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Severe Storms Target the South; 700 People Feared Dead in Migrant Boat Sinking; Body Cam Shows Officer Avoiding Deadly Force; The Republican Social Conundrum; Oklahoma City Bombing Anniversary; Tsarnaev Sentencing Phase Starts; Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 19, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:02] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Severe storms stretching from Texas to the Carolinas bringing damaging winds, large hail and tornadoes. This a day after a circus act in Texas had to end early when a strong storm hit, hail the size of baseballs, forcing those crowds to quickly evacuate the tent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Come here, baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Somehow that tent did not collapse. Luckily no one was injured. And then in Colorado, lightning forced some Denver-bound planes to reroute to Colorado Springs and land there. Some of those passengers were left sitting on the tarmac for six hours.

In neighboring Wyoming, blizzard conditions caused a huge pileup on Interstate 80. Blizzard conditions in the middle of April. Dozens of mangled semis brought the highway to a standstill.

And in drought-ravaged Southern California, a wind-driven wildfire is still raging out of control.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm actually quite, quite scared right now for my family and don't know what to do. If I need to get back and start planning evacuations or -- or what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Hundreds of homes are threatened from that wildfire. The chance of rain in the forecast still slim to none.

CNN meteorologist Tom Sater joins me now.

Wow. When you look at it from state to state to state, it's really severe. When you look at things right now, what states, what areas are in the bull's eye?

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, a good part of the Midwest, Poppy, all the way through the southeastern U.S., Florida, and then up toward Pennsylvania by tomorrow but here's our storm. This is water vapor. And the colors are brown here. This is dry air. So you would think Texas looks good, Louisiana, Arkansas, but that's where the thunderstorms are going to become more fierce in just a matter of hours. But really this is what we're watching.

In orange is an enhanced area where all the element ingredients are right for large hail, maybe baseball-sized hail, isolated tornadoes, but most of the activity for the first part of our Sunday has been in the deep south. Metro Atlanta at one point was under a tornado watch. That's been allowed to expire.

Here's our next watch and a new one has just been issued now as well. I mean, there's over 1.5 million in this watch here. Now this will expire at 8:00 p.m., the next one a little bit later. But it's kind of working its way up the Eastern Seaboard. There have been tornado warnings involved inside this watch. Minor tornadoes, Fort Banning, Georgia, Henry County, Alabama, south of Augusta, Georgia. And they've been allowed to expire.

But now from Augusta, you're going to be watching Columbia, South Carolina, you're in the threat for damaging winds. This line has had a history of uprooting trees and snapping some power lines. Then we find ourselves from Savannah making its way Hilton Head, hopefully the beaches are cleared. Later on, farther up the beaches, but again, a number of warnings, there's about 86,000 in this one.

Down to the south, a million people-plus in Jacksonville area under a severe thunderstorm threat as the watch there, this went down to St. Augustine and another one to the south. So that's in effect until 5:15.

St. Petersburg, Tampa, you're all looking at another line. This will be moving in, in a matter of hours. Heavy thunderstorms with numerous lightning strikes in Orlando. Blinding rainfall in Birmingham to Nashville, Tennessee, with a warning in effect now.

Two more watches. We head back into (INAUDIBLE) area from eastern Texas in toward areas of Oklahoma across into Arkansas, where we have warnings in effect south of Fort Smith. This one's been dropping some pretty good hail.

So, Poppy, this is going to go on and on, and then the threat moves to the East Coast to start the workweek.

HARLOW: Wow. All right. We'll be watching very closely.

Tom Sater, appreciate the reporting for us.

SATER: Sure.

HARLOW: Thank you.

And now I want to turn our attention to a horrific disaster in the Mediterranean just a few hours ago. It has claimed the lives of as many as 700 people, men, women and children, all desperate migrants seeking a better life. They were crammed onto a boat on a dangerous journey from North Africa hoping to reach Italy. The boat capsized and it sank overnight. Only a few of those people so far have even been found alive.

And just a few days ago, in nearly identical hugely tragic boat sinking took place in the same part of the Mediterranean Sea. Some 400 people, also migrants, also fleeing North Africa, died when their boat sank on Tuesday. That means all-in, nearly 1100 people have died in the past five days, 1600 people since January. Most of them from Sub-Saharan Africa, all of them risking their lives to reach Europe.

