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Crash of Flight 9525; Investigation into Leaks in Crash Probe; Arkansas to Pass Its Own Religious Freedom Law; Interview with Chris Kluwe. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 01, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. The CEO of Lufthansa is promising help but he's not giving victims' family members the one thing they want. That would be answers. Earlier this morning, the CEO literally turned his back on reporters, refusing to answer questions about how the airline could have allowed Andreas Lubitz to fly when it knew about his depression.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSTEN SPOHR, LUFTHANSA CEO: Merci beaucoup. Merci.

[10:00:01] UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sir, when did you find the 2009 e- mail from Lubitz? When did you find it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why did it take you so long to publish the e- mail?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no questions and answers --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: All right. Let's head to Dusseldorf, Germany for more on this and Frederik Pleitgen.

Hi, Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. Yes. Certainly a lot of people here are looking for answers. I do think that we do have to give the Lufthansa CEO the benefit of the doubt, though. I think that he might not have thought that that setting that they were in, so close to the crash site, would have been appropriate to then talk about the intricacies of this case to talk about when they discovered that e-mail and the whole process behind it.

But certainly, there are many people, Carol, who are looking for answers. And one of the things that the Lufthansa CEO said immediately after the crash when it was found out that Lubitz apparently deliberately crashed the plane, as he said Lubitz took some time off during his pilot training. It really wasn't unclear why, but then it wasn't anything that was uncommon. Of course then subsequently it came out that it was apparently around that time that he was actually still having suicidal tendencies. This is something that the state prosecutor here in Dusseldorf said.

It seems as though he had that problem under control because he then later got flight certification, but then he was under psychological treatment again this year. However, it seems as though the doctors this time around didn't think that he was suicidal and didn't think that he was a threat to others.

But certainly, there are a lot of people who want an answer as to when they actually found out that he had written an e-mail, Lubitz did, saying that he had big psychological problems in the past -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Stay right there, Fred, because I want to ask you about something else.

Also this morning, officials in the investigation are strongly denying reports that a cell phone has been recovered showing the frantic final moments of Flight 9525. Two publications, one German and one French, make the claims and say top staffers saw the video with their own eyes.

This morning, one of them spoke to CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIAN REICHELT, BILD ONLINE, EDITOR IN CHIEF: It was kind of disturbing, upsetting material. You know, it's shot in the cabin. It shows that there was, you know, a lot of chaos going on that people apparently were very much aware of where this was heading. And it also seems to document that there was kind of a metallic bang on, you know, what sounds like a metallic bang on a door which, you know, is kind of in line with, you know, results of the previous investigation that say that the pilot was trying to break into the cockpit. That is what we saw.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Fred, how credible are these reports? You know these journalists. Is this real, this video, the cell phone video? Is it real?

PLEITGEN: Well, obviously it's impossible for us to independently verify, first of all, that these guys have actually seen the video and second of all, that that video is authentic. However, that gentleman that we just had on, Julian Reichelt, who is one of the managers at the "Bild" newspaper certainly a very credible journalist, the journalist that I actually rate very highly. I've known him for long period of time.

He has big experience in places like Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq, as well, and I've talked to him about this case. And he feels very strongly that this video has been verified. Apparently, the lead on this was a French journalist called Frederic Helbert, who's someone who's been working for that "Paris Match" newspaper for a very long time. A freelancer who's very, very well-connected.

And I just want to play a little bit more of Julian's interview this morning on "NEW DAY" where he went a little bit through the vetting process of why they're so sure that what they're seeing is accurate. Let's have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REICHELT: It was kind of disturbing, upsetting material, you know, it's shot in the cabin. It shows that there was, you know, a lot of chaos going on, that people apparently were very much aware of where this was heading. It also seems to document that there was kind of a metallic bang on, you know, what sounds like a metallic bang on a door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: That's not the sound bite that we wanted to play, Carol. The one that we wanted to play showed the process that they went through to try and vet this video, to try and see whether it was real. However, of course, we do know that the French authorities have come out and they have said that they think that these reports by these two publications are untrue and the French prosecutor has also come out and said that at this point there is no cell phone video involved in this investigation, none has been used.

