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Dr. Drew
Volunteer Deputy Shoots Dead Suspect; Husband Had Sex with Wife with Alzheimer`s; Ethical Issues on 65-Year-Old Pregnant with Quadruplets . Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 14, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, 65 and pregnant. A grandmother having not just a singlet, but quadruplets. Should she be having any babies at
her age?
And the husband who is accused of having sex with his wife going to jail because she couldn`t consent because she had Alzheimer`s disease. He may
get to tell his side of the story this week.
Let`s get started with the most tweeted story of the night. A volunteer deputy shoots and kills a fleeing suspect. He says claims he confused his
taser with a handgun. The incident starts with the victim selling a handgun to an undercover officer in a sting operation. We`ll start there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I got you. I got you. It`s just going to be a little bit (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFED MALE: You got another one?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I see it. Sweet. That`s a nice gun, man. (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Roll on your stomach. Now!
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I shot him. I`m sorry. (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Stop fighting! Stop fighting.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: He shot me.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Roll over (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Oh god, oh, he shot me. I didn`t do (INAUDIBLE). He shot me, man. I might die. I`m losing my breath.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) your breath. Put his hands back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The reserve officer in this case has been charged with second- degree manslaughter.
Joining us on the Anahita Sedaghattar, defense attorney; Spirit, psychotherapist; Crystal Wright, political commentator at GOP Black
Chick.com. Crystal, he says this was an accident. A, do you believe him and b, is that a sufficient defense?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, GOP BLACKCHICK.COM: I think two problems I have with this. Volunteer police officer from what I
understand. And second, I think if you`re a volunteer anything, you`re not going to be as trained specifically in law enforcement. And I think the
guy was trigger-happy, frankly.
And then what really troubles me, Dr. Drew, about that is you had this man who has already been shot. You have the cops standing over, according to
the video, saying "oh, my gosh, I`m so sorry, I shot him." Then we see other cops putting their knee on the back of Mr. Harris`, I think head when
he is saying "I`ve been shot, oh my god, I can`t breathe. It`s awful.
PINSKY: Yes, (INAUDIBLE) he can`t breathe. I mean, they need to be like preparing for resuscitation, right now.
WRIGHT: Right.
PINSKY: Now Anahita, his attorney, his defense attorney says this shooting was, "unexcusable homicide." Is that an actual term?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATTAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is. He is saying that although he shot and killed him, it`s defensible. It`s not a crime. And I totally
disagree, Dr. Drew. There is no reason why this 74-year-old reserve should have even been in such a high risk situation carrying a gun. That is a
recipe for disaster.
PINSKY: Spirit, I`ll bring you into this too. We have two of the three saying the 74-year-old volunteer officer, who by the way was a patron of
this particular organization that he was serving, he bought them things, made contributions and what not, do you think this guy should have been
there, and should he have been carrying a gun?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, I don`t think that he should have been there and I don`t think that he should have been carrying a gun as a
reserve officer. But I do, from what I understand, he does have some history as being an officer.
I think it`s just an unfortunate thing, and unfortunately, there is no accidental or excusable defense here. However, you know, this to me, Dr.
Drew, is like the equivalent of trying to lock up a doctor after they accidentally kill a patient.
PINSKY: They do it! They do that. You know you guys do that, the whole elder abuse sort of category.
SEDAGHATTAR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: They do this kind of thing all the time. There is a category where doctors don`t give enough pain medication. That`s why we have a pain
epidemic, pain abuse, medication abuse in this country, because they were locking up doctors for not giving enough pain medications to people who
were demanding it. You`re right. There is a certain insanity in some of these things. But this may not be so insane at all.
Crystal, now here is the problem. You can`t help but associate this particular case with so many of these sorts of things we`ve been seeing
these last few weeks. You can`t help it, right? I mean, is this, if this were -- you can`t help but sort of look, it`s a Caucasian policeman, again,
it`s an African-American victim. I mean, you can`t help but bring this all up. Was the fact that this was a black guy, made this old white man so
scared of the guy that was just running away that he had to pull his taser out, "oops, I`m too scared, I pulled out the gun?"
[21:05:00]
WRIGHT: No. Because Andre Harris, whose -- the victim`s brother said this isn`t about black or white, this is an example of a bad cop. Let`s not be
remiss in getting the facts out here real quickly. Eric Harris was on PCP. He was trying to sell an undercover cop an illegal weapon. And oh, yes, I
think he was arrested, Dr. Drew, for trying to sell meth, methamphetamine.
