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King of Clubs Killed; Deputy Apologizes for Shooting; National Guard Claims. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 17, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:06] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Here we go. Top of the hour. Thank you so much for being with me on this Friday. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's begin with these reports we're just now getting that one of the world's most wanted terrorists has just been killed. His name is Izzat Ibrahim al Douri. But to U.S. troops serving during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, he was known as the king of clubs. Remember these cards? His depiction in that deck of playing cards used to identify key figures in Saddam Hussein's regime.

And al Douri was considered one of the worst. He was Saddam's right- hand man. And after the regime toppled, al Douri went into hiding. But today it seems he was found and killed by Iraqi security forces.

Joining me now here in New York, Atika Schubert, CNN correspondent. And with us, Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann, retired U.S. Army special forces and military advisor.

So wonderful to have both of you here with me.

Atika, first to you. How the heck did they find him?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it appears, according to Iraqi sources, that this was a - what they call a surprise operation conducted by Iraqi security forces and the Shia militia. They operated it somewhere between Tikrit and Kirkuk. And now they haven't said who else was killed in this raid, but they have identified Izzat Ibrahim al Douri, although they say they can't be 100 percent sure until DNA tests have been conducted. We have reports now that his body has been brought to Baghdad, and they're saying they should get results within 48 hours.

BALDWIN: Do we know what he's been up to these last however many years? Do either of you? Do you know?

SHUBERT: You know, he's a very elusive figure and quite a legendary figure because of his ranking in the Baathist regime. And he would only pop up occasionally. You know, you might see an audio recording from him or rumors that he was in Syria or even Qatar but very rarely was he seen. And that's why he had this sort of mythical, almost legendary reputation.

BALDWIN: What about his relationship - and I know you have some reporting on this, colonel. I don't know how much in terms of ISIS. Because I know, according to you, Atika, that, you know, he obviously was not a fan of the Iraqi government. ISIS, that is the enemy of ISIS, the Iraqi government. They want to spread this notion of a caliphate. Do we know if not only with this, you know, number two of Saddam Hussein, but other members of these - these deck of cards, were they affiliated with ISIS, do you know?

LT. COL. SCOTT MANN, U.S. ARMY SPECIAL FORCES (RETIRED): Well, I think in some of these cases it's like you were saying, the enemy of my enemy is, you know, is my friend.

BALDWIN: Yes.

MANN: In that - in that kind there's a common bond in that sense that they're facing the same enemy. But as far as like ideologically committed to that, I don't - I haven't certainly seen that, that degree of ideological commitment like you see from al Baghdadi, for example.

BALDWIN: Right.

MANN: And I think, you know, the guys that were hunting these deck of cards on the battlefield, they pulled something like 42 of them off of the battlefield. So they've got a bunch of them removed. But today I think it's a whole new level of strategic threat we're facing and I'm not completely convinced this guy's the strategic threat we once thought he was.

BALDWIN: Really? Really? With al Douri, what more as far as - he didn't actually believe that this caliphate would be what ISIS is still hoping, correct?

SHUBERT: No. Whatever alliance there might have been between al Douri's fighters and ISIS, it was purely one of convenience. Al Douri really wanted to see a return to the sort of Baathest-Sunni-led regime that was such as it was under Saddam Hussein. ISIS wants an Islamic caliphate. They might have worked together to try and overthrow the current Shia-dominated government, but that was the end of it.

And even in the last few months and weeks, there were very serious signs of strain in that relationship. Reports that maybe al Douri was even calling for air strikes against ISIS. So this is constantly shifting allegiances and alliances there. But it just looks like the Iraqi security forces managed to get al Douri at this time.

BALDWIN: Finally to you, what about - you mentioned the deck of cards and maybe he wasn't the key player or as strong as he once was. What about these other faces from this famous deck of cards? Where are they now?

