Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Picking Up The Pieces After Terrorist Seige On A Kenyan College Campus; U.N. Security Council Holding Emergency Meeting; Investigators Leave Germanwings Crash Site; Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law Continues To Stir Up Controversy. Aired 3-4p

Aired April 04, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've been in big time games, but we mind ourselves we've been here before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love these guys and they came through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we have work cut out for us, but we've had work cut out for us all year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:00:21] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: 3:00 Eastern here in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow. Thank you for being with us.

We begin with this, the world again hearing from a brutal terror organization that claims responsibility for a massacre on college campus in Kenya. Al-Shabab is based in Somalia, but has a history of violent attacks outside that country.

Today, the group promised more bloodshed in Kenya, just two days after 147 people, mostly Christians and mostly students, were gunned down on a university campus. Four of the terrorists were killed. Police arrested five others believed to be connected to the attack. And witnesses say that shooters separated Muslims from non-Muslims and then proceeded to kill as many as the non-Muslims as they could.

Kenya's president today calling al-Shabab an existential threat and vowing to continue to fight terrorism today on national television saying in part, quote, "our forefathers bled and died for this nation, and we'll do everything to defend our way of life."

Today, a survival of that horrific attack on campus told CNN how she hid when the attack started and stayed there for two days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then, me, I decided to go into the wardrobe, in the wardrobe. We have this wardrobe that's small, small rooms, and then I covered myself with the clothes, and then these people -- in our room, and then they entered our room, and other roommates who were hidden, themselves under the bed, they told them to go out, and when they were outside, they told if you don't know how to read them in the Muslim word, whatever, and then you lie down, and then if you know, you go to the other side.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN's David McKenzie joins us from that town where this massacre took place that is not far from the Somalia border.

David, thank you for being with us this evening. I know today you saw something very disturbing. What was it?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, it was very disturbing. And in fact, it just continues the violent nature of the story. We went out to the morgue to see what evidence there could be of whether the gunmen had been killed or not. And the authorities proceeded to put the bodies of what they said were the gunmen, four of them in the back of a pickup truck, drive them through town with the crowds assembling behind that truck and then showing them off as if it was to the population, and in effect to prove they killed these gunmen.

Because in previous attacks, there have been allegations that the military let people slip by, and as you say, al-Shabab now saying they'll bathe the cities of Kenya with blood. Still, after this attack, they want to do more. And Kenya's president saying they'll spare nothing to go after them, both here and Kenya and next door in Somalia - Poppy.

HARLOW: What resources does the government, though, have to fight them effectively? Because after the 67 people died in the west gate mall attack in Nairobi, now this. What more can the government do?

MCKENZIE: Well, in fact, they have been complaining that they were understaffed and not enough resources to take on what they call, as you say as an existential threat. They have in fact, called up thousands of new recruits to help secure the country.

Also, the U.S. is very involved in the fight against terror here in Kenya and in Somalia. There are Special Forces involved as well as covert drone strikes that have taken up several leaders of al-Shabab. You know, al-Shabab is not nearly as stronger forces than it was several years ago when it held big parts of Somalia as a quasi government. But they are cornered and they are dangerous, and they even in recent months have threatened U.S. targets. So certainly, there's going to be a lot of cooperation in the coming months.

HARLOW: They did recently threaten malls across the U.S., including you know, the mall of America. What are the people in the town telling you? Obviously, they are in shock, horrified, but are they also defiant?

MCKENZIE: Well, they are defiant, and there's complex situation going on here. Much of this town, Somalia, Kenya, they speak the language of Somalia, and as well as sharing the faith. But, of course, most of them, in fact all of them I have spoken to have been horrified by this attack. And in fact when they brought the bodies out of the alleged gunman, one man told me that they wanted to burn them, that it was not enough just to have them shown being dead. And there's a lot of anger here, but also a lot of fear. They've

spirited away the students remaining who will remaining from that university, shut it up that university, and sent them on busses, frankly, for their safety to Nairobi, and then beyond there. But it's really tragic to see that bright young Kenyans, really in part with the future of this country having their education, dreams snapped out and many of their friends still missing or dead - Poppy.

