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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield
Indiana Gov: Must Fix Religious Freedom Bill; Pats Owner Testifies at Aaron Hernandez Trial; Iran Talks Continue. Aired 12- 12:30p ET
Aired March 31, 2015 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:00:20] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.
He signed the bill. He's proud of the bill. But as you just heard live here on CNN, the embattled governor of Indiana says he now wants to fix that bill that the defenders call a Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but the critics call a license to discriminate, specifically against gays and lesbians. In the five short days since Indiana became the 20th state with a law purporting to defend religious faith and practices, the economic backlash alone has been huge. Hoosier companies have threatened pullbacks. Other states have ordered boycotts. The likes of Apple and the NCAA have weighed in negatively. And this would seem to be the result.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I think it would be helpful, and I'd like to see on my desk before the end of this week, legislation that is added to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in Indiana that makes it clear that this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone. We want to make it clear that Indiana's open for business. We want to make it clear that Hoosier hospitality is not a slogan, it's our way of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I'm joined now by CNN's Miguel Marquez, who is live in Indianapolis.
And, Miguel, I know you've got a special guest with you, but, wow, this blowback was something that the governor said he did not expect, but he is having to deal with it.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Clearly he has caved. It's not a -- it's not clear how much he has caved or what that fix in this bill will look like. He seems to be talking about something that would include -- that the -- that the legislation that they -- that he signed into law would not surpass federal, state (INAUDIBLE) when it comes to gays, lesbians or other protected classes of citizens. But it's not clear. It's also not clear it can be done this week because the house and the legislature here, even though completely controlled by Republicans, would have to suspend the work that they're doing, they'd have to suspend the rules and rush something through, which is fairly unheard of in Indiana.
Democrats in the minority in the house and the senate here in Indiana will be holding a press conference at 1:00 to address all of this. And the governor is saying that at this hour, they are still talking about the language that will be the fix for this bill. So it's not clear what we will see.
I do want to bring in Greg Louganis, who is not from Indiana, but your husband is.
GREG LOUGANIS, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: Yes.
MARQUEZ: You become Olympic gold medalist, of course, and you've become sort of an activist on this issue.
LOUGANIS: Yes.
MARQUEZ: You were not allowed into the press conference. But what do you make of -- why is it important to gain lesbians and transgender everywhere, what we're seeing here in Indiana?
LOUGANIS: Well, OK, my husband's not from Indy, OK?
MARQUEZ: Oh, he's not from Indy, sorry.
LOUGANIS: He's from Lafayette. But, you know, it's -- you know, it's so important to me, you know, that, you know, legislation like this hurts our LGBT and questioning youth. You know, what kind of message are we sending our young people? You know, it's a high rate of teen suicides amongst gay teens and, you know, and, you know, I struggled with this growing up as a gay person.
MARQUEZ: The governor says that there will be a fix. I don't know how closely you have followed the minutia of this bill and of what's happening here, but what do you want to see come out of the house and senate here in Indianapolis?
LOUGANIS: Well, basically inclusion, you know, that our rights are protected as the LGBT community. You know, I've always felt embraced by Indiana, by Indianapolis. I've been to Olympic diving trials, nationals, Pan American games here. I made my professional dance debut. I don't think it reflects the people of Indiana.
MARQUEZ: Do you think Indiana is getting a bad rap in all of this?
LOUGANIS: I don't -- I'm not going to say that Indiana's getting a bad rap with this. I mean something needs to be done. And I think that education needs to happen. Sexual identity is -- you're born this way. You know, so you're excluding, you know, a portion of humanity.
MARQUEZ: Ashleigh, did you have a question for Mr. Louganis?
[12:05:00] BANFIELD: I -- you know, I'd love -- I'd love to get his reaction to what the governor said or didn't say. I mean a fix, but he wouldn't say what a fix was.
MARQUEZ: Yes, he -- yes, he --
BANFIELD: And certainly it's shot -- Miguel, short of this notion of protection, a protected class for gays and lesbians in the state of Indiana, what could possibly fix this bill?
LOUGANIS: I don't know what can fix the bill. I really don't. I mean you do have to include -- you know, be inclusive that --
MARQUEZ: Right. Well --
LOUGANIS: Sexual identity be -- be in place.
