Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Suspect Deliberately Hit with Police Car; Extraordinary Women: Ashley Judd; Dr. Sanjay Gupta's Investigation Into Medical Marijuana. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 15, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:31:26] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Carol Costello.

The dash cam video I'm about to show you is disturbing, but as you watch it, keep this in mind, the suspect who was deliberately hit with a police officer's car was allegedly on a crime spree.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (voice-over): Police say this man robbed a 7-Eleven, and set fire to a church, entered a home and stole a car, drove to Walmart, stole a rifle and fired it as he walked down the street.

Now, here's what happened when police tried to stop him. An officer used his patrol car to take him down, running into the man before slamming into a concrete wall. The police chief defended his officer's actions on "NEW DAY."

CHIEF TERRY ROZEMA, MARANA, ARIZONA POLICE: The fact of the matter remains the officer had a very difficult, tough, tough decision to make and he made that tough decision. And if he doesn't make that decision, we don't know that if he lets him go for another ten seconds he doesn't take somebody out in the parking lot, and then we're answering some completely different questions, why didn't you act sooner?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (on camera): The suspect did survive, Som Lisaius, from our affiliate KOLD has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOM LISAIUS, REPORTER, KOLD: If a picture is worth 1,000 words, there's no telling how many words came to the mind of Marana police chief, Terry Rozema the first time he saw this video.

ROZEMA: It's one of those things where the first time I saw the video, I went, whoa, you know, holy crap, I think were the exact words out of my mouth.

LISAIUS: An armed suspect who had just stolen a rifle and a box of ammunition from a local Walmart now roaming the streets of Marana and not listening to the commands of responding police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't want to do this. You don't want to do this.

LISAIUS: What's worse is officers try to talk the suspect down, a man and his child pull up to police telling them the suspect poses no threat because the gun he just stole has a trigger lock on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's got -- it's locked, he can't get the lock off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sure?

LISAIUS: Seconds later we learn that's not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, never mind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One round just went out.

LISAIUS: As the suspect then swings the gun directly toward the patrol car. Good news is, surrounding businesses are locked down thanks to officers and 911 personnel who get the word out immediately.

ROZEMA: What happens if this guy gets past us and gets into the sergeant control, or runs into the Coca-Cola. We're looking at a potential and an absolute hostage situation, and potentially something even worse.

LISAIUS: That never happens thanks to the actions of Officer Michael Rapiejko, a first-year Marana cop with nearly ten years of professional experience before that, both with Tucson police and NYPD.

ROZEMA: That's not an easy decision right there. That's a tough, tough, tough decision, but he made it and, you know, when we -- when the dust settles and everything clears, everybody in sergeant control, everybody in Coca-Cola, all of our officers are safe, and this guy walks away out of the hospital two days later and is booked in the jail to be held accountable for his crimes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: All right, again, the suspect did survive, but now his lawyer is accusing officers of using excessive force. So, did the officer go too far?

I'm joined by CNN legal analysts Joey Jackson and Danny Cevallos. Thanks to both of you for being here.

JOEY JACKONS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

So, Joey, this guy fired off a shot in the street, we saw him. Short of getting into a gun battle with this man, was there any way else to stop him? JACKSON: I have to tell you that in this instance, I think the police

officer is protected by the law, exercised judgment and discretion in a split second, and I think the law will protect him in this instance.

[09:35:05] Now, it may sound surprising, but you have to look at the underlying circumstances. And, Carol, you laid them out. What did he do before that? Robbery of a convenience store, then after robbing a convenience store then goes and sets a fire to a church, he engages in a home invasion, he steals a car, he then goes and gets ammunition in addition to a rifle from that Walmart. The lock, of course, was taken off, because we saw him fire a shot.

And then, of course, you can have a further dangerous situation down the line in the event that he gets into a business district where there are other people that are populated. Then what are we talking about? How there was a hostage situation, so many people were killed. And so, if you look at that and you look at the law, Supreme Court of the United States, 30 years ago, 1985, Gardner versus Tennessee, right? What did they say in that case?

They said in the event that somebody is fleeing and you need to use force to take them down, if it's lethal force, they have to pose a threat to the officer of death, or others, or of serious bodily injury. I think under that standard they certainly meet it, and under the next case, 1988 case.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, there are two more Supreme Court cases that are very instructive on exactly this issue, and one is from about eight years ago where the Supreme Court held that police could ram a suspect's vehicle to end a high-speed chase if there is a threat to the safety of innocent bystanders.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

CEVALLOS (voice-over): So, what we would have to extrapolate is, if you can ram a car if needed, can you ram a human being? And then more recently, last year, the Supreme Court held that in a similar car chase situation, police fired some 15 shots at a fleeing suspect, and that was ruled within the Constitution. So, based on some recent --

COSTELLO (voice-over): Can I stop you? Please don't show this anymore, this video. Please don't show this.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COSTELLO (on camera): I don't need to see that any -- we don't need to see it anymore. I'm sorry, I interrupted, but go on.

