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Dr. Drew
Crazy in Love Killer?; Did Husband Rape Wife?; Man Accused of Rape of Wife with Alzheimer`s; Girl Gang Raped on the Beach During Spring Break. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 15, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, Spring Break gang rape. A young woman is assaulted on a beach. Someone records the attack and police say hundreds
of onlookers did nothing to stop it.
And new details in the case of a husband who is on trial for allegedly raping his own wife because she had dementia and couldn`t consent.
Let`s get started with WTF.
A story dominating Twitter and Facebook, former honor student on trial for murdering her boyfriend. She says self-defense. You decide.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
911 OPERATOR: Campbell County, 911.
SHAYNA HUBERS: Ma`am, I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
NARRATOR: Shayna Hubers is on trial for murder.
HUBERS: He threw me across the room. And I was very startled. I was lying on the floor.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
HUBERS: And I killed him.
NARRATOR: The prosecutors say she shot her boyfriend six times because he broke up with her.
911 OPERATOR: All right. What`s his name?
HUBERS: Ryan Carter Poston. He`s an attorney in Cincinnati.
NARRATOR: A jury will have to decide was the shooting justified or is she a love-crazed killer?
HUBERS: I mean, I`m not a murderer, ma`am. I just killed him.
911 OPERATOR: Have you had a history of domestic violence with him?
HUBERS: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And is it your gun?
HUBERS: No. This is his gun. He keeps loaded guns in the house.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Here`s more of that 911 call. Now, it has been edited for time. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
911 OPERATOR: Have you been injured?
HUBERS: I`m not injured, ma`am. I was thrown into the side of the couch.
911 OPERATOR: So he slammed you into the couch, but you don`t have any injuries?
HUBERS: I don`t have any injuries. I was just very frightened. He`s (inaudible) a lot bigger than me. He`s 6`3", 200 pounds. I`m 5`8", 120.
And he -- and he picked me up and (inaudible) out of the house and I said, "Let me get my things at least if we`re going to break up" and he wouldn`t
let me get my things. And when I reached around and tried to get my things, he threw me across the room. And I was very startled. I was lying
on the floor.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
HUBERS: And I killed him.
911 OPERATOR: And how long ago did you shoot him?
HUBERS: I don`t know. 15, 10, 15 minutes. Not even that long.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: 15 minutes ago.
Joining us, Sam Schaffer, Pop Trigger on Hulu.com, AnneElise Goetz, attorney, and Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine
University.
Judy, there`s a lot packed into those 911 calls. But what`s your first impression here?
JUDY HO, PH.D, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t think that this was just a domestic violence issue, Dr. Drew. I really don`t see in the call and then
other details that we`ve already learned that there is actually a real threat to her person, that this is a historical issue that she`s been
wrestling with. It sounds like she may have accidentally shot him but then as she realized how much he was suffering and perhaps going to come after
her, she ended up pulling the lethal trigger.
PINSKY: Well, that`s -- we -- I think we have more than a 911 call where she says that -- but I want to get the whole panel`s impression first.
Sam, what do you think?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST, "POP TRIGGER": Yes. I think that this was a crime of passion, Dr. Drew. I think that she`s guilty -- exclamation mark,
dot, capital G -- and when you learn about the evidence, when you learn that, you just announce the fact that yes, she waited 15 minutes to call
911 before (inaudible).
PINSKY: Just that. Just that. Just (inaudible). She shoots the guy in the face and does, "Hmm. What shall I do now? It was an accident but he`s
not quite dead yet. I`m not sure. Maybe a couple of more shots."
Here`s more of that 911 call. AnneElise, I`ll let you ring in afterwards. But I`ve got to just (inaudible) tell you this. I think in this one, it`s
where she says how many times she shot the guy. Look. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
HUBERS: I`m standing about (inaudible) feet from his dead body.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Are you sure that he is dead?
HUBERS: He`s -- he`s dead, ma`am. He`s completely dead. Ma`am, and then because he was twitching and I knew he was going to die anyway and he was
making funny noises, I shot him a couple more times just to kill him `cause I knew he would have been.
911 OPERATOR: I`m sorry. You said you shot him a couple more times after that?
HUBERS: Yes. I.
911 OPERATOR: How many times did you shoot him total?
HUBERS: I don`t know.
911 OPERATOR: So you shot him instead of calling 911?
HUBERS: Do what?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: If you weren`t so tragic, it could be comic, AnneElise. But councilor, you`re going to defend this young lady. She`s -- she`s -- she -
- there`s a possibility -- I mean, does she -- she -- I don`t know what to say because this reminds me of the gang rape story we`re going to tell
later this evening because people look at people that are in need of medical care and what do they do to them? They rape them. They shoot
them. Is that what the world we live in now?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Well, I hope not. What we`re not seeing here though, Doctor Drew, and what the defense is really going to emphasize is
that she was obviously upset. She had just taken the life of another human being. A reaction to that would be a little crazy and maybe not
necessarily a normal conversation with a 911 operator.
