Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Two Women Survive Kenya Massacre; Saudi Arabia Leading Air Campaign In Yemen; U.N. Security Council Discusses Fighting In Yemen; Investigators Have Left Germanwings Crash Site; Trapped Family Pulled From Burning RV; "Furious 7" On Pace To $150 Million Opening; Indiana, Arkansas Revise "Religious Freedom" Laws; Former Governor Huckabee Weighs In On Indiana Law; Tsarnaev Defense Planting Seeds Of Doubt?; Final Four Action Tips Off Today. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired April 04, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: -- Germanwings crash site in the Alps, and we're learning stunning new details about the actions of that co-pilot in the days leading up to the fatal crash.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your car off of it!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The race to save a family trapped in the back of an RV as it goes up in flames. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Hello again, everyone and thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

We start with another breathtaking story of survival from this week's massacre in Kenya. A 19-year-old hid in a closet, buried in clothes, drinking body lotion for hydration. And today Cynthia is out of hiding, safe, and we'll hear from her in a moment.

And today Kenya's president declared three days of mourning for the 147 victims most of them students. This as al-Shabaab terrorists issuing a new warning they are not done with their killing spree.

They're vowing that Kenya's cities will, quote, "run red with blood." Let's bring in CNN's Christian Purefoy in Garrissa, Kenya. So Christian, tell us more about Cynthia's ordeal and then also deal with the continuing threat.

CHRISTIAN PUREFOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, it's at times of absolute horror like this, you try to look for some sort of hope. And after 48 hours in the top of a cupboard under blankets in what must have been just darkness, 19-year-old Cynthia as found by the military this morning. Now, when we met her, she was still in a great deal of shock, but here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA CHEROITICH, SURVIVED AL-SHABAAB COLLEGE ATTACK: And then I decided to go to the wardrobe. In the wardrobe, we have small rooms. And then I covered myself with the clothes. And then these people were in our room. And then they found others who had hidden themselves. They told them to go out.

And when they were outside now, they told if you don't know how to read to them in the Muslim, whatever, and then you lie down. And then if you know, you go to the other side.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PUREFOY: Now, Cynthia told us that she closed her eyes, but she could still hear all of this going on. Her friends were being told to lie flat on the ground, Fredricka. And we spoke to one medic who went in after the military to tell us what happened next.

He said he saw gunshots to the back of some people's heads. So, you know, although there is hope, there is still such horror and more stories we're sure coming out.

Now, Cynthia was in such shock that the military, when they found her, they had to bring in the principal to the screen of the crime to tell her it's OK. Cynthia, these people are not here to harm you -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Christian, thank you so much. Meantime, the president there and others still responding, saying they are trying to be vigilant because the threat from al-Shabaab continues there.

Meantime, an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council is under way in Yemen, and the International Red Cross is calling for a 24-hour cease-fire so it can bring in aid.

All of this as new pictures appeared to show an al Qaeda leader in one of the presidential palaces. CNN cannot confirm the authenticity of these photos. Khalid Batarfi and more than 200 others were freed from prison by al Qaeda militants early in the week.

CNN's Nic Robertson is near the Yemen/Saudi Arabia border with more on this. How serious is this prison break? All right, it looks like we lost Nic Robertson there. We'll try it again a bit later.

All right, meantime, the Red Cross is not alone in calling for this break in the fighting in Yemen. Russia called the emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, hoping to get a pause in the violence to get humanitarian aid into Yemen.

CNN's Richard Roth is at the U.N. with us now. So Richard, the Arab League seems pretty unified in trying to remove these Iranian-backed rebels but to what extent?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Security Council is having its first meeting on Yemen since Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries came to the aid of the now it appears former president after he appealed for international assistance.

So what's going on now in this closed-door meeting is a bit of emergency talks to really start to brainstorm at an initial stage.

[12:05:06] However, it was Russia who called this meeting, and it is Russia, who is now behind closed doors, presented a draft resolution, which does call for some sort of humanitarian pause.

But other diplomats from other countries say it's really not exactly a resolution about humanitarian pauses. There is no call for an end of aggression by the Houthis, and there is no call in the Russian draft for political dialogue, which many countries here want.