Officials there are furious at the, quote, "criminals," they say, who arrange these risky journeys that too often end tragically. Malta's prime minister going so far as to call it genocide. Others angry at the governments. The head of Doctors Without Borders saying a mass grave is being created in the Mediterranean Sea and European policies are responsible.

That group believes that European borders should be more open to people displaced by war or international crisis and forced to make a risky escape. The Pope also spoke about it today and on the phone joining me from Sicily, CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman.

[17:05:17] Ben, I know they are still trying to recover anyone that may have lived through this. What do we know about the casualty figures and how the rescue and recovery is going at this point?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we understand at this point that the casualty figures are pretty firm. Basically, they have managed to get 28 survivors, fished them out of the sea. Another 24 bodies have been recovered. But at this point, it's almost 24 hours since that first SOS went out from this very unseaworthy boat. And the chances of survivors is diminishing by the hour.

Now what's interesting is we just received a statement from the prosecutor's office here in Catania, in Sicily, saying that they've questioned one of the survivors from the boat who's from Bangladesh. He says that as many as 950 people may have been crammed onto this boat. According to the statement 200 of them were women, 40 to 50 were children.

Now one of the problems with this boat is that according to the statement, some of the people in the lower decks were locked inside the decks, they weren't able to escape even if they knew the ship was in danger. And this really underscores just the brutality of these human traffickers.

Now what we understand is that this boat went down when the people onboard saw a Portuguese merchant vessel passing nearby. They felt they were coming to their rescue. So many of them went to the side of the ship to signal, to wave to the ship, and this caused the ship to capsize. So it's not quite clear how many people were on board the ship when it capsized, but clearly we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of people on board.

HARLOW: And Ben --

WEDEMAN: Many still are unaccounted for.

HARLOW: And, Ben, as you and I are discussing this and search and rescue continues, what our viewers are looking at are those search and rescue vessels that are trying to save anyone that they possibly can. And as you said, only a little over 25 people have been rescued so far.

There's also a political side of this and that is the anger from a number of groups at European leaders saying they are just standing by and not doing enough to help the situation. We've even heard from the Pope this morning who has long pleaded with officials to do more to help immigrants.

Here's how the Pope described those people today. Quote, "They are men and women like us. Our brothers seeking a better life, starving, persecuted, wounded, exploited, victims of war. They were looking for a better life."

I know the Italian prime minister is meeting with some other European officials in an emergency meeting to try to address this. What might change? What might they do?

WEDEMAN: Difficult at this point to say because the problem is that this is a political football in Europe. That many of these politicians are under pressure from their own people who say we can't take all of these migrants coming in.

We're talking about last year, as many as 280,000 people came illegally to Europe from North Africa, from elsewhere. And according to the head of the front text, which is the European migration agency or border agency, they are expecting anywhere between a million -- a half a million, and a million migrants in this year, 2015. So they -- on the one happened, many people, of course, feel a humanitarian necessity to help them.

On the other, many Europeans feel that they don't have the resources to absorb these numbers, these growing numbers of migrants who are trying to get to Europe. So it is a very difficult political, logistical situation and at this point, frankly, it doesn't appear that anybody in the European political scene has a solution to it. So there's a lot of finger-pointing, but very little in the way of practical solutions to deal with this problem at the moment.

HARLOW: And in the middle of all the political fighting about this, you have the people, the people who clearly are dying in these situations.

Ben Wedeman, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Coming up next, we are going to talk about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFC. JESSE KIDDER, NEW RICHMOND POLICE DEPARTMENT: Get your hands up right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED), shoot me.

KIDDER: Stop. Stop right there. I don't want to shoot you, man. I'm don't want to shoot you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Wait until you see all of this video. A double-murder suspect charges the police officer, begging the officer to shoot him. We'll show you how it plays out next.

[17:09:53]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right, that's tonight. Stick around for it but we've got a lot of news for you before that, including this. An Ohio police officer is being praised for his restraint during a heart-stopping confrontation with an accused killer.

Officer Jesse Kidder had his gun drawn when the double-murder suspect charged at him, daring the officer to shoot. Officer Kidder was wearing a body camera. It recorded the entire thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIDDER: Get your hands up. Get your hands up. Get your hands up right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shoot me.

