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Kenya University Gunmen Targeted Christians; Iran's President Hails Historic Nuke Deal; Missing Sailor Rescued after 66 Days Adrift; "Finding Jesus": The Other Mary. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired April 03, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, I'm up against the clock, but I want both of you to weigh in on this quickly. Do you think that, you know, that getting a lot of the information online, do you think that there's some real information to be gotten here from investigators or are these sort of lone wolves?

First to you -- Bill.

[10:30:00] BILL GAVIN, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI: I think that probably they radicalized online and then they decided to become lone wolf kind of individuals. I don't think any of them, either one of these two women, had the inclination to go overseas and do anything like that. They decided they would do it on their own. They had no contact, from what I understand, at this particular point in time. They had no direct contact with ISIS.

LEMON: Agreed.

ROBERT MCFADDEN, FORMER NCIS: Great points Bill makes. And to your question, Don, absolutely there's information to be gained because, you know, there's -- the investigation going to the trial is one thing but every one of these instances represents a case study on how you mitigate these situations.

LEMON: All right. Bill Gavin, Robert McFadden, thank you very much, gentlemen.

Still to come -- anguish after a horrific attack in Kenya. What we're learning about the man allegedly behind this massacre.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Survivors now recounting the massacre at a Kenyan college. The small town of Garissa is in anguish right now. Yesterday militants raided the school killing 147 people. Witnesses say the target was Christians.

The terror group al Shabaab has claimed responsibility. And we're learning more about exactly how the gunmen stormed through the campus going from the schools gates straight to classrooms and the dorms reportedly bypassing the mosque, knowing Muslims were in morning prayer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Started jumping up and down, running for

their lives. But it's unfortunate that where they were going to is where the gunshots were coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:35:02] LEMON: A manhunt is still underway for the suspected mastermind Mohamed Mohamud.

My next guest says that the school in Kenya was an easy target. Bob Baer is a CNN intelligence security analyst and the former CIA operative -- a former CIA operative.

Bob, you know, you've compared this attack to the one last month at the Bardo Museum. Was this a copycat attempt?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE SECURITY ANALYST: A copycat yes in the sense it's a vulnerable target. Security there wasn't much of -- it was a typical attack. It was a car bomb, armed guys, trained, probably combat experience, I would imagine, and prepared to give up their lives.

These targets like the Bardo Museum are indefensible. Once you defend something like the museum in Tunisia or this university, they simply move to the next target. I mean how do you protect all of the vulnerable targets in Kenya? You simply can't.

And they know it. They think they're getting more adherence. They want to bring this war to Kenya hoping that Kenya pulls troops out of Somalia. That's to be seen but, you know, a country like Kenya is under constant threat.

LEMON: Yes. You know, as I said the group al Shabaab claiming responsibility for this. The alleged mastermind Mohamed Mohamud -- a quick look at what we know about him. We know he has some aliases. He's a member of al Shabaab 15 years.

Police say he served as a principal at an Islamic school in Garissa. That was between 1997 and 2000. He also has a track record of alleged attacks.

So Bob, there's a huge bounty on his head. How significant is it that authorities are going after this guy?

BAER: I think it's significant, you know, in the sense of disrupting the organization. But at the end of the day, these guys can, you know, anybody from the ranks can rise up and take over leadership, assassination either by drone or otherwise just isn't going to defeat this group.

This is an ideology that we're fighting and these things usually burn themselves out as opposed to political murder. It's not going to work at the end, you know. I just don't think it will.

LEMON: So fill us in here on the timing of this and the militants singling out Christians -- Bob. BAER: Well, You know, I tie all of these groups together,

whether the Islamic state, or al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula. They are Sunni Muslims who believe they're on the defensive. They're fighting for their survival. They all look at a battle like Tikrit which they've lost and they say, well if we can't strike back in Iraq we'll strike back in Kenya or there was a refugee camp near Damascus that was taken over by the Islamic state.

So we'll see them, you know, lose battles, major battles but then they'll pop up somewhere else. And they don't care where because they want to carry on the struggle. I call it a disease, a virus, whatever you want. They don't need a central control. They just need weapons and they need people prepared to die.