MANN: Well, you know, a lot of them, operational security, laying low, and fomenting instability probably locally. But certainly the nonprofit I work at, the Stability Institute, we haven't seen any indications that these guys are - you know, have global aspirations or, you know, are closely affiliated with ISIS. You know, in fact, I would even caution that the removal of this guy from the battlefield, we have to be careful -- BALDWIN: Why?

MANN: That we think that it's - it's not necessarily a strategic blow to ISIS and the narrative that they're putting out right now. I mean if you look at what they're doing globally, they're bringing a lot of people to their cause. They're gaining a lot of -

BALDWIN: They being ISIS.

MANN: That's right.

BALDWIN: Right.

MANN: Well, al Qaeda too, but - but ISIS is gaining a lot of ground. And just because we remove this guy off the battlefield, I'm not - I'm not sure it dents them that much. I think - I think they're still a very, very capable global force that we've got to keep our eye on despite his removal.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. Atika Shubert and Scott Mann, thank you both very much. I appreciate it.

Now to this.

[14:05:00] You saw him apologize on the scene. Now Robert Bates has apologized on national television for killing a man after he confused his gun with his Taser. Today, the Oklahoma volunteer deputy, who has been charged with second-degree manslaughter, broke his silence, speaking to NBC News. At one point, the 73-year-old insurance executive demonstrated exactly how he was carrying his weapons during that undercover sting operation, which he says he accidently killed 44-year-old Eric Harris. Harris ran from those undercover officers who say he sold them illegal weapons and drugs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BATES, RESERVE DEPUTY CHARGED WITH MANSLAUGHTER: First and foremost, let me apologize to the family of Eric Harris. You know, this is the second worst thing that's ever happened to me, or first, ever happened to me in my life. I've had cancer a number of years ago. I didn't think I was going to get there. Luckily, I was able to go to a hospital where I had hours of surgery. I rate this as number one on my list of things.

My Taser is right here on the front tucked in a protective vest. My gun itself is on my side, normally to the rear.

This has happened a number of times around the country. I have read about it in the past. I thought to myself after reading several cases, I don't understand how this can happen. You must believe me, it can happen to anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, criminal defense attorney Eric Guster.

And what an interview that was, right?

ERIC GUSTER, CRIMINAL & CIVIL TRIAL ATTORNEY: It was.

BALDWIN: The stand-up demonstration, the family members sort of holding on to him behind him and all these questions from Matt Lauer. Let's just begin with, if you were defending this man, would you have let him do that interview?

GUSTER: Yes, and - because the best offense - the best defense is offense. Sometimes you have to get out in front of the story because the media has been talking about this guy, we're talking about his age -

BALDWIN: All along.

GUSTER: And donations and all those factors that go into why was he even there. Now he's trying to explain it away because he realizes that he will be sued. So he wants to make sure that no - the criminal prosecution doesn't stick. So he's trying to get his version of events out there, just like George Zimmerman did when he gave these demonstrations and different interviews to get his version out without the benefit of cross examination.

BALDWIN: But anything he said this morning on the "Today" show, that could be used in court, correct?

GUSTER: It will be.

BALDWIN: It will be used in court?

GUSTER: Yes, it will be. Anything that he says. And one thing that stuck out that he said, he said, this has happened before. I knew about it. So on the other side, even on the civil litigation side, they're going to say, if you knew about it, why didn't you take extraordinary care to make sure it did not happen again? So those types of things will come into issue when he's dealing with this type of case.

BALDWIN: I think what struck me the most is when you see him stand up - and we played, you know, part of this before, where he's pointing to where a gun would be here, a Taser would be here, and the other would be on his holster. Let me - let me just ask you, you know - and he - and you hear him say, he's apologizing to the family. You hear him on the tape saying, I'm sorry, this was a mistake. If it is a mistake, can prosecutors still convict?

GUSTER: They can because it comes down to negligence. Many people are prosecuted for the mistakes that they make. They make a mistake by driving too fast or they make a mistake by weaving into the wrong lane when driving. But this type of mistake has led to someone who's - who's - death.