So he wasn`t an innocent. He did not -- I understand also the officer may have thought he was armed. But he was clearly fleeing the situation. What
this reminds me of is Eric Garner, I can`t breathe. This is a situation it`s not about color. It`s about a heinous act by I think a trigger-happy
cop. I don`t think -- he is a volunteer police officer. I don`t think his age had anything to do with it.
WRIGHT: Well, I wouldn`t want to be running around with a gun at 74. Anahita?
SEDAGHATTAR: I believe, Dr. Drew, that this was a mistake. I don`t think this was an intentional premeditated killing and that`s exactly --
PINSKY: I don`t think anyone has said that.
SEDAGHATTAR: But there has been some speculation that possibly this was racially motivated.
PINSKY: Well, that`s a bias, though, that`s a bias.
SEDAGHATTAR: Right.
PINSKY: That he was afraid of this man because of his color. And let me just say, Spirit, we know that this kind of bias has been documented.
SPIRIT: Of course, of course. But unlike Anahita said here, Dr. Drew, I don`t think that`s the case. I think the thing here is reservist. So he
doesn`t do this on a regular basis.
SEDAGHATTAR: Right.
SPIRIT: So he is out there in an adrenaline situation.
PINSKY: So who do we hold responsible? I don`t know. I feel like somebody, do we hold the organization responsible for putting a reservist
out there? Crystal? Crystal?
WRIGHT: Yes, I think we hold the Tulsa County Police Department responsible. I mean, when they were asked about this, they said "oh, we do
this all the time."
Yikes! You think I want to be driving around D.C., do you think I want to be driving around D.C., Los Angeles, New York with a bunch of like wanna-be
volunteer cops? I mean, to Spirit`s point, he is, you know, this gentleman, I forget his name, he only served in the police force in 1960,
for what, a year or less? I mean, come on.
PINSKY: Well, I want you guys to listen. I want you to listen what happened after this victim was shot. Take a listen here. Crystal, you
brought this up. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: He shot me!
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Get your hands behind you, do you hear me? Get your hands behind you.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Oh, god, oh, he shot me. I didn`t do (INAUDIBLE).
He shot me, man. I might die. I`m losing my breath.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) your breath. Put his hands back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Crystal, you also mentioned that he -- Harris told the paramedics that he was on PCP just as he was being loaded into the
ambulance. And that might explain why the excessive agitation and violence when they tried to restain him. So they kind of had to contain him in
order to give him medical care. I guess you can sort of excuse that on that basis.
WRIGHT: I agree with you. But the man was already lying face-down, and his breathing was compromised. And the other thing was, I felt like that
they were helping him to die. And law enforcement, like the same situation with Eric Garner, we all watched that in horror as that man died. He was
asthmatic, he was heavy. Nobody helped.
Look, your job as a law enforcement individual is to control the situation, apprehend the suspect. But not to help the suspect die, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m wondering if we have gotten too much, Spirit, into this good guy-bad guy mentality, when if somebody is sort of an object that
needs to be controlled by police, they`re no longer a member of the community they`re trying to serve and they`re strictly a bad guy to be
contained and/or eliminated.
SPIRIT: Well, you know, I think it runs deeper than that, too, Dr. Drew. Because what we`re expecting is for everybody to be an expert in every
field. These are officers. These are not members of the medical community. So what they`re training is and what their go-to is in a
situation like this is containment. Contain the bad guy.
PINSKY: Bad guy. But that bad guy thinking is what I`m sort of wondering. Have we gotten too much into that? And we`re going to talk --
SPIRIT: He had already committed the crime.
PINSKY: Well, he is not a good guy. I understand that. He is a criminal.
PINSKY: He ran from the cops. He was a bad guy.
PINSKY: He was a criminal. But to make them -- I don`t know. Something going on here the way we think about people that are involved in criminal
activities. Because once they`re -- there is no gray zone of evaluation. They`re bad and dangerous and must be contained to the point of threatening
or actually taking their life.
My question is did this guy, the 74-year-old -- what do we call him? What status did that gentleman have? The volunteer. Did he buy his way on to
this force with generous donations?
And later, a 65-year-old woman pregnant. She has 10 other children. And now she is having quadruplets. Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) with "The Daily Share" at this hour.
[21:10:00]
For many frustrated airline passengers, no official report on poor customer service is really necessary. But the annual airline quality report is out.
And it shows customer satisfaction at an all-time low. Frontier received the most complaints. And Alaska Airlines the fewest.