[15:05:32] HARLOW: No question.

David McKenzie, thank you for the reporting this evening. Much more from David on the story throughout the evening here on CNN.

But let's continue to discuss this with Bob Baer, former CIA operative and CNN's intelligence and security analyst and author of the book, "Perfect Kill: 21 laws for assassins," and with me here, Jonathan Gilliam, former Navy SEAL and FBI agent.

Thank you, gentlemen both for being here.

Bob, let me begin with you. This attack, when you talk about as David and I did, what the government can do, outside of basically making schools, universities, malls armed compounds, what is the most effective way to stop this?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Kenya's got multiple problems. One, of course, the same problems we have, and that's protecting soft targets. How do you protect the big sprawling university or school or a mall? And you know, you can do it, put more police, better reaction time, but at the end of the day, you can't protect anything. They can always hit you somewhere.

But we also have to remember that northern Kenya, there's a Muslim population, which is, you know, is not shared in the wealth as the rest of Kenya, and you got Shabab and the fundamentalists appealing to them to break away. And that's why they pulled out all these Christian students as sort of ethnic cleansing.

So Kenya needs to get its house in order as well as step up the antiterrorism campaign. But you know, at the end of the day, if you have an open sore like Somalia, where you got the Shabab armed and trained and getting combat experience, you can never entirely protect yourself from attacks like these.

HARLOW: And Jonathan, what's your assessment of this? I mean, al- Shabab, some have looked at al-Shabab as being weakened, as sort of trying to compete with the likes of ISIS and AQAP, for example, when you look at this, look at this attack, 147 killed, what's your assessment of the strength of the terror organization?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, I tell you, the strength is the scariest thing that I have seen so far with the terrorist organization since Al-Qaeda. They have figured out the critical times and the critical areas of these soft targets. You know, in Syria, you have ISIS that's cutting the heads off a lot of people. But here, they are literally going to a mall. They are going to a college campus. Those are attacks that you could easily come over and do in the United States or anywhere on the globe --

HARLOW: And they threatened it.

GILLIAM: Yes, in very effective numbers.

GILLIAM: Yes, in various types of numbers.

HARLOW: Also, to you, Bob, on that, I mean, Peter Bergen wrote an interesting op-ed on CNN.com recently that said he believes that this attack soft target like the West gate mall, like this university shows actually that al-Shabab is weaker now rather than stronger because they are not attacking these Kenyan military bases. Do you agree with that assessment at all? Because after their fighting, is the Kenyan military operations in Somalia.

BAER: Well, Peter's right. I mean, they one-time owned the Mogadishu, capital of Somalia and they owned most of the country, and they were a nation, if you like. They no longer are. The Kenyans have fought it back with the African Union.

But on the other hand, these people don't seem to much care if they lose a place like Mogadishu because they have metastasized, they are a guerrilla force, they move where they want to. They just think that they can keep up the fight for enough years and now win at the end of the day.

So just like ISIS lost Tikrit last couple of days, they don't care as long as they are expanding in other places like Damascus or Somalia, or Boko Haram and the rest of it. So I think, you know, this war is certainly not done. It's not done for Shabab and killing the leadership with drones will disrupt them, but it won't defeat them.

HARLOW: Yes, as evident in attack this week.

Bob Baer, thank you. Jonathan, thank you very much. Standby, we are going to about another chaotic situation next.