However, elusive that appears now. The British deputy ambassador, Peter Wilson, said for now his country and others support Saudi Arabia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER WILSON, BRITISH DEPUTY AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: It's that we continue to support the Saudi-led action in Yemen, legitimate request from President Hadi. Secondly, any civilian casualties and all civilian casualties are ones that we deeply regret. We remain fully committed to ensuring the international humanitarian law is complied with and proper access given to agencies, who need to get access to grant relief.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The British diplomat says what's really needed above everything else now is some sort of political dialogue that has broken down repeatedly in the last few years in Yemen -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: And then realistically, what kind of leverage can the U.N. really have, given the circumstances in Yemen right now anyway?

ROTH: That's right. Even the U.N. special advisor for Yemen is apparently here in New York. Some countries want him out in that role. It's a tall order for anyone trying to keep the peace there where aggression and violence rages.

WHITFIELD: All right, Richard Roth, thank you so much. Appreciate that from the U.N. Keep us posted.

All right, still ahead, the last investigators have left the Germanwings crash site in the Alps, and dozens of cell phones are recovered. We're live from Dusseldorf, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:10:03]

WHITFIELD: All right, again, a U.N. emergency meeting is under way at the U.N. as it pertains to Yemen. All this while al Qaeda leaders get out of prison in Yemen. It is pure chaos in that country.

CNN's Nic Robertson is joining us at the Yemeni/SaudiArabia border. So these are big can concerns that now al Qaeda leaders who were imprisoned now have the run-of-the-mill in the country, even pictures showing at least one leader in a presidential palace. What can be done at this point?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the things would be to extend any humanitarian pause that the U.N. is calling for to get real dialogue and talks going between the Yemeni government and President Hadi and the Houthis.

That doesn't seem to be on the really soon to be -- have any life in it at the moment. The Houthis are rejecting calls for these talks at the moment and calling for the Saudis to stop the airstrikes. The Saudis saying the Houthis need to put down their weapons and get out of the big cities and hand back control to legitimate government.

That seems to be at a stalemate and that plays directly in al Qaeda's hands. You get the jail break. You get leaders like Khaled Batarfi released from jail. He goes into the presidential palace to show off that he's free and he's got the run of the town there, and this is what al Qaeda has done in the past.

It tries to take advantage and then extend its the control and influence. Of course, that's a threat to any of our al -- any of the people al Qaeda wants to target. Us in the west and the Saudi government here, the Saudi royal family, targets of al Qaeda as well.

But the humanitarian situation is what's causing a lot of concern as well. Aid in that port city in the south is where a lot of fighting is going on, still a lot of casualties being taken there in the fighting, 53 people killed in the past couple of days there.

So that's a significant concern and that's where the aid agencies like the Red Cross want this pause so people can get food and bring medical supplies in -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Nic Robertson, pretty serious situation. Thank you so much.

All right, meantime, in Europe, the last investigators have left the Germanwings crash site in the Alps. Investigators are now focusing on analysis of the flight data recorder, which has now shown that co- pilot, Andreas Lubitz, purposely used the controls to speed up the plane's descent.

And investigators are looking at mobile phones recovered from the crash site. Let me bring in CNN's Will Ripley, who is following the investigation from Dusseldorf. Does this mean the ground investigation has completely wrapped up, that investigators have left the Alps?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It has, Fred, and the crash investigators have left that site. They have left the mountain range, but their work will continue in the days, weeks and months to come. What this tells us, and this is pretty significant and new today.

That they have now recovered everything from the crash site that is most substantial and has the most value in the investigation. So you're talking about the two black boxes, the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder.

They have recovered they believe all of the human remains. They have 150 DNA profiles now being evaluated to get some closure for the families of the people who were on board the flight. They have also recovered some 470 personnel effects, including 40 mobile phones, which are very heavily damaged, but each of those phones will be taken to a lab and analyzed.

And if there are phones that have a sim card that may have been -- stayed intact in the crash, there is the possibility that passengers may have recorded video of the final moments. Of course, all of this will be used as they try to put together a more complete picture of exactly what was happening.

