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Tulsa Shooting; Iran Deal; Clinton Campaign Event. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired April 14, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much.

[14:00:00] Great to be with you on this Tuesday. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're with me on CNN.

I want to begin this hour with that volunteer deputy who admitted he shot and killed a man by accident. He said he confused his gun for his Taser. Today, 73-year-old Robert Bates turned himself in as his attorney spoke out against the second-degree manslaughter charge his client now is facing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARK BREWSTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We will defend this in a court of law. And that's what we're going to do. And when he has his opportunity to speak at the conclusion of the case, he will do so, OK? Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you fell about the charge?

BREWSTER: I fell that they're unwarranted and shouldn't have been brought.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?

BREWSTER: That's it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clark, can you talk about how this benevolence has somehow turned out to be something evil?

BREWSTER: Yes, that - that's a surprising thing. They've took - they've taken the fact that this man has been good to the community and has been benevolent to the community and has been a great citizen for our town and made it something bad or sinister.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me take you back just to the last part of that attorney's statement here. It's referring to the donations that this man, Robert Bates, made in the past to the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office, as well as contributions he made to the sheriff's election campaign. A reserve deputy since 2008, Bates left the jail soon after he was booked there today. Earlier this month, officials say he was acting as support for this undercover sting operation when 44-year-old Eric Harris ran. Other deputies tackled him, and that is when Bates fired his .357 instead of his Taser as he intended. We have the video of the moment it happened. Again, just a warning, you see a man die. So, obviously, it's tough to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roll your stomach now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I shot him. I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He shot me. He shot me.

(INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Oh, he shot me. He shot me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now is criminal defense attorney Tom Mesereau, who once defended Michael Jackson.

Tom, welcome back to you.

I just wanted to begin with this phrase "excusable homicide." This is what Mr. Bates' attorney is arguing that this was a mistake. You hear the audio. You hear Mr. Bates saying, I'm sorry, this was a mistake. But can you explain "excusable homicide" to me. When is homicide ever excusable?

TOM MESEREAU, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what it's going to mean is this case is the following. The defense is going to argue that this man is a good citizen. He has no criminal record. He volunteers his time for the community. He makes donations to the police department. And that he did not created the situation. The defense is going to say that a serious criminal who was trying to sell guns to an undercover agent set the stage, created the situation, tried to get away. That this man did his best with what he knew to cope with the situation and made an honest mistake.

The prosecutors are going to say that it was not simply a mistake. It rose to the level of culpable, reckless homicide which they call manslaughter. I think it's a defense lawyer's dream. I think it's going to be a tough case to get a conviction on. Of course it always depends on who's on the jury.

BALDWIN: You do?

MESEREAU: I do. I do.

BALDWIN: You do? I mean I was -

MESEREAU: I think this man is going to - I - go ahead, I'm sorry.

BALDWIN: No, no, please, you continue. You think this man -

MESEREAU: I think the man's going to testify. I think he's going look at the jury and say I made an honest mistake. I did my best under the stress of the moment. He's 73 years old. Apparently he has an exemplary record. The defense will put on character witnesses to show what kind of a person he is. And I think, at the end of the day, they have a very good shot at acquittal. That doesn't mean the charges aren't warranted. I understand what the prosecutors are doing. They're saying this kind of conduct cannot be tolerated. That it's up to a jury to decide.

BALDWIN: You know, Tom, I was actually - I was hosting a show last night and I was talking to Mr. Bates' attorney. And even before he talked to me live on CNN, he was saying, you know, listen, mistake happen. Officers make mistakes. Doctors make mistakes. You know, thousands and thousands of mistakes each and every year. My question to you would be, is it fair to compare the two? And when I think of doctors, for example, I think of wrongful death lawsuits. I think of lawsuits, not slapping someone with second-degree manslaughter charges.

MESEREAU: Sure. Oh, I think the defense will definitely argue that this is a civil case, not a criminal case. The man should not be staring at the possibility of being a convicted felon the rest of his life. That the case belongs in civil court, not criminal court.

