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Dr. Drew
A Teacher Is Arrested Accused Of Being Deeply In Love With An 11- Year-Old Student; Bruce Jenner`s Transition Continues And Now Reported That He Has Had Breast Implant Surgery; An Incestuous Relationship Between A Father And Daughter Has Produced Not One But Two Children And Landed Both Parents In Jail. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 31, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:08] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, obsessed. A teacher is arrested accused of being deeply in love
with an 11-year-old student. I think some television stars have been watching stories like this. I will tell you why.
Plus, Bruce Jenner`s transition continues. It is now reported that he has had breast implant surgery. Let us get started with what we call,
"Seriously?" A story that would be hard to believe unless it were, in fact, true.
An incestuous relationship between a father and daughter has produced not one but two children and landed both parents in jail. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This Oregon couple has two children together. The 49-year-old man and 25-year-old woman are father and
daughter. Their incestuous relationship is a felony. Both have been sentence to jail.
Police say the relationship was consensual and that he was not her custodial father during childhood. Their children reportedly have a number
of medical issues and are in state custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The children are described as having had, quote, "severe mental and physical impairments. A third child died in utero. And,
people, I hope you understand exactly why you do not want very, very closely related people reproducing.
You can get a recessive gene. Let us say this is a recessive gene, and you can get a dominant gene or some other gene without recessive gene
does not comes through. These two get together. This bad gene may not get through.
But if this bad gene came from this guy and the two of them get together, now you have two of that bad gene. Now, you are going to have
somebody with impairments. Let us say, grotesque oversimplification f of human genetics. But, that is the basic idea.
Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Anahitalive.com; Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu! And Spirit, psychotherapist. A father had reportedly
been ordered to pay back the state for the children`s medical expenses.
And Spirit, I think you could agree with me that the children are really well -- there is more than -- there are multiple victims in this
case, but you got to consider the children one of the victims.
SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, absolutely. And, how confusing is this going to be for them now that it is really public and it is out
there. Both of the parents have been incarcerated and all those things.
What? My mother is my sister? My father is my grandfather? How does that make sense to them, if they are even cognizant enough in any point,
Dr. Drew, to really understand what is going on?
PINSKY: Yes, that is the question as if they are so impaired they may not understand these things. That does not make it any less egregious.
CLANTON: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: The daughter, the one that gave birth to the children, recently pleaded guilty to felony incest herself and received a ten-day
jail sentence. The father pleaded guilty in January, but he is back in jail for the fact that he had moved in with her, with his daughter, lover,
mother of the babies, which is, of course, a probation violation. Anahita, this is so confusing from a legal standpoint. Why did the daughter have to
serve jail time if she was also the victim?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because she was also charged with the felony and she pleaded guilty. It is a felony in that
state, Dr. Drew. And, that he is more than disgusting to me. This is sad because I view her, the girl, as a victim of her father. He victimized
her.
And they are saying this relationship was consensual. But you cannot give consent. She was apparently, by the way, a teenager at the time this
started. So, I blame the father as the adult, as the parent in the relationship, as you always tell us, Dr. Drew. The burden is on him to
draw the line, to make the barriers there.
PINSKY: Absolutely --
SEDAGHATFAR: So, she is a victim.
PINSKY: Listen, on so many levels, it is insane. Sam, you are saying yes?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Yes. I do blame the father but -- God! When I think about these kids, I want to
blame both of them, Dr. Drew. And, I get that is she is the victim in this. She is also an adult. I understand that he groomed her.
But to know that these two kids now are severely impaired, they have all of these health issues because of his or their selfishness and their
impulsiveness and then the third child dying in utero.
And, then he did not have had the shot to begin with. Both of them were in and out of prison. The father has been in prison for years. It is
just so infuriating. Some people should not have children.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: And, certainly, it should not be people with the exact same genetic heritage.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
SCHACHER: Yes.
CLANTON: Yes, especially if they are related.
SCHACHER: Thank you.
PINSKY: Yes, especially if they are father and daughter. I am just saying. Anahita, her sentence was ten days in jail. His was years. What
is the thinking there?
SEDAGHATFAR: I think his sentence was also ten days,but he was serving time for a probation violation.
PINSKY: Oh.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, so, it is a little bit different. But, I am thankful, Dr. Drew, that these kids were taken away and placed in foster
care because clearly they do not have any good judgment. And, hopefully they will be getting the love, the medical, the attention that they need.
I think they are victims as well, clearly.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: I am getting a little nauseated thinking about this story. But, apparently, this guys was not her -- this girl`s custodial father
during her childhood. And, Sam, we do cover this topic before, Genetic Sexual Attraction.
SCHACHER: Right. Yes, we did. We talked about it on a couple different segments that later on in life if you had your father or you
mother o anybody in your life that was you are related to, but they were absent of your life.
And, then, you meet them later on, you almost are overcompensating. That is what they claim, that you are overcompensating to try to reconnect
or force a connection and therefore to come out in a sexual way. We talked about that.
