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Indiana to Alter Religious Freedom Law; Flight 9525 Investigation Continues; Iranian Nuclear Talks Extended One Day. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 31, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:25] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Here's we have got. We were just talking about those Iran/U.S. negotiations. The State Department -- we're now learning the State Department saying talks with Iran over its nuclear program have made enough progress to extend until tomorrow. The deadline was midnight tonight. Difficult issues remain, they say.

More on that negotiating process and what this could mean here coming up.

But, first, the other breaking story here in this downing of the Germanwings Flight 9525, reports of just this incredible discovery here amid all of this wreckage. Just imagine this expansive region here and the debris all over the mountains in the French Alps and the fact that these investigators, these recovery crews were able to find a memory card from someone on the plane's cell phone reportedly containing video of the final moments on board that flight.

According to this German tabloid "Bild" and this French magazine "Paris match," they have listened to it. They're not publishing the video, but they have detailed what is seen. Screams are heard. Loud metallic banging is heard, as we believe the captain, as it corroborates with the transcript that was leaked as well, was trying to bang to get into the cockpit. Cries were heard of "My God," could be heard in several languages.

All of this new detail here as we're getting this new revelation about how much Lufthansa knew about the co-pilot's mental state when they hired him, that airline now admitting after further internal investigations that, yes, indeed, it knew that Andreas Lubitz had suffered depression.

Specifically, medical documents exist from the co-pilot himself with his flight school some years ago about a "previous episode of severe depression." A lot to get to.

Will Ripley joins me first from Dusseldorf, Germany.

How does this differ, Will, from what Lufthansa previously told the media? WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, we have seen so many

leaks in this investigation. This is now the latest. Apparently, the search crews in the French Alps recovered this SIM card, and they shared the contents of it with the French magazine and this German tabloid, which have -- they're the same tabloid, by the way, that did leak that cockpit voice recorder transcript.

And it details what the transcript described, these terrifying final moments of the flight, the noises, the screaming, the chaos in the back of the cabin for these 149 people who were helpless. You could hear passengers screaming "Oh, my God," as you mentioned. For anybody who's flown, you can listen to this description and you can imagine exactly what it was like on that plane.

It plays into everybody's worst fears, and it plays really into the worst nightmares of the families for these people, because initially you recall last week the prosecutor here said that, in fact, passengers were unaware until the very last moment that something was wrong. It appears that just wasn't the case, that they knew for perhaps as long as eight minutes that something was horribly wrong and they watched the ground come closer.

And there was terror in the plane that entire time, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Will Ripley with those new just gruesome details, thank you.

It's obviously evidence. This is an important part of the investigation here.

Let me bring in Dr. Randy Knipping, an aviation medical specialist and examiner with the FAA and a cognitive behavioral psychotherapist. He's also a former medical support specialist for the Transportation Safety Board. Also with me here, Les Abend, CNN aviation analyst and Boeing 777 captain.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Hi, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Hello.

But, Les, let me just begin with you. Listen, I feel like it's twofold, one, and I think you share this outrage, that the thought of family members learning about, you know, what happened in those final moments from reading it in a German tabloid is difficult to wrap your head around, number one. But, number two, this is something that's hit me is someone had the presence of mind when they realized this plane was going down to pull out a cell phone and hit record.

ABEND: It's amazing stuff.

And please let me go on record on saying this is irresponsible for this video to be released. This is a well-done, well-orchestrated, well-organized accident investigation. And that should remain within the confines of the investigation process. [15:05:03] Releasing this information doesn't help the families at

this point in time. As we discussed on break, United 93, after 9/11, they were allowed to listen privately one at a time. This is not for public consumption.

The fact that this gentleman went through the whole process of his training and screening, with the indication he had potential issues, is kind of disturbing to me. I mean, as a pilot, when I was first hired, I had to release medical information all the way back to my grandparents. It included not only physical, but had I seen -- sought out psychiatric help. I can't imagine Lufthansa would not have done that.

BALDWIN: Let me come back to that.