And one air traveler got the surprise of a lifetime. A baggage handler for Alaska Airlines, he fell asleep in the cargo hold, then woke up mid flight
and went crazy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: He thought there was something wrong with the landing gear, something going back and forth.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: He just kept banging and he kept banging.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: There is a person in there. So we`re going to head back around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After 14 minutes, the pilot made an emergency landing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM CLARK, TULSA CITY POLICE SERGEATN: You can train someone as much as you can, and you train in every area that you can. But in times of crisis,
sometimes training is not going to take you through the scenario.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Roll on your stomach. Now!
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: There is no way an officer can get this confused with this.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I feel that they`re unwarranted. It shouldn`t have been brought.
DANIEL SMOLERS, HARRIS FAMILY ATTORNEY: You have a wealthy businessman who has been essentially deputized to go play like he is some outlaw.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Spirit and Crystal. We`re talking about the reserve deputy who killed a man after allegedly confusing taser and
handgun, and then shooting this poor guy. He has been generous in the past to the sheriff`s office.
Here is what he has donated. Multiple vehicles, computer and forensic cameras, guns, $2,500 to reelect the sheriff. Anahita, is that a feature
of why this guy ended up in a sting operation, because he bought his way on to the force?
[21:15:07]
SEDAGHATTAR: It could be, Dr. Drew. But that`s not really relevant to me. Because I think we all know that he should not have been there. OK, now I
know the victim`s family is saying that he didn`t have the right amount of training. The department is saying "no, no, no, no, he had just the right
amount of training to be there."
But ultimately, no. You do not put someone like this, a reserve officer at his age with a weapon in a high risk situation. Put them doing crowd
control. Take them for ride-alongs. But I think frankly, Dr. Drew, this was negligence not only by the police officer himself, but by the
department as well.
PINSKY: Crystal?
WRIGHT: I absolutely agree with Anahita. And the gentleman who is speaking, I don`t know, Dr. Drew, if that was the sheriff of the Tulsa
County Police Department or what, but he said "oh, you know, even well- trained police officers don`t know how they`re going to react under stress.
Bingo. This guy was not a well-trained police officer. He had been on maybe 100 operations, which were basically search warrants. Not a high-
stress undercover situation dealing with somebody that is, you know, on drugs, that they knew about, they had been casing this guy. And the guy
was armed with weapons because he is trying to sell them to an undercover cop.
I think the negligence falls on the police department. And it does look and appear as though this man was buying his way on to -- I guess he
thought it was, let me play it being a police officer is what it looks like. And sadly --
PINSKY: Frankly, I agree with you. It sounds good what you`re both saying, but I don`t know enough about law enforcement to really take an
opinion. So I have asked one of our go-tos, Sheriff Richard Jones from Butler County, Ohio.
Sheriff, it is believable first of all to mistake a taser for a gun?
SHERIFF RICHARD JONES, BUTLER COUNTY, OHIO: Sure it is.
PINSKY: OK.
JONES: Basically, people are trained in tasers. Sometimes they get -- it depends where you`re at. Usually it`s eight hours certification. You`re
trained with a taser.
PINSKY: Sheriff, should this guy have been there? Should this guy or does Anahita and Crystal have a point, are they right, or should this guy -- is
it OK for this guy to have been involved in a sting operation. It`s not on the front line, but not far from it?
JONES: No, I don`t know that he was on the front lines. He was there. The sheriff said he had -- he has done over 100 of these. I know the
sheriff personally. And he wouldn`t do anything that he didn`t think this person was trained. But I will tell you this. Remember this, doctor, the
tasers sometimes they`re bright yellow there is a reason for that.
And most of the time, not all the time, they`re on the opposite side of your weapon. There is a scenario called slip and capture. And what
happens is when you`re in a heated confrontation, it doesn`t matter if you`re 25 years old. You reach for your weapon and you may be reaching for
your taser, but you get your handgun, or it can be the opposite.
This isn`t the first time that someone has been shot with a handgun and thought they were just getting a taser. You understand that. This isn`t
the first time.
PINSKY: Isn`t this the basis of the very famous circumstance at Fruitvale Station that became a movie about this very issue. I don`t know if my
panel saw that film. I did. This is spookily like that, and equally as tragic, frankly. Although that was especially tragic. That was a kid
caught in just the wrong place at the wrong time. But sheriff, that`s what you`re talking about, right?
JONES: Yes. But that`s just the one that`s on video. There is other instances. And also, Dr. Drew, realize that when trained police officers
pull their tasers out, they tase each other. And they`ve trained for this. They pull their handguns out and friendly fire. They get shot with
friendly fire, shooting at bad guys.