KIDDER: Stop. Stop right there. I don't want to shoot you, man. I don't want to shoot you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

KIDDER: That's enough. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Don't do it, man. I'll (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shoot you. I'll (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shoot you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do what you want. No, you won't. (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

KIDDER: Get back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot me.

KIDDER: Get back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot me.

KIDDER: Get your hand out of your pocket.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot me.

KIDDER: Get your hands out of your pocket now. No, man. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot me.

KIDDER: Not going to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot me. Shoot me. Shoot me.

KIDDER: Stop it right now. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Back up. Back the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up. Back the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up. Get down on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All cars, be advised, subject is running. Subject is running.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands out. Keep your hands out. You're going to get shot. You understand that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, Officer Kidder reveals that what was going through his mind and why he never pulled the trigger, listen to what he had to say.

[17:15:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIDDER: He got towards my face right as I lost balance. I'm thinking at this point that if he goes to attack me, that I will to have to use deadly force. Law enforcement officers all across the nation deal with split-second decisions that mean life or death. I wanted to be absolutely sure before I used deadly force.

CHIEF RANDY HARVEY, NEW RICHMOND, OHIO POLICE: For him to make the judgment call he did shows great restraints and maturity. This video footage eliminated all doubt that this officer would have been justified if, in fact, it came to a shooting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN law enforcement analyst, former FBI assistant director, and also a former police officer himself, Tom Fuentes, joins me now.

Tom, looking at this, double-homicide suspect, possibly armed, verbally threatening and charging the police officer, refusing to remove his hands from his pocket, charging at the officer. When you look at how this officer responded, did he make the right call or did he really risk his own life?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Oh, he absolutely risked his own life, Poppy. I mean, you know, in retrospect, OK, he makes the right call, because he is still alive and the subject is still alive. But he came within a microsecond of being dead himself if the subject chose to draw and fire. So he put himself in extreme danger and it doesn't take but, you know, a tenth of a second for a person to draw that weapon and fire at the police officer. And he did have his gun aimed at the subject. He could have pulled the trigger quickly.

And I think the fact that he's a former Marine with combat experience also gave him a little more confidence that he could make the shot and save himself. But he took that to -- as far as you can to save his own life.

HARLOW: Well, one thing I want to make clear here, Tom, we don't know if this suspect was armed or not. It's unclear. He could have been armed. He could have had something in his pocket, so that's unclear. So I wonder what your take is given that, that he very well may have been unarmed.

FUENTES: It doesn't matter in a way, Poppy. The fact that he gave all appearances that he probably was armed, he is yelling at the officer to shoot me, shoot me, shoot me, which indicates, you know, the typical scenario that we hear about suicide by cop, unfortunately, in many cases, it's suicide with cop.

I mean, we just had a pilot crash a plane. That would have been suicide by pilot if he was hang gliding but suicide with 149 other people.

HARLOW: Right.

FUENTES: And that's the problem for the officer. You can't read the mind of somebody and know what their true intentions is and what's in that pocket.

HARLOW: How much does this speak to the importance of body cameras? Because our affiliates, WLWT, says that one of his relatives gave the officer the body camera in the wake of what happened in Ferguson last summer. How important was it that this was all caught on body camera?

FUENTES: I think it's very important that it was caught on it. And I've mentioned several times, at the time I was a police officer, I would have fought tooth and nail against having a body camera. If I was on the street today, I'd buy my own. I think if you're an officer and you know you're not going to deliberately bring harm to another individual, you're going to use your best judgment and, you know, use everything you can do to save lives, you'd want a camera on there to record it and show that you did the right thing and intended to do the right thing.

HARLOW: And let's remember, this officer, by the bay, former -- a former Marine who served two tours in Iraq and is a Purple Heart recipient, and look what he did in this situation, a lot of credit certainly going to him.

Tom, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Coming up next, we're going to switch gears and talk about politics and the big political conversations already starting to form around issues like same-sex marriage, race in this country, immigration.

How will Republican hopefuls navigate these sensitive and often controversial issues? We'll talk about it next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:22:21] HARLOW: Well, it was a very busy weekend in New Hampshire. If you haven't noticed by now, a lot of Republican presidential hopefuls trying to make their best impression in the state that hosts the first presidential primary. Candidates are starting to fall in line when it comes to where they stand on social issues.

