Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
An Elderly Man Is Going To Stand Trial For Allegedly Raping His Own Wife Because She Had Alzheimer`s; Husband Who Was In A Coma For Three Months, Comes Out Of It After Physicians Told His Wife That His Life Would Be Over; A White Police Officer Has Been Charged With Murder After Shooting A Black Man In The Back Claiming Self-Defense, Which Was Recorded On A Cell Phone Video; Bobbi Kristina Brown Has Shown No Improvement Since She Went Into Coma In January
Aired April 08, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:07] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, an elderly man is going to stand trial for allegedly raping his
own wife because she had Alzheimer`s. And the question was, could she consent to sex.
And, we got another husband who was in a coma for three months, comes out of it after physicians told his wife that his life would be over. What
if anything might this mean for Bobbi Kristina Brown?
Let us get started with breaking news. A white police officer has been charged with murder. Everyone has seen this terribly disturbing
video. This white officer shot a black man in the back claiming self- defense.
The incident recorded on a cell phone video. Now, I am going to show you the video. But, first a warning, it is quite graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(OBJECT FALLS TO GROUND)
(SHOTS FIRED)
FEIDIN SANTANA, A BARBER WHO FILMED THE POLICE KILLING OF WALTER SCOTT: Holy (EXPLICITIVEC WORD)
MICHAEL THOMAS SLAGER, WHITE SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE OFFICER: Put your hands behind your back now.
SANTANA: (EXPLICITIVEC WORD)
SLAGER: Put your hands behind your back.
(OFFICER HANDCUFFS MR. SCOTT)
(SIRENS)
(OFFICER PICKS UP OBJECT)
(OFFICER DROPS OBJECT)
SANTANA: (EXPLICITIVEC WORD)
(SECOND OFFICER CHECK FOR PULSE)
(OFFICER PICKS UP OBJECT)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com , Anneelise Goetz, attorney, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, Professor at Pepperdine
University, and Gary Tuchman, who is live in North Charleston, South Carolina right now. Gary, can you give us the latest?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN AMERICAN CABLE NEWS REPORTER: Yes, Dr. Drew. Michael Slager, the police officer, this is a much different situation than
we saw in Ferguson, much different situation than we saw on Staten Island, New York, because Slager has been fired from his job and is in jail and no
bond and charged with murder.
He may never see the blue sky again because he could be sentenced to life. He could even be sentenced to death. They have the death penalty
here in South Carolina. So, a big difference with the way this has been dealt with.
But we must point out, if this video did not exist, would this have happened? And, that is certainly a very open question. This happened over
the weekend. The initial local press reporting was taking the police officers for his word, that he was threatened.
He said his taser was taken away and that he fired as a self defense. This video appears to show that it is absolutely not true. So, without
this video we do not know what would happen.
But, what has happened is the police department and the mayor worked very quickly to fire him. The police department, the district attorney`s
office have put him in jail. And, he is charged with murder.
PINSKY: Gary, how is the community responding? It seems like this man`s -- the victim`s family has gone to great length to be thoughtful
about how they respond to this and to help sort of reduce potential violence in this community. How is the community respond sing?
TOUCHMAN: Well, first of all, Walter Scott`s mother is just an amazing, amazing woman. She is terribly sad, but she is very pious. And,
she said she has already forgiven the man who killed her son, which is absolutely a remarkable thing. People are very angry in this community,
not nearly what we have seen before across the country, because of the fact that this man is under arrest and charged with murder.
PINSKY: Thank you so much, Gary. Now, as Gary said, Walter Scott, the victim in this case, not the officer, the victim, was pulled over
because his Mercedes had a busted taillight. He, apparently, though had some warrants out for failure to pay child support.
I heard at one point, there might have been as many as nine arrests for these sorts of things, all nonviolent offenses. There appears in the
video perhaps to have been a scuffle as Mr. Scott then tried to run away and then the shooting. And, the officer said he feared for his life
because the man took his taser.
As Gary Tuchman just told us, that the video does not bear that out. And, Vanessa, what are we to make of all of this? I tell you, I look at
that video and I just -- I want to know what happened before because I cannot understand how somebody can stand there and just shoot somebody like
that who is running away.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Cold blooded killer. This is disturbing on so many levels. And, I just recently heard the man that
actually shot the video, I heard him come out and say that before there was a kind of scuffle on the ground. The officer had Scott on the ground and
somewhat pinned down but that he could hear the taser going off.
And, of course, if anyone is being tasered, they do not any longer want to be tasered. I could see him trying to get away. I could see that
being painful. I could see him wanting to run away from that situation. But, his back was turned and unfortunately, if it had not been for this
video, that officer would not be in jail.
And, it is crazy to me because forensics shows you that he was shot in the back. You do not even need a video. Forensics should tell you that
this man was shot running away at a far distance. This is disgusting.