PINSKY: (Inaudible) Ms. Defense attorney, I think we need to give you a chance to regroup and then organize your defense on this -- for this case.
Did you want -- did you want to say something else? `Cause I have a feeling you`re not going to be able to defend this lady.
[21:05:07]
GOETZ: No, I -- she`s -- she was covered in bruises, Dr. Drew. And when we`re talking about someone that has a -- that`s claiming self-defense, you
have to look at the fact that she did have bruises on her arms, her legs, her torso, and I think that we -- that`s a very important factor when we`re
talking about self-defense and you have to keep in mind that Kentucky has very broad self-defense rules. And so it`s one of those "stand-your-
ground" states and if she perceived a threat -- if she perceived that she was in imminent bodily harm or deadly bodily harm, then she would be able
to take that action.
PINSKY: Then she should -- then she should kill the guy. Sam, is that right? She`s worried that she`s going to get another bruise, fire away.
SCHACHER: And not only that, Dr. Drew. Before she waited the 10, 15 minutes to leisurely call 911, first, she decided to call her mom. And
then, let`s talk about the fact when she`s being questioned by investigators, they mentioned that she shot him in the face and she said,
"Yes. He wanted a nose job so I gave him one."
PINSKY: Oh, I think we have all that later.
SCHACHER: Who says that? But who says that?
PINSKY: I know. Well, OK. Well, Judy, who does say that? What are we forming here? Is this another Jodi Arias situation? Or is this something
like that? I don`t get the psychopathy because there isn`t a premeditation that we saw with Jodi but there is the impulsivity and the -- and the sort
of lack of understanding of how she`s being perceived by others.
HO: That`s right. So I don`t think of the psychopathy here either, Dr. Drew, but I do pick up on the lack of impulsivity, the poor decision-
making, the fact that she would spout off all of these things in the wake of her killing him, talking to his -- her mom, and then calling the police
and seemingly very surprised that she was asked how many times she shot him - like that`s not a valid question.
PINSKY: And the scary thing is this man probably could`ve been -- I mean, it takes a lot to kill somebody and we could really bring people back from
terrible, terrible injuries. If she had just accidentally shot him and then -- as the operator said, "You didn`t call 911?" so somebody could have
a chance to save this man`s -- whom you accidentally shot.
Look at this. This is a text message that this woman sent to a friend days before the death of her boyfriend. The text reads, I`m quoting, "When I go
to the shooting range with Ryan tonight, I want to turn around, shoot and kill him and play like it`s an accident."
HO: Right. So there`s (inaudible) a lot.
SCHACHER: Who says that?
HO: Right. So there`s the obviously been other resentment that`s been building. This is not a "I have bruises on my body so now I have to shoot
the person dead to defend myself." She`s already rendered him harmless when she shot his face so why does she proceed to shoot him more. I
thought the 911 operator`s question was very pointed. "Instead of calling us, you shot him some more times when you saw he was in trouble?" That`s
basically what it was.
PINSKY: And AnneElise, got something for us?
GOETZ: This -- this wasn`t an accident, guys. We`re not saying this was an accident. She was -- she was shooting him in self-defense. She feared
for her life. According to her.
PINSKY: Maybe. Maybe, yes.
GOETZ: .she feared for her life. And when we talk about that text message, obviously, that text message is horrible. OK. It`s every defense
attorney`s worst nightmare. I`m not going to argue with that. But it doesn`t mean that she actually killed him. It doesn`t mean that maybe she
felt that way because she was being abused by him.
PINSKY: All right.
GOETZ: And so she sends off that text message like "I can`t take it anymore. I`m just going to kill this guy."
PINSKY: I will -- I will grant you that as a possibility. But it`s not adding up to mean -- it`s hard for me to imagine that`s in fact what it
meant.
But next, we`ve got more of this 911 call and she will reveal and talk about why she shot him deliberately in the face and continued to shoot at
him.
And later, the Spring Break rape case. Police are asking why didn`t anyone intervene in any way to stop this? I`ve got thoughts. We`re back after
this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:10:01]
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Campbell County 911.
HUBERS: Ma`am, I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
911 OPERATOR: What did you kill him with?
HUBERS: A gun. A loaded gun in the house.
911 OPERATOR: Can you tell me where the gun is right now?
HUBERS: The gun is in the house.
911 OPERATOR: Where at though, ma`am? Tell me where it`s at.
HUBERS: I laid it on the book shelf.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s your name?
HUBERS: My name is Shayna Michelle Hubers.
911 OPERATOR: All right. What`s his name?
HUBERS: Ryan Carter Poston. He`s an attorney in Cincinnati.