Scott Walker told reporters on Saturday that, although he doesn't support same-sex marriage, he did attend a wedding reception for a gay relative. Marco Rubio told Bob Schieffer on CBS "Face the Nation" this morning that states should have some leeway in deciding on the legality of same-sex marriage. This after Jeb Bush said he is, quote, "for traditional marriage," but that he has, quote, "no hatred or bitterness in his heart for people who have a different view."

Let's talk about it with professor and CNN political commentator, Marc Lamont Hill. Also with us Republican strategist, Lisa Booth.

Guys, thanks for being here. Lisa, let me begin with you.

LISA BOOTHE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Hi, Poppy.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Pleasure.

HARLOW: Hi. Do you think we're seeing bit of a change, a shift in some of the GOP, you know, potential candidates, maybe backing away a little bit from taking a hard line on some of these social issues, especially same-sex marriage?

BOOTHE: Well, I think they're just expressing their viewpoint. I think what we saw from the New Hampshire summit, there is a lot of excitement from Republicans right now. You know, it's a very fluid primary, and especially in a state like New Hampshire, it's anyone's game. But I think one of the biggest takeaways from the weekend is, you know, some of the Republicans contrasting themselves from Hillary Clinton.

How would they be different as a candidate than Hillary Clinton would? And one of those issues, quite frankly, is income inequality. You've got someone like Scott Walker who is highlighting his humble beginnings, talking about, you know, the suit from Joseph A. Bank he got from a three-for-one sale.

You've got someone like Marco Rubio talking about the fact that, you know, his parents were immigrants that came to this country. You know, his father was a bar tender. His mother was a, you know, housekeeper. And contrasting that with this sense of entitlement that we get from Hillary Clinton, and quite frankly who's --

HARLOW: But -- but, Lisa, on the issue --

BOOTHE: Who's very out of touch with the average American.

HARLOW: I wanted to hear from you on this issue, on this issue of same-sex marriage and these real hot-button social issues. Do you see a shift in these candidates than from the last time around in terms of maybe not taking such a hard line and maybe making the calculus that the social issues is not what this election is going to be won or lost on?

BOOTHE: Well, I think what the election is going to be lost on is the economy and these, you know, kitchen table issues that Americans sit around the dinner table talking about every night. You know, and I don't think that --

HILL: Yes, but sometimes --

BOOTHE: I think all the candidates have done is express their viewpoint on the issue. It's consistent with what they have said on same-sex marriage throughout their careers.

HARLOW: Marc, take a look at these poll numbers.

HILL: Sometimes --

HARLOW: The latest CNN-ORC poll conducted in February, what it shows is 63 percent of Americans say that gays and lesbians have a constitutional right to marry and have their marriages recognized by law as valid. That is up from 49 percent in August of 2010.

Do you think the candidates in both parties are looking at these numbers and reacting?

[17:25:13] HILL: Yes. Oh, they absolutely are. I think for a long time, Democrats were in favor of same-sex marriage but couldn't be honest about it because they were doing political calculus, and said it is not wise to. Republicans essentially have been trying to do the same thing right now. They're attempting to move a little bit closer to the center on this issue because they don't want to be left behind.

I mean, kitchen table issues matter, you're right, but oftentimes now, it's two men or two women at the kitchen table together. You can't alienate gay Republican voters, you can't alienate people for whom this is their central issue but they're not going to vote against -- they're not going to vote for someone who doesn't represent their interests or their marriages or their relationships or who they love. So Republicans have to be much more careful about this.

And the other thing Republicans have to be careful about in New Hampshire with regard to your question, Poppy, is they can't move too far to the right and try to out-Republican each other as we saw in 2008. You can't have a Rick Santorum drag everybody to the right and then you get into a general, which is what Mitt Romney had to do, and he was so bloodied from the primary that now when he's going against Barack Obama, he looks disingenuous to slide back to the middle.

So I think this is the challenge they're going to have right now, especially when there's so many people who are so qualified and so willing to run for office.

HARLOW: Guys, thanks very much. We're going to continue this discussion. I wish we had a whole lot more time. Thank you both. I appreciate it.