PINSKY: I will tell you, Anneelise, the other thing that really got me and I spoke to a sergeant, a police officer today. And, he had the same
response I would think anyone would have who is watching this video.
That point where the police officer just starts firing so coldly. You know, the officer told me, the one I spoke to today, said, "You know,
usually if you are firing your gun, you are charged up, you are, but you know you are agitated."
And, the coldness with which this guy, you know, fired his firearm, he said, that to him was -- any officer looking at that video is ashamed today
just watching somebody behave like that.
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: And, you know something, Dr. Drew? What you are talking about is going to be important when we are looking at the
trial. Because his conduct is going to be measured against other police officers and what another reasonable police officer would have done in that
case.
Would they have been in fear for their safety? Would they have thought that this victim was a threat to the public? And, they are going
to look at that reasonableness of how he acted. Obviously -- and you hit on this, Dr. Drew, but we have not seen what happened before the video.
PINSKY: But, what could have happened before they could justify this? That is the thing. Look, here is discharging his weapon here. Just like
boom, boom, boom like he is firing at some sort of target practice.
And, then, what is for lunch now? What are we going to do? It is so -- I as someone looking at that want to know what happened first, because I
cannot make sense of what I am looking at. The mayor held a press conference today. And, in that conference things got a little heated.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: No justice.
GROUP OF PROTESTER: No peace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: No justice.
GROUP OF PROTESTER: No peace.
MAYOR KEITH SUMMEY, NORTH CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA MAYOR: And, I am talking to the media. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: The people are over here. The people are over here.
MAYOR SUMMEY: The people can hear --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: (INAUDIBLE)
MAYOR SUMMEY: We are about to close the press conference.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PRESS: Was there ever a fight over the taser? And, was there any truth to what the officer said?
MAYOR SUMMEY: I think if you --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: You think? The video shows. What are you, just still thinking?
MAYOR SUMMEY: I have not seen all of the video. So, therefore, I cannot answer the questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: You have not seen all of the video?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Vanessa, they called for, "No justice. No peace" in this case is a little problematic. I understand the emotion attached to this,
but justice is exactly what is happening here. The guy was immediately arrested. He was fired. The system --
BARNETT: I do not --
PINSKY: No, no, no. The system is -- what are they going to? Execute the cop? I mean it is --
BARNETT: No. I am not saying -- I think steps towards justice are being done. But, let us not forget the Eric Garner case. The man was
arrested. He was -- but then when you have the video right there in front of you, he still gets off. And, so we have this video. But, I am not
comfortable saying that justice is now served. We have no idea he will be convicted --
PINSKY: No. Justice is under way. Vanessa, you cannot -
BARNETT: Underway, yes, but that is not enough. I am sorry, that is not enough for us.
PINSKY: What is not enough? Of course, it is not enough in the big picture, but in terms of there being no peace in that community, what are
you going to do? What are you supposed to -- what are you going to do in the meantime? You have to let the justice process play out before you --
BARNETT: This is not just this moment. This is all the moments before it. This is all the charged up energy before this. This is us
still being frustrated that so many other officers have been --
PINSKY: Of course. Of course.
BARNETT: -- gotten off scot-free. So, yes, maybe in this moment it does not make sense because there are steps towards justice, but we do not
want to get complacent in that. We do not want to sit down and say, "You know what, in this case --
PINSKY: No. That is why we are covering this.
BARNETT: -- it will happen.
PINSKY: No, of course. That is why we are covering this. I want to show you, guys, a cartoon that caught my eye and my production staff`s eye
today. It was from the Star Tribune.
A few days after the George Zimmerman acquittal of the Trayvon Martin killing, it kind of goes to the core of some of these issues. And, when --
It is talking about the difference between what white Americans and black Americans think of as the talk with their children.
And, here is the white American. You see the birds and the bees over in the thought bubble, what the dad is describing to the young white boy.
And, then the African-American child, the father is describing justice and firearms and what to watch out for with distress on his face. This is --
this is -- you know, the fact that, that kind of thing has become -- Vanessa, help me with this.
BARNETT: It is very real. It is very real in the black community. I had to tell my husband the other day, he dropped me off at work early in
the morning. And, I had to ask him to please take off his hoodie, because I was scared for him to drive home because it was dusk and someone may
misconstrue him as a threat.
Like that is very real for me. And, I do not know if you are not in the community, if you can ever understand it. I am not saying you cannot
be sympathetic towards it. But, I do not know if anyone can ever understand how real that is unless they are in that community and
understand that just by the sheer color of my husband`s skin, he is considered a threat. That is very real.
PINSKY: And, can we all agree -- Judy, help me understand what we can do to dismantle that. The fact that if that is real, what do we do? How
do we solve it?
Judy, I will go back to you after the break. OK? I will give you a chance to answer that. I got more about this Michael Slager, the cop that
did the killing. You will hear what the officer said in court.