Was this a good shoot? No, it was not. And the guy admitted it when he yelled taser, taser. The reason police do that is so the other policemen
that are on the scene will get back because they`ll get hit with the taser. He shoots the guy. This is a 357 magnum, which is short barrel gun. When
you shoot it, they train policemen to shoot twice, bam bam, bam bam. That way you stay on target. He shot him once.
It jumped out of his hand. He has realized that he thought he had the taser. Is it a good shoot? No. Should the guy be there? That will be up
to the court, because this is going to last quite some time. And the gentleman was shot, and he is now deceased and looks as though they got
plenty of film to view this. And everybody is going to second guess it. Not a good shoot. And I think everybody in America knows that.
PINSKY: Thank you, sheriff. I appreciate you helping us understand this. It`s also been reported that Mr. Harris himself said he was on PCP, which
could explain some of the struggling on the ground. Take a look at this, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARKMALE: Mr. Harris was under the influence of PCP.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I`m sorry, do you have the toxicology report?
CLARK: Nope. We have his admission to two medic. They asked him what he had taken, and he said he had used PCP before this event took place.
[21:20:00]
SMOLEN: Publicly, in front of the world apologize for going on national and worldwide television and telling them that they heard Eric Harris yell
out "I`m on PCP."
This just horrible situation is going to be about what a corrupt sheriff`s office does after a bad shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anahita, is that fair, to call the sheriff`s office corrupt?
SEDAGHATTAR: I don`t think we have enough evidence to make that claim yet, Dr. Drew. We don`t know all the facts. But I can tell you that what makes
this the most egregious part of this, I should say is the fact that this officer drew his weapon at the time that this guy was already subdued.
He was on the floor. He was being held down by the other officers. So I agree with what Crystal said. That obviously it`s never good to run away
from the police. You should not resist arrest, because then you are risking your life.
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATTAR: But I don`t think he was risking being shot accidentally by an officer who thought he was tasing him.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m certain this guy was no angel. I`m certain it was scary to be around him when he was being subdued. But this is getting troubling.
There is something going on here. And I`m beginning to think that it`s the -- the black and white. And I don`t mean black and white in sense of race.
I think black and white in terms of good guy and bad guy is becoming so ingrained in people`s thinking and law enforcement that the people they`re
charged to serve are feeling as though they`re under assault or being victimized.
I don`t know. It feels like there needs to be a little philosophical change. I don`t know how to do it. I`m not an expert in law enforcement.
But we`re watching this time and again on television. And race plays a role. Let`s not pretend it doesn`t. But it seems like a bigger issue
here. Maybe it will evolve as time goes on what we need to do here. It`s not clear to me yet.
Next up, this is also an egregious situation. I`ve got a husband on trial for sexual assault because his wife had a commenting illness. She had
Alzheimer`s. And the family and the legal system is looking at him as a rapist because she was demented, she couldn`t render consent. Could she
consent for sex? Could she consent to decide what kind of food she wants to eat? This is a complicated situation. We`re going to get into it.
And later on, a grandmother with already 13 children is about to have quadruplets. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:36:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was by all accounts happily married to her second husband, a local politician and farmer. But now 78-year-old Donna Rayhons,
who suffered from dementia and later died is considered a rape victim, at least by prosecutors. Henry Rayhons is on trial for third-degree sexual
abuse for allegedly having sex with his wife in her nursing home without her consent. If convicted, he could get up to 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I think that he should go spend 10 years in jail? Probably not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I think he should go away for 10 years? I think that`s crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I do too. And we`re back with Anahita, Spirit and Crystal. And a segment we call "Seriously." Would you, if you were on that jury send that
poor gentleman, Henry RAyhons, to prison because he loved his wife? The prosecutions has had several nursing home staffers testify as to his wife`s
mental capacity. Have a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was just in her pleasant little world, her own little world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was holding a sandwich like this, and looking down and just shaking her head. What do I do? You know, not saying that,
but looking blankly at the food.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Her behavior was declining at that time. There was more evidence of confusion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, she has Alzheimer`s. There is no debate about that. She has dementia. But Anahita, which side in this case has the stronger position?
SEDAGHATTAR: I think the defense clearly has a stronger side, Dr. Drew. I cannot imagine any jury convicting this man. It makes me sad and actually
very angry that the D.A. is actually charging him criminally for having sex with his own wife, even if she had dementia.
Because Dr. Drew, and I`m sure you can explain this to us, the expert say that people with dementia they can fluctuate from being very lucid in one
moment to incoherent.