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
HUBERS: I`m standing about (inaudible) feet from his dead body.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Are you sure that he is dead?
HUBERS: He`s -- he`s dead, Ma`am. He`s completely dead. Are they going to arrest me?
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, I don`t know what they`ll do.
HUBERS: I mean, I`m not a murderer, ma`am. I just killed him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: "I`m not a murderer. I just killed him."
I`m back with Sam, AnneElise, and Judy.
And Shayna Hubers - not a murderer but a killer. She shot and killed her boyfriend in 2012. The question here though, was there some element in
self-defense. Look at this as she being -- as she is being interrogated and see who you think of. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: I shot him probably six times. Shot him in the head. He fell onto the ground. He was, like lying like this. His glasses were still on.
He was twitching some more. I shot him a couple more times just to make sure he was dead because I didn`t want to watch him die.
I really loved him, and it`s just really messed up that we had to get into a physical fight and that this had to happen, you know? And if I could go
back all over again, I would rather have my head beat into the coffee table.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: AnneElise, she`s right. She got one thing right. This is really messed up.
GOETZ: It is. And I just don`t -- I don`t want to downplay here, folks, that we`re saying, "Oh, well, she had some bruises." That`s a real thing.
That`s domestic abuse and what we`re looking at is what she perceived was happening to her.
PINSKY: You know, AnneElise, hold on. I`m a -- let me -- let me -- Judy, you may want to comment on what I`m about to say, but you kind of -- I have
(inaudible) sort of an emotional reaction when you say that because I -- I feel very strongly about domestic abuse and domestic violence. Now, leave
AnneElise up there with me `cause I really want to address her on this, but I`m telling you what, everybody out there, if you are in a domestic
violence or domestically-abusive situation, get the hell out before something like this happens because when it does, it`ll be on you.
[21:15:03]
And it doesn`t -- it`s (inaudible) not on you that you`re in this relationship. It`s not on you that you`re the victim of a domestic
violence. But you can`t take these things into your own hands and kill somebody.
AnneElise, am I wrong?
GOETZ: You should not be taking the law into your own hands. But if the domestic abuse gets to the point that you -- in that moment -- are in fear
for your life or severe bodily harm.
PINSKY: Get out. Get out of there.
GOETZ: .then you have to -- no. This is Kentucky. This is "Stand-Your- Ground" state. If you feel like you are being attacked and that you are in imminent harm, you are allowed to take deadly force. That is the law in
Kentucky. And that -- for those domestic abuse victims out there, obviously, they want to have them get out of those relationships.
Obviously.
PINSKY: Get out. Learn from this. Get out. You`re being sitting and that you`re going to be defending yourself some murder charge and you want to be
there? I mean, this poor woman, if she was an object of domestic violence, too late. No. I don`t know what her defense is going to be and I don`t
know if this can be another Jodi Arias. But I do know people have the opportunity to end and get out of these situations.
Judy, you feel me on this one?
HO: I definitely, Dr. Drew. And you know what? You don`t have to leave. You can stand your ground. But why is shooting somebody the first line of
defense? Your first line of defense should be to run and your second line of defense maybe is to render him incapable of being able to cause you harm
which she already did with the first shot. And this is where it doesn`t make sense, Dr. Drew, because even when we hear her during her
interrogation, she is externalizing a lot of the blame and pulling at that victim mentality of "I just wish that I could have my head banged into the
table instead." What`s that all about? Take responsibility for the fact that this is what happened and that you did have something to do with it
and you could`ve made a better judgment call even when you are in fear.
PINSKY: Sam, listen to more of this interrogation tape and then (inaudible) your comment. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He`s very vain. And one of the last conversations we had that was good was that he wants to have that surgery (inaudible) and wants to get a
nose job.
And I shot him right here. I gave him his nose job. He wanted it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Boy. I`m telling you, what.
SCHACHER: Is she not all there? I know that she`s an honor student but for an honor student, she says some pretty dumb things. I mean, you don`t
say that to the investigator. That makes you look guilty. It makes you look inhuman. She`s clearly trying to play the victim in the other
interrogation tape.
PINSKY: That`s the part -- but Sam, that`s what Judy`s still talking about -- they have that victim mentality. It`s like "Well, he wanted this so I
gave it to him." I mean, literally, that she`s -- to me, that makes sense to her as she`s going through the interrogation. "You want a nose job so I
(inaudible) and then I shot him in the nose." What do you do?
SCHACHER: Right. "I gave it to him." And her 911 call seemed very rehearsed, Dr. Drew. Everything seems rehearsed. Nothing feels authentic
to me at all. She only really started to panic in that 911 call as soon as the operator started asking her those really hard-hitting questions like
"Why didn`t you call 911?" Then you start to hear her start to cry uncontrollably, probably because she felt guilty and it wasn`t going along
the plan that she had hoped for.