Later, Bobbi Kristina has been in a coma for 68 days. Her family says they are all cried out. We will explore what that means after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER SLAGER: 226 to dispatch, shots fired. Subject is down. He grabbed my taser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY SCOTT, WALTER SCOTT`S BROTHER: If there was not a video, would we know the truth? Or would we have just gone with what was reported
earlier?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF EDDIE DRIGGERS, NORTH CHARLESTON COUNTY POLICE OFFICER: I have watched the video and I was sickened by what I saw. He is terminated. He
is no longer here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SLAGER: I have two stepchildren and one on the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Vanessa, Anneelise and Judy. We are talking about a police officer charged with murder after shooting a black man in the back
while he was running away. The man who shot that video spoke to NBC news just a short time ago. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:14:54] SANTANA: Before I started recording, they were down on the floor. I remember the police had control of the situation. He had control
of Scott. And, Scott was trying just to get away from the taser. Because the taser, you know, you can hear the sound of the taser.
LESTER HOLT, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS ANCHOR: He had been tasered at that point?
SANTANA: Yes. Yes.
HOLT: And, you heard the sound.
SANTANA: Yes, I heard the sound before I started recording. And, I believe he just wanted to get away of the taser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judy, I want to give you a chance to talk about solutions here. I am just so -- I cannot believe that in the face of all these
events we have been reporting that here we are yet again.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: And, Dr. Drew, I think before we talk about solutions, we have to be really honest about the fact that
this is an ongoing problem, even in metropolitan areas where people believe they do not actually have any explicit biases between races anymore.
And, the fact is, there is implicit, unconscious biases operating all the time. And, even recent research has shown that many white people when
exposed to unfamiliar black faces, the fear and the startle response areas in the brain --
PINSKY: But, Judy -- Judy, I am aware of that research.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: But, my question is, given that that is a well-known phenomenon, cannot we educate ourselves about that? The guys who are
carrying the guns, cannot we educate them to be prepared for that?
HO: And, I think beyond education, Dr. Drew, the two main solutions we have are exposure and collaboration. Those are the two proven ways to
finally eradicate the type of firings --
PINSKY: What do you mean collaboration? You mean community policing, that sort of thing?
HO: No. I mean collaboration like when you have a bias against the certain race to actually be put in an environment where there is equity,
that you work together on a common goal. And, their contribution is important.
PINSKY: But, Vanessa, I understand talking to many black folk that even African-American policemen are seen as more blue than black and the
same problem exists even there.
BARNETT: That is true, and I think it depends on the situation. But, I think if you are a black man in the police force, you have -- you almost
feel like you may have to overcompensate, you may have to show that you are equal, so that may bring on more of a bias against your own community. I
am sure that is what happened --
PINSKY: That seems bizarre to me. That sounds terrible.
BARNETT: It is. It is crazy. It does not make sense --
PINSKY: It is crazy.
BARNETT: But can we also --
PINSKY: But why cannot we educate ourselves out of this in.
BARNETT: Two things.
PINSKY: Why cannot we lead our ways out of this.
BARNETT: Two things. One, I want to note that the second police officer that helped his police officer there, he was black.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: He was a black man, the second police officer that showed up and took that man`s pulse, when he was already clearly dead. So, that
corroboration and collaboration --
PINSKY: Was there.
BARNETT: -- obviously is there. Secondly, I just want to say, solutions, I am for body cameras. I do not know that they will always
work. I do not think there is 100 proof plan --
PINSKY: It is coming.
BARNETT: -- But it starts there.
PINSKY: It is coming.
BARNETT: And, then 2. I read that that officer went through multiple trainings with tasers, with guns, with X, Y and Z, but there was no
training on how to deal with situations where you may fear the black face for no reason. There were no training on racial sensitivity. There were
no training on how to enter into those communities. Where is that?
PINSKY: Which is weird when the profile of this community is very similar to Ferguson in that the most of the policemen are white and most of
the community is black. You would think with all we have been dealing with this would be job one. Would not you?
That people would be -- Listen, we should be able to -- here is part of the problem I have. You think about police as this sort of -- this
thing, this monolith, where in fact it is tens of thousands of little communities trying to field a team.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And, some of them cannot afford a big team. Some of them cannot afford the education. Some of them cannot afford the equipment.
Some of them cannot attract the right guys to be on the team and it is a huge issue.
It is a thousand little systems that need to be addressed here. There need -- I said this last time we were addressing this. There needs to be
some sort of uniform standard like there is in all other professions that everyone just lives up to.
I have a sheriff on the phone. His name is Sheriff Cunningham from Montgomery County, Alabama. Sheriff, I have spoken to other law
enforcement officers today who reacted very strongly to this video. I am wondering if you have any specific reactions today.