But, Randy, on this cell phone video, and I'm so glad Les brought up Flight 93, because that was the plane that ultimately went down in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. A lot of families were given the option. It was very private and respectful -- given the option if they wanted to hear the cockpit voice recorder and hear those final moments on that plane, they were allowed to do so.

How is that helpful for some loved ones? How may this sit with some knowing that it's out there in a tabloid?

DR. RANDY KNIPPING, AVIATION MEDICAL EXAMINER: It's hard to know whether the voice recorder would be helpful. Obviously, that depends on the individual.

But to have that video released, I completely agree with Les. That would be traumatic beyond all reason. These people are already suffering. To recognize loved ones, to hear the voices on that -- I mean, I don't even want to see this, and I'm used to seeing things like that in the -- so, I think it's horrific.

I don't think it should ever be released. I think it has the real potential of doing immeasurable harm. And it really speaks to what you mentioned earlier. What is it that it takes for someone to actually engage in behavior like this? I obviously don't know about his case individually, but I'm sure the forensic psychologists are going to look at this and say, you know, people who are depressed, they commit suicide, but they don't commit homicide.

I wouldn't be surprised if they discover that he's got a personality disorder. You know, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of the American Psychological Association divides mental illnesses into Axis I and II. And the Axis I, we're familiar with. That's your depression, your anxiety, your schizophrenia.

Axis II are personalities, narcissist, sociopath, psychopaths. And these people are capable of committing homicide if they're stressed out. And I think probably eventually it'll be shown that his mood state was probably secondary to a personality disorder.

BALDWIN: I'm so glad you pointed that out. And I feel like it would be remiss for me not to say again that a lot of people have depression. There's wonderful treatment available. And this young man obviously took it 18 steps further in deciding to take the lives of 149 people.

So let's make sure we differentiate that.

Les, to you on the point that we're now learning Lufthansa had discovered this investigation -- this goes back to when he was training. This goes back to 2009 and his flight training program. There's documentation that he had a bout with severe depression. We also know that there was a lapse in his training. I don't know if it was directly a result of that or not.

But wouldn't it be up to the airline down the road years later, Lufthansa, you, hired as a pilot, you have to show all of your medical records, seeing therapists, eye exams, you name it, it should be out there?

ABEND: It should be out there. But as we know through this discussion over this horrific event, that this is a lot of self- disclosure.

The self-disclosure aspect, remember, there's certain -- there's suicide you have to disclose if you attempted suicide, if you have sought psychiatric help, mental health professionals, along with all the physical things. But what's important to understand is that if you don't disclose -- even driver's record, this has to be disclosed. If you have issues with your driver's record, it has to be disclosed. If you don't, it's a jeopardy event. You could lose your license, have your license suspended.

There is some punitive aspect to it. But the screening process, as I mentioned before, and you and I discussed, it seems to have failed him. It really seems to have failed him.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Randy.

KNIPPING: You also have problems with diagnosing personality disorders. It's very slippery. It's very difficult. Psychologists will never make a diagnosis of a personality disorder after a single visit.

You have to really look at this person's behavior and character over a longer period of time. And it's not possible, really, to do the kind of psychological screening that I think the public would expect because, first of all, you're not going to find people like this. They can withhold and conceal.

They can be very, very charming and very treacherous and disarming. And you just don't know until the overt attack occurs. I think this is a real struggle we're going to have with coping in the future, how we identify these people.

[15:10:11] BALDWIN: Yes, Dr. Randy Knipping and Les Abend, stay with me. I have more. There have also been a lot of rumors, a lot of stories out there in

the ether about the co-pilot's love life. But let's talk facts, please. Sources are telling CNN about this young man's girlfriend and what she says about their relationship, and they are floating now this potential motive. We will share that with you.

Also just in, one of the search officials, rescue crews here raising the possibility that that second black box, that flight data recorder that hasn't been found may actually be buried. Hear how they would get it. This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:10] BALDWIN: Back to our breaking news here on this plane story.

We're hearing these reports that this memory card from a cell phone has been recovered on the side of the mountain there amid all that debris in the French Alps. And, incredibly, it's said to contain footage here of those final moments on board that Germanwings Flight 9525.

