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ISIS Pushed Back in Iraq; Arkansas Religion Bill Raises Controversy; Flight 9525 Investigation Continues. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 01, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:03] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: This is really up close now, a different vantage point of the remains and really the wreckage, as these recovery crews are pulling these pieces out.

This is where these investigators say a co-pilot may have intentionally steered a plane into a deep mountainside. And it was right here amid this wreckage that just this incredible discovery was also said to have been made, this card, this memory card from a cell phone discovered amid this debris capturing the final moments of the crash from inside the cabin.

Now, let's be clear. We talked to French officials. They say no. They're denying those claims. They say they have the cell phones from the wreckage, but that actual footage does not exist. When you talk to the editor of this German tabloid "Bild," he says yes there's video and he's seen it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIAN REICHELT, "BILD": We saw the video with our colleagues at "Paris Match" and it was kind of disturbing, upsetting material. It's shot in the cabin. It shows that there was a lot of chaos going on, that people were apparently very much aware of where this was heading.

It also seems to document that there was kind of metallic bang on -- what sounds like a metallic bang on a door, which is kind of in line with the results of the previous investigation that say that the pilot was trying to break into the cockpit. That is what we saw.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This wasn't his only revelation. He's also claiming that this 27-year-old co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, didn't just lie to the airline, but that he lied to doctors as well, telling them he wasn't flying at the time, that he was off-duty. He wanted to get back in the cockpit, but he wasn't there.

CNN's Will Ripley is in Haltern, Germany, with more on all of this.

And let's just begin, Will, with what exactly are French officials saying about all these claims about this "Bild" editor?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Certainly, they are denying that the leak came from them. But these leaks, and there's been a lot of them, Brooke, they are coming from somewhere. These tabloids have been very aggressive in working sources. There

are rumors there's been money thrown around in this investigation. Either -- whether that's true or not, we do know that somebody is releasing a lot of information that those at the head of the investigation didn't want released.

And the fact remains, they have recovered a number of different cell phones from the site. If they haven't analyzed the contents of them yet, they can't say that footage doesn't exist, because if it hasn't gone to the lab yet, they don't know. If they have a number of phones, they could find a number of videos that could be clues in this investigation.

But, of course, the last thing they want, Brooke, is for those videos to be released and have more really painful details coming out in the public just adding to already heart-wrenching situations for the families of the people on the plane.

BALDWIN: Let's focus on the families. We sent you to Haltern, Germany, because this is where those high schoolers are from, this one town losing 16 students. I have talked to you enough to know that even the German parents were already in the airport awaiting their young sons and daughters' return. Tell me about the memorial service today.

RIPLEY: Oh, it was so hard to look into the faces of the people in this town today because you could see the grief that they feel.

Even those that didn't personally know the students, although there are a lot of people in this town of 38,000 people who knew either the students or they knew their parents. They knew the two teachers who were on board. And so we saw hundreds of people gather in the town square at the church behind me. Those who couldn't fit inside the church, it was 600 full capacity, they stood outside and they listened. And people were sobbing. The skies opened up. There was wind and there was sleet.

People stayed out there through the end, because they wanted the families to know they are behind them, that they are grieving with them and that they're also angry that these young people were put on a plane and that there was a 27-year-old co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, who was allowed to pilot this plane alone, with a history of psychological problems and someone that decided he was going to take his own life and he was going to take the lives of 149 other innocent people along with him.

BALDWIN: Will Ripley, thank you so much.

Will brings up a great point, just this young man's medical history here and all the questions and the consequences of what he did tell some of his doctors and what he didn't.

I talked to our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, about some of these new revelations. Here's what he shared with me.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BALDWIN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta with me here.

Just broadening this out, this whole story we have been watching with this co-pilot, this 27-year-old, made me want to talk to you, because as a neurosurgeon, obviously you deal with doctor-patient confidentiality issues, and when you see a patient, I imagine you're evaluating him or her a bit. At what point do you ever think, I need to wave the red flag?

[15:05:03] DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's interesting.

First of all, I often ask a lot of questions about who this person is, the idea of what they do for a living, what sort of job they have. Are they someone who is a laborer? Are they someone who does take other people's lives into their hands? You have -- usually have some idea. It's rare that a physician wouldn't know at all what their patient does for a living and what kind of life they have.

Waving the red flag is a big deal, though, which I think is what you're alluding to.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

GUPTA: Waving the red flag, am I concerned the person is going to hurt themselves, am I concerned the person is going to hurt others?