MARQUEZ: During the press conference he said he'd accept a fix, but he wouldn't go so far as to include a nondiscrimination clause for gays and lesbians and transgender across Indiana, which is something that activists have asked for, for many years.
LOUGANIS: Right.
MARQUEZ: I mean, so --
LOUGANIS: Well, you know what, I -- you know, I come from California. We have Prop 8. You know, that was -- you know, that was -- we had to fight to defeat that so that I can marry my soulmate, Johnny Chailot, be legally married in the state of California. So we've had our issues with, you know, with our own legislation in California. And it appears that that's what's happening here now in Indiana.
MARQUEZ: Yes. Ashleigh, anything else?
BANFIELD: No. We're watching this. And clearly, Miguel, great reporting on that. I could hear the questions over and over again, but I kept hearing a lot of the same answers. And I, for one, am dying to find out what this legislative fix will be but so far no answers from the governor, no hints either.
MARQUEZ: Well, that's -- that's the question.
BANFIELD: Yes, that's really it. I mean until we get that, there's -- there's so little to talk about other than those who are so frustrated.
MARQUEZ: And, you know, I asked him during the very last part of the press conference whether he personally believed if individuals who were Christian, they owned businesses, photography, florists, bakers, if he personally believed whether they should be -- they should have to supply services to gays and lesbians for their weddings, and he again, like over the weekend, he dodged the question. So I think a lot of this is -- even though he says it doesn't -- it doesn't discriminate, that Indiana doesn't discriminate, there -- it comes back to that question over gay and lesbian weddings and how that has really thrown a wrench into the -- into the (INAUDIBLE) works, as it were.
Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: Yes. And what makes it so different as well from 1993 and for many of the other states, like Illinois, where Barack Obama signed the legislation as well. There was protection for gays and lesbians in Illinois. So it is different. It's not the same.
MARQUEZ: It is not.
BANFIELD: And that's frustrating to hear that it's the same.
Miguel Marquez, thank you. And our great thanks to Greg Louganis. By the way, huge fan, Greg, of your incredible --
LOUGANIS: Oh, thank you.
BANFIELD: I mean, wow, I heard Greg Louganis is on the show and I thought I wish I could talk to you about sports, but here we are talking about this instead. Anyway, thanks to both of you for shedding light on this and for trying to work through these complicated concepts as well.
By the way, we are working on another very, very important story here. And we are just hours away right now, mere hours away, from a deadline that the whole world is watching for the United States and other countries everywhere. These people have something on the table that it's either signed or it's not signed and it matters. It is a deadline to make a nuclear deal with Iran. If it happens, can President Obama even sell this when he brings it home?
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[12:11:40] BANFIELD: You know, it is not often that a multimillion- dollar member of the sports and business elite is asked to walk into a courtroom, step up onto a stand, swear and then be a witness in a murder trial. And it is probably the very last thing that Robert Kraft, who's the owner of the New England Patriots, ever dreamed he would have to do in his life. And there you have it. Look at your screen. That's exactly what he had to do this morning in Aaron Hernandez's murder trial. And there he is. He's being asked to lift that hand and swear an oath because on June 19, 2013, two days after a man named Odin Lloyd was murdered, Mr. Hernandez and Mr. Kraft were alone together at the Patriots' stadium.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you say something to him to start the conversation?
ROBERT KRAFT, OWNER, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was that, sir?
KRAFT: I understood there was an incident that had transpired and I wanted to know whether he was involved. And if he was, you know, I wanted to make sure -- he's part of our -- any player who comes into our system, I consider part of our extended family. And I wanted to get him help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So as a result of -- did you say this to the defendant?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did he say when you had asked him whether he was involved in this matter?
KRAFT: He said he was not involved. That he was innocent. And that he hoped that the time of the murder incident came out because I believe he said he was in a club.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: But he was not in the club. And I've got some guests who are going to walk through this. Susan Candiotti, for starters, is live outside the courthouse in Fall River, Massachusetts. And also here with me live, HLN legal analyst and defense attorney Joey Jackson, and then former prosecutor Dan Schorr is going to weigh in on this one too.