DERRIC CUNNINGHAM, SHERIFF, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ALABAMA: Well, when you first see the video -- I did not see the whole video. I saw just the
last segment of it. It makes you say, "Wow," you know? You cannot help but say wow. You are seeing the same video that I saw and it is shocking.
PINSKY: It is shocking, right? I look at it and want to make sense of it. And, I want to know what could have possibly happened before that,
that could help us even -- forget justify, just understand how this could happen. What do you suspect happened?
SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: I do not -- I cannot suspect. The only thing I know is what I saw on the last part of the video as far as what led to the
stop and all that other, you know, I did not see it.
PINSKY: Yes.
SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: But, this part that you see, it is shocking.
PINSKY: And, sheriff, I notice they do not seem to be providing any medical care to the victim. Is that normal procedure?
[21:20:00] SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: Well, as far as first responders as far as law enforcement, as far as being as being able to apply -- do CPR or
be able to apply pressure points, that is training that you got to have. And, we in law enforcement, normally, we will wait on the EMTs to arrive to
provide that. But, there is -- it is kind of hard to say. I am not there. I do not know.
PINSKY: Yes. Again, yes -- I do not --
SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: I do not know where the wounds were. I do not know.
PINSKY: Right.
SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: I cannot speculate.
PINSKY: I understand. Anneelise, you wanted to ask the sheriff something?
GOETZ: Yes. I was kind of wondering, sheriff, you said that you would not want to speculate what potentially was going on before the camera
started or what might have caused this. But, is not that exactly what most police officers are going to go to is, "Oh, well, maybe there was a fight
going on." He alleged that he went for his taser and you know, that is in question now.
PINSKY: Anneelise, let me ask you. You are asking him about it in the courtroom? The poor Sheriff Cunningham is in front of the public on
television and we are asking him to speculate. Is that what you mean, Anneelise?
GOETZ: I guess is what I am saying is, does the sheriff have any thoughts on, well, if there was a fight before that camera turned on, would
that maybe kind of explain the behavior a little bit?
SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: Well, you know, I cannot speculate as to whether they were fighting and all that. What I am saying is, you know, once the
threat is gone, the threat is gone.
PINSKY: Right.
SHERIFF CUNNINGHAM: You know? There is always another day.
PINSKY: Yes. Sheriff, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. My thoughts on this are the same as the sheriff is and
every other law enforcement. That picture you are looking at -- please put that up there again while I am talking.
Because the way he took aim -- just before this. The way he took aim at that man, regardless of the struggle, the man was lumbering away. There
may have been a struggle. There may be something that made this officer feel threatened, but there must have been a hundred other potential
responses, including running after the guy, calling for reinforcement.
There was another policeman available. This is what we look at and think, how is that possible? And, just like Sheriff Cunningham`s response,
other policemen who I have spoken to, police officers have said the same thing, which is they are ashamed. They are ashamed of it.
The cold blooded nature with which that man was shooting is something the kind of person that they want to go after and put away. And, so, to
see them as one of their own, regardless of what the justifications are, it is so deeply disturbing.
PINSKY: Next up, a husband is ordered to stand trial for the alleged rape of his own wife because loving couple, she had dementia.
And, later, Bobbi Kristina Brown has shown no improvement since she went into coma in January. What is the family likely to do now? Back
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Was it rape when a 78-year-old man had sex with his 78-year-old wife? Prosecutors in Iowa say yes. And, that is
because the woman who suffered from dementia and Alzheimer`s could not consent to having sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A roommate reported to the staff that the defendant had entered the room and pulled the curtains closed. She
then heard noises indicating to her that the defendant was having sex with the patient. On his way out, he discarded undergarments belonging to the
patient into a laundry bag located in the hallway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Henry Rayhons is charged with sexual abuse in the third degree for an incident that occurred in March of last
year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Vanessa, Anneelise, Judy and a segment we called, "Seriously." Vanessa, you cover this story with us a few months ago when
we were talking about it and what else do we know now?
BARNETT: What we know that Rayhons has pleaded not guilty. The jury selection is under way and he faces up to ten years in prison.
PINSKY: Crazy.
BARNETT: It is so sad.
PINSKY: It is crazy.
BARNETT: Because this is their second marriage for both of them. And, they were just so much in love. And, then you have these daughters --
her daughters from the first marriage that are making things very, very complicated.
PINSKY: Anneelise, what is wrong with your profession? What is going on here? It is a loving couple. She developed a cognitive disturbance.
And, the attorney gets a great idea. I am going to prosecute the husband for rape because he has had sex with his wife.
GOETZ: Dr. Drew, first of all --
PINSKY: Anneelise!
GOETZ: -- all he is doing is enforcing the law. You do not like the law, fine. Go, change it. But, the fact the matter is if she does not
have the mental capability to consent to the sexual relations, then it is going to be third degree sexual abuse.