BALDWIN: Were you surprised he stood up and gave that demonstration on live TV?

GUSTER: A little bit, because it was a little - it was a little weird for him to do that, to give a demonstration. I would have - I would have just given my client the opportunity to say he was sorry, because he's a remorseful type of defendant. He's older. He's - he looks kind of - kind of weak. But then on the flip side, he was out there doing a sting operation and Tasing a guy. So he's walking very slowly going to the courthouse. He looks kind of older on this video. But those things the public has seen as well. Why was this old, feeble guy out there at the scene? So he has two different stories and two different narratives that he's working against.

BALDWIN: Well, it sounds like he would say, and those in his camp would say, he was properly trained. You know, we've talked to these "Tulsa World" reporters, the newspaper breaking the story, saying, uh- uh, that they have these sources saying that they were falsified and he - this is a - he was responding to some of that this morning on the "Today" show. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BATES: That is not correct. I have a written piece of paper that a Mr. Warren Cremden (ph), now in jail for first-degree murder 40 miles east of here in Maze (ph) County, signed off to say I had done a good job.

MATT LAUER, HOST, "TODAY" SHOW: Without getting off on a tangent, you did the training and you can prove that you are certified?

BATES: That is absolutely the truth. I have it in writing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So he says he has it in writing. "Tulsa World" has something else from a source saying no and that even those who didn't want to do the doctoring had to go away, right?

[14:10:05] GUSTER: Right.

BALDWIN: And so what happens if it's discovered that it is falsified, how would that then affect his case?

GUSTER: This reminds me - and we talked about this in my office - he has 99 problems, and a subpoena is one. They're going to subpoena everything.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).

GUSTER: And subpoena power is amazing because they will go after every document that was written and try to find those people who were disgruntled, the ones who say he - they wanted me to falsify this information because there are reports that people have been fired, that they were not falsified. Those are the - those are the geese with the golden egg, the ones who are angry, who tell you where the bones are buried, tell you who told them to falsify it. And there is always a trail. There's an e-mail, a text, a phone call. There is always a trail -

BALDWIN: So they'll find it.

GUSTER: And those subpoenas will find it.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

GUSTER: I'm sure they're - I'm sure the family's lawyer, Eric Harris, and lawyers there on the white board, like we do, and we write down where would this lead and who do we need to find?

BALDWIN: Tracing it back.

GUSTER: Oh, yes.

BALDWIN: Eric Guster, thank you very much.

GUSTER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, the sheriff in charge of Aaron Hernandez for the past year and a half joins me on what the former NFL star was like behind bars and why he says Aaron Hernandez is a master manipulator. Do not miss that interview.

Plus, the National Guard officially called Ferguson protesters "enemy forces" and "adversaries." We'll talk live with one of the main Ferguson protest leaders to respond to that.

And, police say Muslims threw Christians overboard to their deaths. Hear what happened moments before. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[04:15:41] BALDWIN: They got it wrong. I didn't do it. That is a direct quote from ex-NFL star Aaron Hernandez after a jury this week found him guilty of murder in the first degree. His reaction mirroring what we often saw in the courtroom. His confidence, his swagger, unfazed, even as the verdict was handed down. Anderson Cooper spoke exclusively with all the jurors about their decision to convict him of murder. Here they are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AC 360": I notice a couple of you have called him Aaron. And I think people who haven't been on a jury don't understand the intimacy that exists in a courtroom where somebody is sitting, you know, a couple feet away from you and -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For three months every day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

COOPER: Did you look at him a lot? Did he look at you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did.

COOPER: You did?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. One time we made eye contact and he actually nodded to me at one time. And, you know, it's hard. You come in that room every day and you see this person, and it's hard to come to that decision at the end because three months with him, it's almost like you, you know, they're a part of you. And then all of a sudden now you've got to make that decision to either put him away or let him go. It's very hard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the end of the day, though, you - you - you make sure that you understand that you didn't choose to make those decisions, you were just asked to decide if they were relevant.