PINSKY: I`m going to share you some more interrogation tape in just a second. There she is now in the courtroom. But Judy, I -- it`s so funny.
This one is not -- again, it took a while to figure out what Jodi was all about too, I guess. We have to learn more about this woman. But I
strangely don`t get the borderline feel on this one. I don`t know what this is but -- you know what I mean? I don`t hear the chaos. I don`t hear
the emptiness or something that I don`t know what it is on this one that it feels more -- maybe it`s a trauma stuff. Maybe it`s just trauma without
the personality (inaudible) or something. Are you -- AnneElise, you want to say something?
GOETZ: I think it feels -- it feels more real. It feels more like a victim (inaudible).
PINSKY: No. No. It feels more -- no. It feels less.
GOETZ: She actually has the bruises. She does. And unlike Jodi, she had -- she has a good strong family relationship. She didn`t run. She called
the cops. She didn`t hide the gun. She told them where it was.
PINSKY: Yes, you`re right. No, you`re right. There was psychopathy and all that premeditated stuff is absolutely not here. But you would expect -
- what Judy and I are looking for is someone that comes from chaos and we`re not getting that chaotic feeling from her and that`s what a little
confusing. But look at this though, see if it doesn`t remind you of Jodi when, at one point, the interrogator stepped out of the room.
Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: (Singing).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam, I actually think I saw your hair stand up (inaudible).
SCHACHER: I have -- you did see that because I have chills on my arm, Dr. Drew. Good eyes. Wow. But yes, I feel like she`s trying to take a page
out of Jodi Arias` book. Maybe she wants the infamy. Maybe she`s trying to learn from Jodi Arias, that`s why she`s maligning her boyfriend. I
don`t know. But it doesn`t feel sincere at all.
HO: No.
PINSKY: It feels weird. It seems weird. And let`s not forget who this man was. This was a young, really attractive young man. Ryan Poston,
described as a promising young attorney. He`d just opened his own private practice. A detective testified that the relationship was -- quote -- on-
again, off-again and he said this gentleman -- there he is -- was clearly - - quote -- clearly trying to break up. One of Ryan`s last text to Shayna said, quote, "I think I need some time by myself this weekend."
[21:20:10]
Dude, you are absolutely right about that, man. But unfortunately, you didn`t get to spend that time by yourself.
And just imagine the tragedy. All this -- all that promise in this one dude is taken away by this young lady.
And AnneElise, I`m not sympathetic to the defense. I`m just not. This is -- it feels wrong. It feels awful and there`s a promising human life
extinguished. And listen, he may have (inaudible) been duplicitous in some fashion, you think he deserved this, AnneElise? Really? Do you think so?
GOETZ: Of course not. He is -- I will not argue -- a man lost his life in this situation and that is tragic. That should not be the (inaudible).
PINSKY: Let`s leave it at that. But this is -- this is shades of Jodi Arias but we still -- for those of us who are trying to analyze her and
figure her out, can`t quite figure out what this is yet. But it`s -- it feels empty. It feels narcissistic. (Inaudible) a little bit. We`ll see
as it goes along.
Next up, new details on the trial of a husband accused of raping his own wife because she allegedly couldn`t render consent the way people thought
she should be able to.
And later, a young man is accused -- no, two young men are accused and charged with a terrible crime -- raping an unconscious -- three (inaudible)
men, I guess now -- raping an unconscious woman.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:01]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Henry Rayhons is on trial for third degree sexual abuse for allegedly having sex with his wife in her nursing home without her consent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The nursing home caregiver said it in the 18 years that she`s been doing this, she has never seen a situation where a man was
so insistent upon continuing sexual activity. This guy, I think, is sick.
NARRATOR: 78-year-old Donna Rayhons who suffered from dementia and later died is considered a rape victim -- at least by prosecutors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he wanted to have sex, he should`ve paid a prostitute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, AnneElise, Judy in a segment we call "Seriously?".
It`s a 78-year-old, Henry Rayhons. He could go to prison for 10 years if he is convicted of felony sex abuse.
Sam, remind us of the evidence against this poor man.
SCHACHER: OK. Yes. Let`s revisit the case. So a little over a week after he was warned she couldn`t consent to sex, prosecutors say her
roommate claimed he came in and pulled the curtain closed. She then heard noises indicating he was having sex with her. They also say they found
matching semen samples on the bedding. And there`s the surveillance video. You see him walking in, escorting his wife into her room. He then leaves
and on the way out, he discards her underwear into the nearby laundry bin.