And, he got the evidence. You guys can step in and say whether she had that ability to consent or not, but he has -- this prosecutor has a
report from the nursing facility that says she was unable to consent.
PINSKY: All right, Anneelise. Let us think about it. Hold on a second. People with -- even minimum cognitive impairment, by the way, have
more impairment than somebody who has had two glasses of wine. And, if you are in this state, even with two glasses of wine, you are not considered to
able to render consent because you are intoxicated.
So, should not we maybe make differentiation between intoxicated and a cognitive impairment? Because everyone with a cognitive impairment most
people over a certain age are not going to be able to have sex with their spouses. They are not going to be able to.
BARNETT: Right.
PINSKY: Because impairments are very, very common as you get older. What are we going to do with that? I am going to use your own arguments
against you. The slippery slope argument.
It is a slippery slope, and where do we start? Where do we stop? When is somebody able to render consent? When are they? And, which
cognitive impairments? What kind of cognitive impairments?
GOETZ: Well, that is when people like you step in, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: I think this thing is insane. Stop all ready.
GOETZ: And may tell us -- may tell us --
PINSKY: I will tell you. Stop this nonsense. By the way, people with Alzheimer`s, sometimes they cannot speak, they cannot remember what
they had for breakfast, but they can play the piano and often guess what? They still enjoy eating and they still enjoy having sex. They do.
BARNETT: Amen.
PINSKY: And, they are entitled do that with their spouses. Judy, you agree with me on this?
HO: Of course, Dr. Drew. This is not the man`s job to evaluate his spouse`s cognitive ability from day to day. He is not the professional.
All, he knows is he is there spending quality time with his wife. And, as far as he is concerned, they have always enjoyed having sex, so why not
have sex that day.
There is no issue here from my perspective. I think that people are making this a completely different case when there is actually nothing here
that suggests that this man meant any harm to his wife.
[21:30:06] PINSKY: Vanessa -- I will give you a chance Anneelise. Hold on a second. Vanessa, I am going to give you a chance. Go ahead.
BARNETT: Look, I hope if I have dementia that my husband still wants to lay it down.
PINSKY: Of course. Of course. Yes.
BARNETT: Look, I just hope when I am 60s --
PINSKY: You hope you enjoy food. You hope enjoy standing outside.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: You hope you enjoy having sex with your spouse. You hope he still enjoys being with you.
BARNETT: And, are not there studies that show this kind of love and affection and hugging and being close helps these types of patients?
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Extremely positive.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: And, more and more and more the care of the demented patients about giving them choices about what they eat and what they want, even when
they have difficulty communicating that sort of thing.
HO: Exactly.
PINSKY: That is how you enhance their quality of life. But, Anneelise, you and your profession says no?
GOETZ: Everyone has to remember, this guy was told that your wife cannot consent to sex, OK? And, he knows that she has Alzheimer`s. He can
he see her deteriorating. This is not like she is at home and they have a regular h relationship.
HO Oh my gosh!
PINSKY: But why is that different?
GOETZ: Because he was told. He was told. He was on notice that medical professionals believe she does not have consent. He was told to
stop having sexual relations with her. And, Dr. Drew, remember, that when the justice system got involve and needed to appoint a guardian for her --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: They did not choose this loving husband that we are all talking about, they chose her daughters.
PINSKY: What was that? Yes, you are right.
GOETZ: They said her daughters are more capable of her care.
PINSKY: More capable. The question I have is do they muscle him out?
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Because he should have been the, de facto, have durable power of attorney, right? And, the daughters apparently have a little bit of a
clash over whether to put the mother in a home.
And, then one of them became the guardian and conservator. So, it feels that there was more going on here than meets the eye. But, do you
have any speculation about that, Emily? That did catch my eye as well.
GOETZ: I mean, yes. I think that right now, he is being painted as this loving, adoring husband. But when the judge came in who got a lot
more information than we do, they looked at this case -- that judge of this case and said, "The more appropriate guardians are the daughters." And,
you guys, think about if that was your mom and you thought your mom was being victimized by your stepfather.
PINSKY: Victimized?
GOETZ: I mean --
HO: Oh my goodness. This is not a victimization.
GOETZ: Victimized, yes. Because if she cannot make the consent and again --
HO: No.
GOETZ: And, again, I am deferring to you, guys, on whether she can make the consent or not, but there is a report saying that she cannot.
There is a medical report saying that she cannot that they are aware of.
PINSKY: She cannot --
GOETZ: He was aware of, I am sorry.
PINSKY: She cannot -- it depends what we call consent, I guess.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: But, here is the deal. Maybe he has a little -- minimal cognitive impairment as well. Maybe that is why the daughter got the
conservatorship. Judy, I mean, maybe that was the issue.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: And, so, he cannot render consent either, right?