A lot of times, I'm not sure about that. And so what I will do and I think a lot of our colleagues will do is, I will bring in a mental health professional. There are times when I will say this person should see a psychiatrist and they should see a psychiatrist now, literally having a psychiatrist come down to the office where I'm seeing the patient to do a mental health eval to try and make some idea, should the patient be admitted to the hospital? In some way, should there be some treatment that is given immediately?

Because it's not just about alerting the other people. It's about trying to help the patient in front of me.

BALDWIN: But then it's complicated because I imagine there's only so much you can do as far as follow-up, because heard today from this German tabloid "Bild," this editor of the tabloid saying this guy actually said to his doctor semi-recently, no, I'm not flying, I'm unfit to fly. I'm trying to get back into the cockpit, which wasn't true.

GUPTA: And that makes it very challenging. You have to -- we talk about self-reporting on questionnaires and all that.

Self-reporting is part of the whole physician-patient relationship. There has to be some leaps of faith when it comes to what the patient is telling you. You can get as much data, objective data from testing and looking at blood and all that as possible. But to the end, the patient has to tell you what's actually going on inside their minds. And I and other doctors have to make an evaluation. Are they telling

me the truth? And, B, if they are telling me the truth, are they a risk in any way to themselves or to others? It's not easy for me, it's not easy for even mental health professionals.

BALDWIN: Does it surprise you -- and I want to ask you because you're in one of those professions where you have do people's lives in your hands, as do airplane pilots. But with regard to pilots, knowing they have to pass this medical assessment, and they do have physical upkeeps, but there's no mandatory mental health check once you become a pilot.

To your point, you have to self-report. Do you think that's enough?

GUPTA: It's not enough, but it's -- the way the system has evolved is for reasons that I think may be surprising to people. It's not because people don't think we should do more.

I think anybody, whether it's pilots, bus drivers, doctors, cab drivers, a lot of people carry other people's lives in their hands on a regular basis. The problem, Brooke -- and we have been reporting on this for so long -- is that there's so much stigma attached to this, by simply raising the issue, you could potentially lose your job. By simply raising the issue, you could be stigmatized, not only by your employer, but by so many others.

BALDWIN: Right.

GUPTA: Until that changes, the idea that self-reporting could lead to irreparable detrimental harm to me or to anybody else, that's the way it is, that's truth for so many people out there.

BALDWIN: I was thinking about you, because as someone that goes into the O.R., and someone's life is right there in front of you. If, heaven forbid, something happened in your personal life that would just make you absent emotionally for whatever reason, it would ultimately be up to you to say time-out, guys, I can't perform this surgery today. Right? What is that sort of safety check for you?

GUPTA: It's such an important question.

Let me distinguish just two points quickly. One is that somebody is mentally not fit, is not present. And two is that, as part of not being mentally fit, they want to hurt somebody. Those two things don't necessarily go hand and hand. Right? There's a lot of people who have mental illness who do not have any desire to hurt anybody. They're just -- they're so depressed, they're so anxious that they're not themselves.

That doesn't mean they're necessarily going to hurt people. But if I were a surgeon in an operating room and I felt that way, perhaps the residents around me, the nurses around me might notice that I'm not in that particular position. I'd have to take myself out of the game initially.

But if I didn't do that, you do to some extent see if other people around you might be able to notice this. I work with medical professionals. So, they may have a better shot at it. This guy is a pilot. You can't lay at the feet of another pilot or crew members to have noticed any of these things. They're just simply not trained to do that. It's challenging.

BALDWIN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.

GUPTA: You go it. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Now breaking news this afternoon in the nuclear talks between United States and Iran. One self-imposed deadline passed. Another was today, until now. We got just word of a big development there. We will explain.

Also, ISIS claims Saddam Hussein's hometown is one of its biggest victories. But now Iraq says they have got it back.

[15:10:06] Why this could be a huge game-changer and lead to more victories for the Iraqi government.

Also, are you ready for this? As Indiana works to fix its religious freedom law, one angle you probably haven't heard. Let me lay this on you. The First Church of Cannabis wants to open as a result of this law. We will speak with the founder, the so-called minister of love, about what he wants to do. Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The war on ISIS and this battle for Tikrit, Iraq's prime minister says his military forces have now taken back Saddam Hussein's hometown, with the help of Shiite soldiers and also a little help from Iran, but pockets of resistance still remain.

The prime minister walked through this liberated area just north of Baghdad. Here he was waving the flag, congratulating his security forces. Even in the streets, there were soldiers jumping up and down and celebrating here. This takeover makers a significant victory for the Iraqi government, but the danger is not over.