Next, the war in Yemen that's completely torn that country apart, hundreds have died, more than a thousand have been wounded, and can Saudi Arabia effectively lead this fight in a way that does not lead to more bloodshed for civilians?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:12:48] HARLOW: The U.N. security council is holding an emergency meeting today in the growing concerns about the number of civilians dying every day in Yemen. Russia today submitting a draft resolution at the U.N. asking for a slight pause in the Saudi-led airstrikes that have targeted those two Houthi rebels backed by Iran. The hope is humanitarian aid can get in; foreign personnel can get in and help all the people out safely in terms of the foreigners there.

A diplomat pointed out, however, that Russia's draft resolution does not call on those Houthi rebels to put their weapons down. And as I said, those rebels have the backing of Iran. The U.N. estimates 518 people have been killed in Yemen, really, since the violence broke out just in the past two weeks.

Complicating matters, the growing influence of Al-Qaeda in the country's east, new pictures appear to show a senior al-Qaeda leader posing in one of Yemen's presidential palaces. This, of course, happened after that leader broke out of jail and after they were effectively effective in deposing the president in the country.

Joining me to talk about it is Jonathan Gilliam, a former Navy Seal and FBI agent. Also with us again, former CIA operative Bob Baer.

Jonathan, when you look at this, you know, a lot of people point to Yemen as yet another example ever a power vacuum that gives Al-Qaeda, AQAP just another breeding ground. Have we lost Yemen?

GILLIAM: Well, we definitely lost the ground that we had. And I think overall, what you are seeing here is that we just don't have an effective strategic war plan for battling the fundamental Islamic Mohammedism (ph). It does not matter if it is Shia or Sunni, everywhere it is in the globe, we don't have an effective plan for it.

HARLOW: When you say, we, do you mean the United States because this is really being led by Saudi or do you mean by our allies?

GILLIAM: This is a global fight now. And there has to be a coalition - I mean, look, Denmark, Canada, France, Australia, everybody's been attacked now. Yemen is important, but the strategic war plan does not exist. Yemen is a tactical battleground. Syria is a tactical battleground. And Yemen holds it a really high importance. Why we are allowing this or have allowed to just slip away is just an example of how little the war plan we have.

[15:15:11] HARLOW: So Bob, to you, I mean, we've seen Saudi Arabia's now leading the coalition of nine Middle East nations, right? You got Arab power coming from Saudi Arabia, the UEA, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Morocco, Sudan and you got naval assistance from Egypt. Do you agree we have, as Jonathan has said, have sort of let this happen, let Yemen slip through the cracks?

BAER: I mean, we -- this is a hideous diplomatic failure in the sense that we've been unable to put together a coalition which would involves Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and as much as I hate to say it, Iran.

If everybody is supporting one of these groups, and effectively, pushing for a breakup of countries like Yemen and Syria and Iraq, we will only have more violence. I agree completely it's a totally failed strategy. And remember, the population of Yemen is almost as big as Saudi Arabia's. And if that country is a source of instability for Saudi Arabia, we're in big trouble.

You know, whether at the end of the day we could have put a coalition together, I don't know. But it does not look like we tried very hard.

HARLOW: So one of the important things in this fight, Jonathan, you know, is from being a Navy Seal is intelligence gathering.

GILLIAM: Sure.

HARLOW: And one of the questions that often comes up is how effective, how strong can the intelligence gathering be when you don't have people on the ground really.

GILLIAM: Right. Well, as Bob will tell you, until half of intelligence is not just our guy being out there, it's recruiting the right sources to report back to you. Now, that's something that I think we have been doing for a long time in Yemen, and that's probably the only thing that we have going for is that as we pull backwards, we still have people that are in there that are locals that are sources, and they feed us information. That's the only thing saving us right now as far as giving us information what's going on.

HARLOW: Bob, look, former president there, really the currently the president still, but who is no longer in the country, has been ousted by these Houthi rebels. You saw one taking a photo inside the presidential palace. What kind of government would be the best case scenario that's realistic right now in Yemen if the rebels are to be defeated?