[21:05:21] PINSKY: Yes. And, Spirit, there is this weird -- there is a weird movement that apologizes, an apologist for this and defends it and
says, it is a good thing, because -- It is so great. They feel so close.
SCHACHER: Gross.
PINSKY: Yes, it is gross. And, you know, I am going to talk to in a few minutes who went through this. When she was younger, she thought it
was something that was kind of cool.
In fact, we have talked to many people who have been through this. And they think it is so cool when they are getting into it and then if
somebody allows it to develop, they start realizing just how sick this is.
CLANTON: Absolutely.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is an imbalance of power, Dr. Drew. And, that is why I blame the father more than anyone else in this situation. It is up to
him to draw the line and set the boundaries in this type of situation.
PINSKY: And, Spirit, what were you about to say?
CLANTON: I said it is absolutely the case. And, see -- and to piggyback on what Anahita is saying. The hard part is, at what we all
adults know is that we are just trying to figure out life, too. And, so if they do not have the right intervention in these situations, when they
develop these feelings, it is very easy for the boundaries to get enmeshed like this.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: And, of course, we look at it and go, "It is absolutely disgusting. It is absolutely wrong," but it does happen and this is not
the first story that we have heard like this.
PINSKY: And, there is a tweet up there that said -- from Melissa that said, "Oh, these poor kids are going to have psychological problems." --
With a biological problem because of these parents having shows to be together.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
CLANTON: Exactly.
PINSKY: The biological parents, again, as I told you are genetic and they are profound. There it is there.
SCHACHER: It should be criminal, Dr. Drew. Cannot it be criminal? I mean here they are. I get it.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: I get that there is apologists out there and they are trying to understand it with a Genetic Sexual Attraction. But, at the end
of the day, who are the victims. The victim are these four off springs.
PINSKY: The children.
SCHACHER: Who have to live the rest of their life impaired in some way, shape or form.
PINSKY: Now, strangely, Anahita, back me up on this. There are three states where sex with a relative is legal as long as both parties are over
18 and they do not get married. There are those states, New Jersey, Rhode Island and Connecticut. What is wrong with the legal system?
SEDAGHATFAR: Why do Florida is not on that list?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Thank you very much. Not -- But, literally --
CLANTON: Look at where it is. Look at where it is illegal. Ten days, Dr. Drew. Ten days in jail for a felony.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: You are right.
CLANTON: Come on!
PINSKY: But, I literally have to diagram that. Let me see it again. What are the criteria they have to be? Over 18.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: As long as they do not get married. Go ahead and have sex but do not have kids.
CLANTON: Right. Have children.
SCHACHER: And sterilize them.
PINSKY: What planet am I living on?
SEDAGHATFAR: And, the parents should be viewed as predators in my opinion.
PINSKY: Of course.
SEDAGHATFAR: His daughter was probably vulnerable. She did not have a father in her life.
PINSKY: Of course.
SEDAGHATFAR: She had daddy issue.
PINSKY: His fault again.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: And then he goes and doubles down by exploiting her sexually and then he goes and lives with her again. Fantastic dude. We have got to
meet this guy.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Next up, a woman who was sexually attracted to her son is here to talk about this and she is gone through it, trust me.
And, later, Bruce Jenner`s private life becoming public once again. We will tell you why. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE, HAD INTIMATE AFFAIR WITH FATHER: My father and I reunited last year, and we had a great reunion. It was very emotional. One of the
key things that happened was that we realized how much time has gone by and there was a lot of grief. I constantly wanted to talk to him. I wanted to
be in his presence. I wanted to hold his hands.
PINSKY: Is there a sexual component to it now?
JULIE: Well, there was not at first.
PINSKY: But, then there was?
JULIE: Exactly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE (via phone): There is no way for that relationship to ever be equal. There is never going to be equality in a partnership. There is
always going to be an imbalance of power and the father is need to be held accountable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There it is. Back with Anahita, Sam and Spirit. That was Julie. She spoke to us openly about having sexual feelings with her own
father and sort of getting into that relationship. She was so positive about it. She was leading the band of this people that say that "Genetic
Sexual Attraction," such a glorious things.
And then she went to treatment and then she looked back and she threw up like the rest of us are doing. She realized how traumatic that was. We
are talking about another relationship in which a father and his 25-year- old daughter recently served jail time for having had sex.
And, Anahita, you say that this whole thing got together when she was a teenager. So, not only is it this weird genetic horrible incense but it
is also a violation of a minor.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. It is abuse of power. I think the other guest stated it purposely. There is no equality in that relationship and that is
why I place more of the blame on the father. He was the adult in this situation. He should have known better.
And, this girl clearly, she was vulnerable. If you look at some of her pictures, you can tell. I mean she has a lot of piercings all over her
face. Not to judge, but I think a lot of therapists will tell you, that she was vulnerable. She had daddy issues. And, he cannot --
PINSKY: Well, that daddy issues -- I will tell you, the two reasons she had daddy issues, one, was he was gone and secondly, he was the daddy.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
PINSKY: Well, both are horrible, neither one are good. Sam, what is that?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Yes, Anahita, why is not this dad -- why cannot he be sentenced for something stiffer? I mean, ten days? Really? What else
could a prosecutor do in order to get in behind bars longer?