Two published accounts of this video indicate passengers in those moments are heard screaming, loud metallic bangs are heard, and they believe that it was the captain trying to get back into that locked cockpit.

Back with me now, Dr. Randy Knipping, aviation medical specialist and examiner with Transport Canada and the U.S. FAA and a cognitive behavioral psychotherapist. He's also a former medical support specialist for the Transportation Safety Board. Les Abend is back with me also, CNN aviation analyst and Boeing 777 captain.

Gentlemen, to the next bit of news that we have here. This is particularly interesting because there's been so much out there about an ex-girlfriend or a girlfriend.

Randy, here's my question for you. A source tells CNN that this co- pilot's girlfriend knew he had psychological issues, but -- quote -- "did not know the extent of the problems." Again, add that to what we're learning today. Lufthansa now admits it tracked down Lubitz's depression to an incident back when he was training in '09, before he got his pilot's license.

My question you -- and interesting you were saying earlier, maybe personality disorder. Is this the kind of thing -- and we don't know exactly what his medical records as of a week-and-a-half ago, but is this something that could be covered up?

KNIPPING: I mean, obviously, if everything depends upon self- disclosure, you can pretend to be practically everyone or anyone you want to be.

So when you have a system of self-disclosure, it's very difficult to pick up these cases. It's interesting that the girlfriend had mentioned that there were some problems, but she wasn't sure of the extent. This is also very typical of personality disorders. Like I mentioned before, they can be very charming. They can be very disarming.

But inside their head, they can have some very, very difficult ideas about what's important. Of course, you know, if you have a strong sense of identity, I am a pilot, and that's threatened, who knows what his self-esteem was like, how difficult it was for him to actually achieve his pilot standing.

It's very easy for someone like this to slip through the cracks. But there were warning flags. And you really have to ask the question, you know, who evaluated his past record, and who made the decision as to let this person fly?

BALDWIN: And that is exactly your point about this identity, I am pilot, Les. That is what we're learning, early indications of a possible motive from investigators.

And we had heard even from crews in Germany talking to people who'd known this young man for years, part of this flight club, saying all he ever wanted to do was be a pilot. Now we know, according to multiple doctors, they had deemed him recently unfit for duty. And so the motive here, that he didn't want anyone to know that he couldn't fly a plane.

ABEND: Well, obviously...

BALDWIN: Still, why do you kill 149 people? That's what I go back to every time.

ABEND: Having a little concept of the inside head of a pilot, you know, I think it was narcissistic, from the standpoint 149 people behind him was immaterial.

This is a man -- you're absolutely right -- that obviously loved to fly. This is something I always dreamed of doing since I was a little kid. And this was my only goal in life. And, you know, for him to take this to the point that he was discouraged or whatever it might have been, with reference to the jeopardy issue of losing his career, perhaps there weren't the mechanisms in place that would have allowed him the opportunity to still get paid and get treatment for whatever he had.

He may have had issues that go beyond treatment to be a pilot, but then again, if we incentivize the ability to disclose this information and say, hey, listen, if you do it, no harm, no foul, we will still pay you, let's get you help, give you incentives.

(CROSSTALK)

KNIPPING: I think, Les, I think that's an absolutely important point.

Culture is a set of attitudes, values, beliefs, and behaviors that define how you get along in a social group or an occupational group. And really the culture a lot of people would like to see in aviation is the search-and-destroy culture. Find somebody and ground them.

You know that search-and-rescue is the way to do this, because it's the same equipment, but it's a different mission. If you can identify these people early on and intervene, you can do so much to avoid the kind of outcomes that we have here.

[15:20:00] And another thing, Les, is that the reality is, is that the aviation community, in spite of this accident, does an incredible job of managing performance in the cockpit. Many, many years ago, accident investigators discovered that certain personality types were very, very poor in the cockpit during emergencies.

The personality disorders, if you call them, let's say, jerks, what they realized is that that personality renders a flight crew incapable of managing an emergency. So they developed a program called cockpit resource management training, or CRM, which was validated by Dr. Robert Helmreich NASA Ames and from the U.S. Air Force, to demonstrate if you leave your personality outside of the cockpit, your performance during critical incidents and accidents improves dramatically.