BAER: Any central government, I mean, as you talked about, Poppy, when you get this vacuums, it is an open invitation for Al-Qaeda to setup a state. They are actually, they have not had one over the last decade, it looks like they are going to get one if they are taking over presidential palaces and part towns and the rest of it, we are facing another Islamic caliphate in Yemen. And without an army group, you know, troops on the ground, that is what we're going to get. And I don't think the Saudis have the army to occupy Yemen. The Egyptians tried in the '60s and fail completely.

I don't know who could actually do it, but this is -- you know, the Arabs are panicking about Yemen like I've never seen them panic. And they have good reason to because it could be destabilizing against Saudi Arabia and other neighboring countries.

HARLOW: Bob Baer, Jonathan, thank you both. Good to have you on. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, we are going to talk about the crash of Germanwings flight 9525 and a shepherd who witnessed it saying that he will have nightmares after witnessing that disaster.

Also, the families of the victims struggling, of course, with their emotions, an update, a report after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:21] HARLOW: The second phase of the Germanwings flight 9525 investigation is underway today. The last police investigators left the crash site. It's not clear when or if they return, a private security company is there now to protect the rest of the site from any intruders.

It's been an incredibly trying time for everyone involved since the plane crashed two weeks ago. Our Karl Penhaul has been covering the story from the beginning and he filed this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This should have been the view from the window seat high in the sky. Instead, it may have been their last look at life.

I saw the plane heading down along the valley, and I said, my God, it's going to hit the mountain. I ducked my head, but it seemed to veer left. And after that, I saw the smoke, he says.

The people are weary of outsiders in the villages, but slowly this shepherd (INAUDIBLE) tells me what's troubling him.

It's terrible, you can't imagine something like that. One day it will come back to haunt me and give me nightmares, he says.

Those first air images showed the flight 9525 went down less than a minute away in stretchers who most inaccessible ravine. Investigators had warned us to stay away.

Still a little while before dawn, but we are going toward a trail head. The aim is to try to hike into the crash site. I thought the families deserved to see where their loved ones lay. There's a little bit of frost this morning. And now the sun's coming down, certainly no sign of snow just yet.

Getting up here is hanging on to tree roots and grass. I can see why they have to fly anything out with that crash site by helicopter. Few people live up here. Few sign posts point the way. It's taken hours to hike in, but we finally found the spot. It's down there in that steep sided of valley they are doing the saddest job of all.

From my vantage point above the crash site, it seemed recovery teams were clinging on by their fingertips. So steep the sides of that wind-blown gully, so lonely, those travelers lying now in plastic shrouds.

For more than a week, rescuers refused to bound to nature, risking their own lives, treating the dead like they were family.

I've lost friends in mountain years in past. Our code is to never to leave anybody in the mountains, he says.

At a simple memorial close by, the living came to weep for their dead. The village mayor vows to cherish them and never forget.

We have a duty to look after their memories. We must share the pain of the families, he says.

This young woman names (INAUDIBLE) felt ready to share a few thoughts of her big brother (INAUDIBLE). He was an Iranian soccer journalist aboard the flight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said to one of his friends that if someone kills in the flight crash, it would be OK because it's for one minute, and we're gone, and you are in the sky where your soul will go, and he spent eight minutes to fall down.

PENHAUL: Lufthansa boss, Carsten Spohr, came to lay a wreath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's not a single hour where we don't think about this terrible accident.

PENHAUL: He's already admitted the co-pilot on the flight first reported mental health issues to Lufthansa back in 2009.

Mr. Spohr, can you tell us why you didn't stop a man with psychological issues flaying your plane?

If Spohr wasn't giving any answers, at least I hope he heard the question on everyone's lips.

Families may never really find out why, but just perhaps they can discover peace amid these mountain meadows and crystal streams or draw solace from a sister who desperately misses her brother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything's great for him, but for us, we just -- we just can't calm ourselves down with this picture that he's now the king.