SEDAGHATFAR: That was part of the law. That is what he pleaded guilty to. So, maybe that was some type of plea agreement that they got
into with the prosecution. And, I think the reason why he ended up serving more time is because this was a probation violation. He was not supposed
to be in her presence again and he ended up moving back in with her.
PINSKY: Can you guys in the control room, are you able to sync up with my iPad at all? No? There was a tweet from Paulin. It says, "My
aunt`s husband has two kids with his stepdaughter. No one has helped us stopped this monster. They are still together."
Yes, so, this happens more than we like to think. In fact, Barbara Gonyo is on the phone. She is the author of "I`m his mother, but he is not
my son." Barbara, you gave up your son for an adoption when you were just 16. You were then reunited 26 years later. Tell us what happened.
[21:15:06] BARBARA GONYO, SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO HER SON: Well, I was running the "Truth Seekers in Adoption" and I was reuniting adopted people
and birth parents. I was looking for my own son. And, I found him and did have a "Genetic Sexual Attraction" with him and I had never even heard it
before and thought there was something definitely wrong with me.
Until I started talking about it more and more at conferences and such and heard other people lining up to hear about it also because they were
feeling the same feelings. But this Genetic Sexual -- when they called me today to ask me if Ithought this particular case that you are talking about
is a "Genetic Sexual Attraction," it is hard for me to say yes to this because this one is a criminal offense, as far as I am concerned.
PINSKY: Well, are not they all ultimately kind of at least if not immorally criminal offense, if the parent caves in to this -- I mean you
thought, yourself, there is something wrong with me, I got to do something about this.
GONYO: Right.
PINSKY: That is the appropriate response. Why were you different than this guy?
GONYO: What I did about it was nothing. That is the thing to do, to do nothing. But as far as -- Not like Julie, I know Julie, you know, and
other people like Julie who have had relationships with their fathers. These fathers are taking advantage of these girls.
PINSKY: Yes.
GONYO: You know, these are fabulous children who are finding their fathers, you know, attractive and sexual. And because it is taboo, it is
in their adoptive family. The taboo does not seem to be in the other family because they never knew them.
PINSKY: Spirit, I wonder if you have any questions. Have you ever had to deal with this with a patient? I know you and I -- of course, when
you deal with patients, you always have the issues of who the parents were and the impact the parents have had on the adult, you know, now adult
developed person, you know, the trauma through the childhood.
CLANTON: Right. Right. Right.
PINSKY: But this is trauma -- like I said, it is the abandoning father that you are sort of glad is abandoning, comes back into life and
becomes the abusive father.
CLANTON: Right. And, let us get really serious about this for just a second, Dr. Drew. Because, you know, I think we do a disservice when we
talk about mental health sometimes.
And, let us be clear that this is not a recognized disorder or dysfunction that is in the DSM-IV or the DSM-V at this point. And, I
really have issues, though, when we start putting these labels that somehow seem to make it OK. You know, this "Genetic Sexual Attraction." No, this
is incest.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: This is simply misplaced sexual attraction. This is pedophilia. This is all of those things that are wrong, that are wrong,
that are wrong. And, so, when we soften it, we somehow make it OK. And, until we address these issues and stand up and say as a society, this will
never be OK for us. We are going to prosecute these things, not for ten days but to the full extent of the law. We will continue to have issues.
PINSKY: Listen, say what you want but where morality comes from, the psychological research is clear. If you -- it comes from a feeling state.
We look at stuff like this and we feel bad. We feel like throwing up. We can actually make that feeling worse if we have a bad taste in our mouth,
that we hear an aversive sound.
We will actually feel even worse about looking at this stuff. So, it clearly is our feelings and our feelings are that way for a reason. This
is not OK. This is harmful to everybody. And, Barbara, I am sure you do not disagree with any of this.
GONYO: No, I do not. In fact, because I am so outspoken about it, because I am trying to stop it. I know that the feelings can happen but
that does not mean that you are supposed to carry them out.
PINSKY: And, did you -- yes.
GONYO: You may feel like you want to walk up and hit somebody in the head, but you are not going to do it.
PINSKY: Right. And, I wonder what is the word I am looking for -- a moral person would contain those impulses. They would be able to judge if
this is not appropriate. Anahita?
GONYO: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: What is it about the adults that they get this attraction to the children? I think we get where the children are coming
from, but what is it about the adults? Why are they --
PINSKY: I get what it is with men because the men just sees an opportunity. Like this guy is, A. Criminal, and horrible person.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, is it about sex? Is it about power?
PINSKY: Well, what is it for Barbara? Barbara is the unusual situation about women feeling this way? Go ahead, Barbara. Tell us.