We already have a pretty complete picture, given the sense that there has been so much information that has been leaked over the past week and a half.

And, of course, also information released, including that analysis of the flight data recorder, which shows that Andreas Lubitz intentionally set the plane on a course with the French Alps and also increasing the speed of the plane as it went down, hitting the mountain range at 420 miles per hour, Fred.

There is also a task force that's been formed here in Germany. Their work will begin in force on Tuesday. They'll be looking at every aspect of this crash investigation to figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from ever happening again -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Will Ripley, thanks so much. Let's talk more about this. I want to bring in from New York, Les Abend, a CNN aviation analyst and a pilot with thousands of hours of flying, most of them on a 777.

OK, so Les, given that information that Will just gave us, we're talking about the co-pilot increasing the speed, which speaks to the premeditation of whether it be called a mass murder or a homicide.

In your view, even though it seemed already clear to investigators that the co-pilot intentionally did this by locking the cockpit, by programming this rapid descent, in your view, what difference does it make this distinction in a criminal investigation?

[12:15:01] If the co-pilot did it and he is dead, does this remove any culpability from the airliner? How does this advance anything?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, that's a great question, Fredricka. And you know, I echo what Will says with reference to this is just one phase of the investigation that is now complete. And I applaud the investigation team in the -- in the organized way they go about this.

It's exemplary. Anyhow, I think to your question, the problem stems from the initial screening process of this -- of this young man. I mean, this is a friend of mine equated it to trying to get into Harvard to qualify to get into this training program, which is a start from ground zero flight training program.

Somewhere along the line, he was constantly supervised, 250 hours' worth of flight experience, and simulator training, all together. A lot of instructors should have observed this kind of behavior and then as we know, there's a report of him leaving, which is very untypical.

WHITFIELD: The training.

ABEND: During the training process. Exactly and this should have in and of itself thrown up a red flag. All through that process and getting to -- back to Germany to train on the airbus itself. Somebody should have seen something that was off.

And I think that's where we should look on this, aside from the fact that he set the autopilot and let's distinguish between vertical speed and regular speed. He set the vertical speed. In other words, the descent rate down so he could impact the mountains perhaps at a higher rate quickly.

WHITFIELD: So then these issues become less about the co-pilot, because there should have been red flags and more about the airliner, training, or anyone around him, leaning to some culpability, leaning to some liability.

Why someone didn't say something sooner, say enough? So then you're talking about broadening out, which potentially could be the lawsuits from the survivors of those killed, who say, wait a minute, Lufthansa, Germanwings, somebody knew something and didn't do anything to prevent this?

ABEND: Yes, exactly right, Fredricka. Listen, just -- I fly, you know, with a time I have close to 25,000 hours of time. I fly with mostly one individual at this point in my career. And you get to know every aspect of that person's life, even if it's the first time you've flown with them.

Sometimes you can spend 14 hours at a clip with that person in and out of the cockpit and even on a layover. So you notice when something is a little bit off even if it's a brand-new individual. So, yes, I'm not -- I'm no psychiatrist.

But I know pilots well enough to know that, you know, something isn't quite right. And I think Lufthansa missed something in this whole process.

WHITFIELD: Maybe that's why the silence is so deafening from Lufthansa or other fellow pilots, or anybody who knew him, except for the ex-girlfriend who we know has spoken to a publication. But it's been very quiet since hearing from the CEO initially at Lufthansa. Les Abend, thank you. ABEND: We were in shock as pilots. We really are, but thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks so much, Les, appreciate it from New York.

All right, still ahead, "Fast & Furious 7" speeding to the top of the Box Office. What's really driving the success of Paul Walker, his last movie? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:22:17]

WHITFIELD: All right, talk about being in the right place at the right time. A Good Samaritan springs into action to save a family from a burning RV. Gail Paschall-Brown from our CNN affiliate, WESH, has this amazing rescue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your car off of it.

GAIL PASCHALL-BROWN, WESH REPORTER (voice-over): Ross Thompson who happens to run a business called the RV Doctor and his son were coming down U.S. 27 in Lake County when they saw this motor home on fire.