[15:15:12] CNN senior international correspondent Arwa Damon and her crew, they were on the ground in this battle-torn city where ISIS is said to have left explosive booby traps. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the main road leading through Tikrit. This is the center of the city.

That building, we were told, had a suicide bomber in it, a sniper on the roof. There are still various gunshots that you do hear. Pockets of resistance still exist, that, the governor's compound. Now, when the Iraqi forces went inside, one of the majors was telling us, it was booby-trapped.

The stairway had explosives in it. And one of their officers stepped, it detonated. Two officers were killed, another three soldiers wounded inside there. And if we swing around a bit more, you still see smoke rising and you see plumes of smoke throughout the entire city.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: And I have got Arwa now. She's out of Tikrit. She's back in Baghdad.

But let me ask you, just seeing you talking about some of the gunfire and the booby traps, obviously, it was risky for you and your crew to bring the story of Tikrit to the world. Tell me what else you saw.

DAMON: Those plumes of smoke there, Brooke, we were told that those were caused by homes, buildings that were on fire.

These were homes that had been booby-trapped as well by ISIS fighters. There were a number of occasions when, as this force was moving through, they would open the door of a building and it would have been rigged to blow and crumble on top of the force trying to enter it.

To try to bypass that, on some occasions, they actually had to crawl through windows because that they would then prevent them from opening the front door, and they could defuse the bomb from the inside. A lot of the smoke we were seeing from inside controlled detonations that were taking place or in some cases they had to actually blow these bombs up in place.

But throughout the entire city, you just see these massive scenes of destruction. This is a predominantly Sunni city. The force moving through it, aside from Iraqi security forces, is mainly made up of these Iranian-backed militias. And there had been some concern about retaliatory attacks that could possibly take place.

Now, that, we didn't see. There weren't really any civilians there. But what we did see around one corner was a group of these militias with some Iraqi policemen alongside them dancing with a severed head, said to be that of an ISIS fighter who had actually been detained, was then shot and decapitated.

And it's behavior like that Iraqi government officials say, Iraqi security forces, senior commanders say they cannot necessarily control. And that is why there's such concern that, moving forward, when the city is trying to be secured, when this force moves into other parts of the country, this could end up having an even more greater sectarian dynamic to it than already exists.

BALDWIN: It's phenomenal that you and our crew were able to get in. But to your point, pockets of resistance, the key is holding on, and obviously knowing the geography, this is on the road to Mosul. Arwa Damon, thank you so much in Baghdad now. Appreciate it very much.

Next, another religious freedom bill in Arkansas getting a huge response. And it's not just protesters. Wal-Mart is speaking out against the proposal.

Also, one man saw the religious freedom law in Indiana a tad differently and is starting the First Church of Cannabis. The so- called minister of love joins me live straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:00] BALDWIN: All right. Protesters, they are back out in Arkansas today. They're rallying against this religious freedom bill they say leaves the door open for discrimination against gays and lesbians, this even after the state's Republican governor this morning made it clear today he will not sign the bill until it mirrors that of the federal law, until those changes are made.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON (R), ARKANSAS: My responsibility is to speak out on my own convictions and to do what I can as governor to make sure this bill reflects the values of the people of Arkansas, protects those of religious conscience, but also minimizes the chance of discrimination in the workplace and in the public environment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Among those who wanted this bill and its iteration, current iteration to go away was a little store down the road in Bentonville, Arkansas. You have heard of it, Wal-Mart. Big business obviously a huge story in Arkansas, as it was in the state of Indiana.

I want to bring in our chief Washington correspondent and host OF "THE LEAD," Jake Tapper, just to sort of walk through also what we have seen in Arkansas as recently as this morning and what we have been watching in Indiana.

I was talking to a state rep in Arkansas a little while ago. She said it's hard to imagine that big business and specifically Wal-Mart, powerhouse retail giant Wal-Mart...

(CROSSTALK)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: The biggest employer in the United States of America.

BALDWIN: When they say you need to make a change, maybe that's part of what made the governor listen.

TAPPER: Look, there are a lot of times when social conservatives and fiscal conservatives differ.

You see it in immigration reform all the time and you see it here with this law. And fiscal conservatives, many of them business conservatives, want to make money. It doesn't make any sense to them to be telling people in any way, whether intentional or not, our state stands for discrimination.

Now, some say that's not what the law does, et cetera, although legal analysts say it does possibly open the door to that. You already have people talking about boycotting, people instilling boycotts of the state of Indiana.

[15:25:02] BALDWIN: Right.

TAPPER: Why would Arkansas want to open themselves up to the same thing?