PINSKY: They can fluctuate. She`s severely impaired. Let`s no mistake about it. But the question becomes so much what is done is to help
Alzheimer`s patients and dementia patients is to maintain their quality of life.
We need to come up with a set of procedures so physicians and health care providers can make decisions. I know Crystal, you had a very personal
feeling with. You have very strong feelings about it. Don`t you at least agree this is going to be an increasing severe problem for more people as
this population ages. All of us on the panel could end up like the woman in this case. What would you want? How would you want to be protected? I
would want to be protected so I could maintain closeness with my spouse.
WRIGHT: I absolutely would want to be protected. And you`re right. Many of us are going to experience dementia. But Dr. Drew, what bothers me
about it is the way you opened up the segment, you were like "oh, she has Alzheimer`s." Like, duh. So what?
She has Alzheimer`s, she should be taken advantage of? Here are two things that strike me that I`m revisiting my initial comments about whether or not
he should spend 10 years in prison. I think that Henry was raping his wife. And I`ll tell you why. When she was first admitted, they did an
evaluation, and the doctor said she was -- she had no ability to consent to sex.
PINSKY: Well, hang on. I`m going to stop you there --
WRIGHT: Wait.
PINSKY: I`m going to stop you because the doctors also said he has never been in a position to make such a statement and has no training nor
criteria upon which to even begin to make an assessment like that.
WRIGHT: I`m talking about --
PINSKY: That`s his doctor.
WRIGHT: I`m talking about Dr. Brady.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: Dr. Brady who evaluated her when she came into the nursing home. This is what I read. Now maybe you and I are reading different things. He
evaluated her. He had a meeting with her daughters and the nursing home staff. And he was asked if she -- when she was admitted if she could
consent to sexual activity. He said no.
PINKSY: Crystal and he said I had never been in a position where anyone has ever asked me that question before.
WRIGHT: Exactly.
PINSKY: Ever. Never.
Now we have to get in a situation where -- I need criteria when I assess a patient like that. I don`t have one.
[21:30:00]
WRIGHT: OK. Let me give you the second thing. Then the second thing that strikes me is that the nursing home caregiver said in the 18 years that she
has been doing this, she has never seen a situation where a man was so insistent upon continuing sexual activity, and the doctor said she scored
zero on being able to say this is a sock, this is a basic things. So what bothers me --
PINSKY: Right. Severe dementia.
WRIGHT: Yes, you seem to think -- she couldn`t consent. You seem to think sex, the intercourse act is about intimacy. And that really offends me and
bothers me. My grandmother wanted to be talked to. My grandmother wanted to be held.
PINSKY: Sure.
WRIGHT: My grandmother wanted for my mom and I to hold her hand. This guy I think is sick. You know what? You can have a lot of intimacy with your
wife. You can lie down with her in bed. You can kiss her. If he wanted to have sex, he should have paid a prostitute. He is disgusting.
PINSKY: All right. I hear you. Spirit, you`ve been listening carefully. Go ahead.
SPIRIT: Such strong opinions that she raises.
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: Are we forgetting that this was his wife, the woman that he had sex with all of this time. And so, Dr. Drew, I`m like you. When you talk
about criteria for determining whether or not someone is able to have sex - -
PINSKY: Listen, one of the criteria might be we give directive to physicians, we memorialize it in paperwork. We say listen, "I want to be
able to choose what I eat. Please give me three choices."
SPIRIT: Directives.
PINSKY: Yes, directives.
WRIGHT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Please let me maintain a relationship with -- this is stuff we all got to think about because we are all going to live well into our 80s and
nines in all probability.
WRIGHT: Clearly.
PINSKY: And many of us may have cognitive declines because it`s exceedingly common. It`s very painful for everybody involved when this
happens.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Spirit. One at a time. Spirit? Go.
SPIRIT: People do not realize that sex is still very important even in our later parts of our lives. If you look especially in nursing homes, Dr.
Drew, it`s no miracle here that when you look at the geriatric population, they have the second highest STD rates next to the youngest generation.
They are having sex. We need to be real about this.
PINSKY: We need to be able to develop healthy criteria for this.
SPIRIT: I`m all for that.
PINSKY: But how?
SEDAGHATTAR: Dr. Drew, how do we do that? If we ever want to use the slippery slope argument, your favorite argument, Dr. Drew, this is the case
to have it. Because then who makes that determination?
PINSKY: I know.
SEDAGHATTAR: How can any doctor make it? And then, what`s next?