ROSS THOMPSON, GOOD SAMARITAN: I looked over and I saw that there was a car attached to it, and I was concerned. I saw one man running around on the outside so I did not think there was anybody else there because it was so engulfed. I figure they were outside.

PASCHALL-BROWN: But they were not. He went to help them while his son caught it on the cell phone. Another man driving an 18-wheeler also stopped and helped.

THOMPSON: There was a foot sticking out the back window. So I stopped and we ran across to the back window and rescued her mom and the daughter and got them out because they could not get out. They were trapped. The whole front end was engulfed. There was no way there were going through the front door.

PASCHALL-BROWN: Joe Riley, his friend, and her daughter were all heading to Michigan when his right front tire blew out.

JOE RILEY, FIRE VICTIM: It seemed like the tire was ignited and on fire almost within milliseconds. And the flames just come up. I ran out the door with the fire extinguisher, trying to put the tire out and got burned all over.

THOMPSON: He ran back into the coach, through the front firewall, and was inside. And we couldn't find him.

PASCHALL-BROWN: They did find him. Riley went back for a second fire extinguisher. The tires were popping and melting from the flames. But there was another concern, a 100-pound propane tank underneath the coach.

THOMPSON: And the fire was working its way back towards it. So I was yelling at people to get away from the coach from the toxic fumes. If that tank blew, it would have been worse. I'm just glad I was there. I think God put me there at the right place and right time to help people out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Wow, frightening close call there. That was Gail Paschall-Brown from our affiliate, WESH, reporting.

All right, well, it is now on the pace to be perhaps the biggest money-making film of the year. The seventh installment of the "Fast & Furious" series starring the late Paul Walker and Vin Diesel hit theaters this weekend.

(VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: On the edge of your seat there with Tyrese, Vin Diesel. The list goes on, Paul Walker, of course, and Ludacris and Brian Stelter live from New York. So what is it, Brian, about this movie. We know posthumously paying homage to Paul Walker, but there is something else about this flick.

[12:25:12] BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're right. That is one element, but there is so many others that are making this film a success. And frankly it's even surprising people in Hollywood, who knew this was going to be a hit.

But as the numbers are coming in this weekend, it's actually outpacing all of their projections. So as the hours go on, it's doing even better than expected. Look at this chart of all the top movies in April ever.

This is opening weekends for big April movies. You see "Clash Of The Titans" in 2010, "Fast & Furious," the 2009 version, "Fast Five," the fifth one in 2011, and "Captain America" up until today the biggest April opening weekend ever. That made about $95 million.

Well, "Furious 7" will make $150 million this weekend. It's going to be way beyond any April movie opening weekend ever. By the way, it was pacing like 115, 120. Then people started seeing it Thursday night and Friday. The analysts said maybe 130, 140.

Now this afternoon they're saying 150. Universal is the maker of the movie. They're being cautious. They're saying 149.5 million, but no matter what it ends up being, it's going to be a record.

WHITFIELD: So this is almost like a summer, you know, blockbuster movie season already.

STELTER: That's what's really striking. What I'm about to say is ridiculous, Fredricka, because it feels like spring barely in most of the country but in L.A., summer. This is the unofficial start of the summer movie season and that's what Universal was hoping for. This is the kind of movie people would typically see in May or June or July or August. So by having it come out in April, Hollywood is hoping this is the start of a very good summer box office season. Last year was not so hot.

Earnings were down for a lot of the big Hollywood studios. People started to wonder, are people going to go to the movies in the age of Netflix and Amazon.

WHITFIELD: I remember that conversation.

STELTER: Well, something like this goes to show, there are certain movies, big franchises, people do go to the movies to see.

WHITFIELD: And you think about these stars in this series of movies, they don't have to do anything else. Who knew it would have this kind of longevity -- I know they want to do other things. But is that Michelle Rodriguez?

She has made a name for herself in this movie series. And I heard her talking about how she never puts on, you know, a dress -- during these shows. And she finally got a chance to do that for the red carpet and how fun that was. But, you know, Ludacris, even Tyrese.