HO: That was the first thing that I thought of, Dr. Drew was that maybe he is aging and having his own medical difficulties. And, that is
why the daughters were rendered more capable as being the guardian and to be the conservator.
But guess what? If both of them are slightly deteriorating, this is one way that people can still connect with each other. It does not matter
if she cannot verbally say yes, that is pleasurable.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: Yes, I like that. She could still feel it. That is still positive outcome.
PINSKY: We have to get on top of this because our population is aging. The number of people with Alzheimer`s is growing. I have
statistics about that up next. These are big numbers. And, many of us are going to be in that category, not too distant future and sure as heck
better be able to dictate what is we want to be entering into in our later years.
And, later, speaking of later, Bobbi Kristina Brown`s family is so- called all cried out. She has been in a coma since January. She is not like that and will never be like that ever again. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:37:45] DALE RAYHONS, HENRY RAYHONS` SON: I have a hard time even trying to comprehend what dad is going through right now. Because he had
to not only have the denial of being with his wife, watching her progress with her dementia, moving into a care center, not being able to see her and
then ultimately her death and then being charged with rape. Shocked is not the word for it. It is anger, shock, disbelief. It is so many things that
it is hard to fathom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is hard to fathom. I am back with Vanessa, Anneelise and Judy. And, that voice was the son of 78-year-old Henry Rayhons, who has
been charged with sexually assaulting his wife, who could not render consent because she had dementia of the Alzheimer`s type.
According to report, the couple was deeply in love. Vanessa, I know you are tweeting actively about this. I caught those. Thank you very much
for making fun of me, but this is a sad, sad story.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: It is.
PINSKY: And, you know, we can laugh about it. It is hard to ponder. I am trying to make sense of it. But, listen, according to the Alzheimer`s
association, the number of people in the U.S., 65 or older, will reach 70 million by 2030.
BARNETT: Wow.
PINSKY: And, because age is a major risk factor for dementing diseases, the number of people with Alzheimer`s probably will soar by 44
percent by 2025. And, so we need to prepare for this. And, we really need to understand what relationships are going to be like when people`s
cognition is not what it was when they were 25.
BARNETT: Absolutely. Especially when both parties could probably have these issues. And, so what do you do? How do you police the
situation without interfering in a loving couple? And, then on top of all of this, this man is grieving.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: He cannot even grave properly because he is in a jail cell. They are trying to lock him up forever and he is 78. Like this is just --
I feel like the taxpayers` dollars and the effort of this prosecutor can be used elsewhere.
PINSKY: Right. Anneelise, is this really the intent of our government to be able to intrude into a marital relationship that is merely
changed because of alteration in the sickness versus health balance, not that somebody is being violated or exploited? It is just part of the arch
of the biology of living that we now have because we live so damn long.
[21:40:09] GOETZ: But you are making a conclusion there, Dr. Drew, that no one has been exploited. And, no one has been abused. And, this
prosecutor believes that she has been abused. She believes that -- he believes that there was rape.
PINSKY: He is trying to make a name for himself. I bet you. He wants to get in the press.
GOETZ: You know what is important here --
PINSKY: It is hard for me to believe that.
GOETZ: What is important is, as you just touched on, this is going to be a huge issue our country has to deal with.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
GOETZ: And, the fact of the matter is, this is the first time we are seeing it. So, you know, people should be paying attention to this case,
because it is going to dictate cases and how nursing facilities are going to act around the country.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. That is true. Judy, who are these czars? What do we do with this? We just stay out of it, entirely? Do we have certain
criteria? Does anything pop into your head? It is, actually, rather complicated.
I am making light of it. There do need to be criteria, clearly, but not just getting in the middle of every marital relationship because
somebody has dementia. That is absolutely outrageous in my opinion.
HO: Absolutely outrageous, Dr. Drew. And, as you mentioned, are there criteria? Well, there are lots of people who say that they have
evaluated this person and they cannot make medical decisions or any decisions about themselves. And, that is not true, Dr. Drew. A really
comprehensive evaluation takes days sometimes to really figure that out.
PINSKY: Yes. And, by the way, no one will pay for those sorts of evaluations.
HO: Exactly.
PINSKY: Those are thousands of dollars. But, my goodness, if you can decide whether you want cake or ice cream -- I do not know. Maybe that is
-- is that enough? I do not know. On this show a few months ago, I asked Henry Rayhons`, the son, about this alleged confession made by his father.
Here is what he had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DALE RAYHONS: Well, the interview was very speculative. There is a lot of parts of the interview that was close to a two-hour interview.
Again, if you take bits and pieces of the interview, yes, you can consider it a confession. But, only if you piecemeal it together is the actual what
the state is saying they are confessions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, I got some thoughts. And, it is fundamentally that we have to begin to be at more sophisticated about this. We do need
real professionals. Anneelise, thank you for deferring to the people that do know this topic.