BALDWIN: What about the fact, as I mentioned at the top, you hear Mr. Bates say, I'm sorry, this is a mistake. You also hear some pretty foul language, which I'm going to get into in the next segment. Again, that wasn't this particular officer. You know, when you talk to the attorney for Mr. Bates he'll say he was supposed to play a supportive role. He was the last patrol car in a long line. Wasn't supposed to be directly involved in this sting. Was supposed to help participate in inventory of this apartment post arrest. Obviously all of that went awry. But knowing that, how much of that might help this case?

[14:04:57] MESEREAU: Well, the defense is going argue that this was a serious felon who was a threat to the community, that he was trying to sell guns to an undercover agent, and that guns kill people. Unlike the South Carolina case where a man was pulled over for a busted taillight and was a threat to nobody, they're going to say that this was a serious case, that the victim set the stage, forced everybody to go after them. There was concern that he might have a gun himself and that this was an honest mistake and doesn't rise to the level of felony conduct.

BALDWIN: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Tom Mesereau, thank you very much.

And let me move. It wasn't just the fact that Eric Harris was shot that disturbs his family today, it's what happened after that when Harris was on the ground, in obvious distress. Let me play another clip from this takedown. And again a warning, it's disturbing to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't do (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn't do (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You hear me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm losing my breath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) your breath. Put his hands back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Just after the deputy surrendered today, the family of Eric Harris released a statement saying they are pleased with the charges. But the Harris family also said this. Let me quote this. This is key. "Sheriff Glance (ph) has not addressed the callous statements made by a deputy to Eric after he had been shot. We have not heard Sheriff Glance address the deputy who forcefully grinded Eric's head into the concrete with his knee while Eric was in need of emergency medical attention. We have yet to see any remorse on the part of the TCSO or any indication that it is going to change its policies."

Let's - let's - let's talk a little bit more about this language used and the broader repercussions here and the significances with Steven Thrasher. He's a doctoral fellow at New York University and a writer at large for "The Guardian." And he just wrote a piece entitled "The Inhumanity of F Your Breath Should Stop Us Cold."

Steven, a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much.

STEVEN THRASHER, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, BUZZFEED: Thank you so much for having me on, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Stop us cold because why?

THRASHER: Because it's a completely callous disregard for human life. We are seeing the disregard of black life throughout the country, but especially in this case. You have a man who is accused of crimes. We are not extending habeas corpus to him. The way that we hear people talk about the shooter, we are supposed to think that he is innocent. But the man who has been killed, has been murdered frankly, is left to die. And even after he's been shot without a court of law, this group of officers have decided that he is guilty, that he was worthy of being executed. Even when the one officer is saying it was a mistake, we see the knee go onto the head of Mr. Harris. We see foul language used. We are protecting their faces visually. You don't see their faces. But we see this man -

BALDWIN: But you're saying this is way deeper than even what we're seeing in the video. That this goes back to a sense of institutionalized racism is what you write about?

THRASHER: Yes, it certainly does. The - there are many problems with a case like this, but the most damaging is that we think that it's an aberration. And it's not. We can a conference at NYU this weekend where we looked at policing and you can connect policing and its racial form to slave patrols, to the KKK, to the protection of property, to the way that black life is disregarded in capitalism through industry throughout American history. And a world where we didn't need polices is a better thing that we should be going toward, not just a world where we have more cameras to record horrors like this.

BALDWIN: I hear your side of it. The other side, as you well know, you have law enforcement - I had someone here who was with the NYPD for a long, long time saying, listen, Brooke, policing isn't pretty. And now with all these cameras and body cameras, et cetera, it's sort of lifting the veil of what we have to do on the streets with, in some cases, dangerous felons. This is just part of the conversation I had here on CNN last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not playing hop scotch here with this guy, all right. The thing is, when you've got a guy and you're trying to handcuff him and you still haven't got him cuffed yet, they all yell "I can't breathe." Well, you know what, if you can't breathe, you can't say "I can't breathe." All right? That we know for a fact.