STELTER: Well, by the way, you know, you're mentioning all these actors and actresses. Many of them are various minorities. This is not a movie that reflects the America 50 years ago. This is a movie that reflects the America of today.

We're also seeing that in television this season. All the biggest hits in prime time network TV are shows that have diverse casts. And Universal was wise with this, bringing on the rock, for example, bringing on and keeping cast members.

It really has a diverse reflection of the country. But I do think there's interest in Paul Walker and how they're able to have him in the movie. He's partly computer generated in the movie --

WHITFIELD: Isn't his brother in some way -- didn't he have to play a role, the completion of this?

STELTER: That's right. He filled in because they were still making this movie in 2013 when Paul Walker died. I'm sure some people are coming out to the theaters to see how they did it, to see how the movie happened.

And for some fans, it's been rather emotional to see the movie yesterday and to see him in it. The fact this is number seven -- the cultural critic dislikes these sequels but people like him. Box Office movie-goers love sequels. That's why we see more than ever.

WHITFIELD: I think I've seen the first one. I never followed throughout, but now I've got to see number seven too. I'm on board. All right, Brian, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Good to see you.

STELTER: You too. WHITFIELD: Much more in the NEWSROOM right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:31:14]

WHITFIELD: All right. Hello again, everyone and thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. This time of year, it's nearly impossible to overshadow college basketball. But Indiana, well it happened. More specifically, it was the state's so-called Religious Freedom Law.

The legislation generated so much backlash that it prompted the state's biggest newspaper to print this not-so-subtle front page message to Indiana governor, Mike Pence. Fix this now.

The law was revised, and there was a similar story taking place in Arkansas. Governor Asa Hutchinson, refusing to sign a religious freedom bill into law until it was revised to mirror federal legislation.

All right, joining me now are CNN senior political analyst, Ron Brownstein, CNN commentator, LZ Granderson and criminal defense attorney, Page Pate.

Before we begin, gentlemen, let me also play this sound from former Arkansas governor, Mike Huckabee, a potential 2016 candidate, speaking this morning on CNN with Michael Smerconish.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: You said earlier this week, it won't stop until there are no more churches. And it occurred to me, and I listened to the totality of that interview, it wasn't the LGBT community that I think caused the reversal in both Arkansas and Indiana, but rather business interests.

You know, traditionally Republicans supporting business interests, whether it's entities like Wal-Mart in your home state, Angie's List in Indiana. React to that alliance, the alliance between the gay/lesbian community and transgenders and those business entities that traditionally would have been in the Chamber of Commerce realm with the GOP.

MIKE HUCKABEE, FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: Well, Michael, first of all, the reason that those corporations put the pressure on Indiana and Arkansas was because the militant gay community put the pressure on them. I found it a little hypocritical, when you have companies, even -- and I love Walmart -- big company in my home state.

But they do business in China, for God's sake. I don't think the Chinese are exactly the paragon of human rights. You've got Apple computer, they're selling Apple computers in Saudi Arabia. Is Tim Cook going to pull out of there? I don't think so.

He doesn't mind making millions, if not billions of dollars in cultures and countries where human rights are really an issue. And for anybody to try to draw some comparison between what's happening by not getting a wedding cake made and people having, you know, their hands cut off or being hanged or in prison, I mean -- that's -- I find that a stretch.

And I think these corporations really ought to either be consistent, quit making money from these countries that are really oppressing human rights and quit bowing to the pressure and just sell their stuff. That's what they're in business for. Sell stuff.

SMERCONISH: But that's the argument -- but governor, that's the argument that's made from the other side about the baker and the florist and the candlestick maker. You're in business to bake a cake. Just bake a cake and go home and be a good Christian, whatever that means.

HUCKABEE: A lot of people will do that, Michael. They will bake the cake. But shouldn't they have the discretion? That's really once again the issue. If they want to turn the business down, they're not turning down the business of being open, being willing to serve any customer what they've got on the shelf. Again, it's the religious liberty when people are asked to do something which they believe violates their conscience.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Did this just become more complicated or is there more clarity here? So Page, to you first. Huckabee is saying it's an issue of discretion versus discrimination.