BOOTHE: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: And now let's switch gears to this, 168 men, women and children were murdered 20 years ago today in Oklahoma City in that bombing. This man knew about the plot, could have stopped it, but didn't. On this anniversary, he is a free man. How? The details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, today marks 20 years since the Oklahoma City bombing. That somber anniversary marked by a beautiful ceremony today, bringing together survivors and relatives of the 168 people killed when that truck bomb exploded outside of the Alfred P. Murrah Building. Nineteen of the victims that day were children, and it remains the deadliest homegrown terror attack in U.S. history.

[17:30:08] The site is now marked by a memorial representing the spirit that helped the city heal in the aftermath, a spirit that former President Bill Clinton referred to today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You have honored the memories of your loved ones. You have inspired us with the power of your renewal. You have reminded us that we should all live by the Oklahoma standard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Of the three men convicted in that attack, one, Timothy McVeigh, was executed. Another sentenced to life in prison. The third man, though, the one who could have stopped all of it, is a free man today. How did that happen?

Gary Tuchman has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's an amazing site. It's six-storey building. And one half of the building is sheared away.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One week after the Oklahoma City bombing and after Timothy McVeigh's arrest, McVeigh's friend Michael Fortier talked to CNN in his hometown of Kingman, Arizona.

MICHAEL FORTIER, FRIEND OF TIMOTHY MCVEIGH: I did not believe that Tim blew up any building in Oklahoma. There is nothing for me to look back on and say, yes, that might have been -- I should have seen it back then. There was nothing like that.

TUCHMAN: Every one of those words, a complete lie. Michael McGuire would soon become Fortier's attorney. They first met shortly after that CNN interview. MICHAEL MCGUIRE, MICHAEL FORTIER'S ATTORNEY: I'll never forget what

he said next. Mr. McGuire, I know all about the whole plan to blow up the building.

TUCHMAN: Timothy McVeigh executed in 2001. Accomplice Terry Nichols in prison for life. Michael Fortier neither of those things. In fact, it's a secret where he is. How is that possible? That a man who admitted to not only knowing about the plan, but admitting casing the Murrah federal building site with McVeigh. He knew how the bomb was built and where the explosive material was purchased.

How is it he is not now in prison? It is to say at the least controversial and complicated.

His lawyer illustrated these charts back in 1995 as Fortier told him what he knew.

MCGUIRE: This diagram here is the actual diagram that Tim drew out on a piece of paper what he called a shape charge.

TUCHMAN (on camera): These are the barrels of explosives?

MCGUIRE: Yes. This is how they would be set inside the truck.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've seen a number of small children being carried bleeding heavily from the safe.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): The bombing remains the heaviest homegrown terrorist attack in U.S. history, 168 people killed including 19 children. Today the site of the Murrah Building is a memorial and museum.

(On camera): Michael Fortier could have taken the information he learned from McVeigh and told authorities and stop the bombing plot in its tracks, but he chose not to do so. And 168 people were murdered.

So what is he doing today? Michael Fortier is a free man.

(Voice-over): Fortier claimed he didn't think McVeigh would actually carry out the bombing plan. He agreed to a plea bargain, testifying against McVeigh and Nichols. He served about 10 and a half years in prison and was released almost a decade ago. Fortier now has a new identity and new hometown because he's in the federal witness protection program. Fortier still occasionally calls his lawyer.

(On camera): Can you tell us where he is living, what his name is?

MCGUIRE: No.

TUCHMAN: But he's still married?

MCGUIRE: Yes.

TUCHMAN: To the same woman?

MCGUIRE: Yes. TUCHMAN: And he has children?

MCGUIRE: Yes.

TUCHMAN: And how many children does he have?

MCGUIRE: Two.

TUCHMAN: And does he live a normal life?

MCGUIRE: No. He'll never be able to live a normal life.

TUCHMAN: I mean, in the witness protection program you're given a new identity. I mean, presumably his neighbors don't know anything about his background?

MCGUIRE: Correct.

TUCHMAN: That's the way it's supposed to work.

MCGUIRE: I probably can't comment on that.

TUCHMAN: But when you say he's not living a normal life, what do you mean by that? Because of the traumas of the past or because of things that happened in the present?