And he says that if anybody has cell phone video, that that needs to be turned over to authorities immediately -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Yes. And I want to read to you what that journalist said. I know that you didn't have the right bite up there. But this is what he said. This is how they vetted it.

It was, you know, shown to us by a reporter who we trust, that was been with the magazine for a while, who's a very seasoned reporter who is known for his great sources. And you know, it was shown to us that we could look at it in detail, run it through the process of verification until the point where we felt comfortable in going ahead with the story.

So another question for you, Fred, are you still there?

PLEITGEN: Yes. Sure.

COSTELLO: Why haven't these journalists turned the cell phone information over to authorities?

[10:05:03] PLEITGEN: Well, I mean, from what we're hearing from them is that they were able to view this video, but they don't actually have this video. So it's unclear how that process actually take -- took place. It doesn't necessarily mean that the video is actually in their hands. They do say that they've seen this video because I mean, keep in mind, that cell phone SIM card, if it indeed exists, if all of this is true, is obviously part of a criminal investigation and quite frankly, the most important criminal investigation that you've seen in Europe for a very long time. And so, therefore, that's certainly not something that they would want

to hang on to and especially keep away from investigators, especially since you have the French prosecutor coming out and saying if there's cell phone video out there, I need it immediately. So that's certainly something -- where they might have viewed it, I don't necessarily think that they necessarily have it in their possession if indeed they did view it -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Gotcha. Frederick Pleitgen, reporting live for us this morning. Thank you.

Let's talk a little bit more about this and more. Les Abend, he's a CNN aviation analyst and a Boeing 777 captain. And Heidi Snow, Heidi lost her fiance in the TW Flight 800 disaster and now works as a victim advocate founding Aircraft Casualty Emotional Support Services.

Welcome to both you.

HEIDI SNOW, LOST FIANCE AT TWA FLIGHT 800 DISASTER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Thank you so much.

Les, I want to start with you because as you were watching Fred's report, you seemed pretty upset, actually.

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, from two standpoints. Number one is we've been speaking about this kind of information should never be released and maybe Heidi can add to this with reference to its effect on the families.

This is a tight well-run investigation process in the field. It's a remote area. How did this -- you know, no disrespect to good journalism, but how did this information, this little cell phone card, SD card, whatever it was, get out of the hands of investigators into somewhere else? It just -- I don't see the authenticity of this whole video.

COSTELLO: It is mind-boggling, Heidi, that someone could actually find a piece of a cell phone that still could contain information. But some people say it's possible but let's get back to the human toll. This must be really hard for the families to take.

SNOW: Right. All of us at ACESS have the unenviable credentials of having lost people in air disasters. And at this point, I remember so well, personally, I lost my fiance on TWA Flight 800. And at this point, we just wanted answers. But the most important thing is to get them from a reputable source and not learn them secondhand through the press. So it's so important to have somebody in charge of the investigation relaying information to the families before it gets out into the media.

So when things like this happen, it's very difficult for the families when they're hearing information from all different sources. The most important thing is to get information directly from a reputable source, which is very challenging today with the press and all the information that comes out from all different sources. That's what develops trust. That's what makes the families feel safe. And they really need that so that they can make sense of what happened.

And at the end of the day, when -- no matter how many answers come in, we will still never know what their last moments were like. And that's what all of us at ACESS deal with. And what is different between other types of sudden loss and air disasters is the amount of time it takes to really figure out what happened. And even when we have a lot of information, we still never know, did our loved ones feel pain, did they know what was happening, were they scared?

And those are the things that we all wrestle with years later and that's really what bonds all of us at ACESS, is really not knowing what our loved ones went through at the end and that's something that we all are challenged with.