And he is drawing the parallels of human rights violations, U.S. doing business with countries that are accused of such, and so he's drawing some parallels to the Religious Freedom Law.

[12:35:11] And that people should in the case of their religious beliefs be able to discriminate or in his view show discretion of who they want to do business with.

PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think discretion --

WHITFIELD: I think this is becoming even more confusing as opposed to being more clear?

PATE: I think it is and that what happens whenever you try to mix politics and law. Discretion is one thing. Certainly a business has the right to decide, hey, look, this wedding is too big for me or too small for me. I don't want to do it.

But if there is a state law or local ordinance or any type of regulation that says, business, you can't discriminate based on race, gender, sexual orientation, then that law should be upheld. And I really don't think that these statutes will allow these businesses to discriminate.

I really think that was the intent, but when you actually look at how the statute read and is working in several states for the last 20 years, no one has been able to legally discriminate and use this law as a defense.

WHITFIELD: But Ron, isn't that where we're going with those who have been defending this law, that perhaps this will be license to discriminate? But they don't want to use the word discriminate.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That is the charge. But I actually do think we have reached a moment of greater clarity and it's the opposite of what the sponsors of the law originally intended.

I think the upshot of this enormous controversy in Arkansas and especially Indiana and the enlistment of the business community decisively on one side of this debate is to I think from this point forward to establish the principle that businesses are going to have to serve all potential customers.

And that if you look at what was put in the law in Indiana, it was the exact opposite I think of what the sponsors intended when they started out. And the idea that you would be able to say no, we do not want to serve same-sex couples I think is now going to be increasingly outside the pale.

WHITFIELD: So you're saying as a result of the revision offering clarity.

BROWNSTEIN: I think it does offer clarity.

WHITFIELD: OK.

BROWNSTEIN: I think it does offer clarity because I think politically it made clear that the original position is untenable.

WHITFIELD: All right. So LZ, this clearly is now an issue that will carry on into the 2016 elections because Huckabee is potentially a candidate and he is very much defending this religious freedom.

LZ GRANDERSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, first of all, I would like to challenge the idea that the original intent of writing this bill was about some of the issues that started with 20 some years ago when the federal law was first enacted.

When you look at the timeline when this went through the pipeline, this came after Indiana first tried to do a same-sex marriage ban and failed. This comes as Mike Pence's name is being floated around as a possible 2016 candidate.

He ignored his Republican mayor of Indianapolis, pleading with him not to sign this bill. He ignored the Chamber of Commerce, pleading with him not to sign this bill, because he wanted to make sure he has some sort of conservative cred to be able to tout if he didn't throw his name into that hat.

So I'm not sure if the original intent really had to do with protecting religious freedom in the state of Indiana as much as a much larger 2016 projection. Now, to answer your question further, when you look at Mike Huckabee, who has a new book, who is trying to test the waters himself and see if it he can get enough conservative energy behind what he may decide to do in 2016.

It makes sense in the world that he would defend and criticize anyone who attacks this bill, because like Pence, he wants to position himself as a conservative favorite for the general election.

WHITFIELD: And I wonder, is it really about religious freedom, or is that just the title of this law? But, is there a nuance to language here instead, you know, Ron? Is it really an issue of people feeling like their religious freedoms are being trampled on or threatened, or is this sake of using this word as a cloak in which to say there are some people who we don't believe are deserving of the same rights and freedoms as everyone else?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think there are multiple things here. I mean, clearly, there are, you know, people who feel their religious freedoms are being constricted by public policy decisions and we saw that with the hobby lobby case last year.

But I think this does speak to a broader sense of unease in portions of the country about the cultural and demographic transition we are living through, which is profound. And what you see in Mike Huckabee's comments is an indication of kind of the magnetic pull, the pressure that Republicans face.

About half their base are Evangelical Christians, primary voters are self-identified Evangelical-Christians. Half the primary voters are regular church attenders. And many of those are unhappy with what's happening.