MCGUIRE: The traumas of the past and the risk to him.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Brothers Aaron and Elijah Coverdale were two of the children killed in the Murrah Building's day care center. Their grandmother is Jeanie Coverdale.

JEANNIE COVERDALE, VICTIMS' GRANDMOTHER: It makes me angry to know that he is enjoying life and all those people are dead and we are still suffering.

PRISCILLA SALYERS, BOMBING VICTIM: I had broken ribs, punctured lung and I looked like I'm been beaten with a baseball bat.

TUCHMAN: Priscilla Salyers was in the Murrah Building trapped under the rubble for hours. She, too, has deep anger towards Fortier, but thinks his testimony was important.

SALYERS: Yes, his life is going on, but I feel like in the end, he'll have to face judgment. That's my faith.

TUCHMAN: Fortier was dishonest and self-righteous when he talked to us.

FORTIER: Judge not for you shall be judged.

TUCHMAN: And 20 years later --

(On camera): Does he feel guilt that 168 people are dead and could have stopped it if he said something, and yet he is living this semi- normal life with his family and his children in freedom? MCGUIRE: I think carrying guilt is an understatement.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Gary Tuchman, CNN, Oklahoma City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:35:05] HARLOW: Gary, thank you for that report. We remember all the victims and their families today, 20 years later.

Well, tomorrow marks two years since the deadly bombing at the Boston marathon. The jury in the case of the convicted bomber reconvenes this week to decide his fate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, tomorrow, some 30,000 athletes from all over the world will compete in the 119th Boston marathon. Hanging over the race, though, this year the fate of the man convicted of the horrific 2013 bombings at the finish line. Beginning Tuesday a jury will start to weigh whether Dzhokar Tsarnaev should live or die for his crimes.

Here's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The life or death fate of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev rests solely with 12 jurors. So what do they think about the death penalty? Take the juror identified as number 138, a white man who works for the water department, he said during questioning, "Death can sometimes seem like an easy way out. It can go both ways, I guess." And then there's juror number 395, executive assistant for a law firm who says, "I always thought I was against it, but once you think about it, things change."

Meg Penrose is a constitutional law professor who just tried death penalty cases, she has also run in the Boston marathon. Penrose says, "Some crimes are so heinous, the evidence so compelling, it could change a juror's view on the death penalty."

[17:40:02] MEG PENROSE, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR: Some of these jurors seem to have a slightly different or more open view towards saying they might not be in favor of the death penalty under ordinary circumstances, but that they were open in this case to consider death as an adequate penalty.

CARROLL: It might be difficult for juror number 229, a homemaker. When asked about the death penalty she said, "If you had asked me this question 20 years ago, I would have said definitely not." But then she told the court having children has changed her views. Juror number 83, an unemployed man in his 30s is more firm saying, "I think the death penalty is valid in terms of being a good punishment."

Of course, though, these opinions were given by the jury before the prosecution and defense laid out their cases during the trial before they heard all the evidence and listen to the emotional testimony from victims before seeing the graphic pictures while the devastation displayed in court.

ROBERT DUNHAM, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE DEATH PENALTY INFORMATION CENTRE: Well, you instruct them that they are to base their judgment on the evidence that's in front of them, and exclusively on the evidence that's in front of them, and they take what they know with them, and they take their views about the penalty with them regardless of what the cause of those views are.

CARROLL: In the end, if the jurors decide on the death penalty it must be unanimous. They will have the evidence and their conscience as their guide.

Jason Carroll, CNN New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Jason, thank you for that.

Well, the judge in this trial has asked those jurors not to attend the marathon tomorrow and avoid any prejudice. Meanwhile, police continue to ramp up security for the big race. Officials say they spend six months of the year preparing.

Joining me now, CNN national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem. She's a former assistant secretary of Homeland Security. She's written this really interesting op-ed, you can go to CNN.com to see it, it's called what really kept Boston strong.

Thanks for being with us, Juliette. I appreciate it.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: You wrote a number of different points in here that you take through, but you also said this, that officials are still learning from what happened that day. What do you think they've learned so far two years later that is most important?