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

I think it's also interesting, and I just wanted your take on this as well. I was wondering about this yesterday. You have one of the talking points for some of the supporters of the law in Indiana kept hearkening back to Bill Clinton and also Barack Obama, then senator, when they signed this in Illinois. Obviously, as we have gone through, there are differences, right, in those laws.

But I find it interesting because these Republicans normally want to tear those people down. In this instance they're using them to say, well, hey, if Bill Clinton and Barack Obama signed this, what about that?

TAPPER: Look, it's a fair point. Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act into law. He's now repudiated that. And President Obama held a position on same-sex marriage that he no longer publicly holds.

BALDWIN: He evolved, right.

TAPPER: So, evolved is his word for it. People change, and you're talking about a law that was signed in the '90s, and then state Senator Obama supported the law.

But the contexts are different; the contexts are different because Illinois, for example, has legal same-sex marriage. Indiana, Arkansas do not. And, second of all, as you point out, these laws are drafted differently. And I don't want to bore the viewers with all the details, but one of them has to do with whether or not it's the religious rights of an individual vs. the religious rights of a business.

And another one has to do with whether or not the government has to be part of this dispute. Is the government telling you to do something? That's the federal law that President Clinton signed. This has to do with two individuals. It doesn't necessarily have to have a government playing a role.

BALDWIN: Hearing from people in Governor Hutchinson's office in Arkansas, apparently, he was scheduled to sign this thing this morning.

TAPPER: He said he was going to sign it. Yes.

BALDWIN: He was going to sign it. And I have to wonder if everything that percolated in Indiana made him sort of stop and think, say, you know what? Maybe I will tweak it a bit and make it look like the federal law. TAPPER: Here's the other thing. You have to remember, no one holds

anyone more responsible for the economy of a state than the governor. The governor is held responsible for the economy of a state.

In six months, we're going to be talking about something else. In six days, we're going to be talking about something else. But the economy of our Arkansas is always going to be what Governor Hutchinson is judged on. If all of a sudden there are big boycotts, if all of a sudden -- and I'm not saying anybody has proposed this -- but if all of a sudden Wal-Mart announced that they were start moving headquarters out of Bentonville -- that's not on the table, I want to point out -- Hutchinson would be held responsible.

And nobody would even be talking about this law and this moment. They'd be talking about, oh, my God, we're losing jobs, we're losing jobs. That's the bottom line for somebody like Governor Hutchinson.

BALDWIN: Right. Right. OK. Coming full circle as it pertains to jobs, and economy and the responsibility of the governor.

See you at the top of the hour, sir.

TAPPER: All right. Good to see you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you very much.

Indiana, on that notion, Indiana's lawmakers are busy trying to make changes to the state's controversial religious freedom law as we were sort of outlining there. And, as you know, Indiana's Republican governor, Mike Pence, wants it fixed after huge public backlash that he admitted caught even him by surprise.

Pence probably though never expected this. There is a new church that is all about cannabis. It was established last Thursday, on the same day Governor Pence signed the new law. The church's Facebook page now already has more than 16,000 likes. It has raised more than $4,500 on its GoFundMe page. The church hopes to raise $20,000.

I have got Bill Levin. He's the founder of the First Church of Cannabis. He joins me live from Indianapolis. Also with me from our nation's capital, our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

BILL LEVIN, FOUNDER, FIRST CHURCH OF CANNABIS: Hi.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Brooke.

Thank you for having us on.

BALDWIN: All right. This is going to be good.

Bill Levin, I know you describe yourself as the minister of love. I'm going to stick with Bill here. But let's begin with your job duties. What do they look like with this church? LEVIN: Well, right now, answering a lot of interviews, doing a lot of

office paperwork, looking for a brick-and-mortar building. This snowballed a little bit more than I thought.

BALDWIN: Brick-and-mortar, perhaps hempcrete? I was reading about this church. You want it to be built using hempcrete, a combination of hemp and concrete.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

LEVIN: Oh, no, no, no. Right.

Originally, I was going to go out and lease a building for a year. And that's why we were raising the money. I figured we'd need about $20,000 to lease a building, and pay the gas and electric. And during that time, we would investigate getting hempcrete legal in our state as a building material, and we would build the first t-hemp-l. That's t-hemp-l.

We need a t-hemp-l here in the country.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I'm so glad you jumped in and explained that to me.

So, the temple with the hempcrete. You want members to tithe $4.20 a month. That's $4.20. You say cannabis is listed as the church's sacrament in its doctrine.

Toobin, I hear your laughter.

But let me just be serious for a minute. To the meat of this, you're creative, sir. Why do you want to establish this church?