COSTELLO: Let me ask you a very difficult question. If this cell phone video is real, would some of the victims' family members want to see it?

SNOW: Everybody grieves differently. I remember with Flight 800, there were people who wanted to see the plane when it was put together again. There were other family members who did not want to do that. So it's on a case by case basis on what is healing for everybody. But the main thing is everybody at this point really does want answers and that more information they can get does help them through the process.

But there are going to be people who want that information and there are going to be other people who really are not ready for that yet. And so it's a long process. And that's why at ACESS we're there for the long haul. We're there when people go home and try to resume their lives.

Right now everybody is in a state of shock and just trying to get as much information as possible. But the future is going to be a long process for everybody because their lives are forever changed. They expected a separation of just days or weeks and suddenly their loved ones are gone forever. So this is going to be a very long process for everybody.

COSTELLO: And Les, it struck me, you know, that Lufthansa CEO went to the memorial site which is the base of the crash site and, you know, he expressed his condolences and said that the airline would do whatever it could. But when the reporters started shouting questions at him about this co-pilot, he turned his back and left.

[10:20:06] ABEND: And it seemed a little bit of a hollow act that he did. And that's what's always disturbed me, is the aspect of this man not only had issues but had issues during a training process, which in this particular case for Germanwings is part of the initial screening. So I think the break should have come to -- you know, we should have come to a stop right there and said time out, is this the individual we want to have working for our airline?

COSTELLO: All right. Les Abend and Heidi Snow, thanks to both you. I really appreciate it.

We have some breaking news right now. I don't know exactly what it is but let's go right to Germany and Frederick Pleitgen.

What have you got, Fred?

PLEITGEN: The new information that we're getting here is actually coming out of France, and that is that apparently the French National Gendarmerie, which is of course the national police there in France, is questioning the French Civil Aviation Accident Bureau, which is of course the BEA, which is in charge of investigating the crash of the Germanwings flight over media leaks. And this is specifically pertaining to a "New York Times" report and the information that we have that I've just gotten as well.

I'm going to read it to you right now. And that is that the French investigative newspaper "Le Canard Enchaine" reports that the Gendarmerie Nationale, so the national police, have questioned Remy Jouty, the head of the BEA, which is the French investigating authority, regarding leaks in the investigation specifically a report in "The New York Times" about contents of the cockpit voice recorder.

And this goes back to a report in "The New York Times" on March 25th where the "New York Times" reported that the Germanwings pilot was locked out of the cockpit just before the crash and the quote that they have was, "An investigator said evidence from a cockpit voice recorder indicated one pilot left the cockpit before the plane's descent and was unable to get back in. So that was the information of course they had at this time.

Of course, we know that the investigation here has dealt repeatedly with leaks to the media. You have this one specifically to that "New York Times" report. You have part of the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder that was leaked and published by the "Bild" newspaper of Germany. And then just recently, you have that apparent SIM card that was leaked, where that video was apparently leaked.

Of course the authorities are saying -- they say that those reports are untrue. But leaks certainly are a big problem in this very important investigation -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Frederick Pleitgen, thanks.

I'll just toss a question to you, Les. So now that leak is pretty big for an important case like this, right? So you have to wonder what the motive is for the person leaking the information. Is it because he thinks the airline is withholding information? Does he just want -- or her, we don't know, glorify themselves?

ABEND: It could be strict -- you know, sensationalizing the whole process. Here in the States if you had done that with the NTSB, you would have been -- if you were a party to the investigation, in other words you the airline, if you were the union, and you were responsible for leaking the information, and this does happen, you would be kicked off of that investigation team. You would no longer be party to that investigation. And the same structure basically exists what we're dealing with here.

COSTELLO: I'm sure. And that's why -- I wonder how long it will take them to figure it out, right?

ABEND: I don't know.

COSTELLO: We'll see.