PINSKY: I know. I wouldn`t want to be in that position.
SEDAGHATTAR: Are we going to say oh, if a husband wants to kiss his wife who has dementia, he can be criminally charged?
PINSKY: Listen, the worst thing in the world for me as a physician would be to make a decision oh, this poor couple, I knew them for years, they
loved each other, they want to maintain and have Crystal be the daughter come at me that way, I would be mortified. And by the way, I wouldn`t
blame Crystal. I would not blame Crystal. I would just be mortified. Go ahead.
WRIGHT: Real quick. I know I`m all for sex. I like to have sex. I think older people should have sex. If they`re consensual. But what about in a
marriage when a wife is being abused and she is raped? So it`s not --
PINSKY: You`re not listening. Crystal.
WRIGHT: Married people have sex. Married people are raped too.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Listen, Crystal, hang on, stop, stop. We got a delay here. Stop, everybody. Hang on.
Crystal`s points are valid. They`re not invalid. I don`t want to think for any second that listen, this is why this is such a struggle. People
like Crystal have very -- Crystal herself has a valid point, and she has been through this with families.
So there is a lot of emotion attached to it. I get that. Spirit, you and I have taken care of people with these conditions. And so we`re a little
more, maybe pragmatic about it, but we also feel a little loss too because we weren`t trained with specific criteria the way we were in so many other
areas of our practice. And this needs to evolve.
SPIRIT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: After the break, I tell you what? I`m going to discuss this with somebody who has these criteria in a very well thought of facility for the
elder patient.
And later, we`re going to get to the 65-year-old woman pregnant with quadruplets. Is that right or wrong or is that none of our business? Is
that another thing we have to get involved with or stay out of? I`ve got some ideas. I`m sure the panel will too. We`ll be back after this.
[21:34:19]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Doctor, have you ever been asked to make this determination, given someone`s cognitive state, can they consent? Have you
ever been asked to do that before?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Never.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is a complicated issue, but it`s something we surely better come to terms with because cognitive impairments are going to be extremely
common probably amongst all of us on this panel within 20 to 30 years, amongst tens of millions of us in America.
Back with Anahita, Spirit and Crystal. We`re discussing a 78-year-old man facing 10 years in prison, if he`s convicted of having sex, unconsentually,
with his wife because she has dementia.
Spirit, did you hear the doctor on the stand saying he had never been asked to make this evaluation ever before?
SPIRIT: Absolutely. And I had never had that question. I`ve worked with many individuals with both Parkinson`s and Alzheimer`s, Dr. Drew. I`ve
never had their family or their partner say can they consent to having sex. But can I just say for the record right now, since I don`t have directives
yet, 50 or 60 years from now if I`m still able physically, I want to have sex. Can I put mine in now.
PINSKY: Spirit, a dementia patient is tweeting right now "I have early onset dementia, if I can`t consent in years to come, don`t assume with my
illness I don`t want to." That`s right and that`s the hard part about this illness. There are remnant experiences that may not be cognitively
motivated or even experienced cognitively that can be part of the quality of life.
I want to go to an expert in this. I`ve got Daniel Reingold. He`s joining us now. He`s the president and CEO of Hebrew Home at Riverdale in New York
City.
21:40:00
Now, Daniel, you created a sexual rights policy for your facility. Tell us about that. We`re looking for criteria. We`re looking for direction.
DANIEL REINGOLD, HEBREW HOME CEO: Yes, thank you for having me on. We did create a criteria to determine if people`s ability to engage in sexual
activity. And the philosophy encourages intimacy and encourages the ability to touch. Because it`s one of the last pleasures in life that we
give up.
And our criteria is very straight forward. And it recognizes that people, there is a long definition and continuum of capacity. And people maintain
much more capacity than may be let on by legal proceedings or even medical proceedings. We ask people with dementia to make decisions every day. And
they may be very oriented into the moment, even if they don`t remember what they had for breakfast that day. And that includes the ability to consent.
PINSKY: And let me ask you. I get what you`re saying. I get it, and I`m delighted that patients continue to enjoy these experiences, even though
they may not remember having had them. And may not be able to render consent.
I mean, this state, if you have two glasses of wine, you can`t render consent to sex because you`re intoxicated. And that`s considered unable to
render a consent. How do you get around all these issues that sometimes people might object to and can be very emotional and heated, particularly
for family members?
REINGOLD: We discuss it with our family members, and we try to really emphasize the point that mom or dad is engaging in something that is
bringing them pleasure. And why would a family member want to deny the opportunity for a family member to do something that is pleasurable,
especially while living in a long-term care facility where we give up so much. And there is so much loss already in our lives. And a lot of loss
of independence.