BALDWIN: But on the officer saying "f your breath" or "I don't give an f."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, well, you know, you're in the middle of a fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You're in the middle of a fight. It's a tough - it's a tough business. I mean that's what a lot of members of law enforcement will say and a lot of members of law enforcement are upstanding, incredible men and women.

THRASHER: But law enforcement should be difficult work. I was talking to my brother this weekend about how in the movie "Touch of Evil" Charlton Heston's character, of all people, says that policing should be hard. It's only not hard in a policed state. And we're in a position right now where we're in a policed state. This does not actually look that hard for these people. You have a 73-year-old volunteer paying to join the police department kind of as a game. You have these men, very callous -

BALDWIN: He wouldn't say it's a game, I'm just guessing, according to his lawyer.

THRASHER: You have these very callous men not taking it seems like their work seriously. They're using foul language. They're being incredibly inhumane. They're not calling emergency medical services. And it gets too easy for them to do this kind of stuff. It looks balsa the way they're talking.

BALDWIN: Here's another interesting part of your piece because we've talked a lot - really especially since - not even necessarily Ferguson, but since the Eric Garner case here in New York, on Staten Island, and there's the video of the police officers trying to arrest him and the whole role of, you know, where are the body cameras, where are the dash cameras from these police units. And you write this. "The footage of Harris' murder was captured by the type of camera of which President Obama wants 50,000 more. To what end? To better document the pornography of our genocide, to allow Tulsa officials to say with impunity that the next Bob Bates, the 73-year-old play to play volunteer cop who shot Harris, also meant to use a Taser and not a gun?" Why do you argue that way? That that's different by - from so many other people I've talked to.

[14:10:10] THRASHER: It is because just reducing the amount of police violence is not a good frame for thinking about this, saying, oh, body cameras could reduce it by 60 or 70 percent. We don't want to be having cops violating our bodies. And I want to - BALDWIN: Is it not a step forward in the right direction?

THRASHER: I think it's a misdirection because we want to look at a world where this type of stuff is not needed. I mean you can look at any aspect of policing and it's racialized. The way cops are trained. We've seen many instances of this where the - the images that they're used to shoot at are of black people. Arrests are disproportionately black. Violence is disproportionately black. Even police dogs, if you look at the statistics around who police dogs attack, it's very racialized.

BALDWIN: Give me one example of what would be a step in the right direction, if it's not body cameras, if it's not dash cams.

THRASHER: A step in the right direction would be to be taking money out of the prison industrial complex, putting that money back in education, looking at really effective ways to address income inequality. It's not just, you know, a 2016 campaign thing. It means looking at why are black people shut out generation after generation from slavery reconstruction, to industrialization, to post industrialization from education and opportunity and putting money in those areas, not just waiting for something horrific to happen and documenting it after the fact and saying, if we document it enough, we can reduce it a little but we're not going to do anything about the systemic problem that made such a situation happen in the first place.

BALDWIN: Steven Thrasher, I appreciate your perspective and your coming on my show. Thank you very much.

THRASHER: Thank you so much for having me.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, word of a compromise involving Congress and the controversial nuclear deal with Iran. We have those details for you ahead from Washington.

Also, any moment now, Hillary Clinton will be holding her first event in Iowa. A round table. These are pictures from Monticello, Iowa. We're watching and waiting for her.

And fireworks inside a courtroom over one of America's biggest school cheating scandals. This judge finally sentencing nearly a dozen educators.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sit down or I'm going to put you in jail. If you yell at me, point or anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've been yelling at me, judge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:16:16] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

President Obama calls it a once in a lifetime chance to block Iran's path to a nuclear bomb, but now a final deal with Tehran may hinge on what Congress decides to do with it. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee right now starting to debate this bipartisan bill that would force the White House to allow Congress to review, possibly reject, any deal with Iran. Secretary of State John Kerry on Capitol Hill asking Congress not to interfere with those delicate negotiations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope Congress will listen carefully, but also give us the space and the time to be able to complete a very difficult task.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Kerry wants time, two and a half months to be exact, to hash out a deal without meddling from Congress. Joining me now from Capitol Hill, Athena Jones, our CNN correspondent here.