GONYO: Well, you do not understand the feelings that you are feeling when this happens, because this is your son and you say, "Wow, how can I
feel this way about my son, you know, but it is such a longing to hold this person and to feel this person because you never have for 26 years.
And, all of a sudden he is there and this is your baby. You know, but now he is a man. He is not a baby. But, you have to learn that you cannot
touch. Just because you want to, does not mean you should.
So my message to everybody was, you are going to have the feelings. It quite possibly, you will have the feelings. Do not act on them because
you are going to get -- everything is going to be worse, not better.
PINSKY: Samantha.
SCHACHER: So, Barbara, what advice can you give in the sense that when you had these feelings, did you go see a therapist? What should
people do who feel the feelings and they are having trouble not acting on them?
GONYO: I think my healing power was in talking about it all the time and finding out that people were lining up to hear it because it was
happening to them, too. And, the thought for me, to know that I was not crazy and that I was not just an over-sexed idiot was so comfortable to me,
you know, that I could go out and tell others.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: Well, look --
GONYO: You do not have to do this. You have to get through the feelings. And, yes, you can find a good therapist that will know the
subject and then help you. Fine. Read everything you can and talk to other people that have this.
PINSKY: That is right. These are eroticized longings that need to be brought back to where the long is really stark, which is feelings of pain
and grief or remorse. And, as you said, a longing to hold and be held, that is where it needs to go.
This business of -- by the way, it is not unlike the things that you need to, in the meantime while having these strong feelings, are not unlike
what people need to do to not be a cheater.
Do not be alone with that person. Do not drink with that person. Do not do drugs with that person. Do not do -- you know what I mean? Do not
let the train leave the station, for crying out loud. You are nodding your head, Spirit. I will let you have the last word.
CLANTON: Preach. Yes. Because I am saying here, preach here. Because that is what it is. It is an overwhelming feeling that catches you
off guard and you do not know what to do with it. It is an expression of bonding. "I love you." "I am trying to connect." "I physically want to
be in your presence."
PINSKY: You know what?
CLANTON: And they are overwhelmed.
PINSKY: Yes. There is a bigger issue here. I just realized. We have lived through a time, probably 30 years where it is like, "Hey, man!
Whatever you feel, whatever you are in to, you just go do it, man!"
CLANTON: Just go with it.
PINSKY: "Express it, man. It is your feeling." No! It is not at all. That is B.S. That is a misappropriation. It is a high order to say,
"Hey, wait a minute. Stop, think, look. Think about the consequences. Empathize with the other person, really take account of your actions."
That is where we need to be these days. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Barbara.
Next up, police say a teacher was obsessed with her 11-year-old student and planned to run away with the child. There is another one. Do
not do it, teacher. You are a teacher, for crying out loud.
And, later, Bruce Jenner is having breast augmentation surgery. It is being reported. We will talk about it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:36] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: What happens when you add up a young teacher, a young student and 2,400 text messages? Police in
Pittsburgh say it is a criminal equation. They have charged 28-year-old Geraldine Alcorn with a child luring and corruption of minors for
exchanging thousands of texts with her 11-year-old student in the course of 17 days.
They say the messages referred to the girl leaving home, even being adopted by the teacher. According to the criminal complaint, after Ms.
Alcorn resigned, police found gifts and letters from the teacher in the girl`s locker and desk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Sam and Spirit. And, "WTF," the most shocking story of the night, making the rounds on Twitter and on our
Facebook. Sam, tell me more about this story.
SCHACHER: OK. So, once again, this teacher is charged with child luring, corruption of minors and interfering with child custody. Her
preliminary hearing is tomorrow. The teacher and the girl hid their relationship from the girl`s mom. Police say teacher was caught in the
girl`s home while the mom was out work.
They say she brought the 11-year-old to her own home as well. Three days after the teacher left school for the last time, the girl found gifts
and letters in her locker and desk. And, get this, there was allegedly also a math sheet with the teacher`s phone number coded into the math
sheet, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Speaking of do not do it teacher. Police say also the text indicated that they were planning to run away and that the teacher wanted
to adopt this girl.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: According to one report, there were 2,400 text messages between them in a 17-day period. It is 2,400 -- Anahita, that is insanity.
And, my question is, obviously, it is the responsibility of the teacher, but the school have responsibility here as well.
SEDAGHATFAR: I definitely think the school will be held civilly liable if the family decides to file a civil law suit. I do not see any
criminal liability here. And, clearly this teacher, this woman is disturbed. But the police are saying this was not necessarily a sexual
infatuation she had with the little girl. So, she is not a pedophile, but I think she had --
PINSKY: Oh. Well, then, it is OK? Let us let it roll on. Good times.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, no. It is not OK. But, I saw some similarities between her behavior and that of pedophiles, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. Of course.
SEDAGHATFAR: We have talked about the compulsion. She got caught. She was forced to resign from the school and yet she could not stop from
contacting her, for leaving her gifts. It is a compulsion.