And so it`s very important that we take a very strong view that encourages decision making or the ability to engage in pleasurable activities. I
think that`s something that is really incumbent on providers of long-term care services.
PINSKY: Now Crystal, you obviously have very -- Mr. Reingold, I did not pluck him because he had an opinion that I thought was necessarily
consistent with my own. But me makes sense to me. Now, I know you have strong feelings. I`m going to give you a chance to ask him other
questions.
WRIGHT: I absolutely agree with everything that he said. And I like the fact, Dr. Reingold, that you do this assessment, it seems like every day,
moment to moment. Is that correct?
PINSKY: And I guess a corollary to that that we have all these delays going on with everyone in different parts of the country and the world
right now. The question I would think you would ask, though, Crystal, is if someone has very, very, very impaired ability to consent and the husband
is still pressuring and there is no -- how do you set the criteria then?
WRIGHT: Sorry. Dr. Reingold, how do you assess if somebody`s cognitive ability is just to zero. I`m sorry. I got his name wrong. What do you
call, what do you guys do for the patient then? Regarding sexual activity?
REINGOLD: Patient -- residents whose capacity is diminished, and again, there is a very wide range of diminution of capacity. But we will assess
their ability in some decision making by non-verbal cues, by their ability to react, if there is agitation. And it`s clearly something that is
evidencing a negative desire, we will intervene.
And let me just express a corollary to our policy that as much as the philosophy is designed to encourage intimacy, to respect the moment to
moment alertness of an individual, we`re also very keen on preventing unwanted touching, protecting the rights of dementia person who may not
want to be touched, and being sure that that does not occur if in fact our staff determines that that`s a negative outcome.
PINSKY: Thank you so much, Mr. Reingold. Spirit, I`m going get your last thought.
SPIRIT: Yes, the bottom line here, as you hear, Dr. Drew, that this needs to be left in the hands of the clinicians. This is why it`s so important
for the families to have a solid relationship and a trusting relationship with those they entrust their loved ones too.
PINSKY: And we`ve all got to keep working on this. Listen, somebody is on twitter who is calling me a rape apologist. That is not my point at all.
I`ve dealt with elderly patients for 30 years. And I have some sense of how we should set up these criteria.
And I will admit, this particular case is little bit challenging. It`s challenging. He seemed to push things a little bit. She seemed to be
profoundly impaired. There may be trouble, even as Anahita said, it`s more to be -- there is more substance to the case on the defense side.
[21:45:02]
You want don`t want to put a 70-year-old man to jail for 10 years the latter years of his life. I don`t know. We need to do a much, much better
job with this and have a much better standard throughout the country on this, or at least state by state to help us understand how to manage the
situation and prevent things like this from happening.
Next up, we`re going to discuss a woman who is pregnant with quadruplets at age 65. A reminder, we are on Instagram. Check our behind the scenes
photos. We post new ones every day. And of course, on our Facebook page, you can meet us there for the after show. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Imagine being pregnant at 65. And not with one child, but four.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You never know. You can be 20 or 40 and something might happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Annegret Raunigk is already a mother to 13 children and a grandmother to seven. But she wanted more.
21:50:00
ANNEGRET RAUNIGK (through translator): I find life with children great. You constantly have to live up to new challenges. And that probably also
keeps you young.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Annegret Raunigk used IVF with donated eggs that were fertilized.
RAUNIGK (through translator): I think things will continue to go well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Spirit, crystal, and WTF. A story dominating the conversation on Twitter and Facebook. It is a 65-year-old
mother/grandmother, pregnant with quadruplets. And she says her statement is -- I heard two statements.
One, if science makes it possible, you should be able to do it. And Crystal, the other thing was, well, anything could happen when you`re 20 or
30. Yes, it can happen, just as even more likely then. But my god, it is fantastically different from the standpoint of what happens in your body
and your availability both to raise babies and when they`re 15, you`re going to be 78? Come on, now.
WRIGHT: What`s so funny, Dr. Drew is you could have a baby. You could have quadruplets. I mean, I think you have triplets.
PINSKY: I do, I do. And let me tell you.
WRIGHT: You had them when you were a lot younger.
PINSKY: When I was 30. Turned my hair gray in the first 18 months. I kid you not. I`m not kidding.