PENHAUL: There, up where her imagination flies, they are all kings of the Alps.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, (INAUDIBLE), France.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[15:27:17] HARLOW: We'll remember all of them. Karl Penhaul, thank you for the report.

Coming up next, we are going to talk about this, could Lufthansa, the parent company, be held criminally liable for this crash? We'll discuss that next.

Also, a horrifying story about a family on vacation in the Virgin Islands now fighting for their lives, and concerns they may have been poisoned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:45] HARLOW: Well, for the first time since Germanwings flight 9525 crashed in the French Alps, police investigators have left the scene. And their departure comes just two days after the flight data recorder, also known as one of the plane's black box, was found buried in eight inches of dirt.

Let's talk about this investigation, the liability, with Daniel Rose, an attorney with Kreindler and Kreindler. He is also a licensed commercial pilot and a former Navy jet pilot, also with me again, David Soucie, a former FAA safety inspector.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. You know, the fact that the investigators left the scene now means

that they have collected the data that they need to continue to go through. When you look at the fact, David, that the flight data recorder revealed that the co-pilot, Lubitz, increased its speed several times as this plane went down, does that tell us anything about Lufthansa's liability here, knowing, first of all, that this is possible and knowing his mental background?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: I think it's a reach to say that he think that they could have known that he was going to commit a crime like this. However, the fact that he continued to increase speed definitely puts that in the fact he had intent, he was continuing to increase the speed, trying to get to the crash site. There is no question, this was premeditated murder because of the fact that he had been researching how to keep the captain out of the cockpit through the door. So as far as criminal liability, I'm going to leave that to the attorney to answer that question.

HARLOW: Right.

I mean, referencing what investigators found in his tablet inside his home, that he had searched things including sort of cockpit security, et cetera. And so to you, Daniel, as an attorney, when you look at Lufthansa, the parent company of Germanwings in there, how open they are to criminal liability here, given that a European government official saying this is premeditated murder, given the fact that they knew about Lubitz's mental illness background at least that he had been coping with depression, how open are they for criminal liability?

DANIEL ROSE, ATTORNEY, KREINDLER AND KREINDLER: Well, they are certainly vulnerable to it. And there is a history in Europe of airlines being prosecuted criminally for negligent conduct of their employees. So certainly, if you have a case like this where there's a deliberate act that arguably should have been flagged years ago, 2009, and the airline's on notice about it and doesn't take any precautions including background check, psyche vows (ph), constant monitoring of their pilot, and then at the end of the day, does not put in a policy of having two people in the cockpit in order to prevent something like this from happening, then you can certainly look at the airline for the practices and procedures that they put in place, and that could lead to criminal negligence and certainly prosecution in Europe and possible civil liability in the U.S.

HARLOW: David, what should change? I mean, many experts have suggested that there should be a third party intermediary there, between the doctors and the privately concern there and the company, the employer or the airline, that communicates when there is a big problem, a mental illness, for example, that should prevent someone from flying. Is a third party the answer here?

SOUCIE: I don't think so, Poppy. The third party's been tried before in the voluntary disclosure program. That information, which is supposed to be secret, has been released due to pressure from Congress in certain cases. So it's just simply not a trusted third party doesn't usually work. It's still in place. There's some success, but I think this is too personal of an issue to trust a third party with all your HIPA information and your psychological profiling.

HARLOW: And quickly, before I let you go, Daniel, just your advice to the families right now just trying to cope, get through this. They are not thinking of legal recourse, you know, many of them at this point in time. They are just coping with the loss of their loved ones. But what should they be doing right now in terms of on the legal end?

ROSE: Well, as you said, first and foremost, they need to be taking care of themselves and their families and their mental well-being as best they can given this terrible situation. But there will be a time and place when the families want answers and they want accountability. And it's been proven historically that in situations like this, oftentimes that accountability and responsibility comes through the legal recourse that the families have, both in Europe and, I believe, they'll have some in the U.S. as well.