And, Athena, first, let's just begin with what - what is in this bill?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Brooke.

Well, I should mention, new information coming in to us from my colleague, Jim Acosta, at the White House. He says that according to White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest, the president would be willing to sign this bill as it stands right now, this compromise reached between Chairman Corker and the ranking - the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Ben Cardin, as it stands right now. But if it's changed, of course, during this committee process that we see getting underway, all bet are off.

Let's tell you what's in that new compromise agreement. This bill would, of course, require the presidents to submit the final deal to Congress for a review. During the review period, the president would not be able it temporarily waive the sanction that have been imposed by Iran by Congress on Iran. So Congress would have up to 52 days to review the bill. There's an initial 30-day review period. And then after that, if Congress sends a bill, either a resolution of approval or disapproval to the president, there's another 12 days that's tacked on to that review. But all in all, it's a 52-day review process.

The deal would also require the president to certify that Iran is complying with the deal every 90 days. And it would require the president to provide Congress with detailed reports on a range of other issues, like a report on the -- on Iran's nuclear program, reports on its ballistic missiles program and also on whether it is sponsoring terrorism anywhere around the world and especially against America and its allies.

So that's the language that we expect to be voted on a little while from now in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. We expect it to pass unless new amendments are added on. But generally speaking, once a compromise like this is reached, they try to keep away any amendments that would derail it. And if it passes - when it passes this committee, I'm told that it will go to the Senate floor, quote, "soon."

Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. We'll watch that - for that committee vote first. Athena Jones on Capitol Hill, thank you very much.

Next, we're watching, we're waiting, we've got some live picture for you. This is Monticello, Iowa. Hillary Clinton is holding her first big event as a presidential candidate. Can she shift the tide in Iowa after her stunning third place caucus? Remember that eight years ago? We'll see what's about to happen during the roundtable chat.

Also, napping on the job. You heard about this? One airport luggage worker takes that to a whole new level, waking up in the cargo hold after the plane had taken off. Hello. Find out how he got back down on the ground safely.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:23:42] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Iowa. Iowa has a way of surprising, sometimes definitely disappointing political front-runners and campaign experts. Hillary Clinton learned that the hard way eight years ago. Now she is back. Live pictures here as we are about to see she is back, introducing herself to Iowa voters. She's holding, as you can see, a very small discussion with students. This is Kirkwood Community College in Monticello, Iowa.

So let's bring in our political A-team to talk about it. I understand I have Brianna Keilar, who is following her every move. She's on the phone with me, I believe, from this community table. I've got Jeff Zeleny in D.C. He's our senior Washington correspondent. I also have Donna Brazile, our Democratic strategist, and Margaret Hoover, a Republican strategist and Sirius XM host.

So welcome to all of you.

And, Brianna Keilar - guys, let's throw the live picture up full because, Brianna, here's my first question. Let's just talk about location, location, location. I know that this is a community school. I know it's a small venue. I'm seeing a hood of a car open near where I presume Hillary Clinton will be seated. Can you talk to me about why they chose this location?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): I think they picked it because they were trying to give a sense of what may be a first campaign stop or even an initial pre-campaign stop might be for a candidate who doesn't have the name recognition, the 100 percent name recognition that Hillary Clinton does. I've spoken with some Iowa operatives who said they think that this is actually really smart. You know, she came in big last time in 2008 and ultimately it didn't serve her very well. So, coming in with a little more humility and asking people questions and getting to know their views, but also needing to come out and talk about what she thinks about different topics is going to be key to her success here in Iowa. So far talking to some Democratic voters in Iowa, they like it. They think it's good.