CEVALLOS: That's okay, that's okay. So, these are the cases, that Joey mentioned and that I mentioned, that any review in court will take a look at. And it seems pretty clear that given the expansion on the authority to use deadly force to stop a fleeing, dangerous suspect, that this ram, while unconventional, is probably legal.

COSTELLO: You know, and this came to mind, you know, once we decided to air the story and talk about it, Joey, that every time we get a hold of this kind of dash cam video it will be parsed out like this in a way it was never parsed before.

JACKSON: It's so true, Carol, and I think there'll even be more of that because police forces are using now not only dash cams, but the body cam is something that's becoming more prevalent, so we're going to do that. And we have the benefit, obviously, of sitting here and analyzing it, and rerun it, and show it again, and the reality is that they're making split-second decisions, and so, when someone's armed and running away, someone's unarmed and running away, different story. But when someone poses a threat to so many other people and things could be so much worse, an instance like this, legally protected.

COSTELLO: And then just a tougher question, because I'm sure that most people out there would say it's good that this video was available to us, but does it call officers to second-guess themselves too much, might it have that affect in the future, Danny?

CEVALLOS: Well, the Supreme Court has said that an officer's decision will not be scrutinized with the benefit of hindsight and all the facts know. A court, where or not there are video cameras or not, a court will look at what facts were available to the officer at that time.

And, you know, you talk about videos on dash cams and on officers' persons, and don't forget the citizen video and the fact that we all have recording equipment now just on our phones that we can take tape with, so it's really rendering a new era. Will it effect globally the way officers think, and feel, and make split-second decisions? Maybe, but many observers have said that would be for the better.

COSTELLO: Danny Cevallos, Joey Jackson, thanks as always. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, one-on-one with Ashley Judd. The actress turned women's champion opens up to me about her fight against online harassment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:33]

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): I was a member of underwater demolition team 12 and part of the Apollo 16 recovery team. A man module popped up, I jumped out, we put the location collar (ph) around the command module, stood up on it, got the door open. The astronaut looks out, it was phenomenal, one of my defining moments as a team guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (on camera): My name is Larry, I'm a retired Navy SEAL, and now I run a snow cap in Vail, Colorado.

What it means to be a Navy SEAL is six months of the most arduous military training in the world. We started with 108 in our class, 24 graduated. I was a Navy SEAL for 37 years, and I spent 20 years on active duty and 17 in the reserves. I had reached the mandatory retirement age of 60. I would say plan early for retirement, don't wait until it's too late. Have an idea of what your projected income when you do decide to retire, what your Social Security is going to be, and come with a lump sum and see if you can afford to do what I do.

I was actually spring skiing in Vail in 2007 and watching the caps (ph) coming down one night, and I thought, that looks like something I might want to do. I spoke to the grooming supervisor, he said he might be looking for a little maturity to work the Game Creek Club (ph), which is a private members club, and next think I knew I had a job offer and moved to Vail for the season in 2007, 2008.

What I enjoy most about the snow cap driving is the ride up in the morning watching the sun come up over the Rockies. It's just spectacular. I also like the challenge of driving a snow cap (ph). It takes a certain amount of sensitivity, I got two hydraulics, and snow consistency, certain amount adversity that I like when it's adverse weather conditions. Kind of have to make it happen.

I have tried picking my feet up, and it gets old after a while.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: A big shout-out to "New York Moves" magazine, it's an awesome publication that cares deeply about women and equality.

Last night I was honored to moderate a panel of extraordinary women who shared their thoughts about how to achieve equality for women. The most honored guest, Ashley Judd. I got to talk with her about the war she's waging to fight back against vicious Twitter trolls.

Judd, a diehard Kentucky fan, tweeted during March Madness about her team's rivals, saying they were, quote, "playing dirty". Well the online trolls attacked, calling Judd a whore, a bitch, they even lashed out with the C word.

[09:45:00] Judd decided enough was enough and she's now moving to press charges against those people who made those comments. She's also become quite the champion for women.

So before last night's event, Ashley Judd and I spoke candidly about her fight and the importance of protecting female voices.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: You have become such a role model and that must make you feel great.

ASHLEY JUDD, ACTRESS: I really don't know how to answer that question. You know, I had role models when I was growing up in particularly times when I felt a little vulnerable or adrift and I know that sometimes it was a relationship where there was an investment and a lot of time, and sometimes it was a passing bird, but they made a difference in my life, and if God uses me in some small way for other girls and women then all I can say is I humbly I hope I keep doing the work that I need to do on myself in order to have something to transmit.

COSTELLO: I think the latest thing that you've done about Twitter trolls has really resonated, especially with young women who fight that kind of stuff all the time. Have you had any success in prosecuting any of these people?