Les Abend, thanks as well. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Arkansas, the next state to step into the religious freedom spotlight as the governor prepares to sign a bill passed by state lawmakers. Live report out of Little Rock, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:17:21] COSTELLO: As Indiana's governor seeks what he calls a fix to a controversial religious freedom law, CNN has learned that lawmakers who offered new language meant to clarify the law tomorrow. This comes as Arkansas is poised to follow in Indiana's footsteps. The Arkansas governor set to sign a similar bill into law today against a backdrop of protests that have lined the steps of the state capitol throughout the week.

In an interview with CNN, the man who sponsored the bill dismissed claims it has nothing more anything do with discrimination. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB BALLINGER (R), ARKANSAS STATE HOUSE: There's a lot of passion. They don't want to see this bill passed and so they're -- I think that a lot of times people are getting the cart out before the horse and they just don't really realize what this is. I mean, this is really a relatively minor increase in protection for what a person believes and for the most part everyone believes that an individual should be able to carry out their beliefs the way they want without government interference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN's Victor Blackwell is in Little Rock this morning.

Victor, I know you just spoke with the governor's office. What did tell you?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, we've learned from his office that in a little more than an hour from now at 11:30 Eastern, Republican Governor ASA Hutchinson will speak about this bill. Just behind me here at the capitol. He's said and his office has said that he will sign this bill. So we expect an explanation and some clarity during this news conference.

You heard there from the sponsor of the bill. But protesters who were here yesterday and will be back here this afternoon with the Human Rights Campaign and people throughout this state say that this bill opens the door to discrimination against the state's LGBT community and it's just thinly veiled by religion. There have been appeals to the governor to veto this bill from

starting with the largest private employer in this state, Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart has asked the governor to veto it. The second largest private employer in the state, Tyson Foods, has said that this bill would not impact how they treat their employees. And the mayor of this city, the capital city of Little Rock, has asked the governor to veto it as well saying that it is divisive.

And we have an interesting perspective from members of the Little Rock Nine, the nine African-American students who integrated back in 1957 to then all-white Central High School about a mile from where I'm standing. And they say -- Ernie Green and Carlotta Wallsly, let's put it up on the screen. They say, "Once again, opponents of equality are giving credence to those who had refused to serve their own neighbors under the guise of religious liberty."

They go on to say that, "We stand with our lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters as well as religious minorities and others who could fall victim to the discrimination under HB-1228 and will stand against this dangerous and derogatory legislation in its current form."

[10:20:08] Now that's important, those last three words, "in its current form," because there are questions about if there won't be some clarity, some fixes offered. We'll see if that's part of the discussion when the governor steps in front of the mike today at 11:30 Eastern. There is a protest scheduled starting just before 2:00 here on the steps of the capitol -- Carol.

COSTELLO: We'll be listening. Victor Blackwell, many thanks.

The Final Four is this weekend in Indianapolis. But don't ask Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski about the Religious Freedom Act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE KRZYZEWSKI, HEAD COACH, DUKE: I'm only going to talk about my team and basketball, and the Final Four. Just like when we get to Indiana, I'm not going to talk about social issues there or poverty or anything else. I'm just going to talk about this Duke basketball team. So -- OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But others in the sporting world are taking a stand against the law. The University of Kentucky, the defending college basketball champs are not sending its coaches. Southern Cal athletic director Pat Hayden tweeted he won't be going to a college football playoff meeting in Indiana this week in support of his son who happens to be gay. The NCAA, the NBA and NASCAR among the organizations who have condemned the legislation.

So let talk about this with former NFL player Chris Kluwe, an outspoken supporter of same-sex marriage, something he says cost him his job.

Good morning, Chris.

CHRIS KLUWE, RETIRED NFL PLAYER: Good morning. How is it going?

COSTELLO: Good. What do you make of this?

KLUWE: Well, it's really kind of disappointing that these bills are first off being passed into legislation and being signed by the governors. But at the same time, it's also kind of a heartening sign that they know they're losing this battle on civil rights. They know they're losing the fight against same-sex marriage, so they're forced to evermore desperate sort of end run-arounds to try and get past it.