PINSKY: Judy, you and I have talked about this before. We`ve got to begin to come to terms with this. There`s got to be standards and criteria for
what to do about consent for people with cognitive impairments. By cognitive impairments, I mean, the decreases in this part of the brain --
the part of the brain where you have reasoning and judgment and things that we`re all going to have difficulty with -- God willing we live long enough
-- we`re going to have trouble like that. It`s going to be like we have two glasses of wine which in this state, you suddenly can`t consent
anymore. So it becomes confusing to people. And, by the way, as you age, you can want to have all sorts of experiences -- sensory experiences --
that you can still enjoy. In fact, it might be the only thing you enjoy in life such as sitting outside on a warm day, eating cake versus spring
beans, making those choices, having intimate contact with your spouse. Why are we going to deprive people of that?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, you`re right about the standards. We don`t have good standards. And when you`re talking about either age-related cognizant
(inaudible) or when it`s more serious in the case of dementia, sometimes your kind of status can change more quickly in -- within a few weeks.
PINSKY: (Inaudible) day-to-day.
HO: Day-to-day. And this might be one of those situations.
PINSKY: But, well, no. Apparently, she was severely cognitive-impaired. We have to concede that. Apparently, her mental status exam was like a
zero. It -- she was unable to really answer almost any questions. But she fed herself, she seemed to enjoy eating, she likes -- she recognized her
husband and wanted him close. She certainly did not want him close.
And AnneElise, the defense denies the couple had sex on that particular day. They`re trying to convince the jury that in fact, if he had, it
would`ve been OK anyway. Is that a good strategy?
GOETZ: It is a good strategy, Dr. Drew, because right now, the prosecution has a two-pronged effort. They have to not only convince the jury that
there was a sex act that occurred that day, but also that there wasn`t consent. So the first thing the defense attorney is going to do is say,
"It didn`t occur. They were just."
PINSKY: I -- go ahead. I`m sorry. Finish your thought. I just feel so bad for this guy. I mean, we`ve got -- we`ve got the crystals out there
calling him a sick guy, telling him to throw aside his marital vows and go see a prostitute rather than maintaining intimacy with his wife. Is --
everybody, it`s his wife.
SCHACHER: And Dr. Drew, they were -- they were pretty much newlyweds. They were both widowed. They only had been married like six or seven
years. According to people that were familiar with the couple, they were passionately in love with each other. They couldn`t keep their hands off
each other.
PINSKY: And Sam, Sam, I`m glad you said that. And this morning, in court, Henry Rayhons actually got tearful as you listen to the interview with the
investigators. This was recorded shortly after the alleged assault.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY RAYHONS: I would guess that if -- if I -- if I indeed have sex that night, that she asked for it. She says, "Shall we play a little game?"
We wanted a marriage that we could both go to church and worship together then have company in a home like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s entirely possible, right, Judy? It`s -- people. Listen, sometimes, people with dementia get hypersexual.
HO: That`s right. And Dr. Drew, as you mentioned before, there are sensory experiences that that person may still want -- even though they
cannot verbally communicate that that`s what they want. And this could`ve been a situation that she was in. So do we have standards for evaluating
the various types of consent people can.
PINSKY: We don`t. We don`t.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And AnneElise, this is what troubles me. They -- one of the -- one of the criteria they use at this nursing home was this physician who --
on the stands -- says he`s never been asked to make a determination like that in his entire career, decades-long career. No one ever said, "Does
this person have the capacity to render consent to be with his spouse or her spouse?" It`s so crazy-making. Now, I`ll grant you, we need those
kinds of criteria. We just don`t really have them.
[21:30:11]
GOETZ: And Dr. Drew, that`s not what you want from your expert witness, right?
PINSKY: No, no, no, he wasn`t the expert witness. He was actually -- this woman`s physician and the family came in and said, can she have sex with
her husband or not? We want to know.
And you can imagine, the guy is like just try to do his job and freaked out by the family coming on to him with this sort of energy.
Listen, we tried an experiment. This is all about men having sex with a wife having dementia. We turn the table on my panel.
Sam, you did an experiment today. You asked your husband if he would want you to have sex with him if he could not consent? If his mental status
reading was zero, would he still want you to have sex with him if you so desire and if he showed a little bit of interest. Let`s say he didn`t even
show interest.
SCHACHER:: OK. So I actually texted him, Dr. Drew. Should I read you the text?
PINSKY: Please.
SCHACHER:: Actually, it`s quite telling. I wrote "If you had dementia when you were older, would you still want to have sex with me?" And then I
say, "We are supposed to ask the guys this question, by the way." And then he says "how would I know if I don`t have dementia. I`ll let you know when
it happens."
PINSKY: Thanks, Mark. That`s it.
SCHACHER:: So I respond. I continue to press, of course. If you did, do you think -- if you didn`t recognize me.
He said "then you would be a hot girl I never met." So I say, "So you would be down to have sex with dementia," then he writes, "yup."
PINSKY: Wait, let me give you an xy interpretation using my male chromosome.
SCHACHER:: OK. Good. Yes.
PINSKY: He`s saying he`d be even more inclined to have sex with you if he had dementia is what he`s saying.