[15:35:15] HARLOW: And I believe they oftentimes only have about two years to file, so they need to, obviously, when they are ready, take that step.

Thank you very much, Daniel and David, I appreciate it.

Coming up next, we are going to talk about a very disturbing story that's quickly developing. You are looking at images of parents who were on vacation with their children at a luxury resort, really in paradise in the Virgin Islands, a toxic chemical could be to blame as what some are looking at as a potential poisoning. More on that stunning story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:39:19] HARLOW: It was supposed to be a dream vacation, instead, it has left a Delaware family fighting for their lives. Their weeklong stay in a luxury resort in the U.S. Virgin Islands was cut short when paramedics found the father in a coma, the mother and her two sons having seizures. Officials now suspecting an extremely toxic pesticide may be to blame.

Sarah Gamin is following the story for us from New York.

First of all, Sarah, I know you spoke with the family's attorney and you have an update on their condition. How are they doing?

[15:39:47] SARAH GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Poppy. I spoke to the family's attorney a while ago, and told me that thankfully the parents, Theresa and Stephen, they are doing a little bit better. The father has come out of a coma. The mother was released from the hospital, put into physical therapy. But the two teenage boys, one is Shaun, who is just 16 years old, and Ryan, who is 14, they are still in critical condition and in a coma in a children's hospital in Philadelphia.

Their attorney told me, he said they are in rough shape, that's a quote. But the whole family was air lifted back here after falling ill after a fumigation of a villa that was beneath the one where they were staying at this resort, here is (INAUDIBLE) resort on St. John in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

The EPA says that traces of methyl bromide, which is not allowed to be used indoors in the U.S. because of toxicity, were found inside the family's villa.

HARLOW: I know when you look at something like methyl bromide, the family's attorney told you this is sort like akin to Serine gas, that's how toxic it can be. Why was it used here if it's banned in the United States?

GANIM: Well, that's the question. Investigators are looking at it at this point. Now, the EPA clearly says that methyl bromide is restricted. It is not supposed to be used indoors. It is odorless and you don't smell it, and it causes injury to the lung and to the nervous system.

As you said, the attorney (INAUDIBLE) gas. It can be fatal if it is inhaled. This was very, very scary, Poppy. The older boy, when they found him, he had blood in his lungs, his heart was failing. One of the boys right now has brain damage, the attorney told me. And the father, who is now awake, he cannot yet talk, the mother like I said in occupational therapy.

Now, the resort which is owned by a company called Sea Glass Vacations, told us that the pest control company that did this fumigation was Termin-X (ph). They were there on March 18th and that was right in the middle of the family's nine-day vacation. They fell ill shortly after that fumigation, Poppy.

HARLOW: And if the resort is found liable here, what are we looking at in terms of, you know, consequences?

GANIM: I think the investigators are looking at the resort. They are going to be looking at Termin-X. The lawyers said they will be looking at the company that provided this -- it's called metho-gas, but it is methyl bromide, it is the gas that was used. They will be looking at all of that, and the department of justice was called by the EPA. They have now opened a criminal investigation. And the EPA is there monitoring the air and environmental samples working with local agencies to figure out what happened to make sure that other people are not in harm's way.

Termni-X (ph) told CNN in an email that it is, quote, "looking into this matter internally, cooperating with the attorney, and said we are thinking about the family and join this community in wishing them speedy recovery."

A spokeswoman for the EPA also told CNN that the EPA is actively working to determine how this happened. And will make sure steps are taken to prevent this from happening to others at this vacation apartment resort and elsewhere, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. It is a horrifying story.

Sarah, keep us posted how the family is doing, especially with how serious it seems the injuries are already. Sarah Ganim, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

Coming up next, big news, as you know all week out of Indiana, the state moving this week to change a very controversial law about religious freedom. The billionaire CEO of a tech company was one of the first to warn Indiana about the consequences of the law. My interview with him next.