The problem they've got is that the underlying current of public opinion and overall society is moving in the other direction. And what we have seen over the past week, not only from Mike Pence but many of the 2016 contenders is how difficult it is to straddle that widening divide.

[12:40:00] And this is going to be a real challenge for them in 2016. They've got a lot to look forward to on the economy to argue about on foreign policy. But on these cultural issues, a very difficult road, I think, ahead, squaring the preferences of their base with the direction of the overall country.

WHITFIELD: All right, everybody, thank you so much on that. I know we're not done with this topic. It will be back. Ron Brownstein, LZ Granderson and Page Pate, thank you.

All right, still ahead, the defense in the Boston bombing trial rests after a day-and-a-half. Now the real work begins, trying to save Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's life, perhaps or are seeds being planted of reasonable doubt. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:44:20]

WHITFIELD: All right, closing arguments in the Boston bombing trial are Monday, after the prosecution spent weeks laying out their case in extreme detail. A guilty verdict would seem like a foregone conclusion.

In fact, attorneys for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev even said it was him who helped carry out the attack in Boston. They said that in the opening statement. Well, the defense team appears to be focusing more now on the sentencing phase.

They're hoping to avoid the death penalty by convincing jurors that Dzhokhar's brother, Tamerlan, was really the mastermind behind all of it. Let's bring in our legal guys, Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor in Cleveland. Good to see you. I like the pink.

And Richard Herman, a New York criminal defense attorney and law professor joining us from Honolulu. You've got the pink too. We've all got the pink memo. I like it. We are feeling it today.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: All balancing out.

[12:45:11] WHITFIELD: That's right. Richard, you first, because, you know, the defense says that Dzhokhar was manipulated by his big brother. But did you hear that in court to convince the jurors that Dzhokhar really had -- really no input in this entire operation, and that he was manipulated? That he was the victim?

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Fred, this is one of the most difficult challenges for any defense attorney, a case like this. And I know the defense attorneys have done cases and done miracle cases where these defenses have saved the lives of the defendants. But this is Boston, Massachusetts.

This is a very proud community. This was the Boston marathon. And the way the prosecution ended by showing bodies exploding at the finish line, Fred, I don't care if the great Daniel Webster is resurrected in this case here.

There is no way if I'm a juror sitting in this case I could possibly not vote for death penalty for this guy for fear of my own life living in Boston. This guy, even though one-third of these federal cases get convictions, Fred, there is going to be enormous pressure on this jury to give death penalty.

This will be a flash verdict Monday, going right to the penalty phase. There are no mitigations here. Everything is aggravating. He's going to get the death penalty.

WHITFIELD: And that would seem very convincing, but Avery, we are talking about a very Catholic city. Many Catholics don't believe in the death penalty. But let's talk about in large part about what the defense tried to hammer, you know, the point. How they tried to hammer the point. Five main points in particular. That Tamerlan, the big brother's fingerprints, were on the tools and the cell phone that Dzhokhar had was compared to Tamerlan's location, the jihadi propaganda on Tamerlan's laptop, Tamerlan's searches and Dzhokhar's typical social media activity which seemed fairly innocent enough. Is that enough to convince the jurors that he's deserving of the death penalty?

FRIEDMAN: Well, number one, there's no reasonable doubt, Fredricka. We are quite correctly so looking at what's going to happen at the penalty phase. I agree. I see no mitigating consequences. The idea that Tamerlan has the power -- you look at the video, you look at all the other elements that you've identified.

I see no mitigation whatsoever. If there were ever -- and I have a problem with death penalty. I must tell you, Fredricka, if there is any reason to have it, it is Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. This is the case where it's warranted. I don't see how -- and they are miraculous lawyers, have done great work. I just don't see how they beat death penalty here.

WHITFIELD: Yes, and that defense attorney has a track record of avoiding death penalty for many folks, Eric Rudolph, you know, among them.

FRIEDMAN: Right.

WHITFIELD: Go ahead, Richard.

HERMAN: This is not Virginia. This is not Virginia.

FRIEDMAN: It doesn't matter.

HERMAN: This is Boston, Massachusetts.

FRIEDMAN: It doesn't matter.