SCHACHER:: Right. Even if he didn`t recognize me. It would be a bonus.
PINSKY: Do you feel me? Yes, yes. This may become an even bigger issue of course as millions more are going to be diagnosed with Alzheimer`s in
the not too distant future.
Later on, we`re going to talk about a spring break gang rape recorded by someone in a crowd of hundreds. Authorities say no one made any move to
attempt to stop this. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:36:27]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: I would want to be protected so I could maintain closeness with my spouse. Somebody on twitter is calling me a rape apologist. That`s not my
point at all.
So much of what is done to help Alzheimer`s patients and dementia patients is to maintain their quality of life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have early onset dementia. If I can`t consent in years to come, don`t assume. With my illness, don`t want to half the time
now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If my husband is by my side after so many years and through dementia, let him have at me. I consent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn`t matter if you`re married, rape is rape. If someone can`t remember their last name, they can`t consent to sex.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: You know, I tell you what.
This is why we all have to learn from this case and we should include in our directive to physicians about what sorts of medical care we want
including how we want to maintain our relationships, when we consent, how we consent. We need to get very, very elaborate and explicit and specific
in terms of directives to physicians and health care providers.
Because you do not want this nonsense to happen. This is a heart breaker. We are talking about Henry Rayhans. He`s on trial for rape. He`s 78 years
old. Because he had sex with his wife. She couldn`t render consent because she has dementia. I`ve got a person close to the case who have
been following our coverage who raises this issue -- what if a spouse feels guilty or obligated because the partner with dementia seems to be reaching
out to them for comfort.
Sam, I`ll go back to you. In other words, people with dementia sometimes really, could be kind of aggressive and they may not have verbal ways of
communicating it. What should the spouse do who feels like they want to maintain closeness or feels even guilty for rejecting the spouse?
SCHACHER:: Right. I would hope that you can feel it in the moment, Dr. Drew. I mean the only thing --
PINSKY: Yes, you can`t because the place said she can`t render consent.
SCHACHER:: Yes, OK. Let`s aside from that, right, aside from that, when you hear from the roommate, the roommate never said that she was resisting.
She never heard her say no. She never heard her shift or --
PINSKY: Discomfort or pain.
SCHACHER:: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER:: And when people describe this couple, they described them, very recent, right up until this moment as very much hands on, touchy, feely.
When he would come into the room she would get excited. So I think all of that needs to come into play here. I feel like nobody is looking at the
full picture.
PINSKY: Right. I absolutely agree. I don`t think anybody cares. Crystal was the one that called him sick and a rapist and told him to get a
prostitute. I was like, really, Crystal, do you mean those things? She made some other startling comments in her comments about this case. Take a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRYSTWAL WRIGHT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You seem to think sex, the intercourse act is about intimacy and that really offends me. This guy, I think is
sick. You know what, you can have a lot of intimacy with your wife, you could lie down with her in bed, you can kiss her. If he wanted to have
sex, he should have paid a prostitute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, on Facebook, Jacqueline responds, "sexual abuse for having consensual legally married intimacy with his wife by law? I guess every
married man in the U.S. better prepare themselves for jail, god forbid this man would have committed adultery instead of loving his lawful wife. Judy?
HO: Well put, Jacqueline. I mean this is absolutely true. What are we talking about here? There are different levels and types and expressions
of intimacy. And for this couple, it sounds like it`s actually part of their normal pattern. As Sam told us, they were loving, physical couple.
If this is something that they always had together, this sexual component for their intimacy, why shouldn`t they continue to have that? Maybe he
feels lonely, maybe she did reach out for it. Either way, both of them deserve to have that love, Dr. Drew.
Of course, as you know, for people with dementia, the more they feel that social comfort and love, the more they actually thrive. They have actually
better outcomes, healthwise and mental healthwise.
[21:40:08]
PINSKY: And what are we trying to do here? What`s our plan? Is this a police state we`re trying to create here or are we trying to create meaning
in life? Elise, I`ll let you have the slippery slope argument. I`m sure you have that coming from the legal perspective but I`ll give you last
thoughts here.
GOETZ: We`re not creating a police state, Dr. Drew. What we`re looking at is whether someone has the ability to consent to sexual acts. I don`t care
that they`re married. Because that is not an excuse to -- if someone doesn`t consent, it doesn`t matter if you`re married or not.
I want to talk just quickly to what Sam said, building the whole picture. That`s exactly what the defense attorney is doing -- the defense attorney
is going in there and saying look at the whole picture, jurors, this is a loving, beautiful relationship and even if that jury finds and believes
that maybe he committed this crime, there`s always that chance a jury nullification if they buy into that beautiful story that you and Sam have
been talking about.
PINSKY: We have a poll. So far the poll was you consider a husband having sex with his wife who suffers from dementia, abuse? Are you considering it
as such.