Those of us that work with elderly patients, with dementia patients need to begin to frame this conversation and have it as we move forward
fundamentally. I think the government has no business in a marital relationship, fundamentally, as a principal.
However, they do have a responsibility to protect where there is exploitation. And, we need to be able to come up with criteria. And, I am
being somewhat facetious but not completely so when I say, if somebody could choose ice cream versus cake as something they want that satisfies
their biological needs in that moment.
I do not know, maybe that is something that can consent to sex. I do not know. I do not know. We need to really look at this. The problem
with every individual case -- if you are going do it for everybody with dementia, it is too expensive.
It is too expensive to do formal evaluations on everybody. So we are going to have to come up with criteria that are more practical and to stay
out of everybody`s business for the most part.
Next up, Bobbi Kristina Brown in a coma for 68 days now. Will she remain that way forever? And, a reminder you can connect with us on
Facebook. You can see our after show. They are on Facebook. We will be there today. Tell us what you think about anything at all. Be back after
this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is ten days in a coma. This does not look good at all. In a coma now for 12 days. Over a month in a coma. 33 days in a coma.
Almost 40 days. 39 days with no meaningful brain function.
It is the cruelest thing I could possibly do. It is cruel. You talk about playing God. That is playing God, everybody. That is how we play
God, not by withdrawing care, but by keeping people in suspended animation for extended periods of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is exactly the point. I am with Vanessa, Anneelise, Judy and the story you are tweeting about most tonight, Bobbi Kristina
Brown`s condition unchanged since she was found unresponsive, drowned in her bathtub, 68 days ago.
68 days in a coma on a ventilator, unable to breathe on her own, No swallowing, no eye opening, no meaningful response to the external
environment and excessive seizuring when any attempt is made to withdraw medication. Her grandmother Cissy Houston shared this update.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Have you heard anything? Do you know how Bobbi Kris is doing? How is she doing?
CISSY HOUSTON, BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, she is the same.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: She is the same.
HOUSTON: Moved her now to a place for rehabilitation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
HOUSTON: And, you know, still not a great deal of hope. We are praying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A family source tells "People" Magazine, they love Bobbi Kristina. They want her to recover. She is not going to. Even if she
were to have any sort of recovery, Judy, the state she will be in will be essentially a vegetative state.
She certainly will not be Bobbi Kristina. She will be something else. And, it is, frankly, delaying the inevitable and allowing grief to
determine and dictate care. Do you agree?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. And, unfortunately, the grieving process and all the stages of brief cannot start until this family lets go of her
physically, because while she is there physically, they are left to their tiny spec of hope that really withholds the grieving process from this
family.
PINSKY: That is right. Now, Vanessa, you have been with me through this whole thing. You have been sort of struggling with me. Do you get
the picture now? Is it coming into focus for you?
BARNETT: It does come in to focus, but I think maybe we have some facts wrong. I think maybe this whole entire family is not holding out
this hope. It sounds to me like Cissy -- If Bobby Brown came to her and said --
PINSKY: She seems pretty reasonable.
BARNETT: She seemed pretty reasonable.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BARNETT: I think she is ready to let go. If they did unplug the machines or however that works, I think she would be OK with that decision.
I think it is solely on Bobby Brown. I think he is having difficulty.
[21:50:00] PINSKY: I think so, too.
BARNETT: I feel like guilt is there, but I also feel like some other things may be in play tha we just do not know.
PINSKY: You are talking about something with some wrangling over something we do not know about her?
BARNETT: It could be wrangling, but it could be -- I just feel like Emory is such a great hospital. And, I know that she is moved from that
facility, but I feel like if they spoke to Bobby Brown the way you speak to me, there would be no other reason other than to let her go.
PINSKY: I have a nurse specialist who is joining me, Alice Benjamin. She is a clinical nurse specialist. Alice, thanks for joining us. I love
having nurses in here, because nurses are the one that end up doing the futile care.
You are the ones -- they are with the family, with the patient, day in and day out, watching the skin slough off, watching the joints contract,
watching the secretions build up. How do we get people to understand that these are hopeless situations that only delay the inevitable and cause
agony and suffering for the patient?
ALICE BENJAMIN, R.N., CLINICAL NURSE SPECIALIST: Well, Dr. Drew, everyone is suffering in this process. The person that is laying in the
bed that I am taking care of is suffering. And, as nurses, we suffer too, because we feel the patient`s pain and also the family, the friends, the
visitors, they are suffering.
But there is nothing like taking care of that patient and see, as you mentioned, all of those things that can happen. The longer we have someone
on life support, we are actually putting them at risk for other things. And, the family does not see that.
PINSKY: And, they are inevitable. There is going to be pneumonia.
BENJAMIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: There is going to be urinary sepsis. There is going to be skin --
BENJAMIN: Their skin is going to break down.
PINSKY: -- skin infection.
BENJAMIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: It is going to happen. And, if you back off some of the support measures, God will take her instead of us playing God. I am going
to show you some Facebook posts, Alice.
Katie says, "If it takes (Bobbi) five years, then it takes him five years. No one can make that decision for him. No one has to live with
that decision but him." But, how do we get people to get to the point where they can make these decisions effectively?
Brian on Facebook, "Because they have money, they are making the selfish decision to keep her body animated by machinery. Do you have any
idea how the body starts to break down when kept alive by machines? It is not like "Sleeping Beauty."
And, Alice that is a wonderful way of saying that. And, that is what we have such trouble getting people to understand it. It is not sleeping
beauty. It is something far more gruesome.
BENJAMIN: Right, and it is not sleeping beauty, but because of the medications that we give them, when we medically induce someone to a coma,
they look comfortable. They look peaceful. But, actually, there is nothing peaceful about being on life support.
PINSKY: That is right.
BENJAMIN: There is so many things going on. And, actually, the patient can be in a lot of pain and can be suffering.
PINSKY: The only they could be is suffering and in pain.
BENJAMIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Because they have no other relationship with the outside world. Next up, many of you were asking about the man who woke up from a
three-month coma. I will say it again. There are comas and then there are comas. But, I have a bunch to say about that particular case. You guys
keep notifying me about it. I will tell you about that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:56:51] PINSKY: This is not the kind of coma that people come out of after a year or two years. And, if somebody does come out of it, they
will wish they had not. I am not wishing that she should die. I am not wishing that at all.
Bobbi Kristina would not want to wake up from this coma. There are comas and then there are comas. You want to be in a coma so you can be
rendered in a vegetative state for an indefinite period of time? Is that ok with you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa, Anneelise, Judy and Nurse Alice Benjamin. Now, lots of you sent me a story on Facebook and Twitter about a
young man who was in a coma with a brain injury after a motorcycle accident. The physicians gave him a 10 percent chance of recovery, advised
his wife to let him go.
Now, they also said, let him go because they said they would not want to recover if they were in the 10 percent category. They would not want
to be a recovering person in that 10 percent category.
Therefore, let us let this go. She did not. He regained consciousness months later. And there he is now. And, guess what? He is
gone. That is a different person now. The guy that that woman was married to, I know she expects him to return. He is not coming back.
Because those parts of his brain are gone. So, now, you have a different person on your hand with massive liability. He himself may wish
that they had let him go at some point. That is what I --
BARNETT: Oh.
PINSKY: No -- wait, who is saying that? Vanessa, that is what I hear from patients that get in that condition.
BARNETT: That is not what you have heard from him.
PINSKY: I am telling you what I hear from patients that family pull them through things where they come out severely impaired. Not all of
them, but a significant percentage will say things like that.
Now, A family source tells "People" Magazine Bobbi Kristina`s relatives are all cried out. Things have quieted down. The question is
will they withdraw some of her care? Alice, what would you tell this family were they in your care?
BENJAMIN: Well, I would ask the family, what would you want if it were you? Because the road to recovery if she were ever to come out of the
coma, which is likely not to happen.
PINSKY: You know, by the way, let me interrupt you to say, it is zero.
BENJAMIN: It is zero. It is zero.
PINSKY: It is not 90 percent like they told this woman. In this particular case, it is zero.
BENJAMIN: Right. Right.
PINSKY: Her brain is liquefied. And, it is zero.
BENJAMIN: Absolutely. And, her injury is a lot different than the gentleman that you are referring to.
PINSKY: A lot different. A lot different.
BENJAMIN: A lot different.
PINSKY: That is right.
BENJAMIN: So, you know, it is a tough job to take care of someone like that. And, I know it is your loved one. It is hard to let go. But,
you got to think about a quality of life.
And, sometimes it is not holding that person here on earth but allowing natural progression of life to happen and to let Bobbi Kristina
go. And, if I was the nurse taking care of Bobbi Kristina and had the opportunity to talk to the family, you know, I would talk to them about
that.
PINSKY: Yes.
BENJAMIN: About letting her go.
PINSKY: About letting God have her. Letting God have her.
BENJAMIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Judy, you know, you are the only person that is not shaking your head when I say the people that survive injuries like this often times
are so depressed and so disorganized and so impaired they ask questions like, "Why did not you let me go?"
HO: That is right. And, you have seen it several times. You have seen it many times. And, this is part of the problem here is that this is
mostly a selfish motive from the family`s point of view. Some of them may not be ready to let her go. They need to deal with guilt. Move on and let
her be free of the possible pain she is feeling on the life of her.
PINSKY: I agree with Alice, 100 percent. She framed it exactly correctly. It is the nurses that are in there suffering with these
families. DVR us then you can watch us any time. "Forensic Files" begins immediately following this program, starts now.
END