HERMAN: Fred, 19 years old when it happened, product of fractured marriage, extreme influence by his older brother over him, these are the arguments that are going to come in front of this jury. I think it's already in play. I think --

FRIEDMAN: They're not going to work.

HERMAN: Avery and I agree, very rarely do we agree, but we do on this one.

FRIEDMAN: We agree today.

WHITFIELD: I know. And it's quite enjoyable, even when you do agree, because you still find things to disagree about. But bottom line on this one, you agree. Just don't agree on how you get there. But that's okay. That's why we love you.

FRIEDMAN: Well, we got there.

WHITFIELD: All right, Richard, Avery, thank you so much. Appreciate it, and happy Easter weekend.

All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:52:47]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOMMY TOWNSEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Hi, I'm Tommy Townsend, singer songwriter and founder of Granddaddy's Moon Shine. He was a colorful man. They called him the John Wayne of the North Georgia Mountains. He was a famous moon shiner. In the 1930s through the 60s, his whiskey they say it was strong enough to fuel a car and cure the common cold. I was 2 years old when he died. I guess, the recipe just laid around until now.

It's mainly corn, ground corn, and cane sugar. We are hand crafted. The labeling is done by hand. Bottling is done by hand.

This is my granddaddy's shop. We'll make it here and we can do tastings here. Right now we're just in Georgia and middle Tennessee, but our goal is to get it in all 50 states. This is my granny's cooking recipe. This is our 140 proof, high octane.

Music is my first love and my passion. I met Wailen Jennings when I was 13. The band is back together. I'm their lead singer. What better thing to be doing thank drinking when you listen to music.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. The NCAA men's basketball tournament begins just hours from now in Indianapolis. Four teams, thousands of fans, college basketball's biggest weekend. What a combination.

CNN sports anchor Rachel Nichols is live in Indianapolis with a look at all of the action. That's a whole lot of excitement going on right?

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Absolutely. The biggest storyline here is Kentucky's quest for perfection. You, of course, don't have to be perfect to win the NCAA tournament. You can have a loss along the way, but Kentucky is trying to do the whole boat.

It's been almost 40 years, Fred, since the team went undefeated all the way to win a championship and they're trying to become the first team since 1976 to do that.

Now, I sat down with Coach John Calipari and asked him, is this really how you want to bring your team into the tournament? There's some coaches who feel like you should approach this a little differently. Take a listen.

[12:55:07]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NICHOLS: There are some coaches who think, it's better to lose one along the way, relieve some of the pressure. Do you put any credence in that or is that just an anathema to your competitive nature?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, there's losing breeds losing. It puts losing in their minds. I don't believe that. And the only other thing is, do you think there would be less pressure on us to win this thing, whether we had one 7-11? We're all in the same boat. Everybody is 0- 0 this weekend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: Now, of course, Kentucky has that mission, but Wisconsin, the team they're going to be playing, Fred, they've got a mission of their own. Wisconsin played Kentucky in the same stage of the final four last year. They thought they had the game won, and then in the final seconds one of Kentucky's stars, Aaron Harrison, hit a three- point dagger, just broke hearts across the Midwest.

So they want revenge. It's going to be a fantastic match-up. We've also got Duke facing Michigan State, which is kind of a Cinderella pick, the only number seven seed with a bunch of number ones. It's going to be a real fun day.

WHITFIELD: And we're excited about your show coming up 2:30 Eastern Time. What should we look forward to, because you're going to be joined by Coach K too of Duke?

NICHOLS: Absolutely. We've got sitdowns with all the final four coaches, exclusive material, a bunch of behind the scenes stuff with the players, things you don't get to see on the regular broadcast.

If you're a fan of any of these teams or just love this event, even if you're not a huge sports fan, we bring you with all the character and flavor of the entire weekend. Lots of fun.

And I've got Steve Smith and Clark Kellogg joining me. A little CNN flavor, Bleacher Report flavor, everybody from the Turner family coming.

WHITFIELD: Hence the word all access! We're there with you, 2:30 Eastern Time today. Thanks so much, Rachel.

All right, so much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)