PINSKY: Our fantasy is that it may become sexual.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: But, Spirit, it does not necessarily have to become sexual, it could be incestuous like this.
CLANTON: You are right.
PINSKY: And, they have boundary problems that are terrible for the kid.
CLANTON: You are right. And, you know, Dr. Drew. It is funny, because as I started to think about this, you know, watching this story, I
thought, "What happened to the old ugly washed up teachers that we had, you know, so long ago." I do not remember the young sexy teachers that we have
nowadays. Bring the old betties back.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Let us not despaired our teachers now. Come on now.
CLANTON: Come on now! Dr. Drew, did you ever have a sexy teacher growing up? I mean seriously. I did not.
PINSKY: Not like -- no, I did not either. But this teacher was well liked. The parent said she was well liked. She played something called
trivia crack --
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: -- something that is a smartphone apps with the student. But, again, the degree to which she chummied up to these children -- do we
have a clip from the girl`s episode? I was watching this -- are you guys planning to play -- here we go. Play it here.
Which is that I was watching, I asked the producer to pull this up for me. Because I was watching -- I am a fan of "Girls." I am a fan of Lena
Dunham and the entire cast. And, they did a storyline about a teacher just like this. And, it got so uncomfortably accurate for me.
I thought, "Oh-oh, I hope they mean what they are actually portraying here, which is something terribly sick." And, I know Lena Dunham. I met
her. I know Judd Apatow. And, I am certain, this is going to pay out in the next season, where this "Girls" -- It is not going to go well. So, let
me play this little clip for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LENA DUNHAM, AS HANNAH HORVATH, IN THE T.V. SERIES, "GIRLS": Could we get two best friendulum piercings, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUNHAM, AS HANNAH: It is going right in -- aw, aw, aw!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUNHAM, AS HANNAH: I do not even like him. I am just bored. I like Shia LaBeouf, though. He is hot. And, I like the kind of, like, light
criminal activity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, Sam, that is apparently Judd Apatow`s daughter who plays the student --
SCHACHER: Interesting. OK.
PINSKY: Who get the piercing weekly in the datum. Who is her best friend and they are hanging out and they are the best. This a like a
parent being a friend. This the same --
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Big people take care of little people. They are not just their chummy friend. They are taking care of and they are responsible for
them. Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes, we are seeing more and more of this, Dr. Drew. It is becoming more prevalent and why? Are they not properly vetting teachers
anymore? What happened to the boundaries, as Spirit said?
[21:30:04] PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
SCHACHER: I do not think that you need to be -- what did you say, like old and washed up?
PINSKY: No.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Still no boundaries. However -- yes, I look at my mom. My mom who is a 4th grade teacher would never send a text message yet alone
2400 texte messages to a student. She would never play crack trivia with a student.
There needs to be the teachers, the authoritative figure. The students as a student. And, Dr. Drew, come on, 2400 text messages in 17
days? I would not exchange 2400 text messages within a year.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: Something is wrong with her.
PINSKY: Of course.
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: It makes me want to think she is manic. Anahita.
SCHACHER: Manic, yes!
SEDAGHATFAR: Why did an 11-year-old girl has a cell phone to begin with. I am not trying to blame her parents. But, why does an 11-year-old
has a cell phone where she is text messaging.
SCHACHER: It was not a cell phone.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, why did not her parents check those text messages every day.
PINSKY: Wait. Sam.
SCHACHER: it was not a cell phone. It was an iPod. And, at first I thought was a grammatical error, like an iPad. But, no, a number of
different sources says it was an iPod. And you can also exchange messages on an iPod.
SEDAGHATFAR: How can you text on --
SCHACHER: But, yes, the parents should be checking all devices.
SEDAGHATFAR: Social media.
SCHACHER: Not just a cell phone but all devices.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Right. And we have talked a lot about this in the context of social media. This girl was 11 years old, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: Even if it was an iPod, how come her parents were not checking it. Not looking at it.
PINSKY: First of all, we did not hear about parents. We heard about a mom. We heard that there is a mom and maybe the mom was overwhelmed or
maybe the mom is the kind of person that sets up a kid to be a good victim.
Mom was inappropriate -- sort of somehow traumatizing to the kid. We do not know the mom. We do not know what happened here. But kids who
become victims, strangely, Spirit, always seemed to be previously victimized in some fashion -- you know not getting what they needed. So,
they are going out into the world needy and people who are victimizers take advantage of them.
CLANTON: Absolutely. And, you know, the problem here, Dr. Drew is that, one, most parents are checked out of the school system. So, we have
so many people who are sending their kids to school thinking it is the safe place and they do not have to pay attention.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
CLANTON: But, then the other part of this is just society in general. We still do not understand the grooming behaviors of individuals who seek
to lure our children in.
So, we do not know what the signs are. We do not know the questions to ask. We do not know what to look for until, unfortunately, it is way
too late, like a situation like this.
PINSKY: All right --
CLANTON: And, it is not just happening in schools.
PINSKY: No, of course not. Next, we are going to talk about more of these messages between teacher and student.