LEMON: Unfortunate enough to survive this -- unfortunate enough to witness this but fortunate enough to survive. Some are now describing that attack to the media. Victims found with their face down, shot in the back of their heads. Talk to us about the brutality of this event, Bob.

BAER: Well, I mean that is -- that precisely is the brutality that they're after. They want to kill as many people as they can. They want to make a statement. They want to destroy, you know, any sense of security in a place like Kenya. And by slaughter is the way they think they can do it and also a purified sense of determination for Islam.

This is an Islam based in Saudi Arabia but it's been adopted by these people and they just think the purity and the violence will lead to their survival.

LEMON: All right. Bob Baer -- thank you very much.

You know, from Kenya to Iran now, just moments ago Iran's president delivered a national address on the breakthrough in the U.S.-led nuclear talks with this country.

CNN's Phil Black has been listening to Hassan Rouhani's speech. He joins us now live from London. What did he say -- Phil?

PHIL BLACK, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, he really praised this agreement that has been reached, spoke in very glowing, very favorable terms and took considerable credit for it, too, and said that this was something that he had begun when -- a process that he and his government had begun when he was first elected and this is the latest step in that.

He talked about how this agreement shows the world now acknowledges and accepts that Iran has a peaceful nuclear enrichment program. It should result in the lifting of the sanctions. And it shows that Iran is able to cooperate with the world.

He said and seemed to acknowledge that even within Iran there is considerable debate over how Iran should engage with the rest of the world. He said you don't have to fight a war, nor do you have to capitulate. There is a third way and this is it, cooperation. [10:40:08] And crucially he talked about the Iranian Supreme

Leader's role -- the Supreme Leader being even the president's boss in Iran, his role in this whole process and he described that as indispensable suggesting that really this agreement -- this framework agreement has the support -- has support from the very top of the Iranian leadership -- Don.

LEMON: Phil Black in London. Phil -- thank you.

Still to come, a missing sailor reunited with his family after more than two months stranded at sea. His incredible story of survival is next.

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LEMON: An incredible story of survival: after spending more than two months stranded at sea a sailor is back on dry land. You can see him here walking remarkably off a rescue chopper. Very lucky.

Nick Valencia is in Norfolk, Virginia covering the story for us. You spoke to him just hours after his rescue. What's up?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I talked to him at the hospital just a few hours after he was rescued. It was a very emotional reunion he had there with his father. He was, as you can imagine Don, a little bit overwhelmed with all the attention that he's getting.

And while there are still some questions about the details of his experience I asked the Coast guard yesterday if they had any reason to be suspicious about his story? They said, no. As a matter of fact they said it was so remarkable that he was able to survive out there in what was very likely frigid temperatures.

When I spoke to 37-year-old Louis Jordan, I asked him how he made it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOUIS JORDAN, SURVIVED 66 DAYS AT SEA: Well, I was living on my boat. When I got hungry, I just threw my cast net and caught some fish, brought them in (inaudible) to fry them up. Free food, free rent, living in the water.

[10:45:02] I took my sail boat out to the ocean to go fishing and my sail boat got capsized, turned all the way around and I had broken my shoulder. You see my collar bone here. You see my collarbone here? It has a big knot in it that shouldn't be there. So I have this big bruise here and I couldn't tear my mast right away. I had to wait quite a while for the shoulder to heal.

I was running out of water, drinking a pint a day for a very long time, rationing that water, almost out, almost out. Finally God answered my prayer. Rain poured in and that water kept me going.

(END VIDEO CLIP) VALENCIA: His intention initially was to go out there to try to

go to the Gulfstream to catch bigger fish. He had been working in the marina and he said the fish stopped coming. He wanted to go out for a bigger adventure which led to the question -- Don. I asked him was this an intended trip into the unknown? He says that's really what life was about.

He really didn't answer the question. He specifically spoke more in abstracts and said that the bible and God really got him through it all. And that ultimately he's just really happy to be alive. He had his first meal yesterday. We caught up with him just after that. He was very happy to be eating some barbecue ribs and be back on land.

LEMON: No fish for him. He wanted some red meat. Nick Valencia -- thank you very much. Appreciate your reporting.