KAYYEM: Well, my point was essentially that we learned from these sort of disasters and crises for years on end, that the stories are always being written and rewritten, Oklahoma City, the BP oil spill, even 9/11, of course. And in the Boston marathon case, there's a couple of issues that are just different than they were two years ago. One is clearly that the firefight in Watertown was chaotic.

It was -- it was not great law enforcement, and to be honest, we are very lucky there was not a lot of friendly fire. So we have to learn from that, and that's the reason why we look back at these incidences and learn from them.

And I think the other issue that does not get enough play is how important family unification at the moment that the bombs went off and the priorities that the Boston Police, the Red Cross, other institutions put into getting runners who didn't have phones, right, most of them don't have phones, with family members who have no idea where they were, you know, in that process, in that run, getting them together, because once you know you're OK, your family's OK, you leave the site, you relieve public safety resources to focus on those that are harmed.

And so that quick decision to just get runners to their families within an hour, hour and a half, really went far and that's -- we have a lot to learn from that for other crises.

HARLOW: You've also said that you think that this really proves that our court system can handle terrorism trials, that that is an important takeaway.

KAYYEM: It really is. I mean, I remember two years ago, just at this time, a lot of people were coming out, including many senators, saying, well, the Tsarnaev brothers should not be put in a criminal court, they should be put in a military court or some specialized terrorism court. It's been a recurring debate with the national security circles. It is just absolutely not true. Our criminal justice system, as we saw it in Oklahoma City, in the story that you just had a couple of minutes ago, to the Boston marathon, that our criminal justice system can handle these kinds of cases against terrorists, that they actually make the cases less sort of ideological, less mystical, than taking maybe them off to a military tribunal.

And this is just a basic case, when people ask me about the case, I say it's just like, you know, prosecutor brought the case, defense attorneys challenge them.

HARLOW: Right.

KAYYEM: A jury rendered a verdict. It's pretty basic.

HARLOW: And before I let you go, Juliette, Boston strong, that has been quite a phrase for the people of Boston. For you, it's not just about Boston strong.

KAYYEM: No, I think just -- I think Boston strong is a great term that unified our city, but it sort of leaves people with this feeling that all you have to do is be tough and puritan, like so many of us here in Boston are, you know, survive those tough winters. Actually Boston strong has more to do with the planning and the response and the preparedness and run into saving so many people. Remember, three people tragically died at the Boston marathon.

HARLOW: Yes.

[17:45:05] KAYYEM: But hundreds were saved in the hospitals. And that's because of the planning and the procedures and the first responders.

HARLOW: That's true. I remember being at the first press briefing outside of MassGeneral that night and the incredible work that all of those surgeons and those trauma doctors did that night and for the months and months ahead.

Juliette Kayyem, thanks so much. Enjoy the marathon tomorrow. I appreciate it.

Coming up next, I'm going to be joined by two incredible young women.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

HARLOW: You're looking at Mary Danielle there and also Healthier Abbott, who survived the marathon bombing. They're going to talk to us live after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Each year, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta selects six CNN viewers to join his Fit Nation team. Meet one of them, Erica Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ready, stand.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Fit Nation athlete, Erica Moore, her size was never a concern.

ERICA MOORE, FIT NATION ATHLETE: I have a lot of self-confidence. I have never been ashamed of my body or I'm not ashamed of my -- of my weight.

GUPTA: But it was her first experience with swing dancing, which left her out of breath after just one song. She says that was a wakeup call.

MOORE: It was the first time I felt that like this body was preventing me from doing something and I didn't like that feeling.

GUPTA: Determined to get in shape, Moore joined our Fit Nation team back in January, ready to make a permanent change.

[17:50:04] (On camera): You're here. This is new. You meet your teammates. You're starting this incredible journey. Dark moments at all? Are you worried? Are you concerned -- ?

MOORE: I'm not. I feel so positive and hopeful. Honestly. I think like coming here has helped me realize that it's not some big dark unknown. It's a lot of little logical steps that add up to make big change.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: As the convicted Boston marathon bomber waits to learn whether he will die for his crimes or spend the rest of his life in jail, two survivors of this attack are speaking out, one of them Mary Daniel who was standing at the finish line cheering on the runners when the bombs exploded. Her heart stopped twice as doctors tried to save her life. Ultimately she'd lose one of her legs but not the will to survive.