And, later, Bruce Jenner has not been seen publicly in weeks. Does it have something to do with his transition from male to female. We will get
into it. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:36:43] UNIDENTIFIED 11-YEAR-OLD FEMALE STUDENT: Things Ms. Alcorn and I can do, what we can, when we can do it, deep love on the run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, my God. Back with Anahita, Sam and Spirit. That was a sample of some of the alleged communication between 28-year-old teacher,
Geraldine Alcorn, and an 11-year-old student.
Police say the teacher spoke about running away with the girl, even adopting her even though this case does not appear to have become sexual,
most of the teacher-student stories we have covered become so or have been so.
Here is some troubling stats. In Texas, the number of teacher/student misconduct cases has shot up 41 percent in less than six months. In
California, the number jumped 70 percent. 35 percent of the cases has involved social media.
Sam, is that what this is? There is such poor boundaries on social media that, that is just allowing people to prey on one another?
SCHACHER: More access, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: No.
SCHACHER: Yes, absolutely. That is why parents have to make sure that they are monitoring the best they can the social environment that
their children are in. When I say social, I mean all social media. But, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: 2400 -- we talked about this earlier, but 2400 text messages exchanged within 17 days, is not that evidence that we have said
also maybe she is manic? --
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: -- so were not there other red flags of her behavior that the school or the other people there should have noticed?
PINSKY: You would hope but clearly nobody noticed it. Anahita, you are saying, yes, they should have, but that is where the liability is going
to come from.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly. The issue will be should they have known or did they know? There had to have been other red flags, possibly some other
complaints. And, Dr. Drew, to kind of comment on something you mentioned in the last block about the daughter perhaps being set up in a way by her
own mother to be a victim.
PINSKY: Well, now, hang on. I did not say that clearly. Maybe the mom was away working and struggling. But she was not -- the children that
do not get what they need or get something that they do not need, some traumatization become good victims.
SEDAGHATFAR: Good victims.
PINSKY: That is what I am saying.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. And, I was going to say to add to that, pedophiles and child predators know exactly how to target those particular children.
PINSKY: I know. I know.
SEDAGHATFAR: They go for the vulnerable.
PINSKY: It is unbelievable.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: They go for the ones that possibly need the attention or they are not getting love at home.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: Some interesting dynamic.
PINSKY: Now, according to the school and the police, the teacher tried to contact the 11-year-old even after she had been suspended, was
told to stop. Days after the teacher left, the girl found gifts and letters in her locker and desk. Plus, again, as Sam mentioned that
encrypted phone number on a math worksheet, so the girl can call her.
Spirit, I mean this woman is relentless. Mania is one possibility but the other is, you know, people love to say this is a terrible person. And,
she may be someone who -- well, she is clearly somebody who should not be in the position of taking care of little people.
This the problem. Why all that data suggesting that this is on the increase? Are we traumatizing our kids so much that now they have grown up
to be teachers that traumatize kids? Is that what we have done?
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: We have raised a group of -- an entire generation who cannot take care of little people because they were not taking care of themselves?
CLANTON: There you go, Dr. Drew. Hurt people hurt people. So, what we have is all of these emotionally needy people who are looking to relive
their youth with these children. And, so now the boundaries are not there as you said. We have access on social media.
[21:40:00] We can IM each other. We can tweet. We can text and there is no boundaries. There is no oversight. How could the school have
known? You know, it is just too easy for us to communicate.
PINSKY: So, does that mean it is going to get worse? Does that mean it is the leading edge of a tsunami?
SEDAGHATFAR: I think so.
PINSKY: You think so, Anahita? You think so?
CLANTON: I will be in enhance training.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think so. This is becoming an epidemic, Dr. Drew. Look at those statistics.
PINSKY: I know. It is crazy.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is staggering
PINSKY: But, I am hoping it is a peak and not the beginning of a trend.
SCHACHER: I am hoping it is a peak, but --
CLANTON: We need an overhaul. We need an overhaul.
SCHACHER: I definitely think that the school --
CLANTON: We need an overhaul.
SCHACHER: -- the school had their blinders on. I am sorry. Again, somebody who is so manic or extreme or so obsessive to be exchanging 2400
text messages, there were other red flags that went unnoticed.
SEDAGHATFAR: There has to be.
PINSKY: Spirit -- Spirit, where is the overhaul? Is it our families? Is it our schools? Is it our legal system? Where is the overhaul? How do
we deal with this?
CLANTON: The overhaul is in the training. It is when we hire teachers, there should be a rigorous process and there need to be protocols
and procedures in place about boundaries.
SCHACHER: Yes.
CLANTON: What type of communications teachers are allowed to have with children. It is OK to bond, to connect, to educate. It is not OK to
befriend and to have unlimited, unbridled access to these children. It is dangerous for everyone.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, that is assuming that these predators are rational. And, it is just -- that they need trainings.
CLANTON: They are not. No. You do not know.
SEDAGHATFAR: I disagree.