[14:25:33] BALDWIN: OK. On that, Jeff Zeleny, let me just go to you, because as Brianna was alluded to, you know, eight years ago she flew on in a big, fancy jet. She wasn't in this Scooby Doo of a van. This is what I'm hearing they've nicknamed it. And, you know, she's coming in, she's speaking in this smaller community college. She's not filling some big stadium. She's stopping in diners along the way. Why do you think this might work?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, they believe it will work because they believe that they need to let people get close to Secretary Clinton and shake her hand, touch her, sort of gain that trust that they may have lost over the years or, you know, have just forgotten some things about her. So they believe the smaller version, you know, being up close and personal with her. And more important than that, the picture of this, you know, and the local newscast that this will be broadcast across Iowa on, they believe that that is a good introduction of the kind of campaign that she will be running.

But, you know, the reality is, over the next almost year before, you know, because the Iowa caucuses is in January, she is going to have to give speeches and answer questions. So this is basically a warmup act for her. But at some point, we can see how scripted this event is. The people are waiting for her there. The rubber is going to meet the road here when she actually answers questions from some Democrats about why she's running for president. The video that she released over the weekend, you know, it was very a preplanned and programmed and was nice in many respects but it didn't answer the question of what she's going to do. So at some point those questions will have to be answered.

BALDWIN: And (INAUDIBLE) on that - and, Donna, I'm coming to you, but, Margaret, I really wanted to turn to you because some of the criticism has been, and when you see this video specifically, obviously it's more social, it's domestic issues. But, listen, when you look at her most recent job, she was, you know, U.S. secretary of state. Nothing on foreign policy as of yet. Are you wondering where that is?

MARGARET HOOVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I mean, she was secretary of state. She surely has plenty to say about foreign policy. But it was - it was a glaring omission. I mean she made a calculated decision to try to pull the heartstrings and not beef up on substance too early on. That is the direct dichotomy, the antithesis of what she did in her 2007 introductory video, which was riddled with issues and her major criticism of then-Senator Obama was that he didn't stand for anything. He was just this, you know, feel-good idea. So it's almost like she's the inverse this time and she's trying to reintroduce herself here in front of a car. Remember the candidate who said she's never - she hasn't driven for 17 years. I think it's great choreography for her right now.

BALDWIN: Ouch. Ouch. OK. So, you know, Margaret calls it choreography, Donna Brazile. But at the same time, it could be effective. You know, she's coming in, in this van. Much ado about this Chipotle stop. Here, you know, we've got the picture of her at Chipotle. Here's the van. She's stopped at some of these gas stations. She's stopping at diners. And really a lot has been made about these moments. I don't know how the campaign feels because yesterday, you know, the big story was it was the first week day that Hillary Clinton, the candidate, is out and about and headed to Iowa. Instead, everyone's talking about Chipotle. Good thing, bad thing, Donna?

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think this is a great way for her to start a campaign that is still about change. After all, that's what the majority of voters still would like to see, change.

There's no question that she has to perform good at the retail level. There are over 1,700 precincts that will be held, precinct caucuses that will be held next February. And what you have to do in a state like Iowa, the first state in the nation since 1972, is that you have to reach people where they live, where they play, where they study, and where they pray. And if you don't reach them, then on that cold wintry night in February when they have to stand in the precinct and declare their support, you know, they will - they will have the ability to say, you know what, I talked to Hillary Clinton. They won't be talking about I saw her at a big rally and when she was talking to reporter. They're going to say, I met her right there at my school, or in my living room or at the labor union hall. That's what they want. They want to feel the candidate. They want to talk to her. And that's why it's important that she's there today.

BALDWIN: Donna and Jeff and Brianna and Margaret, let me just ask all of you to stand by. I've got my eye keenly on this live shot. I don't see Hillary Clinton as of yet. Let's sneak a quick commercial break in. We'll be right back. Live picture from Monticello, Iowa, the first big campaign stop, Kirkwood Community College. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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