And what I would propose is that that attitude should extend beyond the cockpit. We should extend cockpit resource management training to the flight department and to the organizations, so that the notion of, you know, search-and-destroy gets shifted over to search-and-rescue and we can actually identify these people early.

BALDWIN: Dr. Randy Knipping, thank you. Les Abend, thank you as well.

Straight ahead, all of this comes as crews work tirelessly there at the scene of the crash to recover as much as they possibly can, debris, remains, trying to find that second black box. We will take you live to France, to that scene, coming up.

Also ahead, this controversial law in Indiana needs -- quote, unquote -- "a fix." Those are words straight from Indiana's governor as he faced reporters and blamed the media for -- quote -- "smearing the law." Hear what he said today, and more importantly, what he didn't, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:04] BALDWIN: All right, let's talk about Indiana again here.

Republican Governor Mike Pence speaking earlier today, vowing to fix the state's new controversial religious freedom law. At this news conference today, he said the main problem with the law is actually how it's perceived. He said that there was a perception problem. He's telling his state lawmakers to clarify and fix it and to send him new legislation this week.

Critics, though, like these protesters, see a myriad of problems. They say it's nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to discriminate and deny services to gays and lesbians. But Governor Pence strongly denies that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I believe in my heart of hearts that in one should be harassed or mistreated because of who they are, who they love, or what they believe. And I believe every Hoosier shares that conviction.

But, as I said, we have got a perception problem here because some people have a different view. And we intend to correct that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Yes, there are other states that have similar religious freedom laws, but Indiana's law stands out because it does allow a person, even a business, to cite religious beliefs as a legal defense in private disputes.

And that is even if the government is not in any way involved. Indiana's largest newspaper, "The Indianapolis Star," I talked to the editor last hour. They bluntly, boldly told the governor today in these three block words, "Fix this now."

CNN's Rosa Flores is in Indianapolis covering this for us.

And we talked about a lot of Republicans here. We're about to talk to some potential contenders in 2016, but first Democrats, how did they react to Governor Pence today?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Brooke, politics is a fascinating thing. The Democrats making it very clear since yesterday that they have one word to say, and that is repeal. They want to law repealed, but they know that they don't have the power in this legislature.

The power is in the hands of the Republicans here. What they do know is that they have the power of the message because they have the backing of so many people from across the country. Here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM LANANE (D), INDIANA SENATOR MINORITY LEADER: In one word, my reaction is "disappointing." We're still hearing all of these excuses being put out by the governor that this is a misunderstanding on the part of the press and the opponents to the bill.

But you know what? Look at the corporations, the multinational corporations. They clearly see something in this bill which is very, very toxic and very, very wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Now, here's the other thing that Democrats are saying. And that is what Republicans are not saying they say. What do I mean by that? Democrats are saying it's very simple. Why don't we pass a sexual orientation to be part of the Civil Rights Act here in Indiana, make it a protected class, Brooke? And that's where a lot of the heads butt here, because we asked the Republican leadership that question yesterday, and they said, no way, not going to happen, not now.

BALDWIN: Sounded to me Governor Pence did specifically say that that wouldn't happen here. Our Rosa Flores, thank you very much.

So, could all of what's going on with this law in Indiana present a big challenge for Republicans heading into 2016 or maybe give them some wind in their political sails? Ted Cruz, Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, Marco Rubio, all Republican presidential hopefuls, stepping into this debate, largely in support of this religious freedom act.

I have M.J. Lee with me, a political reporter for CNN.com.

And I would like to officially welcome you to CNN, M.J. Nice to have you here.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

BALDWIN: You wrote this great piece on CNN.com. And I know, when I woke up today, and I wanted to read more about this, I wanted to read about what the governor was going to say today and I want to know how these Republican contenders would have responded.

There are a couple parties they would be, I guess, supporting or alienating at stake here, whether they decided to throw in their support or not. What was at stake?

LEE: Right.

Well, the Republican candidates are finding themselves in a bit of a tricky situation. On the one hand, they want to appeal to conservative voters, evangelical leaders.