COOPER: Did others of you make eye contact him? I'm wondering just how that - how that felt?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we all did at one point.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, well all did at one point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, one point or another.

COOPER: How was that for you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was weird. It was strange because it's like, then you'd look away and you don't - you know, you don't want to, you know, continue to look and then just - it's just awkward, you know, because it's like you know why you're there. You know, you're there to listen to what happened and everything and to just see if he's guilty of it and to have that person look at you in the face, it's like, you know, it's scary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Those were the jurors. I want you to hear another voice here, the sheriff who oversees the jail where Hernandez was held for about a year and a half. He got to know the former tight end quite well, even became a father figure, adviser of sorts as he told me. He discussed how Hernandez lost his father when he was 16 years of age and how since then he has become a, quote, "expert at compartmentalizing." Here's the sheriff of Bristol County.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF THOMAS HODGSON, OVERSEES JAIL WHERE HERNANDEZ WAS HELD: And his father really was a very principled guy, according to Aaron, that really kept him on the straight and narrow. He was really Aaron's anchor until he unexpectedly passed away on a - I think it was a gallbladder operation. But - but Aaron talked often about his father's respect within the family. That when the father walked in the room, he commanded respect, even though the others, prior to him getting in there, really weren't acting very respectful. And I think he is - his - his hot button around that issue is that, when he's disrespected, I think he sort of took on that characteristic as a very important part of his life when his father was alive. And if you disrespected Aaron, in his mind you were disrespecting his father.

BALDWIN: Wow, that's interesting. I know, sheriff, apparently when - when he left the courthouse, he was saying to your staff, and we also corroborated this with our correspondent Susan Candiotti, that he was essentially saying, you know, they got it wrong, I didn't do it. He still had that Aaron Hernandez swagger. What do you make of those words? And tell me more about this swagger of a man who's going away for the rest of his life.

HODGSON: Well, for him to admit it would be for him to pull down that shield that he keeps around him. He's a - I ran a criminal division when I was a police officer years ago and he's the best I've ever seen. He's a master manipulator.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

HODGSON: Well, he - he's - he pays attention to everything that's going on. He knows how to use his charm better than anybody I've ever seen to get what he wants. He also is extremely adept at compartmentalizing. And that is the way that many people ask me, well, how did - he was walking in the courtroom every day and he's smiling. It doesn't look like he really did it. He doesn't feel like he did it, the way he - he carries himself. But that - that's the part that's really interesting about him. He can compartmentalize something, as he did with his father's death, to a point where he just doesn't accept it or realize it or make it a part of reality and he just pushes it away.

[14:20:06] When he was at our facility, he often talked about the fact that he didn't see it as jail, he saw it as his training camp. And -

BALDWIN: Whoa.

HODGSON: And in his own mind, he would - he would push those things away. So for him to make that comment, you know, I didn't do it, for him to accept that he may have done it and accept responsibility for it, would be to break that down. And I think if he did that, he'd have a very different sort of lifestyle and probably become very, very vulnerable, which he's very afraid to do.

BALDWIN: You know, it's one thing, Sheriff Hodgson, to think about him seeing county jail for a finite period of time as, you know, a training camp, but to be away in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life. This is a guy - this is a superstar, a Patriots player, this is a guy who dropped thousands of dollars at strip clubs and partying. I mean how - how will he be able to take that, you know, being a master manipulator and compartmentalization into that situation? I mean to me it sounds like a living hell.