First to you, Susan. I can imagine you could have heard a pin drop in that courtroom because they sure kept it quiet that Mr. Kraft, who is legendary in the town where you are, in the state where you are, walked in to testify in a murder trial.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He sure is, especially after listening to hours' worth of cell phone records, this was a marquee witness for the prosecution. And, yes, the jury was on the edge of their seats, scribbling down notes. This does not fit into the prosecution's time line. Here's why.
Jurors have been shown so far that he wasn't at a club at the time of the incident. That instead, just after midnight, he was still at a bar in Providence, Rhode Island, left that bar about 12:30 in the morning. Surveillance video shows him arriving back at his house at 1:00 in the morning, then leaving about an hour later, still on video. The same car he was driving pulls up and picks up the victim in this case, prosecutors say, Odin Lloyd.
And then that car -- you see it, according to prosecutors, again, on video, drive into an industrial park. And then a few minutes after Odin Lloyd is said to be killed, shot dead six times, you see that same vehicle drive back into Aaron Hernandez's driveway, which is less than a mile away, within just a few minutes. Ashleigh, it just doesn't fit.
[12:15:05] BANFIELD: Yes. It doesn't fit. And let's just be clear, it doesn't fit the defense time line. It sure fits the prosecution's time line because all along they've said this guy is lying. That he has lied to all of those people he said he was elsewhere during this murder.
One thing, Susan, I want to point out is this moment where Robert Kraft was on the stand and he was specifically asked about the kind of conversation -- this private conversation he was having with Aaron Hernandez in the weight room where Hernandez had been working out and had a couple of coaches nearby. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you and Aaron would see each other, you had a bit of a special greeting, didn't you?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was that, sir?
KRAFT: Well, he would always hug and kiss me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You asked Aaron to look you in the eye, didn't you?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he did, didn't he?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you asked him if he was involved and he said no?
KRAFT: That's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you wanted him to be straight with you, didn't you?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you wanted to be straight with him, correct?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you told him you would support him, didn't you?
KRAFT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Aaron told you he had nothing to do with this, isn't that right?
KRAFT: He said he was innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: He said he was innocent. Joey Jackson, Dan Schorr, jump in on this because if he's hugging and kissing this guy like he's family, and says look me in the eye and tell me if you've got something to do with this or not, can't this cross for both sides of this trial?
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Always does, Ashleigh. It depends upon -- you know, we, as lawyers, get the same information, but we spin it differently. And here's how. This is Robert Kraft. This is someone who said, after you told him the story, that I'll support you. This is the person you hugged and kiss. Why did he hug him and kiss him? Because he's a great guy. He's not a murderer. He wouldn't do that. And so certainly the defense you could hear, in closing, will say that. Now, Dan, on the other hand --
DAN SCHORR, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well --
JACKSON: From the prosecution's perspective, I'm sure will say something different.
BANFIELD: Why? Dan, why would -- why would a prosecutor put Mr. Kraft up there to say I hug and kiss this man. He's like family. He even said that in another sound bite that he's like family.
SCHORR: Look, that's just part of the way it played out. But the big takeaway here is that the defendant, Aaron Hernandez, is lying to Robert Kraft about where he was at the time of the murder. That shows tremendous consciousness of guilt because if you're accused of a murder and you're questioned about it, why would you lie if you really had nothing to do with it and you weren't there? So the fact that he says, I was at a club, when we know now he was not at a club, raises the big question the jury's going to consider, why was he lying about his whereabouts?
BANFIELD: So I remember --
JACKSON: He was at a club.
BANFIELD: I remember lying to my mom about being at a bar.
SCHORR: You weren't accused of murder at the time, I'm sure.
BANFIELD: You're right about that, but I lied to the person I loved the most, right?
JACKSON: Right.
BANFIELD: So can't you say, as a defense attorney, OK, so he lied to Bob Kraft about where he was that night because he sure doesn't want Bob Kraft thinking he has anything to do with this.
JACKSON: It's his employer. Bob Kraft, he's paying him $44 million. And certainly while you can be a missrepresenter of the truth, I don't like to say liar, it doesn't make you a murderer. And even in the event that we know that Aaron Hernandez is there, could you establish that he's guilty of anything?