CLANTON: That is exactly it, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think this is almost like there is compulsion.
CLANTON: That is exactly it.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, any amount of training --
CLANTON: You do not know. You do not --
SEDAGHATFAR: -- I do not think would prevent it --
CLANTON: No, you have it wrong.
SCHACHER: It is a vetting process, she is saying. Like more of a strict vetting process to --
CLANTON: It is an ongoing compliance. It is an expectation and there is oversight constantly. You do not trust because the predators will go
where you cannot see. I do training all the time as a sexual child -- sexual abuse prevention coordinator. So, I go in and I teach individuals
the signs to look for.
How do you put up protection in order to protect children? How do you make safe spaces? How do you kill hot spots in your community, in your
school systems? You have to know what these are to protect the kids.
PINSKY: You know -- I agree with you. I am a little defeated by this conversation because we are living at a time when people with mental
illness that goes untreated and undetected because their privacy rights supersede everything else can fly a plane into a cliff and become mass
murderers, when this is somebody they could have been treated, they could have been helped.
And if he had been found not to be worthy of driving a plane, should not be driving a plane. If somebody should not be taking care of students,
she should not be taking care of them. In the meantime, she can be properly screened, properly educated, properly treated and properly dealt
with.
If we are dealing with tsunami of trauma survivors that are coming into our workforce, we sure as heck better be ready to deal with these
because there is going to be more boundary violations because it has been our fault.
We did not raise these kids with boundaries in the first place. We disciplined them or we abandoned them or traumatized them or we over
praised them. All of it is bad.
Next up, there were reports that Bruce Jenner has undergone breast augmentation surgery. Some celebrities, some comedies taking aim.
Please check out our Facebook page for more on this and other stories tonight after the show. We will have of course our After Show there at
facebook/DrDrewHLN. Check us out there. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:47:20] PINSKY: Bruce Jenner is doing this properly step by step giving him and us a chance to adjust to this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: His Adam`s apple changed. He is growing his hair out very long. On his birthday, he showed up with a
bright manicure on his fingers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Watching him as this masculine man and then kind of transitioning where he is now. All things aside, I get his
kids are for him. I absolutely support what he is doing, but I would be pissed if I were his ex-wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: The time that you take your family and you sell yourself to be on a vapid fake reality show about your family,
to me, you lose all credibility of being taken seriously.
So, sadly, for me, I think if this is true, Bruce Jenner would have been an amazing role model for the transgender community, but I think being
part of the Kardashian clan has really made him just a joke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Sam and Spirit in the segment we call, "Celebrity Behavior." Bruce Jenner, trending again. This time because of
website has reported that he has undergone breast augmentation surgery. You may have seen reports that he is transitioning from male to female.
Though, Jenner has not spoken publicly about this. So, HLN has no independent confirmation of his plans. If it is true, this would be a next
logical step in his transformation. Sam, any news on that front?
SCHACHER: Well, Dr. Drew, just as you stated, there are reports but there are unconfirmed reports. So, some different news outlets are saying
that he underwent breast augmentation.
Other ones are saying that it is from the hormones and so people are noticeably seeing a change. But, regardless, it goes to show how much lack
of education and ignorance there is out there surrounding the transgender community.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Leave this guy alone. If that makes him feel more as a woman as he transitions into a woman, then go for it. Good for him.
PINSKY: I agree with you, Sam. Why are you laughing, Anahita? What?
SEDAGHATFAR: I am just laughing that you know, why do people care what Bruce Jenner is doing?
PINSKY: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: Why is this a topic of discussion?
SCHACHER: It should be a topic of discussion.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is trending.
SCHACHER: There is a lot of transgender people out there that feel that they are nonexistent and that people do not understand them.
SEDAGHATFAR: But this just makes their cause even worse.
PINSKY: Well, let me flip it around. Let me say, I think it could make it better.
SCHACHER: Me, too.
PINSKY: I am going to talk to a transgender individual in just a minute. But, the fact is people are preoccupied with that family and he
has allowed us all to slowly see this transition. He could be a role model. He could really help the cause. This is still a working progress.
We do not know yet what his plan is. There may be something good that comes of all of this. However, comedians, of course, are taking advantage.
Jamie Foxx took a shot at the iHeartRadio Music Awards. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00] JAMIE FOXX, COMEDIAN STAR: We got some groundbreaking performances here too tonight. We got Bruce Jenner will be here doing some
musical performances. He is doing a his and her duet all by himself.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: That is a little rough. And, Kevin Hart joked about Bruce during the "Roast of Justin Bieber" with Bruce`s daughter, Kendall, in the
audience. I wonder what she felt about it. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HART, COMEDIAN STAR: Selena got word that there were rumors of Justin dealing with Kendall Jenner and that shocked me. I was like, what
the (EXPLETIVE WORD) That is what I said. What the (EXPLETIVE WORD).