MARY DANIELS, BOSTON MARATHON BOMBING SURVIVOR: No matter what happened, I chose enthusiasm, and no matter what happened to keep going strong.

HARLOW (on camera): You said don't call me a victim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I'm a survivor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: A survivor, indeed. Another survivor, Heather Abbott, was walking into a restaurant right near that finish line when the second bomb exploded. Her left leg was amputated one week later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Marathon Monday. What does it mean to you now?

HEATHER ABBOTT, BOSTON MARATHON BOMBING SURVIVOR: It's sort of a celebration, I think for me, of all I've been able to accomplish this year, and a time to start new memories.

HARLOW: Are you angry?

ABBOTT: You know, I'm not angry and I don't know if that's just an emotion that I have yet to feel, or if I will never feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Both Mary and Heather join me now.

Guys, it is so great to see you. When I saw your shot in the commercial break, I was just beaming because you all -- you both look so wonderful, and I've been talking to you and you're so happy and you've moved forward so much. Thank you for being here.

And let me begin with you, Mary. When you heard the guilty verdict come down, you said, quote, "This feels like closure, relief, evil did not win that day."

How you moving forward, Mary?

DANIEL: I'm doing really wonderfully, Poppy. Actually, you don't even understand, even the guilty verdict that just came out lately, I felt this a new me, I feel so energetic, vitalized. And I'm ready to take on the world, actually.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Ready to take on the world. I like the sound of that. Heather, you're doing -- you're doing your part in that. You just came from a huge gathering of 400 people for your foundation that officially launched today. Tell me about it.

ABBOTT: I did. It was terrific. The foundation is called the Heather Abbott Foundation, and we will be giving prosthetic devices to limb loss victims of trauma. So we did a great job today. It think we raised, raise some money in. We had a big turnout and really excited to be launching the foundation. HARLOW: You know, it was just two years ago that you went through

this, something I think a lot of people would have a very hard time just getting through, yet alone accomplishing what both of you have.

You said, Heather, to me, you're not angry, but watching this trial progress, and the evidence that has come out from it, how tough has it been?

It's been tough. You know, it was more difficult than I had expected it to be. More emotional to have to go back to that day over and over again. Listening to different testimony. But very glad that it's coming toward closure now.

HARLOW: Mary, what about for you? Because recently, you talked about, you know, the guilty verdict, then you talked about the family of Martin Richard, the 8-year-old - the 8-year-old little boy who was killed in all of this. They wrote an op-ed in the "Boston Globe" this week saying that they did not want to see the death penalty for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev because they don't want this drawn out over years and years and years of appeal. They want the focus to be on the survivors, right? And the families.

For you, Mary, what is justice ultimately?

DANIEL: Well, I'm against death penalty, poppy, for many reasons. One of them being for being pro-life and also I don't believe because -- I believe in the justice and also justice equality, and I don't believe the death penalty would bring that, especially being in the state of Massachusetts where the death penalty is illegal.

We have so many who have lost their lives in the neighborhoods and those people are actually in jail and the victims would not see that day. So ultimately, you're going to have to ask yourself, what about those lives that were lost? I mean, how do you -- which lives are more important? How do you compare that?

HARLOW: Heather, what about for you?

ABBOTT: For me, I have to say, I really don't feel strongly one way or the other. And I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it because it doesn't really matter to me. Regardless of what happens, you know, I'm not going to get my leg back, and the people who lost their loved ones aren't going to get those people back either.

HARLOW: Yes.

ABBOTT: So I think -- I understand the Richards' statement and I think it will be nice to be able to move on once it's finished.

HARLOW: One thing -- I don't know if we have video that we can show, we might. But when I first spent time with you, Heather, you put on, like, four-inch high heels. You showed me how you were walking in your high heels on your prosthetics which was just incredible, but it's deeper than that. It's about really being yourself and wanting to wear the shoes you used to wear. Let me start with you Heather, and then to you, Mary. What do you

want the world to think tomorrow as they watch the Boston marathon, Heather?

ABBOTT: I want them to see how resilient the city has been. How that day back in 2013 didn't ruin the Boston marathon for Americans and people all over the world. And I want them to remember the survivors and the people that were lost that day, and concentrate on the good things that the survivors have done, you know, including my foundation.