JUDD: There's an excellent piece right now on my dotcom within my published -- my op-ed -- "Forget Your Team, It's Your Online Gender Violence That Can Kiss My Ass," and I really suggest people take a look at it. It was written by a woman named Julie Zeilinger and it goes into the details about the challenges in prosecuting because No. 1, it's not a capturable, reifiable (ph) space, the internet. No. 2, even when the threats are explicit, and sometimes photographs are used and images are sent like, this is what I'm going to do to you, they are dismissed as not creditable. Three, there literally have been police departments to whom internet threats have been taken who say, what is Twitter? And there isn't for - at this time, a sufficient kind of legislation that can have a charge that (INAUDIBLE) much less, a consequence and prosecution. I am actually going to be starting something new with the Women's Media Center, which is about online violence and media and policy and we are going to tackle it, because, you know, the good news is, I think our world is growing and healing in many ways, and in all the new spaces that evolve there will continue to be all different kinds of forms and expressions of violence, and we will not just keep up, we're going to eventually conquer it.

COSTELLO: Let's talk about the world of politics. You know, Hillary Clinton is running for president. Do you support her candidacy?

JUDD: I think it's pretty glorious. It's about time. We have had many wonderful and very qualified female candidates for president before. Obviously, Hillary Rodham Clinton takes that to a whole new level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Ashley Judd. Many thanks to New York (INAUDIBLE) for inviting me to brainstorm along with so many exceptional women.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM. Marijuana, Sanjay Gupta has a special you will not want to miss. A preview, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:51:28] COSTELLO: CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta's three-year investigation into medical marijuana is entering a new phase. In his latest installment, "Weed 3: The Marijuana Revolution," he follows the journey of a veteran with PTSD who attempted suicide, failed, and turned to marijuana as a last resort.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISSY KIERNAN, WIFE OF MEDICAL MARIJUANA PATIENT: We really came to the conclusion that it was really the medicine for him.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: How much does it concern you that there isn't a lot of science behind this? That it hasn't really been studied, at least not in this country?

KIERNAN: If he wasn't doing this, the fear is he wouldn't be here. If there are some side effects that we're going to have to deal with down the road that haven't been studied yet, we'll take that when it comes. But for now, the children and I have my husband and father with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me now from Atlanta. Hi, Sanjay. Should this veteran be concerned that there are no studies that show that marijuana is effective in dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts?

GUPTA: Part of the reason we showed that and introduce you to Sean Kiernan, that veteran, is because that's the state of affairs right now. People are given all these medications. Many of them don't work. He was suicidal, literally overdosed on mainstream medications and turns to this as a last resort. The position he's in is it's trial and error for him. He has to try different things and figure out what's going to work and what the doses are. We know more about the fact that, as an adult, that the concern is not so much the impact on the brain, there is a concern about impact on adolescent brain, but just how well does it work and how do you maximize its -- that efficacy? We just don't know that yet. That's what they're trying to do is get this topic and this medicine studied.

COSTELLO: So is any research on that aspect of marijuana underway?

GUPTA: That's one of the exciting things about this new documentary. The science revolution is happening. The answer is yes. There's now a federally approved study to look at that exact thing, Carol. The impact of the marijuana on the brain, what it does and what the long- term impact is. Here's how scientists think it might work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People with PTSD have an imbalance in their brain. Too many receptors associated with intense emotions like fear and anxiety and not enough of a chemical that binds to these anxiety receptors to keep them calm and in check. Marijuana is filled with a chemical that can bind to these receptors and help restore balance to the PTSD brain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So Carol, they're looking for a substance, essentially, that can quiet those receptors that are associated with the anxiety and flashbacks and things that are often a part of PTSD but not completely shutdown other parts of the body. And that's what the ideal medication would be. So far, it looks like marijuana at least has some of those properties.

COSTELLO: That's really fascinating. What surprised you most in working on this third installment?

GUPTA: You know, two years ago when we started doing this, Carol, three years ago, no one would really be talking about this. Government officials would not sit down. Patients were very suspicious because they were stigmatized so heavily. Now just three years later, you do feel this sort of revolution happening. I don't want to overstate that because people have been working on these issues for 40 years, but the amount of federal approvals now for studies has gone up. The farm that provides marijuana for studies, they've increased production 30-fold in the last year alone. So there are all these signs everywhere, Carol, I think, about this sort of marijuana revolution and it started off on state ballots. But now legitimate scientists are diving headfirst into collecting this data.

[09:55:17] COSTELLO: Fascinating. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much for joining me this morning. I appreciate it, as always. "Weed 3: The Marijuana Revolution" premiers Sunday night, 9:00 Eastern and Pacific, right here on CNN.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, a nuke deal in danger after Congress votes to get a final say. Harsh words today from the leader of Iran.

Plus, spring break horror. An alleged rape caught on camera. Hundreds of people on the beach. Why didn't anyone stop it?

And a police officer rams a suspect with his car. Why the department says the officer had to act.

Let's talk, live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

[09:59:52] There's growing concern this morning. Nuclear talks with Iran could fall apart. Tehran says it may walk away. Just hours ago, Iran's president says he will not accept any deal unless that agreement guarantees that all sanctions be lifted immediately. This latest blow even more daunting because the White House finally agreed to allow Congress a vote on any final deal.