I was like, you are going to deal with a Jenner? I thought it would be Bruce. That is what I thought. Just one. I am sorry. That is the
only one. I swear to God. Guys, no more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, she is laughing. I do not know. Let me bring in Julie Vu. Julie is a transgender YouTuber, who is very outspoken about her
sexual reassignment surgery. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE VU, TRANSGENDER YOUTUBER: For a moment, I asked myself, what am I doing to myself? Why am I going through this? Did I make a mistake?
And, at that point, I was regretting my surgery because of how badly I was in pain. I was really curious, to be honest, I am not joking. I was
really curious. I was like, hopefully, you know, with severe surgery, it looks like a normal woman in a bikini.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us by Skype, Julie Vu, a transgender YouTuber. And, Julie, you actually shocked your family, which made it difficult. They did
not know you were going to go through all of this, I guess, which made it difficult for you to get their support?
VU: That is correct. I kind of just came out of the closet just transgender and just went full out transitioned and it shocked them a lot.
And I think gained their support at first, so it was a little bit difficult.
PINSKY: Do you feel -- do you think that perhaps the fact that Bruce Jenner`s allowing us to kind of watch this in slow motion is going to help
the community and help him?
VU: I think so. I think it is something that is going to help, you know, like when I came out, just so sudden, it shocked a lot of people and
especially Bruce Jenner is a public figure. I think it would shock a lot of people. But since he is doing it very slowly, I think it is very
beneficial.
PINSKY: All right, Julie, stay with me. The #transgenderdayofvisibility is trending. We will talk about that. We are
back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:56:40] NICOLE RAMOS, TRANSGENDER YOUTUBER: It is also important to understand that having a vagina is not something that would make me a
woman to me, because this made me a woman. You cannot just push, "Hey, I am a woman" and, bam, and change everything overnight and expect it to kind
of stick and be taken seriously. Me, personally, I would have done it overnight if I could. But I had other people to think about in this
situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Anahita, Sam, Spirit and Julie Vu. Julie is a transgender YouTuber. They are all back with me. Sam, explain why the
#transgenderdayofvisbility is trending.
SCHACHER: OK. So, today, transgender people, they are posting selfies and also adding that hash tag, Dr. Drew, in the hopes to increase
their visibility online. Now, this was started by transgender woman who noticed that in the news, they are most of the --
I guess you could say the reporting on the trans community was about victims of crime or a day of remembrance for a transgender person who had
been killed. So, she wanted to do something that was a little bit more positive while, at the same time, increasing their visibility.
PINSKY: Julie, have you posted your selfie yet?
VU: No, I have not. Not yet.
PINSKY: And Spirit, did you want to talk to Julie? I understand you want some makeup tips.
(LAUGHING)
CLANTON: Julie, you are one of the most beautiful woman that I have ever seen in my life. Hats off to you.
VU: Thank you so much.
CLANTON: You are breathtaking.
VU: Thank you. Thank you so much.
PINSKY: Let us take a couple questions. I got something from Layla on our Facebook page. She says, quote, "I have nothing against young
person doing a gender assignment. I just do not understand why or how he waited until age 66 to do this after three failed marriages, six adult
children. Why now?" I will ask Julie that question. I got some thoughts on my own. Go ahead, Julie.
CLANTON: Me too.
VU: I think it is hard. I think it is hard being such living in the public eye and with the media and stuff and your family. I think it is
definitely tough. There is lots of people who come out later in life, sooner in life. It is just all depending on your life, I think.
PINSKY: Spirit?
CLANTON: Yes, and the bottom line is, Drew, real quick, it just shows how hard he tried to conform. He could not make it work so eventually he
had to be who he was.
PINSKY: Right. And, I actually talked to Dr. Renee Richards. Do you guys remember who she is? She was a psychiatrist -- or dentist, I think
she was, and she became -- she transitioned, had to move and it was in the days when no one talked about it.
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: She became a professional tennis player. It became a point of contention because -- is she male or is she a female? This was sort of
the argument back then. She had said that she counsels a lot of people. She said this and I heard from the surgeon who is doing a lot of the
reassignment surgeries, that they are seeing a lot of middle-aged men now - -
A lot of middle-aged men, who struggled with this much of their life. It became clearer later in life what was going on and they finaly felt
comfortable really coming forward with it and doing what they wanted to do. Does that fit with your understanding, Julie?
VU: Yes, that is correct.
PINSKY: Yes. Anahita, you have been very quiet. I will give you a question here if you could like.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I was going to say. You know, I think this is good. This is a good example of social media being used for something good
for a change.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, I think it is great that people are tweeting these pictures and people are getting educated, like myself. There is a lot I do
not know about transgender, so I think this is great.
PINSKY: Sam, 10 seconds.
SCHACHER: 10 seconds. Let us just remember the alarming statistic that 50 percent of transgender youth by the time they hit 20 years old, 50
percent of them have attempted to commit suicide because of the ignorance and the guilt.
PINSKY: Julie, thank you for joining us. Thank you, panel. You can DVR us then watch any time. Internet, know how, and play along on HLN`s
new show, "Keyword" next.
END