All right. Here we go politicos. For all of you who are interested. This breaking news has to do with Hillary Clinton and whether or not she is going to run in 2016. Here's what CNN has learned. And it's just coming over. And I'm reading it.

It's from CNN's Jeff Zeleny and Jed Rose (ph). Hillary Clinton's has signed a lease in Brooklyn to house her 2016 presidential headquarters as a source familiar with the lease has confirmed to CNN. Hillary Clinton has signed a lease in Brooklyn believing it's going to be the place that's going to house her 2016 presidential campaign -- the headquarters at least.

It's -- the headquarters will be run out of 1 Pierpont Plaza in Brooklyn Heights. Brooklyn -- a hot place right now. First reported -- the information coming from Politico on Friday, the New York borough has been widely expected to host a Democratic front-runner's campaign operation -- and so on and on.

Of course you know Hillary Clinton was a senator from here in New York. But again, according to our reporters, Jeff Zeleny and Jed Rose our producer in Washington, Hillary Clinton's campaign signing a lease in Brooklyn to house her 2016 presidential campaign -- now you know. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:23] LEMON: Today is Good Friday. Happy Good Friday, everyone.

Christians around the world are commemorating the crucifixion of Jesus. According to scripture Mary Magdalene was present at the crucifixion and the resurrection. On this Easter Sunday, CNN's "FINDING JESUS" explores Mary Magdalene's role.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's this incredibly touching, intimate moment of recognition between these two people -- teacher and the student. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must hold on to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing she wanted to do is to hug the person she followed and loved. And so Jesus had to tell her I'm not ready yet to be clung to.

Mary Magdalene is the first one to whom the risen Christ appears, so she is of immense importance to Christianity. For that hour or two, Mary Magdalene was the only one who knew about the resurrection and so Mary Magdalene was the church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For all her central role at the time of the resurrection, Mary then disappears from the story of the early church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the great mysteries of early Christianity is what happened to Mary Magdalene because there she is on the pages of the gospels in all the key moments at the end of his life, at the tomb and experiencing the resurrection and then we don't hear any more about her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This whole series is fascinating. Michael McKinley joins me now. He is the co-author of "Finding Jesus: faith, fact, forgery -- six holy objects that tell the remarkable story of the gospel". So tell us about Mary Magdalene. What is she to Jesus? What was her role?

MICHAEL MCKINLEY, CO-AUTHOR, "FINDING JESUS": She's really interesting -- Don. I mean she comes from a town called Magdala which was a thriving fishing village at the time of Jesus and also known for its (inaudible) works. So that's where she comes from. And she's identified in the gospel as one of the women who supported him with their own resources so she has money.

She likes his message and when you think about Jesus and the 12 guys traveling all over the holy land they've got to eat, they've got to sleep places and they need to get, you know, new sandals and things like that. Somebody has to pay the bills.

And these women were doing it. And she was principal among them.

LEMON: This has been a bit of a mystery. There's a piece of papyrus that seems to have Jesus referring to his wife. How much credence do scholars give that? Was Mary Magdalene his wife?

MCKINLEY: I think the history and fiction is not done a great service by reducing her to simply that. I think that the more interesting question is she -- by the time of the Middle Ages is known as the apostle to the apostles. She's really essential in the conveyance of his message and not just the pastor's wife, if you will, you know.

And so I think that people who consider her seriously are looking at what actually was her ministerial role in the ministry of Jesus.

LEMON: Did she help fund his mission, giving donations and resources?

MCKINLEY: She did, yes. She -- and the other one was Johanna who was married to Herod's steward. They guy who managed Herod's household. So she had palace connections and money. Mary Magdalene had money and they helped not only fund the mission but help it spread.

LEMON: Michael McKinley -- thank you. It's fascinating.

MCKINLEY: Thank you.

LEMON: Make sure you watch. You can find out much, much more about Mary Magdalene. Watch the final episode of the CNN series "FINDING JESUS" Easter Sunday, 9:00 p.m. Again thanks to Michael McKinley.

Let's get back now to our breaking news. The race for the White House and Hillary Clinton just signing a lease for a campaign headquarters in Brooklyn.