It`s kind of split, 42 percent say yes, 58 percent say no. I`m just here to say this -- it`s a really important story for all of us. Because we are
all living longer. We are all -- the population is aging at a very high rate and dementia is becoming an increasingly common condition that we all
need to anticipate could potentially happen to us or one of our loved ones.
As a result, we better be very explicit in our planning and write things down. If you do not, there may be laws that come out of these sorts of
trials or may precedent set where you want to maintain physical contact with your spouse but cannot because the system will not let you, regardless
of what your wishes are, regardless of your spouse`s, regardless of your marital vows, regardless of the intimacy you`ve garnered and maintained
over years. None of that matters if this sort of thing prevails.
I understand we`re trying to protect somebody. I`m not saying because somebody is married they can`t be an object of rape or a can`t be a
perpetrator of rape. Of course I understand that`s always possible. We want to protect people from that put but we really need to be much more
sophisticated in how we evaluate situations like this.
Next up, speaking of evaluating, I`ve got three people in custody charged with rape during spring break. You want to see more about this story?
Follow us back on Facebook. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:46:38]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: This is disgusting.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: A young woman possibly drugged and then gang raped on a crowded Florida beach during spring break.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: They look like wild animals feeding on a corpse in the middle of the woods.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Completely unresponsive while three men allegedly held her and forced themselves upon her.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: It pissed me off. She was totally incapacitated. She was not even moving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says she doesn`t remember being raped and only realized it when she saw the video.
PINSKY: This poor woman thinks she was drugged. I bet she was not. I bet it was strictly alcohol-related.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: People were more interested in spilling their beer than they were about what was happening right next to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Anneelise and Judy. This is our most tweeted story of the day. A woman gang raped in broad daylight on the beach. The
sheriff says hundreds of people watched it happen and did nothing other than record the crime on a cell phone.
Sam, my question is, was this merely a bystander effect which is the more people around, the less likely you are to do something? Or is something
more pervasive going on in our culture.
SCHACHER: Something is more pervasive going on in our culture, Dr. Drew. We have this party culture, this rape culture that is so prevalent along or
among college campuses. That`s fueled by alcohol. Fueled by misogyny. Fueled by a lack of boundaries and respect. I mean even when I was in
college, I know dozens of those stories, Dr. Drew. I know people that were victims of rape similar to that.
PINSKY: And wait a minute. We still allow binge alcohol on campuses? That`s all alcohol stuff. Look at any adverse outcome on a college campus,
for the health of their students, you find alcohol, whether it`s an STD, an unwanted pregnancy, an accident, a fight. You name it, it`s always alcohol
related.
Here`s a woman who was so incapacitated she could not move. That means she may not have been able to swallow. That means she could have aspirated and
died within minutes. This is a kid that should have been taken to the hospital. Instead, Judy, she gets raped.
HO: Right. Dr. Drew, unfortunately as you mentioned, bystander effect is a huge component here. However, there are also a lot of social cues
operating that I think make the bystander effect even worse, for example, it is out in broad daylight. That actually is bad in terms of social cues.
Nobody is alarmed. If you turn a corner and it`s dark alley and you see this happening, you know something`s not right.
But here we are, spring break out in broad daylight. People must have looked at them and thought, oh I guess, they`re just drunk and partying,
ha-ha.
PINSKY: Ha-ha. Wait a minute, that`s the ha-ha part, that`s the problem.
Anneelise, there are rooms in the bars in some of the clubs down there during spring break dedicated to daylight sex. Just go in there and do
that. These kids get used to seeing or at least they become indoctrinated to a culture. Well, hey that`s what people do, they drink and have sex in
public. That`s the way it goes. Anyway, what are you going to do about this? Nothing. Stand by.
GOETZ: That`s unacceptable, right, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: You can`t have it`s part of the culture as far as spring break to allow rape to occur and to allow all of these people to watch it and do
nothing. Come on. That is not how your mother raised you. Everyone has phones. They`re taking selfies. How about you actually call 911 and do
something.
[21:50:00]
HO: But Anneelise, this is exactly what the bystander effect is, good people do this all the time, because we are social animals.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: We catch the cues of people around us. I think this is normative.
PINSKY: It`s normative. I completely agree with you, Sam. Here`s what the sheriff told CNN.
"This is not the first video we`ve recovered. It`s not the second video, it`s not the third video. There`s a number of videos we recovered with
things similar to this. I can only imagine how many things we haven`t recovered."
That`s exactly my point. This is absolutely institutionalized in the college campus life and in the spring break phenomenon. I`ve been down
there during that. I was asked to give a lecture to a group of these people at one of these crazy bars during daylight, I looked out across to
the people I was speaking to, I thought, they could care less about what I`m trying to tell them about substance abuse and alcohol abuse.