You have to -- and I know the joint venture liability, Dan, the prosecutor you are, you don't have to show he pulled the trigger, you just need to show that he actively participated, importuned and did other things to assist in the death. But if, at the end of the day, you establish he's there, Ashleigh, but he was merely present and didn't take part in that crime, he is what he said to Bob Kraft, innocent.
SCHORR: But also the analogy you used, when you lie to your parents, it was probably because you did something you weren't supposed to do, right? And that's the analogy on a much bigger and more important scale here. He is lying about where he was. And the question is, is that because he was involved in the murder? Why else would he lie about where he was?
BANFIELD: And, by the way, the statute of limitations in my lie is definitely over 30 years when I did it, OK.
Guys, thank you for that.
I just can't believe watching Robert Kraft walk into a murder case and thinking --
JACKSON: Yes.
BANFIELD: That poor man.
JACKSON: Yes.
BANFIELD: Mortified. Mortified that he's involved in any of this and has to do this kind of thing.
My thanks to Susan Candiotti, who's doing just such a bang-up job on this case. Just phenomenal coverage on it.
JACKSON: Yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: Dan and Joey, I'd like to ask you to stick around if you can.
I don't know if you've been looking at your clock lately, but it's about 20 past noon on the East Coast. And everywhere around the world, everyone's looking at a clock right now because the Iranians and the Americans and a whole host of other players have fewer than six hours left to come to terms with a very important deal. It's somewhere in the hole in the middle of that table and no one knows if they're going to push away from the table with anything at all.
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[12:23:05] BANFIELD: There is nothing absolutely certain right now in the negotiations on Iran's nuclear program except for the fact that we are less than six hours away from the deadline and that everything right now is at a critical stage. The Iranian foreign minister and his counterparts from France and China and Russia and Britain and Germany and the United States of America with the Secretary of State John Kerry, they are all sitting around that table in Lausanne, Switzerland. I want to take you live there where CNN's global affairs correspondent Elise Labott has been covering those talks from the beginning, probably knows more about them than just about anybody I know.
So I kept thinking, Elise, as I woke up this morning, oh, it's do-or- die day for this deal or is it? Or is it extension day for this deal?
ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, they're going to come down to the wire. I spoke to Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday and he told me there was some light in the talks but still somewhat he called tricky issues. There are some sticking points, but negotiators are continuing to go down to the wire. They've been meeting all day and likely to go up till that deadline and even beyond it.
Ashleigh, this is a self-imposed deadline. The real deadline is June 30th when the interim agreement expires and they need to have a comprehensive deal. What they're looking for right now is a framework deal of kind of political understandings that they can then negotiate into a fuller deal.
And so tomorrow, nothing happens, no one turns into a pumpkin or anything like that. This is a date where the -- particularly the Obama administration said it wants to make sure that Iran is serious about making a full deal. And the Obama administration wants to show those commitments to Congress. Congress is really the elephant in the room here because if there is no deal by tomorrow, they're threatening, as you know, to impose sanctions by the end of the month -- next month, Ashleigh.
[12:25:03] BANFIELD: That's what I keep wondering about, which is why I -- I always hear these end in extensions when they don't end in deals on those, you know, self-imposed deadlines.
I only have a couple of seconds left, but can you just tell me if they're showing their cards right now as to which of these issues is trickiest?
LABOTT: I think there are a couple of very tricky issues. One is the research and development program. Iran wants to continue to enrich uranium and do advanced nuclear research. In the end years of the deal, the international community wants to extend that throughout the duration of the 15-year deal. And also those U.N. sanctions, Iran wants them to go away on day one. International community wants to phase them out. Those are really the two sticking points. They haven't really been able to come over, Ashleigh. But as they say, in the 11th hour, the negotiations are always the toughest.
BANFIELD: Yes, well, there's always a little magic sometimes, you know. Elise Labott, thank you for all your hard work in Lausanne, Switzerland. Appreciate it.
Coming up next, back to our lead story, 20 states have religious freedom laws and there is a federal law, too, that passed with near unanimous support. So what on earth is it about Indiana that is causing people to get so fired up? And what did the people of Indiana wake up to on the front cover of "The Indianapolis Star"? That. Why that made such a big difference, coming up next.
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