But first, let's meet this week's CNN hero who helped students choose guitars over guns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHAD BERNSTEIN, CNN HERO: As a kid, I struggled a lot with self- esteem, bullying, and that desire to fit in. When I found trombone, the music became the place I could do that. As a professional musician, the disappearance of music in schools concerns me, because I would be lost without music.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guitar over guns will be meeting today. Please be on time and ready to rock.

BERNSTEIN: Our program offers free after school programming to at- risk middle schoolers. Music is the most important tool we have in reaching these kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, if we can please finish up with the grades and go to the instruments.

BERNSTEIN: In the classroom we split the program up in 30-minute chunks, mentoring exercise, instrument instruction and ensemble experience.

I'm a professional musician. We build relationships. We get to know their families and what their lives are like at home. A lot of times, these kids only see to the end of their block. We like to give them exposure to the rest of the world.

Over there is where we will be recording vocals.

The best part about our program is watching these kids to really transform.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before the program I really wouldn't think I would be in a studio. But now I could do medicine, I could do music. I could probably even be like a teacher.

[15:44:58] BERNSTEIN: When I see a kid have their moment, it makes you realize that we are doing work that matters.

Choose your sound!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:48:28] HARLOW: Indiana's decision to amend its so-called religious freedom law can be traced in large part to a lot of pressure from big businesses in the state and across the country, especially salesforce.com, that is the biggest tech employer in the state of Indiana.

The company's CEO, Marc Benioff, was among the first to come out loudly criticizing the new law before the governor even signed it. Then, on the eve of lawmakers' changing the law this week, I spoke to him about what drove him to fight so hard against it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARC BENIOFF, CEO, SALESFORCE.COM: We have a place now honestly who want to move out of the state of Indiana, were moving those employees out. There are customers of ours that I heard from all over the world, 90 percent of the people that I have heard of have been incredibly positive towards the actions that we have taken and want the law to change. I would say 10 percent of the people that I heard from are upset that we'd actually rebuff the governor. And I can understand that because he is a great guy, very likable, but in this case, the governor made a huge mistake, a huge mistake for himself and state of Indiana, and that must change.

HARLOW: You said you're actually moving people out of the state of Indiana right now?

BENIOFF: We are. I just got an email on the way here to the studio from another employee who said, look, I don't feel comfortable living in the state anymore. You got to move me out. And I gave them a $50,000 relocation package and said, great, you are clear to go. I've done that now several times. And, you know, my job as the CEO is to be an advocate for my employees and to be an advocate for my customers.

[15:50:08] HARLOW: You have called this the beginning of rolling economic sanctions against Indiana.

Marc, you're the CEO of a huge, huge tech company. What do economic sanctions against Indiana look like in dollar signs?

BENIOFF: Well, you see it from sales forces perspectives where we have already stopped travel in Indiana. We stop investment in Indiana. You see it from --

HARLOW: But I'm talking about how many millions, billions, what are we looking at across the board?

BENIOFF: Well, I think you're already seeing tens of millions and I think we are about to move into hundreds of millions.

HARLOW: Do you believe, Marc, that we're seeing a sea change, a fundamental shift in the willingness of corporate executives, businesses to come out and talk about incredibly controversial issues and take a stand one way or the other on the them? BENIOFF: Well, I certainly hope so. You know, I believe that the

most important thing in business is stakeholders, not shareholders. And in this case, the reason we're doing this is because we're focused on our stakeholders, those employees and customers who are traveling to the state of Indiana.

HARLOW: Why do you think it is right now, if this is indeed a change, why do you think it's now?

BENIOFF: I'll tell you why that is. We have a lot of dysfunction in our government right now. I think you know that. Everyone knows that. You can see it in Washington. Everyone is frustrated. We have been all working like heck to get this recovery going from 2008. And I think a lot of us are just sick and tired when politicians come in and slow down what can be a great country we have right here in the United States.

