and those names in my desk included Taft and Baker, Simon, Wellstone, and Robert F. Kennedy. The Senate was a place where you instinctively pulled yourself up a little bit straighter, where you tried to act a little bit better.

Being a senator changes a person, Ted wrote in his memoirs. As Vicki said, it may take a year or two years or three years, but it always happens. It fills you with a heightened sense of purpose. That's the magic of the Senate. That's the essence of what it can be. And who but Ted Kennedy and his family, would create a full-scale replica of the Senate chamber and open it to everyone?

We live in a time of such great cynicism about all our institutions. And we are cynical about government and about Washington most of all. It's hard for our children to see in the noisy and too-often trivial pursuits of today's politics, the possibilities of our democracy, our capacity together to do big things. And this place can help change that. It can help light the fire of imagination, plant the seed of noble ambition in the minds of future generations.

Imagine a gaggle of school kids clutching tablets, turning classrooms into cloakrooms and hallways into hearing rooms, assign an issue of the day and the responsibility to solve it. Imagine their moral universe expanding as they hear about the momentous battles waged in that chamber and how they echo throughout today's society. Great questions of war and peace, the tangled bargains between north and south, federal and state, the original sins of slavery and prejudice, the unfinished battles for civil rights and opportunity and equality. Imagine the shift in their sense of what's possible.

[12:25:04] The first time they see a video of senators who look like they do. Men and women, blacks and whites, Latinos, Asian-Americans, those born to great wealth but also those born of incredibly modest means. Imagine what a child feels the first time she steps onto that floor, before she's old enough to be senator, before she's told what she can't do, before she's told who she can't talk to or work with. What she feels when she sits at one of those desks. What happens when it comes her turn to stand and speak on behalf of something she cares about and casts a vote. And have a sense of purpose.

It's maybe just not for kids. What if we all carried ourselves that way? What if our politics, our democracy, was as elevated, as purposeful as she imagines it to be right here?

Towards the end of his life, Ted reflected on how Congress has changed over time. And those who served earlier I think had those same conversations. It's a more diverse, more accurate reflection of America than it used to be, and that is a grand thing. A great achievement. But Ted grieved the loss of camaraderie and collegiality, the face-to-face interaction. I think he regretted the arguments now made to cameras instead of colleagues, directed at a narrow base instead of the body politic as a whole. The outside's influence of money and special interests and how it all leads more Americans to turn away in disgust and simply choose not to exercise their right to vote.

Now, since this is a joyous occasion, this is not the time for me to suggest a slew of new ideas for reform, although I do have some. Maybe I'll just mention one. What if we carried ourselves more like Ted Kennedy? What if we worked to follow his example a little bit harder? To his harshest critics who saw him as nothing more than a partisan lightning rod, that may sound foolish, but there are Republicans here today for a reason. They know who Ted Kennedy was. It's not because they shared Ted's ideology or his positions, but because they knew Ted as somebody who bridged the partisan divide over and over and over again with genuine effort and affection in an era when bipartisanship has become so very rare. They knew him as somebody who kept his word. They knew him as somebody

who was willing to take a half a loaf and endure the anger of his own supporters to get something done. They knew him as somebody who was not afraid. And fear so permeates our politics instead of hope. People fight to get in the Senate and then they're afraid. We fight to get these positions, and then don't want to do anything with them. And Ted understood the only point of running for office was to get something done. Not to posture. Not to sit there worrying about the next election or the polls. To take risks.

[12:29:55] He understood that differences of party or philosophy could not become barriers to cooperation or respect. He could howl an injustice on the Senate floor like a force of nature, while nervous aides tried to figure out which chart to pull up next.