And this won't stand up in the courts. The Supreme Court is going to strike this stuff down. But the problem is people will be affected by these laws until they get struck down by the Supreme Court. And that's what we need to stop.

COSTELLO: Well, you know, here we are, too, the NFL, the NCAA, the NBA, have all spoken out against the religious freedom law. Do you think the tide has finally turned in sports when it comes to gay rights?

KLUWE: I think it has. I would like to see the NFL do more as far as I know. Only Jim Irsay, the owner of the Colts, has put out a statement saying that he -- the Colts welcome all -- you know, all people regardless of who they are. And really, the thing that coaches and sporting institutions are starting to understand is that you can't just talk about athletics as if it's in some bubble because athletes live in the same world as everyone else.

And if you have a gay player, which many teams do, even if they're not openly out, if they're uncomfortable, if they feel like they're in an environment where they cannot perform to the best of their ability, well then as a coach you have failed. You're not getting 100 percent from your players. And I think more and more coaches are starting to realize that.

COSTELLO: Well, you heard what Coach K said, he refused to talk about it. He refused to talk about that, and poverty, he threw that in for some reason. Why do you think he found it so difficult to talk about this religious liberty law?

KLUWE: Well, I think a lot of coaches and players for that matter are worried that they will say the wrong thing and that they will bring undue media attention down on themselves. And so they feel it's better to just say nothing at all. I know in the NFL, we had media seminars, sort of training sessions where they would say, you know, hey, if you don't want to talk about an issue, if you feel uncomfortable talking about an issue just don't talk about it. Keep the focus on sports.

And you know, I think that that's a fair thing for athletes. Because not every athlete is going to be versed on social issues. But at the same time, if you are a superstar athlete or if you are a superstar head coach, it is your obligation to be aware of these issues because you will be asked about them and you do have a platform to talk about these things and you should be knowledgeable about it because that is the world you live in. That is your society.

COSTELLO: So Coach K should have been more forthcoming?

KLUWE: I think he should have thought about it himself. I'm sure he probably does have thoughts on it. And you know, I think that as a society we need to move past this idea that athletics is just its own little bubble that doesn't affect the rest of the world because it very much does. I mean, we're talking about the NCAA, which is a multibillion dollar institution. The Final Four is going to bring a lot of money to the state of Indiana.

And so as an employee, as someone who helps the NCAA, Coach K has an obligation to the people that are going to be making that money to say, hey, are we making this money for the right people?

COSTELLO: If Indiana doesn't change this law and makes sure this law doesn't discriminate against gays and lesbians, should the NCAA think about moving out of the city?

[10:25:03] KLUWE: Yes. I would say the NCAA should move out. The Indy 500 should move out. The NFL should move out. Both the Rookie Combine and Indiana Colts because really what this law does is it brings up essentially segregation. It's saying that if you are a member of this group it is OK for these other people to treat you poorly. And we've had that fight before. And we know how that fight ends.

We want equality as a nation. We want diversity as a nation. And I think that's why you're seeing people get so upset is because, unlike all the other RFRAs out there, Indiana's bill makes it legal for private citizens to discriminate against each other. It's not protections against the government that it gives. It's protections against other citizens that you can then use to discriminate against them. And that's what needs to be changed.

COSTELLO: Well, we'll see if -- we'll see what Governor Mike Pence does tomorrow at noon Eastern.

Chris Kluwe, thank you so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

KLUWE: Yes. Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a yoga icon now under fire for allegations of rape and sexual assault. Up next, CNN's exclusive interview with the yoga guru.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: To his fans, he's a fitness icon. Now the man behind Bikram yoga or hot yoga is facing a host of scathing allegations from some of his female clients.

[10:30:00] They say Bikram Choudhury preyed on vulnerable women, demanded sex, and then when he was turned down he raped or sexually assaulted them.

Now for the first time the yoga guru is sharing his side of the story.