I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I'm an American. And all I want is to live in a great nation, which I do. And I want as part of that nation to have a quality for all and that's especially important for our customers and employees.

HARLOW: What do you say to those like Ted Cruz, Senator Ted Cruz for example said this, quote "Indiana is giving voice to millions of courageous conservatives across this country who are deeply concerned about the ongoing attacks upon our personal liberties." What do you say to him? That's his point on this.

BENIOFF: You know what, Ted Cruz is a great guy, but he's not running a company. And Ted Cruz is not responsible for growing his revenue. And Ted Cruz is not responsible for thousands of employees and customers. All I'm trying to do is do what's right for my company employees and customers and try to help them, support them and grow our revenues and profits. The damage, the reputational damage in Indiana in just a week has been extraordinary.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Well, after Indiana's governor signed a change to the law on Thursday, Marc Benioff sent this tweet. Quote "the new Indiana legislation is an important first step. The damage has been fixed and the door is open to the future." That said, his company, Sales Force, says they are still willing to relocate employees out of the state if they feel uncomfortable under this new law.

Coming up next, the final four in high gear in Indianapolis, by the way, kicking off tonight 6:00 eastern. We'll take you there live with our very own Rachel Nichols up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:57:04] HARLOW: All week there has been a lot of talk about what is happening in the state of Indiana where the final four is being played tonight.

CNN's sports anchor Rachel Nichols is in Indianapolis. You sat down, Rachel, with all of the coaches for the four teams in

sort of the finale hoorah here. And obviously, didn't just (INAUDIBLE), you talked about this controversial religious freedom restoration act. What did they say about it and whether they felt like they should be weighing in on the DEBATE, whether they talked to lawmakers, et cetera?

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes, well it's very interesting because remember, the NCAA headquarters are right here in Indianapolis. And by the way, also, they bring these events like the final four here quite often. These four days expected to do a half a billion dollars worth of business to the local community here. So that is a big economic foot to be able to put down.

And it really speaks to the power of sports and how much we as Americans invest in sports, how important it is to us that we throw so much money into it. So when the NCAA and the four schools involved in the final four, wanted to make a statement, they didn't just say something. The head of the NCAA actually met with the governor, actually met with senior Republican lawmakers here and told them that they would not be comfortable continuing to do business in this environment if there was not some sort of amendment to the law that offered some protection to the LGBT community.

So it was interesting to see them get involved at such a level. And when I sat down with coach K from Duke, he talked about how powerful athletes in sports can be in these situations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: How have you seen the power of sports effect social change in these moments?

MIKE KRZYZEWSKI, DUKE HEAD COACH: Well, I think our sport has done the most, you know, over the years, especially as far as race relations. And you know, we are playing in shorts, you see, are you white, are you African-American, are you Asian, are you, you know, who are you? And all of a sudden, you're working together, you sweat together, you are hugging together, you are talking, you are loving, you are fighting, in other words, you see people, that works, it works.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: It was interesting people on both sides saying that coaches and athletes should be commenting on this, Poppy, shouldn't be commenting on it. But I got to tell you, coaches especially, are educators at every level. But certainly at the college level, they are teaching 18, 19, 20-year-olds how to be citizens in the world and you want them to be involved in the communities that they are in, that they are playing in. It's a great lesson to lead by example.

Whatever side you fall at it, it doesn't matter. But have an opinion, be involved. I'm always thrilled when athletes and coaches take a stand on these issues. It's a great example to the people who look up to them, where the kids on their team saying, hey, this is your world, get involved in it, one way or another.

HARLOW: Yes. Look, we saw it from CEOs across the board, big business and we saw it from big, big, sports team as well, professional and college level.

Rachel Nichols, have fun at the games tonight. Kind a wish I was there with you. Thank you so much.

And reminder for all our viewers, tonight's game, PBS, 6:00 p.m. Eastern. You got Michigan State taking on Duke.