I looked and all I saw, to my impression -- all I saw was alcoholics and sex addicts, ready to act out. That`s all I saw. See you saw people who
went down there specifically to do this. And we`re sort of endorsed. Yes, this is good. This is why you come to spring break is to do this. Judy,
you`re saying, uh-huh, I heard you.
HO: Well, I think that the social cues are important. I get that. That there is some kind of cultural phenomenon here. But, you know what I`m
talking about, Dr. Drew, about the fact that it is out in broad daylight? There`s no alarm bells going off.
PINSKY: Because there are places all over the place where they are encouraged to do this. Anneelise?
GOETZ: I agree to the bystander effect. I think that`s a great explanation but it`s not an excuse. Right now we need to address a way to
stop this.
PINSKY: I wish I hadn`t brought up the bystander thing. My point is that it is in fact a part of the cultural fabric of what young people think is
OK. Anneelise, mom is not something that`s at the top of mind there, right, Sam?
SCHACHER:: Yes, we need to have more education. Just like we have all these academic education on our college campuses. There needs to be
education on what constitutes sex, the consequences of getting blackout drunk.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER:: And they need to handle it like yesterday.
PINSKY: We have to change something. Certainly the way we`re going is not the right one. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:56:12]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: This girl who was viciously violated by these individuals --
I mean, she was totally incapacitated. She was not even moving.
We have got to get control of our beaches. It is not safe for our children to be out there on the beaches when these animals are out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anneelise and Judy. A young woman gang raped on a Florida beach during spring break. Tonight, a third suspect in custody.
Sam, can you imagine -- I mean think -- just try to imagine the bystanders. You`re there, you`re there to party, you`re getting intoxicated. Can you
imagine the mindset of the bystander? Were you yourself, if you were there, would not say something, will not do something?
SCHACHER:: I would absolutely have said something, Dr. Drew. But you just -- I think Judy brought up a point that I never thought of earlier, that
the fact they are on a beach, it`s crowded, they`re drinking. It`s 2:00 in the afternoon. They`re not hyper aware that perhaps something --
PINSKY: It doesn`t seem sinister.
SCHACHER:: No, they probably thought there`s a drunk chick getting laid. Seriously.
PINSKY: But Sam, you are zeroing -- this is why I get the reputation for being the bummer guy. I don`t mean to bum anybody`s party. The fact that
that`s OK --
SCHACHER:: Right.
PINSKY: Listen, I understand what you`re saying. I agree with you. I think that`s the way a lot of these kids look at this. That`s what this
is.
SCHACHER:: It`s not OK.
PINSKY: What`s the big deal? That`s what we go down there to do.
AnneElise, my question is can the bystanders be charged for not having reported a crime?
GOETZ: Yes, Dr. Drew, they can.
PINSKY: Prohibition.
GOETZ: Especially in Florida. It`s unique. Not a lot of these states have these laws but it`s a duty to report law. Specifically in Florida if
you are -- if you view a sexual battery, which this was, you have a duty to report that to the cops. And if we want to talk about ways to curve this
kind of behavior, I think this is an ethical issue, not a legal issue.
But guess what, one way to curb it is to bring in the prosecutor, bring in the law and start actually going after these bystanders that sat there and
did nothing and let this poor woman be raped who will be dealing with this trauma for years to come.
PINSKY: Now police in the Florida county in question here, have arrested more than 1,000 people during spring break in 2015. That is three times
the number from last year. So this is getting worse, Judy.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Do you think we have to resort to legal remedies here? We can`t talk to kids? Anneelise maybe right. I hate to think that. What do you
think?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, you just mentioned an example when you were down at a college campus trying to have this talk.
PINSKY: No, this was Panama City. This is the very place.
HO: OK. So you saw this very place, education doesn`t quite get through to people. We can start with education. But if people are not responding
then we do have to resort to discipline to rein in their behaviours.
PINSKY: All right.
HO: Whether they internally change, that`s a whole different story.
PINSKY: All right. Here`s the deal, buddy. The fact is we have to understand that sex addiction exists. It`s not hey, just whatever you`re
into, it`s all cool. It isn`t. There are healthy ways to be sexual. There are healthy ways to party. I didn`t know party suddenly meant taking
large amounts of drugs and alcohol to the point where you`re incapacitated.
That can`t be the way we think about partying. It can`t be. And college campuses they`re contemplating going the wrong direction. We should just
legalize alcohol on campuses and get over it. It`s clearly not the right direction. The right direction is to begin to take -- not to be Gestapo,
not to run people`s social experience on college campuses. I don`t want to be that guy.
But I do think we`ve got to -- the horse is out of the barn. We have to be much more diligent. People who are behaving like this, it cannot go on.
It cannot be allowed. We have to educate people about this and we have to take some sort of action or this is going to continue to spiral. People
are going to get hurt.
DVR us, you can watch us anytime, "Forensic Files" begins now.
END