[10:55:02] Straight to our senior digital correspondent for CNN politics Mr. Chris Moody, live in Washington, following all the developments. What do you know?

CHRIS MOODY, CNN SENIOR DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she has signed a lease for an office in Brooklyn, as you just mentioned. And that suggests to us that the campaign announcement is coming up very soon. There are FEC rules that say you have to announce the campaign once you engage in activities like this. So we're probably anticipating a campaign announcement coming up.

I think there's a lot of benefits to having an office in a place that's connected to a major media center, obviously. New York City, it's very easily accessible to a lot of campaign volunteers that can come in on all the transit lines and get there easily to put in a couple of hours of phone banking.

And also close to her old political network as a senator of New York. The only negatives I can think of at this time is really the expense. In order to have a thriving, large, campaign staff people are not necessarily paid a lot of money on campaigns and New York is a very expensive place to be. Also the rent. But I think the Clinton campaign -- or excuse me -- the presumed Clinton campaign is anticipating that the benefits are really going to outweigh that negative here.

LEMON: She said that she was going to make an announcement sometime in early April. It's early April now. So it would be coming up on that time for her to do it.

And also, you know, you mentioned benefits of being here in New York. She's the former senator from New York -- right. It's easy to get around there's mass public transportation that's excellent. But also the Democratic National Convention is pitching Brooklyn for 2016 as well. MOODY: There has been a lot of talk about that. They're looking

at that area. And that I think would make sense in a lot of ways. Brooklyn of course is known as a hip part of New York -- a lot of young people there. And again, having the access to the major media center could be a really good way to get the message out into the country.

LEMON: And let's not forget about Manhattan, New York City as a whole, as a matter of fact, because the Clinton Foundation, her husband's foundation but it's her namesake is in Manhattan, in Harlem, specifically just a few blocks from my home. So New York really -- it makes sense that she would have her campaign headquarters in New York City.

MOODY: It's a place that they know well through their foundation work as well as her time as senate -- the political network is all there. You go to where your people are.

LEMON: All right, Chris Moody, thank you very much.

There you go, Hillary Clinton signing a lease in Brooklyn, supposedly to be her campaign headquarters for 2016. Stay tuned.

Step away from the plate. Doctors reportedly telling the Pope to cut the carbs. Does he really have a pasta problem? Here's CNN's Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nobody likes being told to put down their fork, so imagine how the Pope felt when he was allegedly told --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lay off the pasta.

MOOS: Lay off the pasta? Who wants to be the one to tell the Pope that?

The Italian press agency reported that doctors told Pope Francis to eat less pasta and get more exercise. Vatican observers say that since he became Pope, Francis has grown not just in stature but in size. It's hard to tell given what a pontiff wears or maybe it's the Vatican Swiss guard's vertical stripes that make the Pope look bigger.

He got some non-medical advice from the spaghetti-eating Cardinal Dolan on the "Today" show.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: Listen, Holy Father. You said you always listen to your cardinals. Listen to me. Get a new doctor.

MOOS: The Italian press agency reports doctors want the Pope to eat pasta just two days per week. But is it OK for him to eat pizza delivered directly to his Pope mobile? This after Francis said he missed stepping out unrecognized to get pizza.

This is a Pope who's been immortalized in cake, immortalized in chocolate. Who knew chocolate could look so slimming?

The Pope is known to suffer from lower back pain and sciatica, conditions worsened by weight.

Officially, the Vatican had no comment. Unofficially, we hear the Pope's doctor denied talking to the press.

Still, size doesn't stop the pontiff from being a non-magnet.

"They are going to eat him alive," commented the cardinal.

A weight loss clinic director once held a five pound model of fat to make a point about pasta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you like it or not to wear?

MOOS: This Pope could wear anything and people would still go crazy.

At least there's plenty of him for a kid to hold on to.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Oh, poor Pope. You got to stop handing him the pizzas in line. Just giving him pizza. No pasta for you, Pope. We got to keep you healthy.

Have a great Easter, everyone. Thanks for joining me today. I'm Don Lemon.

"AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND BOLDUAN" starts right now.

[11:00:09] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: New jobs numbers are out and already being called a big miss. What happened and what does it --