HODGSON: Well, it would be for most people. But I would tell you that when he went from - when he first came into our facility, you got to remember, he - he - he ran into a stadium every Sunday and thousands of people were cheering for him in his Patriots uniform. He entered our facility, got a new uniform with a lot more numbers, and a lot less freedoms, obviously, going from a 7,000-square-foot home to a seven-by-ten foot cell. To most people, that would be such a fall from a - from a - from a really incredible place to a desolate, very sad life. But for him, he kept his demeanor. He compartmentalized it. And every day he'd smile, he'd be as natural as anybody you ever met and he - if you sat down with him, Brooke, for the first time, you'd want to take him home and have coffee with him or what have you because he just would - is so warm and outgoing in his personality. He knows how to use his charm. He's very, very good at it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Told him I didn't know if I'd want to take him home for coffee given everything we learned from that trial. But Sheriff Hodgson, Bristol County, thank you so much for joining me.

Coming up next, a Ferguson protest leader joins me live to respond to CNN's reporting that the National Guard called demonstrators "enemy forces" and "adversaries" during those protests there last - last year in Missouri.

Also, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie says he would crack down on legal weed if he were president. Well, the stars of "High Profits," making a living off pot, respond to that live.

And she is the star of "Modern Family." Now actress Sofia Vergara being sued by her ex over frozen embryos. Does she have a case?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:02] BALDWIN: Just about the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN.

Let's take a look at the numbers on Wall Street. And, yikes, see all that red there here as we're ending the week? Down 325 points with about an hour and a half left of trading. Why is that? Apparently that's because of fears, fears over debt in Greece and a slowdown in the Chinese economy. You can always check the numbers, cnnmoney.com.

Now to this. Quoting here, "enemy forces," "adversaries." In this case, we're not talking about terrorists overseas, but as CNN has learned, this is the precise language the Missouri National Guard used to describe all those protesters in Ferguson, Missouri. Internal memos obtained by CNN show the National Guard used the militarized terms as it sent troops to Ferguson last year to help tamp down on those protests. But concerned about public perception, the guard's top brass later put a stop to it, replacing the word "enemy" with "criminal elements." DeRay McKesson was one of those protest organizers and leaders some months ago in Ferguson. He joins me now from St. Louis.

DeRay, welcome. Nice to see you.

DERAY MCKESSON, FERGUSON PROTEST ORGANIZER: Thanks. Thanks for the invite. Good to be here.

BALDWIN: So when you hear - when you hear this, you know, the National Guard initially calling protesters, including you, referring to you as "enemy forces" and "adversaries," what was your response?

MCKESSON: You know, how do you protect and serve people that you've deemed to be enemies? You don't. And like, what does it mean to be deemed an enemy - an enemy force in America for just telling the truth and refusing to be silent? You know, the thing is that we've been telling the truth about the terror of police violence our whole lives. What's interesting now is that the truth is just becoming mainstream. So with like the Walter Scott video, everything that the police said never happened, happened on tape. The DOJ report about the Ferguson PD showed to the mainstream that the police were racist. And what - what this latest revelation shows is again that like we are - we are deemed a threat in America just because of the blackness of our skin. And, remember, the National Guard was called in Ferguson before anything had happened. So this is just another reminder that, again, we've been telling the truth. The truth is just now mainstream about the terror that we've been feeling from the police.

BALDWIN: And you know, in the wake of everything with the National Guard, you know, the president responded, members of Congress are trying to push this bill through in the terms of the demilitarization of police. But let me - let me just say this, because the National Guard has defended the language. This is what they told CNN in an e- mail, DeRay, let me just read this for our viewers. They said, "a generic military planning format utilized in a wide range of military missions, so the term 'enemy forces' would be better understood as potential threats. Often in guard operations, threats would include inclement weather, heat, falling levees, et cetera."

So, you know, as I mentioned, once - once the National Guard realized that there could be a real perception problem, they did change the language.

[14:29:48] MCKESSON: You know once - once the National Guard realized that people understood what the words actually meant and how damaging and dangerous the truth was of how they felt about black people in America, then they changed it. You know, this language is not used - it wasn't used around pumpkin fest. It's not used when people tear up cities, like actually riot, because of sports games.