WRIGHT: But here is the thing, Dr. Drew. You can have babies. You can get a woman pregnant up until the day you die and our society wouldn`t even
blink an eye if somebody said you know, Dr. Drew is 65. He`s going -- he`s having quadruplets. It would be like OK. It`s perfectly acceptable, even
though you`re probably going to die before your kids are 20, right, for you to do it. I think if this woman isn`t asking taxpayers or me to pay for
her babies, she is going to raise them, have them.
PINSKY: All right. Well.
WRIGHT: Quadruplets --
PINSKY: I would say the doctors that allowed this to happen need to be sort of examined. Because they`re putting this woman`s life in jeopardy as
well as these four children. Be you bring up an interesting point. No, no, no, put that Billy Joel comment back up there.
I want to follow on what Crystal just said. I`m going to pose it to Spirit. Because on Twitter today, Billy Joel, who is 65 is expecting a
baby with his girlfriend, Alexis, who is 33. And just to complicate things further, Spirit, he has a daughter, Alexa, who is 29, four years the junior
of Alexis, and poor Alexa has been struggling with depression. Come on, now, I want to call these guys out. It`s hubris, in my opinion. What,
you`re going to have a baby with this woman? You`re going to live forever, sir? Is that what you think? No, you`re not.
SPIRIT: Come on. And I hear exactly what, you know, what your other guest said.
PINSKY: Crystal.
SPIRIT: I apologize. Crystal. My mind is just blown. Because even as a woman and you know, Dr. Drew, your audience knows, I have five children. I
even contemplate maybe having another one. But not at 65. I think the word here is just irresponsible.
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: You don`t have the energy for it.
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: You`re not going to be around for the bulk of your life.
PINSKY: Yes. If you survive the pregnancy in this case.
SPIRIT: Yes! What are you doing here?
PINSKY: This is four circulatory systems --
SPIRIT: Enjoy being a grandmother.
PINSKY: All right. We got more to say. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:47:24]
PINSKY: All right. Back with Anahita, Spirit and Crystal. We are talking about the 65-year-old mother/grandmother pregnant now with quadruplets.
I`m not saying that anything should happen now that she is pregnant. She should have these children. But I mean the ethics of the physician who
allowed her to do this, she lives in Germany. She actually had to go to the Ukraine because there is no laws or ethical standards governing these
sorts of procedures, the IVF procedure.
And Anahita, I see you nodding there. There should be standards followed to prevent catastrophes. This may not turn out well.
SEDAGHATTAR: I agree with you on that, Dr. Drew. And you know, obviously there is something off with her as well. She already has 13 kids, I think
with five different men.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
SEDAGHATTAR: And now this. And what really gets me, because normally I would say you know what? It`s her body. Let her do whatever she wants
with it as long as she is not harming anyone. But she is going all over the media with this. She is giving interviews. She is going on TV. She
wants to do a documentary.
PINSKY: Oh, Anahita, Anahita, she is claiming, when people ask her how she is going to support these kids, here it, with my media coverage and
sponsorship deals. That`s her plan.
SEDAGHATTAR: She want herself 10 minutes of fame.
PINSKY: She should call octomom and ask her how that is working out for her.
SEDAGHATTAR: Not very well. She is on welfare the last I heard, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: That`s incredible. Spirit, one second. I`ve got a Facebook post. "It`s not the kids she wants, she`s just in love with the feeling of being
pregnant." A lot of the social media conversation was about that. Is if there a thing of being sort of addicted to being in that pregnant state?
Some women find it terribly gratifying.
SPIRIT: Yes, well, she is not advancing through the developmental stages, Dr. Drew. She is not giving herself the opportunities to enjoy that, be
the grandparent, the great grandparent.
PINSKY: Right. She is staying the mother of babies all these years and the pregnant woman. Some of that I think is not being realistic about the
fact that we age and we die. That`s what happens as a biological base.
SPIRIT: They`re not even her eggs. They`re not even her eggs, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Crystal, last thoughts. I`m going to give you the final say so here.
WRIGHT: Look, I don`t think she should be having kids at age 65. I agree with you on that. She is addicted to being pregnant. But look, you have
the Duggars, where that woman has 20 kids. You have Octomom. It`s not right there. There should be ethical standards. I was making a broader
point, if it`s OK for men to have babies, father babies at age 80.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, I hear your point. But I would, by the way, assail the males on the same basis with the same standard as I would the women.
Because, listen, men, as they age, their sperm is not as good as it was when they were younger.
Thank you, panel. DVR us, and you can watch us any time.
Next up, test your trivia knowledge with something we call "Key Words." It`s hosted by Summer Sanders, and it begins now.
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